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  • Hole 10 was way better than 6. Much more precision required to throw the shot and more risk reward when choosing to go for it or lay up.
    Not sure the proposed hole is anywhere close to how good original 10 is but I just need to face the fact that Downrinver is becoming watered down but somehow people think we are keeping the same course..
    Relax and enjoy your hair
    TNT Yardworks.com

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Yoduh View Post
      Not sure the proposed hole is anywhere close to how good original 10 is but I just need to face the fact that Downrinver is becoming watered down but somehow people think we are keeping the same course..
      No one is saying that it is the same course. Its just one that is nearly free of erosion issues and less safety concerns while maintaining most of the holes and the same layout.

      I also disagree with it being watered down since some holes are being made easier and some are being made harder.
      We're at our best when it's from our hips

      Comment


      • For me, I guess the values between old 6 and 10 are debatable, but only from my own personal preferences. For me, both holes were always a forehand skip (RH), barring ground conditions. 6 was shorter with a sharper angle of attack, giving the chance at a skip ace (never got one, hit the basket a few times), but always with a higher risk of sailing past the basket and over the bank for a tough putt back, the loss of a disc, or an OB in tournament play. 10 provided a softer angle of contact to the ground, a more even surface and a greater distance to the basket allowing the disc to scoot along the road instead of pop up, making it a better chance at a skip deuce with a safer run at par if the drive came up short. Shooting for a deuce on 10 and missing the mark usually meant par, but shooting for an ace on 6 and missing could also wind up par. That would seem like a greater risk:reward ratio to me and, overall, I had more discs over the edge on 6 than on 10, but I had more deuces on 6 than 10.

        Still, the reality is, 6 is gone and it's not coming back and the former 10, now 8, has to change.

        Parks is right that the downhill shot should be preserved, but Yoduh is also right that the officially proposed pin placement would soften the hole just for the sake of keeping the elevated shot. I think pushing the pin back and farther to the left not only offers a more challenging hole in both distance and approach, but also directs play up the old #8 fairway and not up the soon to be old #7 tee, resulting in less chance of play crossing between 7 and 8, providing the most safety while still providing a challenging hole.

        That's my nickel's worth.
        "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Burge View Post
          For me, I guess the values between old 6 and 10 are debatable, but only from my own personal preferences. For me, both holes were always a forehand skip (RH), barring ground conditions. 6 was shorter with a sharper angle of attack, giving the chance at a skip ace (never got one, hit the basket a few times), but always with a higher risk of sailing past the basket and over the bank for a tough putt back, the loss of a disc, or an OB in tournament play. 10 provided a softer angle of contact to the ground, a more even surface and a greater distance to the basket allowing the disc to scoot along the road instead of pop up, making it a better chance at a skip deuce with a safer run at par if the drive came up short. Shooting for a deuce on 10 and missing the mark usually meant par, but shooting for an ace on 6 and missing could also wind up par. That would seem like a greater risk:reward ratio to me and, overall, I had more discs over the edge on 6 than on 10, but I had more deuces on 6 than 10.
          You're comparing apples to oranges. You're talking about running for aces on 6 which is a great way to throw into the river and take a bogey. That risk/reward is more risk than reward in tournament play. Most of the time, running for an ace means you either need an ace (last hole of play, or you're so far out of the cash in the last round that you need to hit the ace pot to take something home) or you are accepting an unnecessary risk.

          There are certainly holes where the ace run has a low risk and a high reward. RHFH shots on both holes 3 at DR and 17 at HB in the right position are good examples because you don't lose your chance at birdie or par if you mess up your shot. Hole 6 at DR was not like this.
          We're at our best when it's from our hips

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Parks View Post
            I also disagree with it being watered down since some holes are being made easier and some are being made harder.
            I think the new changes in the last month DEFINITELY water down the course.

            2 is much easier simply because of the distance and angle.
            3 is outrageously easier, shorter with less risk and more reward.
            15 seems easier to me... 2's and 3's galore... no real risk shot.

            14 is the only hole that may have gotten tougher. Sadly, I would contend that it is a contrived righty thumber hole now... which we already have all over the course.

            Hell, every hole that got changed is an easier righty thumber now...


            It's quite possible that my perception is skewed... I am not the most experienced player.
            I just wanna get better scores by improving my game, not by playing an easier course.
            When a ball dreams, it dreams it's a Frisbee.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jshrack View Post
              I think the new changes in the last month DEFINITELY water down the course.

              2 is much easier simply because of the distance and angle.
              3 is outrageously easier, shorter with less risk and more reward.
              15 seems easier to me... 2's and 3's galore... no real risk shot.

              14 is the only hole that may have gotten tougher. Sadly, I would contend that it is a contrived righty thumber hole now... which we already have all over the course.

              Hell, every hole that got changed is an easier righty thumber now...


              It's quite possible that my perception is skewed... I am not the most experienced player.
              I just wanna get better scores by improving my game, not by playing an easier course.
              I agree with you on all those.

              Hole 2 was never difficult since it was wide open, it was basically just a question of whether you could throw 400+ feet or not. So I don't think there's any real loss there. The teepad isn't where its supposed to be, but that wouldn't change the difficulty of the hole.

              Hole 3 will be tougher, and more of an uphill shot (which we need at DR) once the pin is moved up the hill. It will be out of thumber range for anyone without a beastly arm, and be a more challenging and less lucky green.

              Hole 14 is rather silly right now, but that's because the pin isn't where it was supposed to be (25 feet to the right, a little deeper). It should be a much better all around shot.

              Hole 15 is going to use 2's old teepad, which makes it longer and harder, and also opens up some sneakier RHBH routes to the right of the close tree.

              Hole 7 will probably have about the same scoring average, but it will be a little trickier to play it safe.

              Hole 8 will be almost half a stroke harder because the tee will be pushed back and to the left quite a bit, which is nice because that will make it a true par 4 instead of the current par 3.5. If you look at the lines through the fairway from this angle, they are also less lucky.

              So you've seen the changes that have watered down the course a little, but you haven't seen the changes that will counter those with harder holes yet. Its just that 2, 3, and 15 were the worst offenders for erosion issues so they were done first.
              We're at our best when it's from our hips

              Comment


              • THANK YOU!!!

                I really appreciate you passing on this info.
                When a ball dreams, it dreams it's a Frisbee.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Parks View Post
                  I agree with you on all those.

                  Hole 2 was never difficult since it was wide open, it was basically just a question of whether you could throw 400+ feet or not. So I don't think there's any real loss there. The teepad isn't where its supposed to be, but that wouldn't change the difficulty of the hole.

                  Hole 3 will be tougher, and more of an uphill shot (which we need at DR) once the pin is moved up the hill. It will be out of thumber range for anyone without a beastly arm, and be a more challenging and less lucky green.

                  Hole 14 is rather silly right now, but that's because the pin isn't where it was supposed to be (25 feet to the right, a little deeper). It should be a much better all around shot.

                  Hole 15 is going to use 2's old teepad, which makes it longer and harder, and also opens up some sneakier RHBH routes to the right of the close tree.

                  Hole 7 will probably have about the same scoring average, but it will be a little trickier to play it safe.

                  Hole 8 will be almost half a stroke harder because the tee will be pushed back and to the left quite a bit, which is nice because that will make it a true par 4 instead of the current par 3.5. If you look at the lines through the fairway from this angle, they are also less lucky.

                  So you've seen the changes that have watered down the course a little, but you haven't seen the changes that will counter those with harder holes yet. Its just that 2, 3, and 15 were the worst offenders for erosion issues so they were done first.
                  So hole 14's pin is in the wrong placement? I'm wondering how we managed to misplace 14's pin and 2's teepad when were were at a SDGA work party with two board members present. Or do you mean old 14?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Parks View Post
                    You're comparing apples to oranges. You're talking about running for aces on 6 which is a great way to throw into the river and take a bogey. That risk/reward is more risk than reward in tournament play. Most of the time, running for an ace means you either need an ace (last hole of play, or you're so far out of the cash in the last round that you need to hit the ace pot to take something home) or you are accepting an unnecessary risk.

                    There are certainly holes where the ace run has a low risk and a high reward. RHFH shots on both holes 3 at DR and 17 at HB in the right position are good examples because you don't lose your chance at birdie or par if you mess up your shot. Hole 6 at DR was not like this.
                    Bear in mind that I was framing my comparison within the context of my own personal preference and that I said my usual choice of strategy on either hole was a skip shot. Driving straight at the chains is never a good idea, would be a stupid and brash maneuver in tournament play, and would have been laughable on the old 6. Shooting at the ground 20' in front of the basket is what I found worked best for me in most situations on that hole. It was a way to play the hole aggressively and hedge my bets at the same time.

                    In retrospect, I guess it is an apple to an orange: 6 you could bite right into, but 10 you had to peel.
                    "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Parks View Post
                      Hole 2 was never difficult since it was wide open, it was basically just a question of whether you could throw 400+ feet or not. So I don't think there's any real loss there. The teepad isn't where its supposed to be, but that wouldn't change the difficulty of the hole.
                      Once the pin is moved to the new location, the distance will be roughly the same and there is a bit more guarding the basket so I see this hole as slightly more challenging, although it's still the same shot.

                      Hole 3 will be tougher, and more of an uphill shot (which we need at DR) once the pin is moved up the hill. It will be out of thumber range for anyone without a beastly arm, and be a more challenging and less lucky green.
                      I agree. I miss old 12.

                      Hole 14 is rather silly right now, but that's because the pin isn't where it was supposed to be (25 feet to the right, a little deeper). It should be a much better all around shot.
                      Don't you mean 15?

                      Hole 15 is going to use 2's old teepad, which makes it longer and harder, and also opens up some sneakier RHBH routes to the right of the close tree.
                      Don't you mean 12? I guess it is old 15.

                      Hole 7 will probably have about the same scoring average, but it will be a little trickier to play it safe.

                      Hole 8 will be almost half a stroke harder because the tee will be pushed back and to the left quite a bit, which is nice because that will make it a true par 4 instead of the current par 3.5. If you look at the lines through the fairway from this angle, they are also less lucky.
                      I think you've juxtaposed the numbers of the holes here, because otherwise, you're losing me...

                      So, just like Sean asked (and I'm assuming this to be the case because putting 14's pin 25' to the right would place it deep in the schule) 15 is in the wrong place? I would think the temporary target in the same spot for weeks prior and Gordy's confidence in placement would not indicate such a discrepancy and, if true, is most disheartening since Sean J. and I are the ones that went through the effort to put the sucker in the ground.

                      Clarity?
                      "When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." -- Jimi Hendrix

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sean Johnson View Post
                        So hole 14's pin is in the wrong placement? I'm wondering how we managed to misplace 14's pin and 2's teepad when were were at a SDGA work party with two board members present.
                        I meant current 14.
                        We're at our best when it's from our hips

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Burge View Post
                          Bear in mind that I was framing my comparison within the context of my own personal preference and that I said my usual choice of strategy on either hole was a skip shot.
                          Risk/reward is always personal preference. You measure the risk vs. the reward for a particular shot and decide whether to throw it or not. It doesn't, of course, exempt you from taking riskier shots that you are more familiar with over safer shots.

                          Originally posted by Burge View Post
                          Driving straight at the chains is never a good idea, would be a stupid and brash maneuver in tournament play, and would have been laughable on the old 6. Shooting at the ground 20' in front of the basket is what I found worked best for me in most situations on that hole. It was a way to play the hole aggressively and hedge my bets at the same time.
                          There are plenty of non-risky skip shots on old six, 20 feet short is playing it pretty close and approaching where I would try to skip an ace run. If you throw long at all you would be looking at a tough put over the edge.
                          Last edited by Parks; September 14th, 2010, 01:22 PM.
                          We're at our best when it's from our hips

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Burge View Post
                            Don't you mean 15?
                            Nope, 15 is fine. Its the best that could be done without having a significant amount of discs going over the edge. I meant 14.


                            Originally posted by Burge View Post
                            Don't you mean 12? I guess it is old 15.
                            You're right on this one, current 12, old 15. Across the tennis courts.


                            Originally posted by Burge View Post
                            I think you've juxtaposed the numbers of the holes here, because otherwise, you're losing me...
                            Yup, I boobed the numbers.

                            Originally posted by Burge View Post
                            So, just like Sean asked (and I'm assuming this to be the case because putting 14's pin 25' to the right would place it deep in the schule) 15 is in the wrong place? I would think the temporary target in the same spot for weeks prior and Gordy's confidence in placement would not indicate such a discrepancy and, if true, is most disheartening since Sean J. and I are the ones that went through the effort to put the sucker in the ground.

                            Clarity?
                            25 feet to the right and a little further puts 14's pin smack dab in the middle of the fairway in the obvious green location that lets you put from anywhere within 25 feet or so around it. It may not be exactly 25 feet, but you get the point.

                            The temp target kept getting moved because it was in the way of the pin.

                            As for 15, we didn't set anything in stone, and it came out better than I expected. The exact words were something to the effect of "teepad somewhere near the old old tee area, and the pin a little shorter and to the right." The pad is a little close to the trees in front of it for my comfort, but I throw sidearm on the hole anyway so I'm not gonna break my hand if I foot fault.

                            Don't be disheartened. You did some good work out there, and I'm apparently the only one that cares.
                            We're at our best when it's from our hips

                            Comment


                            • Hole 1 needs a new pin placement. old hole one was a really tricky shot that required alot of skill. new hole ones is the easiest birdie in the world(overstated, but have not played many courses with an easier hole 1 that were supposed to be somewhat challenging). Also the green is dangerous to stand on. It needs to be moved permanently to the right and baack. The rock pile could be ob in a tourney. I have been thinking this forever and I know others have figured this out as well. Now that 2 is moved there is no reason not to fix it..
                              Relax and enjoy your hair
                              TNT Yardworks.com

                              Comment


                              • I agree with you on Hole 1. The only thing to take into consideration is shots from 1 and 17 crossing onto each other's fairways. However, I think that can be mostly avoided with a good pin placement.
                                We're at our best when it's from our hips

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