Spoiled disc golfers?

[Rooster]

In other sports entry large fees are paid without any thought of “Cashing”. Why are disc golfers so spoiled? As tournament directors are we responsible for the idea that amateur tournament players receive cash payouts, whether in league play or tournament play. Why should amateurs receive cash at all?

My wife as a runner pays $25-$50 per race. She receives a Tee-Shirt and if she places in the top three places she gets a medal for the achievement.

But, disc golfers expect to receive $2 for every $1 they spend on entry fees just in player’s packs? Then the expectation is a cash payout for the top 50% of finishers.

Amateurs get script or just a trophy.:trophy: Pros get cash! If you as a player want a cash payout, move up to the Open Division.

This is even more frustrating to me in the case of Fundraiser events.

Maybe the time has come to rethink our expectations?

"Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself."
-William Faulkner

[TYVEK]

i have to disagree. the majority of players that i have personally seen in tournaments over my years of disc golf are NOT focusing on players packs and cashing out. from what i see is that the people that DO care about getting 2 bucks for every 1 dollar they spend are way more vocale and complain, so it makes it seem that most people are like that because the people that are only in it for fun are not as vocal.

its no different than most other sports really, every sporting event has some people that are very passionate and feel like they deserve something. there are some "spoiled" disc golfers out there as you say, but they are a pretty small percentage of disc golfers as a whole.

[Vector_2008]

Yes, there are many spoiled players that expect a prize at the end of a tournament, but there are some of us that don't play at the top of the divisions that donate our money to the others.
I'd be happy where only the top 3 in each division got a prize, a disc or two or three. 45% or 50% prize payput does seem excessive, but that what the rules say.

[HarrisonH]

This post is ridiculous to me in so many ways. The first being that, typically, divisions outside of open are paid out in some sort of script rather than cash. That obviously sponsors local businesses, who are happy to contribute to our payouts. This has become so common, that I guess that we are indeed "spoiled" to somewhat expect to be playing for prizes, even as more casual competitors in the sport.

Secondly, the example with your wife makes no sense at all. Running is obviously a more popular "sport" (I'd just call it a "thing to do for exercise") than disc golf, and to be a professional runner is wildly competitive, though if you are a professional I'm sure there is money to be made. Anyway, the point here being your analogy to her paying to run in some event... Most running events I know of are for charity, and beyond that, I'm sure cost way more than running a disc golf tournament due to the volume of participants and the fact that many fees must be paid to the city or parks or whoever maintains where such race is had. So, no, there aren't payouts, because lets be honest, those people would just be running anyway.

Finally, in the case of fundraiser events having payouts. Well, that's just not up to you, and if you want to see a fundraiser tournament with 100% of entry going to charity, then run one. I've personally seen that offering payouts, prizes, or a players packs worth half the entry would likely get twice the participants, because people do like to receive things when they spend money.

So, aside from calling your post ridiculous, I hope I've been polite, and made enough points here to set aside your idea that our community is spoiled when it comes to playing competitive disc golf. I personally think the more sponsorship and cash involved in paying out top OR amateur competitors in the sport will actually help it to grow more. I don't consider myself spoiled for doing so, as I am definitely in the majority who does not expect my payout to go towards any more than a good time and a players pack. Cheers.

[ScottW]

HarrisonH - perhaps a little harsh but I think you make fair points. I also do have to agree with a lot of what Rooster stated in his original post. I think there are a handful of players who expect too much. I also think the payouts are a bit too much, I think maybe top 1/4-1/3 is reasonable but half may be a bit too much IMO.

I tend to agree with Rooster's running analogy because I, too, am a runner and running events tend to be very expensive, perhaps more so than most DG events, and you get very little from a very high entry fee that is extremely difficult to place near the top in. Perhaps I just have different expectations for DG events vs. road races where I know I am just there to have a "good time" and compete mostly against myself. I think it could be interesting to see if the PDGA will change their payout requirements anytime soon.

This is a pretty interesting topic. I like reading other's opinions, especially as a player and TD.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The PDGA does not require any payout if announced in advance in the case of low entry fees. Also, player packs and CTPs count in the payout so nothing could be awarded based on final scores, again if announced in advance that this is how payout would be distributed.

[DanZ]

Amateurs get script

paid out in some sort of script

Seriously guys? You are using the word script wrong. Let me help you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
scrip
/skrip/
Noun
1. A provisional certificate of money subscribed to a bank or company, entitling the holder to a formal certificate and dividends.
2. A small bag or pouch, typically one carried by a pilgrim, shepherd, or beggar.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
script
/skript/
Noun
1. Handwriting as distinct from print; written characters: "her neat, tidy script".
2. A doctor's prescription.
Verb
Write a script for (a play, movie, or broadcast).
Synonyms
handwriting - writing - manuscript - scenario
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now think about the hundreds of times you have used the word incorrectly. Also think about how cool it would be if amateurs got scrip in the form of a small bag or pouch. I have one more definition for you, and this one pertains to your topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
am·a·teur
/ˈamətər/
Noun
A person who engages in a pursuit, esp. a sport, on an unpaid basis.
Adjective
Engaging or engaged in without payment; nonprofessional.
Synonyms
noun. dilettante - dabbler - lover - fancier
adjective. amateurish - dilettante
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, there are 140 threads on this site that that also use the word incorrectly. :)

[TYVEK]

Danz wheather its script or scrip, we ALL know what is being talked about and is such a non issue that it doesnt really matter at all. to me it sounds like you need to do some sphincter loosening excersises. and yeah i misspelled some words, and i dont really care, use phonetics to sound them out.

[HarrisonH]

I'm sure all the old schoolers are laughing at this thread. I'll be sure to correctly use the word "scrip" from here on out, but my opinion does still stand. As to another runner, just think what it costs coning out public roads for those events, and again, almost always running for charity. Disc golf is it's own beast, still young and untamed, but payouts get more and more into it, and it's a small, growing, competitive sport, so that only helps it grow.

[Yoduh]

I like the idea of a flat payout. So paying the top 50% each the exact same amount of scrip. Trophy's for the first 3. I just think that if you cash, you cash. I don't see the need to pay somebody who played better than another more. Not for an AMATEUR division. I could see not paying them at all. We did that a couple years here in Washington. Our money was supposed to go to a big players pack. Some TD's gave us sweet packs, like two discs, a shirt a towel and a mini, and others gave us a shirt. Which I do have to say felt cheap. If they gave us a shirt and got lunches for us now we're talking. I guess I think that the money for the most part should be spent back in the Amateur divisions. Other than the cost of the tournament fees and stuff.

[matt]

when I decided to do the glow golf
I was surprised how many people asked, how much/if any was the payout going to be, when they asked how much it was going to cost

and it kind of pissed me off a little tiny bit at first, because I was paying over $200.oo out of my pocket to get this going
and now you want me to pay you to come out and play?

but I got over it pretty quick because I know thats how disc golfers think
and when I thought about it for a while, I did realize that the more reasons,
(i.e.- payouts for best score and aces, C.T.P. prizes, and a drawing at the end of the night)
I have for people to come play, the more people would show up

plus, winning stuff is fun, I dont care who you are. and thats why I am doing the glow-----for THE FUN of it

and the math works out, the more people that show up = matt is more likely toget his investment back

but in the end I dont really care either way, I just wanted to play glow golf (just not by myself)

[Stephen.Sines]

ams shouldn't be recieving anything but comemorative gift and the top 20% should be awarded whatever is deemed appropriate.
the rest should deal with the reality of the situation. ams should be primarily focused on acquiring greater ratings. spoiled... very. very much so in the NW.

this has nothing to do with anything else.
tourneys should be ran for a gain on finance and not for keeping needy folks happy.
this is now the age of funding our events properly, and not promoting some giveaway.
want bigger and better events? pay the entry and play. players packs at C & B tiers are a joke in my opinion and shouldn't be considered. TD's should get paid for their work and quit doing this community pro bono shiz.

get more money and better competition. when there is a mass excess in funds then possibly consider providing lush perks like what our community has been experiencing. players packs and material goods are setting us back in terms of what we can offer as far as nice courses and amenities during play.

monies from entries should strictly go towards production costs, promotion, TD payment, paid spotters (no volunteers - unless requested by said volunteer to be unpaid), and course improvement and beautification.

:)

[Rooster]

ams shouldn't be recieving anything but comemorative gift and the top 20% should be awarded whatever is deemed appropriate.
the rest should deal with the reality of the situation. ams should be primarily focused on acquiring greater ratings. spoiled... very. very much so in the NW.

this has nothing to do with anything else.
tourneys should be ran for a gain on finance and not for keeping needy folks happy.
this is now the age of funding our events properly, and not promoting some giveaway.
want bigger and better events? pay the entry and play. players packs at C & B tiers are a joke in my opinion and shouldn't be considered. TD's should get paid for their work and quit doing this community pro bono shiz.

get more money and better competition. when there is a mass excess in funds then possibly consider providing lush perks like what our community has been experiencing. players packs and material goods are setting us back in terms of what we can offer as far as nice courses and amenities during play.

monies from entries should strictly go towards production costs, promotion, TD payment, paid spotters (no volunteers - unless requested by said volunteer to be unpaid), and course improvement and beautification.

:)

Well said Mr Sines!

[seanb]

sphincter loosening exercises...:laughing:

[Chuck Kennedy]

I reject the initial premise that ams are specifically the ones spoiled in the sport. It's also the pseudo pros who have been spoiled by expecting 100%+ payouts with little or no contribution towards event expenses and little rationale for why they should be able to play for cash (i.e. paying spectators) versus winning merch like all of the other semi-pros (not ams) who play for merch.

If anything, there should be no cash payouts in any division and potentially even larger merch payouts (with sponsorship) that include a significant selection of prizes outside of disc golf merchandise where the retail/wholesale differential is used to cover tourney expenses including compensation for the TD team.

Yes, our current tournament structure has produced spoiled players but it's both players we call ams and pros although neither fit the conventional definitions. It's not "am" payouts per se that are the root of the problem. If the sport and our original TDs started with conventional am divisions like many other developing sports rather than pros with cash payouts, and events were run by Parks Depts, our current structure where TDs feel compelled to cater to the pros with cash payouts and even added cash would likely have materialized more conventionally (if at all) like other sports where payouts only came from spectator income and external sponsorship, not mostly from am retail/wholesale differential. But that's where we're at for now. The fault lies not with all players who have been spoiled and prefer to continue those expectations but more the administrative side of tournament structure that has evolved from the culture and traditions that produced it.

[Matt B.]

Seriously guys? You are using the word script wrong. Let me help you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
scrip
/skrip/
Noun
1. A provisional certificate of money subscribed to a bank or company, entitling the holder to a formal certificate and dividends.
2. A small bag or pouch, typically one carried by a pilgrim, shepherd, or beggar.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
script
/skript/
Noun
1. Handwriting as distinct from print; written characters: "her neat, tidy script".
2. A doctor's prescription.
Verb
Write a script for (a play, movie, or broadcast).
Synonyms
handwriting - writing - manuscript - scenario
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now think about the hundreds of times you have used the word incorrectly. Also think about how cool it would be if amateurs got scrip in the form of a small bag or pouch. I have one more definition for you, and this one pertains to your topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
am·a·teur
/ˈamətər/
Noun
A person who engages in a pursuit, esp. a sport, on an unpaid basis.
Adjective
Engaging or engaged in without payment; nonprofessional.
Synonyms
noun. dilettante - dabbler - lover - fancier
adjective. amateurish - dilettante
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, there are 140 threads on this site that that also use the word incorrectly. :)

Thank you Dan! It's terrible when people loose the ability to spell!*




Script is my biggest disc golf spelling/usage pet peeve, and the epidemic of people losing the ability to spell lose correctly is my biggest general spelling pet peeve.

There is always time for good grammar!

[emmarose]

Seriously guys? You are using the word script wrong. Let me help you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
scrip
/skrip/
Noun
1. A provisional certificate of money subscribed to a bank or company, entitling the holder to a formal certificate and dividends.
2. A small bag or pouch, typically one carried by a pilgrim, shepherd, or beggar.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
script
/skript/
Noun
1. Handwriting as distinct from print; written characters: "her neat, tidy script".
2. A doctor's prescription.
Verb
Write a script for (a play, movie, or broadcast).
Synonyms
handwriting - writing - manuscript - scenario
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now think about the hundreds of times you have used the word incorrectly. Also think about how cool it would be if amateurs got scrip in the form of a small bag or pouch. I have one more definition for you, and this one pertains to your topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
am·a·teur
/ˈamətər/
Noun
A person who engages in a pursuit, esp. a sport, on an unpaid basis.
Adjective
Engaging or engaged in without payment; nonprofessional.
Synonyms
noun. dilettante - dabbler - lover - fancier
adjective. amateurish - dilettante
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, there are 140 threads on this site that that also use the word incorrectly. :)

amen hallelujah sing it on the mountain, brutha zents.

scrip, people. seriously.

[Scott]

Seriously guys? You are using the word script wrong. Let me help you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
scrip
/skrip/
Noun
1. A provisional certificate of money subscribed to a bank or company, entitling the holder to a formal certificate and dividends.
2. A small bag or pouch, typically one carried by a pilgrim, shepherd, or beggar.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
script
/skript/
Noun
1. Handwriting as distinct from print; written characters: "her neat, tidy script".
2. A doctor's prescription.
Verb
Write a script for (a play, movie, or broadcast).
Synonyms
handwriting - writing - manuscript - scenario
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now think about the hundreds of times you have used the word incorrectly. Also think about how cool it would be if amateurs got scrip in the form of a small bag or pouch. I have one more definition for you, and this one pertains to your topic.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
am·a·teur
/ˈamətər/
Noun
A person who engages in a pursuit, esp. a sport, on an unpaid basis.
Adjective
Engaging or engaged in without payment; nonprofessional.
Synonyms
noun. dilettante - dabbler - lover - fancier
adjective. amateurish - dilettante
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, there are 140 threads on this site that that also use the word incorrectly. :)

This may be the most under-appreciated post on the forum. Thank your for the public service, Mr. Zents.

[Scott]

When I started playing in 2005 chouices for tournaments were pretty slim. You had about 6 PDGA tournaments in the summer (Oregon Series) and a handful of non-sanctioned one day affairs. With the wide variety of tournaments out there, I'm sure we've all been to some that have treated us to great players packs, nice payouts, and an overall awesome experience. Likewise, I'm sure most of us have been to some tournaments that have left us scratching our heads and wondering where the money went.

With so many tournaments now - just about every week we have multiple choices - we truly are spoiled. With so many options, it pays off to choose where we want to play. I don't call that being spoiled; I call it being informed.

[EnigmaSquad]

The PDGA does not require any payout if announced in advance in the case of low entry fees. Also, player packs and CTPs count in the payout so nothing could be awarded based on final scores, again if announced in advance that this is how payout would be distributed.

I think this about sums it up. It is about expectations. If you announce payout ahead of time then people can make informed decisions easily.

This year at the Fall Fling I charged $25. Players got a Star or Blizzard Plastic Disc and a bunch of other little stuff.
Payout was top 3 trophy in every division and $50 total for top 3 in Open.
(In other Words, not a "good" payout at all)
We had 82 players enter even after knowing the "value" they would be getting, and I imagine we will have that large of a turnout next year as well.

In most sports, this sort of rate of return or "payout" is pretty standard. Disc Golf is truly a unique animal, therefore I sort of agree with Rooster that some DiscGolfers are a little spoiled meaning "They don't know how good they have it."
Just my .02

[WestsoundBT]

I reject the initial premise that ams are specifically the ones spoiled in the sport. It's also the pseudo pros who have been spoiled by expecting 100%+ payouts with little or no contribution towards event expenses and little rationale for why they should be able to play for cash (i.e. paying spectators) versus winning merch like all of the other semi-pros (not ams) who play for merch.

If anything, there should be no cash payouts in any division and potentially even larger merch payouts (with sponsorship) that include a significant selection of prizes outside of disc golf merchandise where the retail/wholesale differential is used to cover tourney expenses including compensation for the TD team.

Yes, our current tournament structure has produced spoiled players but it's both players we call ams and pros although neither fit the conventional definitions. It's not "am" payouts per se that are the root of the problem. If the sport and our original TDs started with conventional am divisions like many other developing sports rather than pros with cash payouts, and events were run by Parks Depts, our current structure where TDs feel compelled to cater to the pros with cash payouts and even added cash would likely have materialized more conventionally (if at all) like other sports where payouts only came from spectator income and external sponsorship, not mostly from am retail/wholesale differential. But that's where we're at for now. The fault lies not with all players who have been spoiled and prefer to continue those expectations but more the administrative side of tournament structure that has evolved from the culture and traditions that produced it.

As usual, Chuck brings some good reflection. Chuck, I find the idea of non disc golf related prizes interesting, as it keeps the wholesale/retail model intact, which seems to appeal to event directors. Trouble is, of course, in any crowd of disc golfers, the only one thing you know they like in common...is disc golf.

The other factor you put in nicely was that the expectations are there... because we've trained our attenders to that end.

What starts as a bonus and draw, within three years (or less) becomes granted.

If I was tempted to draw a political cartoon of the modern disc golf event structure... it would be a stacked tiered pyramid of players, with the whole thing propped up on a shakey base pile of plastic.

[Lund]

If I was tempted to draw a political cartoon of the modern disc golf event structure... it would be a stacked tiered pyramid of players, with the whole thing propped up on a shakey base pile of plastic.

I have found that if I spread my plastic into many short stacks (discs arranged vertically on foam supports and rotated frequently of course) that they can support any size of pyramid, metaphoric or literal.

Just kidding, I like this image/analogy. Also I think it would make a great theme for your next tourny poster, BT.

[WestsoundBT]

Hmmm... Maybe it could for a match play bracket tourney...

That'd be pyramid form - just sideways!

[Flatroc]

The fault lies not with all players who have been spoiled and prefer to continue those expectations but more the administrative side of tournament structure that has evolved from the culture and traditions that produced it.
Chuck,
Golly gee man, so all the old pioneer TD's are at fault because they weren't sure which way to direct this new sport.
There was another post in this thread about TD BLAME, but I can't seem to find it now. I think it even stated something about TD burnout in the same paragraph. :chinscratch:
I think it's safe to say that most of the pioneer TD's were into promoting the sport in the best way they could, considering the times.
I have seen a lot of good culture and tradition evolve from this fantastic sport!
I think that if a disc golfer, or anyone for that matter, is considered to be spoiled, then you should go back to the first years of their life.
Dang moms, dads and grandparents anyway! :biggrin2:
FWIW, I paid out half the field to amateurs in 1992 and still do to this day.
Yose

[Chuck Kennedy]

Flatroc- I agree "fault" isn't the proper word. It's more about the conditions at the time in the 80s, i.e., cash was easier to play for with no merch available and if you played for cash it meant you were a "pro." That started us down the path that lead to where we are, which has been good in many ways to build our sport, just less conventional than the way other sports have developed where their ams and pros better fit the traditional definitions.

[CMC206]

This is my 3rd year back after 20 years. I have been hitting every tourney I can. A, B, C, NT. I can say that as an AM player in most of the C tiers I have played I got pretty sweet players packs. It just gets better from B to A tier tourneys. I have no complaints. Look at your self and why your not satisfied. For me it MY GAME that needs to improve. God speed to all the TD's out there putting on events to compete in. In 2013 I plan on playing a few less tourneys. I predict like 10 instead of 17.

CMC
12298
www.rewindb.com

[Flatroc]

Flatroc- I agree "fault" isn't the proper word. It's more about the conditions at the time in the 80s, i.e., cash was easier to play for with no merch available and if you played for cash it meant you were a "pro." That started us down the path that lead to where we are, which has been good in many ways to build our sport, just less conventional than the way other sports have developed where their ams and pros better fit the traditional definitions.

Well worded!
There are a lot of the older old-timers who have never played in an amateur division as there were none when they started.
If we only knew know, what we didn't know then, eh?