which Roc?

[matt]

which Roc mold is the most over stable?
and/or has the most fade (if you prefer)
and star plastic would add to that, I assume, correct?

I have waded through this for a while and now my head hurts

[General Scales]

Champion Roc's seem to be the most overstable.

[sillybizz]

which Roc mold is the most over stable?
and/or has the most fade (if you prefer)
and star plastic would add to that, I assume, correct?

I have waded through this for a while and now my head hurts

From Three Putt over at DGCR:

Roc history 101, professor Three Putt shall be teaching this subject...

The original disc that was called a Roc was a 21.2 cm diameter disc that came out in '87. It was essentially an Aviar XD with a big bead. It was for sale for a short time and discontinued, replaced with a 21.7 cm diameter disc that was also called a Roc. In 1995, the original 21.2 cm disc was re-released under the name "Classic Roc." So the small diameter disc has the word "Roc" in the name, but that is not what we are talking about when we say "Roc."

When we say "Roc" we mean the 21.7 cm diameter disc that came out in '88ish. When this first Roc was tooled, Innova did not have a plant and outsourced all the injection molding. They had a P.O. Box in San Marino, CA, so the disc said "San Marino" in the tooling on the underside of the disc.

This "San Marino" Roc (which was never called that at the time) was a great disc. At the time it was one of the longest discs on the market. It would start out a bit overstable but soon beat into a long, straight disc with a slight predictable fade that didn't usually turn over into a headwind. Just a great disc. Back in the early 90's, they were ubiquitous. Everybody threw one. It was just the best disc around.

In the early 90's Innova established a plant in Ontario, CA and started doing all the injection molding in house. Around '94 the Roc mold was shot. You can't have a lot of control over the conditions a mold is used in when you outsource, and the Roc was so popular that they made a lot of runs of it. That mold became distorted and the discs did not come out right, so a new Roc mold was made. Since the plant was in Ontario, CA at that time, the new Roc said "Ontario" in the tooling.

The Ontario Roc was the disc that ruined the Roc. Stable out of the box, it could not handle the torque that the San Marino could and tended to flip. Throwing one into the wind was close to a religious experience, as it involved a lot of praying. It was really more like a longer Shark than the San Marino Roc.

At the same time that the Ontario mold came out, Innova released some really cruddy cheap plastic. Pretty much all of the disc would warp or deform in some way. When you bought discs at this time, you could tell the serious players becasue they would flip through the whole stack of discs hoping to find an old run in the stack. The combination of the bad Ontario Roc mold and the bad plastic resulted in a lot of people throwing Discraft. Other people horded San Marino Rocs, making it one of the early valuable discs.

Innova soon got back on their A game and improved their plastic. They also closed the Ontario plant and moved to Rancho Cucamonga, CA. In '97 they again changed the Roc mold, but this time they got it right. The new disc was the current "Rancho" Roc, so called becasue it says "Rancho Cucamonga" in the underside tooling.

The Rancho Roc is the most overstable of the three 21.7 cm diameter Rocs. You can torque the Hell out of one and not flip it. It is great into the wind. It has a more pronounced fade than a San Marino, but all in all it is a very dependable, predictable disc. It's still the king of the mid-range discs.

None of the various plastic lines or full-color stamps came around until AFTER the Rancho Roc was in production. As a result, all KC Pro Rocs are made from the Rancho mold. All of the Ching Rocs are made from the Rancho mold. All of the Super Rocs and SE Rocs are made from the Racho mold. All of the USDGC Rocs up until a few years ago were Rancho Rocs. They are all the same mold with different plastics

Now, here is where it gets a bit confusing. The Ontario Roc is a good disc in combination with a San Marino or Rancho Roc, it's just not stable enough to use on it's own. After awhile people started looking for Ontarios to use as a turnover mid, and ebay started burning up with $50 Ontario Rocs. San Marino Rocs had been selling for that much for a long time.

New technology makes it easier to re-create a mold now that it was in '94, so Innova just re-created the Ontario mold in '07 and re-released Ontario Rocs in the CFR program. Then last year they re-created the San Marino mold and re-released it in the CFR program. So now if you really need and Ontario or San Marino you can get one and the extra money goes to a tournament purse, not some disc collectors pocket. They have also run some of the collector USDGC Rocs in the Ontario and San Marino mold.

However, the Rocs that you are going to find in general release-the stock stamped DX Roc and KC Rocs-are all still Rancho Rocs.

[sillybizz]

Just in case you're too lazy to read:

Most overstable:

Rancho>San Marino>Ontario

Look underneath the disc to find the tooling and see where it came from and that's what Roc you are getting. OR you could do what smart players do and throw a Buzzz. :|

[Parks]

OR you could do what smart players do and throw a Buzzz. :|

Consider that Buzzzes are less stable than Rocs, that makes little sense given OP's question.

Champ, Star, and KC Pro plastic Rocs will be more overstable than DX Rocs (in that order), and the mold stability has already been listed above.

[matt]

Thanks, that was some good reading
I have a 179 z buzzzz and a 171? kc pro roc

But I am kind of looking for my wife
She has a stingray and a shark, but now I think she needs something a little heavier, and a little bit more overstable

And I have been looking at some vipers or maybe a drone for myself (comments/suggestions. Please)

Since I have got a "stupid question/obvious" thread started,
What is CE plastic?

[Big Red]

its Champion Edition plastic, its the old style champion plastic from innova. they discontinued that blend of plastic because of various reasons.

[NWDiscer]

Thanks, that was some good reading


Since I have got a "stupid question/obvious" thread started,
What is CE plastic?


the "Roc" never had a "TRUE" run of "CE" "Champion Edition"....the 01,02 runs of USDGC Roc's would be the only runs that come close to that blend of plastic, with the 01 being the HOLY GRAIL and also more stable than the 02.

[NWDiscer]

Thanks, that was some good reading
I have a 179 z buzzzz and a 171? kc pro roc

But I am kind of looking for my wife
She has a stingray and a shark, but now I think she needs something a little heavier, and a little bit more overstable





is she making the stingray/shark go to the right to much?

try having her lower the edge of the disc. ie if throwing it flat at 9 O'clock try 8 or even 7 the disc will still get flat, but not turn over to the right so much. :D

[DGShawn]

There is also a "new" Plastic type Roc coming out....

http://proshop.innovadiscs.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/k/c/kc-rc-xx-black.png

http://proshop.innovadiscs.com/kc-pro-roc-test-black.html


Shawn

[matt]

is she making the stingray/shark go to the right to much?

try having her lower the edge of the disc. ie if throwing it flat at 9 O'clock try 8 or even 7 the disc will still get flat, but not turn over to the right so much. :D

her shark runs pretty straight and the stingray does turn a little for her

she/we are both still working on being consistent when we throw
so im trying to not make too many adjustments on her/the throwing at this point

and using different discs for the flight characteristics needed

once I feel like she/we are throwing more consistently then I can show her how to change the flight of the disc by the way she throws it

she understands how to tip it up/down for large flight adj.
but we/she are trying to stay away from minor adjustments at this point

plus this way she is learning about the different types of discs

[SPIDER-DAN]

A softer blend of kc pro roc has already been released stamped with 11x. Discgolfvalues.com sales them and they are super nice and super grippy and throw pretty well for a roc. They do wear faster than the normal 11x but not as fast as dx. I bought some of those about 2 years ago and someone recently bought them up from me.

As for the most overstable roc.......the 2001 is the only true ce plastic and is pretty overstable. The only ones that would come close and/or beat it overstable wise is the battle glow roc from 2004, the 2005 flat kenny 4x glow rocs and maybe the 2006 hole 7 glow rocs. I have not personally tested one, but i have a sneaky feeling that the 2006 star baby roc could be overstable as well.

[SPIDER-DAN]

thanks, that was some good reading
i have a 179 z buzzzz and a 171? Kc pro roc

but i am kind of looking for my wife
she has a stingray and a shark, but now i think she needs something a little heavier, and a little bit more overstable

and i have been looking at some vipers or maybe a drone for myself (comments/suggestions. Please)

since i have got a "stupid question/obvious" thread started,
what is ce plastic?

vipers are super silly overstable especially the champion ones. The drone is an awesome midrange that will fight any wind out there. I personally throw the elite z drone and will have it in the bag forever. I think the esp flx drone may be even more overstable than the elite z.

[General Scales]

vipers are super silly overstable especially the champion ones. The drone is an awesome midrange that will fight any wind out there. I personally throw the elite z drone and will have it in the bag forever. I think the esp flx drone may be even more overstable than the elite z.

You'd be correct in the thinking of FLX Drones being more overstable then the Z. The only real difference is that the Z seems to penetrate forward during it's fade and the FLX seems to just drop from the sky.

[Parks]

Thanks, that was some good reading
I have a 179 z buzzzz and a 171? kc pro roc

But I am kind of looking for my wife
She has a stingray and a shark, but now I think she needs something a little heavier, and a little bit more overstable

Honestly, have her try your Buzzz and your Roc. Either one of those should be fine as an overstable mid for her.

[Sean Phillips]

The white ones

[ScottW]

I throw a 2006 USDGC Baby STAR Roc that is the Rancho mold. It is sufficiently overstable and very consistent, that disc is money! I also throw a very well worn DX Rancho Roc for turnover shots. I also have a Crystal Z Buzzz in my bag that is wasting space. Buzzz's are nice they are just not for me. My wife on occasion will throw both a Crystal Z Buzzz or a DX Rancho Roc and they seem to fly about the same for her - she's tiny and not powerful - both nicely overstable for her.

[matt]

ordered her a 155-165 star rancho roc this morning

[matt]

and have been hoarding it for myself

[JMan]

it has to be made on a Tuesday, by a lefty, on the night shift...

[Lund]

it has to be made on a Tuesday, by a lefty, on the night shift...

JMan - I'd argue that was only true for the 7x-9x. Before and after that the rim angle was not as steep or thick or when it was the flight plate was flatter. Especially if you can find a black one!

[Matt B.]

JMan - I'd argue that was only true for the 7x-9x. Before and after that the rim angle was not as steep or thick or when it was the flight plate was flatter. Especially if you can find a black one!

Not to mention that the supposed "lefty" on the night shift during the 7x-9x years was actually ambidextrous, and therefore that whole myth is exposed. The truth is that the only Rocs worth anything are pre-Ontario Rancho glow SB 4x flat stamped Ching juju with the Clown design.

[Lund]

Not to mention that the supposed "lefty" on the night shift during the 7x-9x years was actually ambidextrous, and therefore that whole myth is exposed. The truth is that the only Rocs worth anything are pre-Ontario Rancho glow SB 4x flat stamped Ching juju with the Clown design.

Oh man. That's why I have never been able to hit that line again! I thought I had a good roc but it was a freakin post-Ontario Rancho glow SB. I thought I wasn't throwing it right.....

Anyone have one of these they'd be willing to part with?

I have lots to trade, including:
-perfectly seasoned dx cheetahs 8.4/10
-offcenter X out FL (the real Firebird Leopard)
-Champion Teerex (No, not the X)
-Pearly, big bead aviars, a little ink, just says "Rage"
-The real OR tdg first run DFL trophy (not the one Bob broke)
-rare, disc dye workshop rejects (Cro with a raven dye, Orc with a Goblin dye)
-2008 GNO player's pack shirt (the "typo")
-Sines decoder ring - sold
-some of the desert dust from the treads of Wiggin's right shoe (yep his planting foot) from the day he broke the world distance record
etc.

Or we could do straight cash. PM me, like my facebook or @nightshiftbigbead11x

[Bullseye]

Oh man. That's why I have never been able to hit that line again! I thought I had a good roc but it was a freakin post-Ontario Rancho glow SB. I thought I wasn't throwing it right.....

Anyone have one of these they'd be willing to part with?

I have lots to trade, including:
-perfectly seasoned dx cheetahs 8.4/10
-offcenter X out FL (the real Firebird Leopard)
-Champion Teerex (No, not the X)
-Pearly, big bead aviars, a little ink, just says "Rage"
-The real OR tdg first run DFL trophy (not the one Bob broke)
-rare, disc dye workshop rejects (Cro with a raven dye, Orc with a Goblin dye)
-2008 GNO player's pack shirt (the "typo")
-Sines decoder ring - sold
-some of the desert dust from the treads of Wiggin's right shoe (yep his planting foot) from the day he broke the world distance record
etc.

Or we could do straight cash. PM me, like my facebook or @nightshiftbigbead11x

Lund,

I do have a 1st place laminated fish trophy from an early Great Northwest Open. Willing to trade anything for that obvious collectible?

Jeff

[Matt B.]

Oh man. That's why I have never been able to hit that line again! I thought I had a good roc but it was a freakin post-Ontario Rancho glow SB. I thought I wasn't throwing it right.....

Anyone have one of these they'd be willing to part with?

I have lots to trade, including:
-perfectly seasoned dx cheetahs 8.4/10
-offcenter X out FL (the real Firebird Leopard)
-Champion Teerex (No, not the X)
-Pearly, big bead aviars, a little ink, just says "Rage"
-The real OR tdg first run DFL trophy (not the one Bob broke)
-rare, disc dye workshop rejects (Cro with a raven dye, Orc with a Goblin dye)
-2008 GNO player's pack shirt (the "typo")
-Sines decoder ring - sold
-some of the desert dust from the treads of Wiggin's right shoe (yep his planting foot) from the day he broke the world distance record
etc.

Or we could do straight cash. PM me, like my facebook or @nightshiftbigbead11x

Ah, the 2008 Great "Nortwest" Open shirt....there's a small piece of the Roc puzzle in that story too. The discs had it spelled correctly, but the shirt was missing the "h". And what was amongst the players pack disc choices? The re-introduction of the San Marino Roc, in DX. Yeah, I picked one up.

Supposedly these San Marino discs were from a mold that went missing back in 1993 but was returned in an unmarked box on the steps of the factory in Rancho Cucamonga.... Some people say the San Marino was the most overstable of all the Roc molds, and that Dave Dunipace ran some San Marino's in glow CE on the night shift right before the mysterious CE "supply" problems forced Innova to stop offering that plastic. Immediately after that run, parts of the mold went missing. Word on the street was that Discraft had them and with some subtle alterations they produced the Buzz. If you get one of those first run Buzzes from 93 in a darker color and you sand the flight plate near the rim with some ultrafine sandpaper, then submerge the disc in black Rit dye (the old formulation) overnight in your refrigerator, you can make out the San Marino and the patent number.

By the way, those Dave Dunipace 1993 nightshift glow CE San Marino Rocs are killer, and really the only good Rocs.

P.S. Lund - that "rage" inked BB pearly Aviar is mine. I threw it into a lake in Oshkosh WI in '95. Not sure where you found it, but you can give it to a newbie.

[Roller Bob]

Ah, the 2008 Great "Nortwest" Open shirt....there's a small piece of the Roc puzzle in that story too. The discs had it spelled correctly, but the shirt was missing the "h".

What! The 2008 Great Nortwest was a spelling error? I thought it was named after my dog Norton. I'm not going to break the news to him. He loves his shirt soooo much.

[Lund]

If you get one of those first run Buzzes from 93 in a darker color and you sand the flight plate near the rim with some ultrafine sandpaper, then submerge the disc in black Rit dye (the old formulation) overnight in your refrigerator, you can make out the San Marino and the patent number.


Holy smokes did you just trick me into rendering my Buzz illegal during sanctioned play?

Climo told me that when he hit that iron leaf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or98UCpsZ9Q) with his KC Pro it perfectly reduced the amount of high speed fade (RHBH) on that disc from there on out. I've been bangin mine off trees at Pier and river rocks at Milo ever since with the hopes of achieving the same effect, to no avail. Still can't throw it like him.

And on a side note I've been making a pretty penny selling discs on ebay that I have retrieved from Trojan, telling people from other parts of the country that the discs are from the night shift. Turns out no one can even tell the difference! You're probably asking yourself right now "why on earth would he be giving away that secret?" Because there are plenty more discs to go around down there that's why, not to mention ORDGC is coming up fast (can you say fresh supply waiting to start the fermentation process!) Also, I can't shake this ear ache (or this rash come to think about it) and am thinking I might want to stay above water for a little while. That is if I don't just retire altogether and live off the interest that I'm earning on these profits plus all the money I have made off of being an assistant TD.

Bullseye – Sounds like something I would love to have: Someone else's trophy. Is that by chance from the GNO when it was run at a course other than Whistler's by imposters that have since fled the country to escape pdga prosecution? Just so I know what to offer in return but I'm thinking a set of matching pencils (mint condition) that I won in the raffle/rugby scrum at the 2007 Fort Steilacoom Spring Classic.

[Sgt_Mac]

I ran an icebowl in MOntrose Colorado back in 2002 -- At that time I recieved a handful of the ROCs -- I believe them to be the 2001 run, NOT the 2002 plastic


There seemed to be nothing special about the disc itself -- other than its the best flying disc I have ever thrown and several others that I have allowed to handle it say the same.

I have aced 2 times in my life -- both straight line 240 plus shots that faded ever so gently directly into basket -- both with the same ROC.

A buddy of mine asked if he could throw the disc after my first ace, and ran the same line I did -- acing 18 in MOntrose Across the river -- to split the ACEPOT that Sunday.



How can I TRULY know if I stumble across one of these beauties in a store -- or are the chances so astronomical that its unlikely.

Is there a way to REQUEST these discs?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

[maco capo]

I have a roc that says San Rancho Ontario. Is it worth any money? I would trade it for Lunds first born. Unless it's a girl. Then I would need cash on top of the trade.

[SPIDER-DAN]

i have a roc that says san rancho ontario. Is it worth any money? I would trade it for lunds first born. Unless it's a girl. Then i would need cash on top of the trade.

oh yeah....well i have one that says san rancho ontario + in a hybrid star-champion-ce glow mixure. Dont even try to come back with one after that..........youre done!

[Matt B.]

I ran an icebowl in MOntrose Colorado back in 2002 -- At that time I recieved a handful of the ROCs -- I believe them to be the 2001 run, NOT the 2002 plastic


There seemed to be nothing special about the disc itself -- other than its the best flying disc I have ever thrown and several others that I have allowed to handle it say the same......



Is there a way to REQUEST these discs?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

Yes, you can get the pre-post Ontario re-release Rancho IB 2002 (01) Roc.

Simply bring Lund's firstborn (unless it's a girl) to the super-long upper teepad of Hole 14 at Whistlers Bend (HINT: it's INSIDE the water tower) at midnight on any night with a fully gibbous waning moon and ambient temperatures that result in a breeding swarm of Ecthyrolumus ictangizerii. Wrap the babe in scarlet covers, place it with head pointed directly at the teepad for Hole 9, and slowly turn counterclockwise on the heel of your left foot while quietly chanting "The turkey calls for flesh".

Otherwise check out discgolfvalues.com, that guy seems to get a lot of obscure shit.

[Lund]

at midnight on any night with a fully gibbous waning moon and ambient temperatures that result in a breeding swarm of Ecthyrolumus ictangizerii.

Ha good luck attracting E. ictangizerii at midnight!