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  • #16
    Originally posted by LJ Jubner View Post
    When I said Sea -Tac I meant Seattle and Tacoma Shelton/Oly is certainly also in that group
    ah i see.
    "When a ball dreams, it dreams it is a frisbee."

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    • #17
      See you say 2750 went out but besides pro getting cash you have scrip out at a 1-1 rate but if the am pot is 1500 let's say them you should either give out 3000 in scrip and mark the discs up double or give out 1500 and give discs at cost. Also the discs we had to chose from granted were new discs they were old tourney stamps sorry if I as a player don't want to throw discs from a Spokane tourney from 2009 that i never went to. Also they were marked up a couple more than most clubs. Hey I'm not an idiot or unreasonable. I am however a disc golfer who sees a company the wss in 2011 have fewer tournaments and pay out more than 2012. I'm super happy that there was more events don't get me wrong Jub did a lot to get that happening but it's still the players that got screwed. I agree mr Anderson it is painfull to look at the numbers also I do agree that the state series did a horrible job at getting sponsors. I believe maybe rideout and the crew set the bar too high for Jub and the wss but isn't it his job to be better than the previous year.
      "Procrastination is like masturbation, at first it feels good but, after awhile you realize your just screwing yourself!".
      -K Gas

      Comment


      • #18
        Is Kyle an idiot or just unreasonable?

        Kyle, all of your points were discussed and decided upon in the group. It's too bad you took your responsibility there so lightly.

        Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
        See you say 2750 went out but besides pro getting cash you have scrip out at a 1-1 rate but if the am pot is 1500 let's say them you should either give out 3000 in scrip and mark the discs up double or give out 1500 and give discs at cost.
        This make absolutely no sense. It does seem Kyle you have not looked as closely at the numbers because if you had you would know the exact numbers. You do raise an interesting point, by doubling the value of the total purse you make the series look inflated. The operative term there is look not actually doubled but it sure looks like it on paper. If we did the opposite and valued the prizes at cost it would make the series look smaller on paper.
        Just so you know Bob bid $1750 and paid out a little more then $2000 so that's $250 back into the series

        Series store
        Now, if the series had it's own store we would have more room to work. But it has two big drawbacks
        It only comes out once a year
        the logistics of said inventory, Storage,transportation and transparency

        Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
        Also the discs we had to chose from granted were new discs they were old tourney stamps sorry if I as a player don't want to throw discs from a Spokane tourney from 2009 that i never went to. Also they were marked up a couple more than most clubs.
        So what your saying is the art is more important. Correct me if I am wrong but don't we throw discs not art?


        Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
        Hey I'm not an idiot or unreasonable. I am however a disc golfer who sees a company the wss in 2011 have fewer tournaments and pay out more than 2012.
        The difference between the two years is the number of qualifiers and attendees not how many events or the funds raised. What you are really saying is the players who finished 6-12 should not get anything for their efforts it should have all gone to you!

        Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
        I'm super happy that there was more events don't get me wrong Jub did a lot to get that happening but it's still the players that got screwed.
        Kyle did you know that the word "but" hates the previous sentence


        Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
        I agree mr Anderson it is painful to look at the numbers
        Nice try, I believe John meant he painstakingly made sure the numbers added up no matter what the results Transparency is more important.

        Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
        I do agree that the state series did a horrible job at getting sponsors. I believe maybe rideout and the crew set the bar too high for Jub
        In the beginning I was not sure if we would even have a series but with the help of Bob, Mark, Kris and Kenny we were able to offer a viable set of events
        Mike was more of a one man show so it's easier to get things done.

        Sponsorship Our goal was to not compete with the events for funding like club/event raffles
        We did not force them into a series basket toss qualifier.
        We did not force them into buying series CFR's
        If we had forced these Paving the Way would not have donated $800 toward the paving of the lot at Shelton Springs. So Yes the series fundraising was slow at best but it was a huge benefit to the clubs and their events and projects

        Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
        and the wss but isn't it his job to be better than the previous year.
        It is our goal to try and make the series better. Should I list all the things we did get accomplished?
        12 events, 1000 participants, 115 qualifiers and 57 attendees 54 of which got to chose their payout.
        How about the guidelines that were designed with the protection of the players and consistency between events.
        How about the biding process for all series purchase's not the cronyism of old.
        rewindb.com

        Comment


        • #19
          Nice try, I believe John meant he painstakingly made sure the numbers added up no matter what the results Transparency is more important.



          This ^^^. It took a few phone conversations, emails, and building new spreadsheets from scratch, but the numbers eventually worked out. By the end Jub might have been annoyed with me but I like to see that a(b+c) = ab + ac.

          I have a hard time listening to such harsh criticism of the 2012 WSS. Every issue that Kyle is complaining about was discussed and voted on by a group of volunteers before the season even started. Also the same explanation was given to Kyle a few of months ago through less public channels.

          Do I 100% agree with everything that was decided upon by the WSS group? ...nope. Am I willing to take on the responsibility that Jub has volunteered for? ....nope. I am willing to give constructive criticism to those that listen and will not take offense if they decide not to take my advice... yes. I appreciate the effort that Jub has given to the WSS.

          The WSS will always be evolving into something different and probably will never make everyone 100% happy. I'm excited for the 2013 season and look forward to seeing how the WSS will turn out.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mr. Anderson View Post
            Nice try, I believe John meant he painstakingly made sure the numbers added up no matter what the results Transparency is more important.



            This ^^^. It took a few phone conversations, emails, and building new spreadsheets from scratch, but the numbers eventually worked out. By the end Jub might have been annoyed with me but I like to see that a(b+c) = ab + ac.

            I have a hard time listening to such harsh criticism of the 2012 WSS. Every issue that Kyle is complaining about was discussed and voted on by a group of volunteers before the season even started. Also the same explanation was given to Kyle a few of months ago through less public channels.

            Do I 100% agree with everything that was decided upon by the WSS group? ...nope. Am I willing to take on the responsibility that Jub has volunteered for? ....nope. I am willing to give constructive criticism to those that listen and will not take offense if they decide not to take my advice... yes. I appreciate the effort that Jub has given to the WSS.

            The WSS will always be evolving into something different and probably will never make everyone 100% happy. I'm excited for the 2013 season and look forward to seeing how the WSS will turn out.
            Well said.

            Moving on...
            Board Member of the West Sound Disc Golf Association
            Like us on Facebook! Facebook.com/WSDGA

            Comment


            • #21
              I agree with you John I was told just like Jub had to take every sentence out and dissect everything into a bash of me. Hey and this is a forum where you get to express your thoughts and ideas willingly and freely and hopefully find common ground. I may be somewhat alone in my thoughts and ideas but again I may have been the only person besides my roommate Matt to play in most events the past two years for the WSS and I will not be attempting to play that circuit which Matt won't either. Again when you break it down from this one players perspective 3rd in 2011 got a trophy 230 in scrip an ironman shirt. Also first in biggest divisions got a basket. 1st in 2012 got no trophy 120 in scrip a 3 inch patch and no basket. That is pure and simple what me as a player playing in the wss sees. But I just happen to see behind the curtain so I'm the asshole. No I am a guy who drove his ass around this state and just want a little more recognition than a patch or a pencil. I wear my 2011 ironman shirt with pride knowing that there were only 10 or so of us that made it to all 6 events. I as a player have known and I understand everything your all saying but it's time for you all to see it from my eyes in the open not in backroom conversations. As a player I'm disappointed in the series. As a person who got to be inside the series I am disappointed in myself and Jub ad bob. Jub your an arrogant prick who probably took the time to maticulosly go through every sentence just like you will with this one. And bob well the only thing you did was not have new plastic to offer me which I do like to throw art but art which I have been or played in.
              "Procrastination is like masturbation, at first it feels good but, after awhile you realize your just screwing yourself!".
              -K Gas

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
                But I just happen to see behind the curtain so I'm the asshole. No I am a guy who drove his ass around this state and just want a little more recognition than a patch or a pencil. I wear my 2011 ironman shirt with pride knowing that there were only 10 or so of us that made it to all 6 events. I as a player have known and I understand everything your all saying but it's time for you all to see it from my eyes in the open not in backroom conversations.
                Kyle,
                All of us can see behind the curtain...not all of us have to respond the way you have.

                What more recognition do you want? Isn't that what your ironman shirt is for? Did you get a trophy? If you were to get twice as much scrip would you feel more "recognized"?

                It sounds like the payout structure was explained up front, do you feel that it wasn't? If so, then shame on them for pulling a bait and switch. But either way, the most effective thing you can do NOW is shop with your feet. Others will shop with theirs... If the series becomes a success this year, then you may have to face the reality you are actually in the minority. If it flops, you can feel vindicated that everyone else saw it the same way as you...
                I am sure the WSS coordinators have and will continue to take CONSTRUCTIVE criticism on the best way to run the series. At this point I think they are confident to move forward and believe their transparency so far will net them plenty of faithful players to the 2013 series.
                Board Member of the West Sound Disc Golf Association
                Like us on Facebook! Facebook.com/WSDGA

                Comment


                • #23
                  This will be an interesting reply. 12 years ago I was you Kyle, tilting at wind mills. So it seems fitting I am getting back some of what I dished out. There is a word that means that but I can't think of it right now.
                  Anyway over those 12 years I have paid attention to what worked and what didn't. Tried a lot of things on my own. The INWS was great staring point to build from and the groups attention to detail makes us stronger. Yes I mean you John.
                  rewindb.com

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Kyle, as an outsider to this conversation (who has admittedly inserted himself into) here is my perspective.

                    These things you have said are probably helpful to the conversation. Maybe they are true, maybe they are not everyone is entitled to their opinion.
                    *The money collected and the scrip dispersed does not add up.
                    *I do agree that the state series did a horrible job at getting sponsors
                    *this is a forum where you get to express your thoughts and ideas willingly and freely and hopefully find common ground
                    *As a player I'm disappointed in the series

                    Thanks for adding these comments to the conversation. It appears the numbers posted in this thread are a direct result of your concerns.

                    These comments below however are not helpful, there might be some truth buried within them but the method is in poor taste.
                    *I really hope it's not a joke like last year
                    *everyone got so screwed last year
                    *oblivious to the dibbachory that has become the wss
                    *But I just happen to see behind the curtain so I'm the asshole
                    *Jub your an arrogant prick
                    *the only thing you did was not have new plastic to offer me
                    Board Member of the West Sound Disc Golf Association
                    Like us on Facebook! Facebook.com/WSDGA

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      .

                      Kyle, I understand some of your frustrations, but often with progress comes change. In my opinion, you, as a player that spent both the time and money to travel to so many series events, have earned the right to voice your opinion. You have sounded off loud and clear (more than once), and many players who were unaware of these details are now in-the-know. Please allow the series to move on and either choose to be an active member of the series organizers or be a peaceful bystander. There were many players that did not like the actions I took as series coordinator (2010 & 2011), but if they all voiced their feelings & opinions in the same manner you currently are – you personally may have chosen differently and not given the series a chance, due to the opinions of others, and you wouldn’t have the good experience you refer back to in 2011 (BTW – thanks for liking what I helped organize).


                      Kyle, I’m not sure about these baskets you’re talking about as 2011 payout. I remember the basket for the basket toss – donated by Mandos and won by me (aaah yeah!), but I don’t think any others were given away.


                      I think it’s fantastic to see the series continue to grow. I have always been a fan of the series banking enough capital to be completely self-reliant. I’m stoked to see so many players happy to both - have a series they compete in & have a rebuilt confidence in their series’ longevity (which was greatly shaken in early 2009).


                      Through all its ups & downs-

                      Long Live the Washington State Series!!!!



                      Mike Rideout - Peaceful Bystander


                      .
                      Last edited by Rideout; March 21st, 2013, 02:00 AM.
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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Rideout View Post
                        .

                        Kyle, Iím not sure about these baskets youíre talking about as 2011 payout. I remember the basket for the basket toss Ė donated by Mandos and won by me (aaah yeah!), but I donít think any others were given away.
                        .

                        I don't know if this will help, but a guy from my club won 1st place (Intermediate) at the series finals at 4 mounds - Mo - and he WAS awarded a basket. He DIDN'T qualify for the WSS, but that was the TOURNAMENT prize. I think that was 2010, but it could have been 2011... a lot of the years have started to blend together, sorry. Hopefully the fact that I'm saying it was at 4 Mounds will help those of you with better memories to know which finals that was.
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                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
                          I agree with you John I was told just like Jub had to take every sentence out and dissect everything into a bash of me. Hey and this is a forum where you get to express your thoughts and ideas willingly and freely and hopefully find common ground. I may be somewhat alone in my thoughts and ideas but again I may have been the only person besides my roommate Matt to play in most events the past two years for the WSS and I will not be attempting to play that circuit which Matt won't either. Again when you break it down from this one players perspective 3rd in 2011 got a trophy 230 in scrip an ironman shirt. Also first in biggest divisions got a basket. 1st in 2012 got no trophy 120 in scrip a 3 inch patch and no basket. That is pure and simple what me as a player playing in the wss sees. But I just happen to see behind the curtain so I'm the asshole. No I am a guy who drove his ass around this state and just want a little more recognition than a patch or a pencil. I wear my 2011 ironman shirt with pride knowing that there were only 10 or so of us that made it to all 6 events. I as a player have known and I understand everything your all saying but it's time for you all to see it from my eyes in the open not in backroom conversations. As a player I'm disappointed in the series. As a person who got to be inside the series I am disappointed in myself and Jub ad bob. Jub your an arrogant prick who probably took the time to maticulosly go through every sentence just like you will with this one. And bob well the only thing you did was not have new plastic to offer me which I do like to throw art but art which I have been or played in.
                          Well Said Kyle. Been following this from the beginning and I really see all of your points. The biggest thing to me is that a series payout that is done at a 1:1 ratio, you are retaxing ams that have been taxed all year long in every tournament they've played. They are deserving of having their money's be multiplied, not divided again.. ESPECIALLY with old picked over plastic stashes. Greedy vending needs to stop. Keep waking up the sheep Kyle.
                          Hopefully last year was a growing year for the series, hence the reason the money had t go where it did. It does make sense that people shouldn't have to float their own money out to run a series, which they actually have to do. So lets give growth a chance and see what happens this year..
                          Last edited by Yoduh; March 21st, 2013, 09:27 AM.
                          Relax and enjoy your hair
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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Danni View Post
                            I don't know if this will help, but a guy from my club won 1st place (Intermediate) at the series finals at 4 mounds - Mo - and he WAS awarded a basket. He DIDN'T qualify for the WSS, but that was the TOURNAMENT prize. I think that was 2010, but it could have been 2011... a lot of the years have started to blend together, sorry. Hopefully the fact that I'm saying it was at 4 Mounds will help those of you with better memories to know which finals that was.
                            Yes I remember that year, it was 2010. I love giving away baskets to the divisions that have more than 16 players. I was supposed to provide the Series payout as well as the Tournament payout that year. However the Series payout was paid out to Ams in the form of cash. This was decided after I had purchased extra discs for the Series payout.

                            This year the Lilac City Open will be awarding an Innova Sport basket to the winner of the Advanced Men's division and a Sport or Traveler basket to the winner of the Intermediate Men's Division (the basket type will depend on the amount of entries in the division).

                            The LCO raffle this year already has about $1500 worth of schwag to give away and that doesn't include the Innova Mini Basket, the Innova Traveler Basket, the Innova Sport Basket and the Innova Pro Basket that will be included in the raffle.

                            I am also donating an Innova Sport basket to the Washington State Series to use as a fundraiser however the leadership sees fit.

                            I am confident that the WSS will be better this year and I am a strong believer in voting with your feet.
                            Fly free and straight to the pin!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Yoduh View Post
                              Well Said Kyle. Been following this from the beginning and I really see all of your points. The biggest thing to me is that a series payout that is done at a 1:1 ratio, you are retaxing ams that have been taxed all year long in every tournament they've played. They are deserving of having their money's be multiplied, not divided again.. ESPECIALLY with old picked over plastic stashes. Greedy vending needs to stop. Keep waking up the sheep Kyle.
                              Hopefully last year was a growing year for the series, hence the reason the money had t go where it did. It does make sense that people shouldn't have to float their own money out to run a series, which they actually have to do. So lets give growth a chance and see what happens this year..
                              I do not understand how 1:1 ratio of script payout = taxing. Do you expect vendors to supply the scrip at cost? Why would any vendor choose to do that? (especially when they had to pay for the responsibility) The players put X dollars into the series and they got X out, seems fair. (They actually got more than X but they should not feel that they deserve 2X or 3X the players should appreciate any personal gain they recieve)

                              Non-Profit clubs can choose to do scrip at cost but then their is less money to improve courses, tournaments, promote the sport etc. etc. if this is the case organizers are volunteering their time, money, and effort just so that individual players get more stuff. I do not believe this is sustainable plan to growing disc golf.

                              No one should feel they are entitled to reap the benefit of volunteer effort and donations. All that I am hearing is "The 2012 WSS sucked because I didn't get a big enough prize."
                              Last edited by Mr. Anderson; March 21st, 2013, 02:55 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by kylesmart View Post
                                And bob well the only thing you did was not have new plastic to offer me which I do like to throw art but art which I have been or played in.
                                Kyle, I think that it is time to put these issues to rest and that you allow the WSS to move forward as opposed to living in the past. I can sense your anger with me and I'm not sure why. Is it truly because I awarded schwag with older custom hot stamps? Be truthful now. Every disc given out was brand new, never been thrown and some of it was stuff you can't purchase at a retail outlet.

                                I gave the WSS 13.33% of the Am Purse for the right to redeem WSS script. You had the opportunity to submit a bid yourself but opted not to do so. I gave freely of my time to officiate and do scores at your tournament. I gave out one disc per division as a DFL award, not to mention what I passed out to the kids that attended your event. I did these things out of love for the sport. You seem to think that I'm some profiteer that rapes and plunders disc golfers across the state. Nothing could be further from the truth, the INWS Store does not pocket profits from tournaments, it turns that profit around and gives it back to the disc golf community as added cash to the Pro purses, added schwag to the Am purses, free lunches and or dinners for the players, a keg of beer at the awards, or a live band for the players party on Saturday night.

                                I offer the flag of peace to you and desire that we go forward with forgiveness and understanding for all involved.
                                Last edited by Wobbly Bob; March 21st, 2013, 12:17 PM.
                                Fly free and straight to the pin!

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