Quitting a tournament to save your rating...

[ScottW]

I am curious to hear player's thoughts on tournament players who quit a tournament early or don't turn in their card after a bad round to protect their round ratings from affecting their PDGA player ratings. I see people do it all the time and it just seems weak! I think players should just man up and take their licks against their player rating if they have a bad round or multiple rounds. I am curious to hear both sides of it because I know there are many out there who do it and I'd like to hear their justification for it. I guess one reason would be to falsely inflate your rating so you appear to be better then you actually are but that doesn't show a true representation of your overall ability as a disc golfer.

I've never done it and won't so it because it doesn't seem ethical or fair to other players that I play against. That said I now some players aren't concerned about that stuff so that's just me. I've had many blow up rounds where I just wanted to explode:explode:but I've never phoned it in intentionally or purposefully bad enough that I knew the round would not count towards my rating.

Discuss...

[Mr. Anderson]

Disc Golfers who choose to quit a tournament or purposefully shoot badly enough so a round does not count towards their rating believe that a made up number is more important to them than the respect of their fellow players.

[mine all mine]

Disc Golfers who choose to quit a tournament or purposefully shoot badly enough so a round does not count towards their rating believe that a made up number is more important to them than the respect of their fellow players.

Well said Mr. Anderson!

[Chuck Kennedy]

No need to complain, simply report the abuse per the Competition Rule:
3.3 Player Misconduct B(13) Deliberately seeking to manipulate ones player rating through intentional misplay or withdrawal.

[Parks]

I see it as a non-issue.

A good rating doesn't help you in any way. It can only work against you by forcing you to play in higher divisions. And if you have to artificially inflate your rating, then you aren't skilled enough for that higher division.

[matt]

I see it as a non-issue.

A good rating doesn't help you in any way. It can only work against you by forcing you to play in higher divisions.
at that point, it all about bragging rights for them i guess:rolleyes2:
you would be better off to take the low score, as a form of legit sandbagging, (for lack of a better way to say it)

[LJ Jubner]

This does seem like a contradiction. Since the ratings have a very limited benefit and as a TD I cannot force someone to play in the highest division that their rating would allow seems like a waste of time. What penalty could I possibly administer? The player has already abandoned their entry fee and by reporting them nationally what repercussions (if any) will be taken at future events.

I have said this before Ratings are just away to keep players interested during the long cold winter. Ever wonder why Ball golf has a season (March-Oct) for handicaps?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Snow?

[blu666z]

Disc Golfers who choose to quit a tournament or purposefully shoot badly enough so a round does not count towards their rating believe that a made up number is more important to them than the respect of their fellow players.

/endthread

[LJ Jubner]

Snow?

That's my point.

Here is a good question
Are ratings a suggested or formal plateau?

[jeffmonty]

Winners never quit and quitters never win. Yeah, it might sound corny, but it's true. Anyone who would quit their round probably will quit in other aspects of their lives.

[NWDiscer]

ridiculous!!!!!!!!!

[Bruce]

I will fully admit to dropping out of a tournament mid round. I did this 3 years ago at a C-tier at Trojan. I was in 2nd place after the first round, Dion I think it was had me by a stroke. During the second round I threw maybe...6 discs in the water. I was so frustrated at myself, and upset that yes I walked off the course. No it wasn't to save my rating it was because I had just dumped 3 CE discs in the drink. Just one situation and sure some may still frown upon it, but the point where it stopped being fun dropping money in the water.

Yes some people consistently drop out of tournaments mid rounds, or play well below their level just so a rating will not count. Yeah it sucks, but people are going to do what they want, regardless if people approve or not.

[General Scales]

Never have dropped out of a round and unless I break something or I get some other sort of medical emergency, I won't. Ratings mean nothing besides you get a fancy number to compare yourself to other disc golfers with. Bleh I say, I've beaten very high rated golfers and been spanked by some very low rated golfers. It's all relative to how you shoot that day and if you are happy with what you accomplished.

[ScottW]

Yes some people consistently drop out of tournaments mid rounds, or play well below their level just so a rating will not count. Yeah it sucks, but people are going to do what they want, regardless if people approve or not.

I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to do anything based on my approval or disapproval. I was just curious to hear what people thought. I've talked about it a number of times with local players. I could see your point on walking away from losing more discs - I guess that's why I don't/won't throw any valuable discs if there is a possibility of losing it/them. I have put my beloved USDCC baby Roc away numerous times out of fear of losing it. That's a good perspective and point though.

[Jason Philips]

I think it is disrespectful to any one person who may have been on a wait list and was ultimately unable to play.

[JMan]

Just another indication that folks value different things in different ways...

[emmarose]

weak. sauce.



your rating (with enough rounds under your belt, anyway) is a pretty darn good indicator of the type of golfer you are in a tournament situation... and that includes when you play like poop... which happens more for some people and less for others.

yes, i am sad that i didn't break 900 this season but it is not because of an unfair rating system it is because in several tournaments i played like poop. and if you can't accept that sometimes you play like poop... well, then... freaking get better...

the slosh finale at Lunchtime was a horribly humiliating experience for me... i didn't want to look at anyone, or talk to anyone or finish the damn tournament... easily the worst golf i have ever played in my life... 804 rated round... i did not drop out to save my rating... i came back (knowing there was no chance for me to win and quite possibly had just screwed my goal for the season of breaking 900 before the season even really started) and pulled myself together and shot a 900+ round because the humiliation of shooting 804 is nothing compared to what a lame-o crybaby i would have felt like if i'd dropped...

and my karmic payback? despite not knowing the "2.5 times your standard deviation below your rating" rule, my round was so terrible it didn't end up counting anyway...

[General Scales]

weak. sauce.



your rating (with enough rounds under your belt, anyway) is a pretty darn good indicator of the type of golfer you are in a tournament situation... and that includes when you play like poop... which happens more for some people and less for others.

yes, i am sad that i didn't break 900 this season but it is not because of an unfair rating system it is because in several tournaments i played like poop. and if you can't accept that sometimes you play like poop... well, then... freaking get better...

the slosh finale at Lunchtime was a horribly humiliating experience for me... i didn't want to look at anyone, or talk to anyone or finish the damn tournament... easily the worst golf i have ever played in my life... 804 rated round... i did not drop out to save my rating... i came back (knowing there was no chance for me to win and quite possibly had just screwed my goal for the season of breaking 900 before the season even really started) and pulled myself together and shot a 900+ round because the humiliation of shooting 804 is nothing compared to what a lame-o crybaby i would have felt like if i'd dropped...

and my karmic payback? despite not knowing the "2.5 times your standard deviation below your rating" rule, my round was so terrible it didn't end up counting anyway...

That's because you're a disc golf soldier! Droppers make me sad.

[Scott]

Just another indication that folks value different things in different ways...

Thanks J - you summed up my feelings nicely.

I get that people will drop or tank to save their ratings. It's not for me personally, but I can see how/why some would.

The original post mentioned people not turning in a card - now that is some serious weak sauce because it affects other people. Are there instances where this has happened?

[ScottW]

Are there instances where this has happened?

YES!:headbang:

[jeffmonty]

weak. sauce.



your rating (with enough rounds under your belt, anyway) is a pretty darn good indicator of the type of golfer you are in a tournament situation... and that includes when you play like poop... which happens more for some people and less for others.

yes, i am sad that i didn't break 900 this season but it is not because of an unfair rating system it is because in several tournaments i played like poop. and if you can't accept that sometimes you play like poop... well, then... freaking get better...

the slosh finale at Lunchtime was a horribly humiliating experience for me... i didn't want to look at anyone, or talk to anyone or finish the damn tournament... easily the worst golf i have ever played in my life... 804 rated round... i did not drop out to save my rating... i came back (knowing there was no chance for me to win and quite possibly had just screwed my goal for the season of breaking 900 before the season even really started) and pulled myself together and shot a 900+ round because the humiliation of shooting 804 is nothing compared to what a lame-o crybaby i would have felt like if i'd dropped...

and my karmic payback? despite not knowing the "2.5 times your standard deviation below your rating" rule, my round was so terrible it didn't end up counting anyway...

:cheers:

[Parks]

The original post mentioned people not turning in a card - now that is some serious weak sauce because it affects other people. Are there instances where this has happened?

Unfortunately, it happens a lot more than it should.

Also, I didn't really think about it affecting others. It would pull other people's ratings down by rating the course easier than it actually was. It would be more apparent in smaller tournaments. I assume Chuck Kennedy will correct me if I'm wrong here.

This ups the Parks asshole index for intentionally not turning in the card from "harmless skullduggery" to "definite douchebaggery."

[Scott]

Unfortunately, it happens a lot more than it should.

Also, I didn't really think about it affecting others. It would pull other people's ratings down by rating the course easier than it actually was. It would be more apparent in smaller tournaments. I assume Chuck Kennedy will correct me if I'm wrong here.

This ups the Parks asshole index for intentionally not turning in the card from "harmless skullduggery" to "definite douchebaggery."

So not only did you 999 yourself, but three other people as well? Douchebaggery indeed.

[SPIDER-DAN]

I have never quit a tournament and i hope i never will in the future. To quit a tournament to save a rating just means you are not a true player. Your rating is not true therefor your professionalism is a lie in the sport of disc golf.

To quit a tournament for any other reason can be understandable and would not be anyone elses business. Losing too many discs in water, sore back, other players getting in your head so you have to leave before you lose it, etc.

I came very, very, very close not showing up on sunday during the tale of two rivers. Those who know me can understand that i usually do not have awful rounds that would make me quit. Two years ago i shot a 881 and 907 rated rounds at riverside........yeah i know ..........tell me about it. So i made it a point that this year there was no way i was going to let it get me. Well, it did.......shot a 888 and 944..........im a 970 rated player. It took every inch of integrity and to humble myself to get up and play with my peers on sunday morning and im glad i did.......had a good laugh and therefor a good time.

[Parks]

So not only did you 999 yourself, but three other people as well? Douchebaggery indeed.

Wat?

I don't think I've ever not turned in my card.

I also am not sure where the three other people thing came from. People can choose to not turn in their card even though the rest of the flight turns theirs in.

[Chuck Kennedy]

A propagator dropping out completely or tanking their round will not affect the ratings calculation for others. If a propagator shoots more than 60 points below their rating, they are not used to determine the course rating for that round. One downside of a player dropping out mid-round is if they were in a 3-some. That would leave the "not allowed" 2 players in the group to complete the round.

If a player has the card at the end of the round and doesn't turn it in, it could also DNF the other players on the card. However, they are allowed to recreate their scores getting together as a group to figure them out.

[Yardbird]

I assume that the "three other players" reference is for events that use one scorecard for the group to record scores in lieu of individual scorecards for each player.

IMHO, the use of one scorecard for the round is the way to go for many reasons.

1) A more efficient way to record scores during the round.

2) Easier on the TD to transfer scores to the Event Scoreboard.

3) It encourages players to turn in their round scores and more data is better at determinings round ratings. If a player's score is really that bad, it won't be used anyway. And with that, the player's score won't be used in their individual rating. So, the player with the bad round just needs to accept the fact that they didn't perform as expected and move on to the next round.

From what I've seen, the players that willfully withheld thier round scores, did so to either protect the almighty "1000+" player rating (Pro), avoid seeing a sub 900 round rating (Am), or to avoid getting slack from their peers.

Ratings are just a number and a general representative of a player's performance for a given number a rounds (player rating) and a standard to use compare individual rounds (round ratings).

Ratings are a great tool to use in comparing performance levels of players (ratings) and courses (SSA) over a given amount time. Scores aren't a good representation of a player's performance level. Course layouts and conditions change over time. A score of 58 at Seatac Park isn't the same as a 58 at Lakewood.

[Stephen.Sines]

you should quit only if you end up in a coffin.

[Parks]

A propagator dropping out completely or tanking their round will not affect the ratings calculation for others. If a propagator shoots more than 60 points below their rating, they are not used to determine the course rating for that round.

Right. So someone is having a bad round, say almost 60 points below their rating and they don't turn in their card.

Instead of that low rating counting toward the ratings calculation it is dropped due to not turning in the card. It would be a tiny difference in the ratings for that tournament, but could be noticeable if there were few enough players.

[General Scales]

you should quit only if you end up in a coffin.

Or somebody you know ends up in a coffin. Or if you're playing the Oregon State Disc Golf Championships and lose every disc you own in the murky disc stealing waters of Trojan.

[Scott]

Wat?

I don't think I've ever not turned in my card.

I also am not sure where the three other people thing came from. People can choose to not turn in their card even though the rest of the flight turns theirs in.

I assumed a scorecard with three other people on it. I've never played a tournament where each player had an individual card.

[Bullseye]

Or somebody you know ends up in a coffin. Or if you're playing the Oregon State Disc Golf Championships and lose every disc you own in the murky disc stealing waters of Trojan.

Muhahahahahaaaa!

[LJ Jubner]

I assumed a scorecard with three other people on it. I've never played a tournament where each player had an individual card.

As a TD it's easier for me at crunch time to shuffle individual cards vs filling out new ones.

The three player rule is a good one if you know ahead of time.
the ultimate screw is after you send out groups you find out someone is either late or not coming at all. Two part Scoreboard solves late issue. "Here is where they started this long ago"

Solution 1 depending on how many are in the group behind them the short group might wait and pick up another from that group. On course solutions are always my first choice.

Solution 2 Another is have dropping player inform TD on their way out. Nothing is stopping the short group from allowing others through till the TD can sort it out.

[emmarose]

ugh to you washingtonians and your individual scorecards! ugh, i say!

such a pain in the ass when taking scores... especially when it's raining...

[Stephen.Sines]

ugh to you washingtonians and your individual scorecards! ugh, i say!

such a pain in the ass when taking scores... especially when it's raining...

word. :trophy:

[Scott]

Seriously? Everyone just keeps their own scorecard? I didn't realize this was a thing. Does one person take score for everyone on four cards, or dies everyone just keep their own. Seems that would open the door for lots of shenanigans.

[CMC206]

It seems like all the tourney's I play 1 person scores and holds 4 cards. I do think that TD's should always remind people that everyone in the group should have the cards for a few holes.

[emmarose]

Seriously? Everyone just keeps their own scorecard? I didn't realize this was a thing. Does one person take score for everyone on four cards, or dies everyone just keep their own. Seems that would open the door for lots of shenanigans.

no, scott. don't be silly. no one keeps their own scorecard. it's the same as the one card per four people as far as everyone takes a turn recording scores and the scores are all held together... it's just signifigantly more tiresome and involves signifigantly more shuffling of paper and cursing on my part.

i do like being able to, at the end of the round, hand out the cards and everyone can add up their own score immediately... instead of having to "politely" wait while someone bogarts the card and ploddingly does the math i could have had done like, 5 minutes ago... :p

[WestsoundBT]

Yes, dropping out of a round or event midway or mid round expressly for ratings purposes is weaksauce or worse. I think we've covered the downsides.

However, I do want to advocate that it is permissable and generally understood without heavy verbal condemnation that a player should have the right to stop play at any moment.

Likely nothing I'd ever want to exercise, nor do I think I'll need to, but gosh, ... health crisis (real or imagined), sense of dread, mental instability... there's no need for a mental stability crisis to play out over the next 8 holes... So I think that its good that there be a real "out" and escape from some of those darker events.

Therein lies the toughie, you need that "out" to be there without requiring a stated reason, but don't want to to happen for the wrong reasons. Then how do you account for and bring consequences to the poor reasons? (as you see it)

Just wanted to add it in to counter those that may say as long as you're breathing you should finish.

[Bullseye]

I think the solution to this issue could potentially be quite simple. If you start a round, and do not finish that round for any reason, that round will be rated at (1.5x?) your standard deviation. With that rule in place any unfinished rounds would always be included in your rating. Sure, they will sting a little bit, but the ratings punishment would not be unduly severe.

[Parks]

I think the solution to this issue could potentially be quite simple. If you start a round, and do not finish that round for any reason, that round will be rated at (1.5x?) your standard deviation. With that rule in place any unfinished rounds would always be included in your rating. Sure, they will sting a little bit, but the ratings punishment would not be unduly severe.

That would benefit a player more than 1 out of 20 rounds if assuming they are randomly dropped from a round. Considering that the player is probably dropping due to poor performance it would rate their round higher than actual more often than that.

If you were to actually handle dropped rounds this way, then you would probably want to make it 2.5 standard deviations plus one point (and not exceeding 99 rating points) lower than average so that it was at the lowest rating that could be included in the rating.

[Chuck Kennedy]

You would only want to do that (2.5SD-1) for Pros. If you did it for Ams, you would be sanctioning a fast way for them to drop their ratings and bag in a lower division.

[Lund]

I have only seen people drop out first hand on a couple occasions and they were not injury related. Once it was to protect a rating the other was because someone couldn't deal with cold / rainy conditions. To be honest it was more of an addition by subtraction for the rest of the group in both instances.

[Jason Philips]

To be honest it was more of an addition by subtraction for the rest of the group in both instances.

I still think the issue for me is the fact that someone who would have played no matter what. Someone who would have stuck it out was probably on a waitlist and didn't get to play.

I wonder if there is a system of notification of players who perpetually drop from tournaments. Would a tournament director want to know of people who typically do not finish?

[Parks]

You would only want to do that (2.5SD-1) for Pros. If you did it for Ams, you would be sanctioning a fast way for them to drop their ratings and bag in a lower division.

Not to mention that if the player were a propagator then this would skew the round ratings for everyone else to be slightly better than they actually were due to the course looking harder.

Overall, I think that dropping the round entirely is probably the best overall solution. Allowing reporting for repeat offenders is also nice. This is the current system from my understanding, so I don't see a good reason to change it.

[pdxdiscer]

one real life consequence might be: dropping out to preserve a rating above X,
X being the rating that allows you to sign up for a sell-out tourney [BSF perhaps] earlier

like : Thurs Nov 1st : sign up for all pros with player rating above X
Fri Nov 2nd: all pros with a rating below X and above Y can now sign up for remaining slots

[Chuck Kennedy]

This is causing a bit of a problem in Europe where minimum ratings are used to determine preference for several event entries. This has resulted in complaints from some European organizers that the PDGA isn't doing enough to stop the "DNF to protect a rating" problem. Of course, the rules do not allow players to withdraw or tank rounds to protect their rating if it's actually called [3.3B(13)]. Getting players and TDs to call it is part of the problem.

[Bullseye]

Getting players and TDs to call it is part of the problem.

Hmmm... Calling it... and having ANYONE listen are two entirely different things. I know of several cases where people DID complain about the actions of some players only to have their concerns fall on completely deaf ears. If the PDGA never responds to a valid issue, it pretty much makes people think it is pointless to even complain.

[CMC206]

I was thinking it would be cool if they institute something that penalizes the player that quits a tourney. My idea is to have a few categories:

DNF - I (injury) no penalty

DNF - E (Emergency) No Penalty

DNF - DNF something should happen to your rating like a -10 point penalty?

Thoughts?

[CarlitosBonitos]

I was thinking it would be cool if they institute something that penalizes the player that quits a tourney. My idea is to have a few categories:

DNF - I (injury) no penalty

DNF - E (Emergency) No Penalty

DNF - DNF something should happen to your rating like a -10 point penalty?

Thoughts?

That is an excellent idea, plus the players who jsut no show the second day of an event would be much more apt to call or send a message to the TD that some kind of Emergency happend (real or percieved) which would then give the TD the proper information needed to assign players to cards and avoid the only 2 people show up rule.

I personally would never quit a round short of Injury or Emergency, but if I knew that my rating was going to take a 10 point hit if I didnt provide explanation to the TD, I would certainly make an effort to give them a heads up. This doesnt only happen on day two, it can also happen on round 2 if you shoot really crappy then I have seen many instances of no showing for round 2. In the interest of Sportsmanship and limited availability, I think it would be a great idea to hold these perpetual DNF'ers accountable.

[Kris C]

So if a pro were to shoot 14 and then 80 points below their rating on day 1, would that affect their ratings enough to make them not show on day 2?:confused:

[Scott]

I was thinking it would be cool if they institute something that penalizes the player that quits a tourney. My idea is to have a few categories:

DNF - I (injury) no penalty

DNF - E (Emergency) No Penalty

DNF - DNF something should happen to your rating like a -10 point penalty?

Thoughts?

Not that tough to fake an injury.

[Bullseye]

I was thinking it would be cool if they institute something that penalizes the player that quits a tourney. My idea is to have a few categories:

DNF - I (injury) no penalty

DNF - E (Emergency) No Penalty

DNF - DNF something should happen to your rating like a -10 point penalty?

Thoughts?

Not that tough to fake an injury.

Exactly.

Which is why my suggested solution wasn't overly harsh, but it affected EVERY round that a player starts but does not finish.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The PDGA Disciplinary Committee has actually dealt with at least 5 cases pertaining to tanking rounds in the past year. Not sure what penalty was applied in any case but it did not affect their rating.

Roger and I proposed a 5-point penalty be applied to a Pro's current rating (not Ams) for any DNF regardless of reason that would be in place for 6 months. Just like it doesn't matter why you are late to your hole(s) and get par+4, we wouldn't care why the player withdrew. It would just be the standard penalty for any DNF. It's still being considered.

[Jason Philips]

Not that tough to fake an injury.

Losing your ass is not a fake injury, is it?



Chuck, while I can appreciate 5 cases being handled over the last year one look at any larger tournament shows a number higher than that for one single tournament.

Serious question, does anyone know what the rules are pertaining to rounds in PGA ball golf events? If a player leaves early is there a penalty? Just curious.

[Flash]

Losing your ass is not a fake injury, is it?



Chuck, while I can appreciate 5 cases being handled over the last year one look at any larger tournament shows a number higher than that for one single tournament.

Serious question, does anyone know what the rules are pertaining to rounds in PGA ball golf events? If a player leaves early is there a penalty? Just curious.

No sure but there is usually a significant loss of money to the player and the sponsor. Also almost every ball golf event has a cut, you won't make the cut if you are sucking pond water. If you make the cut and drop you are walking away from a paycheck.

[DMajor]

I think if you're unavoidably negatively affecting the people around you or are physically hurt then by all means quit. If you're just having a shitty day I think it's best to stick it out & be grateful for the opportunity to control your emotions instead of letting your emotions control you. I learn far more from the bad days on the course than I do the good.

As far as sanctions for DNF's go, I think you should get a set # per year with no penalty. If you exceed that # you are suspended from playing tournaments for x amount of time. If you're DNF's are legitimate injuries then you should be able to appeal the suspension.

**I really think something like the above idea should only apply to the upper end of the pros though. A few rating points doesn't really matter much for the rest of us & would be a waste of time & resources for the PDGA to administer. A simple internet incentive such as an iron man award for your player page given to those with no annual DNF's (or something similar) might go a long way. Go 5 years with no DNF'S & get a pin for your bag or something.

[Chuck Kennedy]

In 2011 there were a bit more than 2800 DNFs out of around 200,000 rounds. So less than 2%. One player had the most at 6.