Question to all golfers and TDs!?

[Yoduh]

If a female breaks her arm and informs the TD 12 days before the event happens than what should happen?
A. The TD refunds her money
B. The TD keeps half of her entry
C. The TD keeps all of her entry

[LegoRules]

If a female breaks her arm and informs the TD 12 days before the event happens than what should happen?
A. The TD refunds her money
B. The TD keeps half of her entry
C. The TD keeps all of her entry

From the PDGA website:

1.3 Withdraws and Refunds

A. A player may officially withdraw only by contacting the Tournament Director.

B. Players must email or phone their withdrawals to the Tournament Director only at the contact information posted.

C. Discussions with persons other than the Tournament Director, including other tournament staff, shall not be considered official.

D. No refunds will be issued after the 7th day prior to the start of the event, but the player shall be sent a player’s package if one was provided to event competitors.

E. Withdrawals made before the 7th day prior to the start of the event shall receive a 50% refund.

F. Withdrawals made 14 days prior to the start of the event shall be refunded 100 %, less postage and handling, which shall not exceed 10% of the entry fee.

G. These criteria may be relaxed at the discretion of the Tournament Director.


If it were my event I would refund her money. :)

[Scott]

From the PDGA website:

1.3 Withdraws and Refunds

A. A player may officially withdraw only by contacting the Tournament Director.

B. Players must email or phone their withdrawals to the Tournament Director only at the contact information posted.

C. Discussions with persons other than the Tournament Director, including other tournament staff, shall not be considered official.

D. No refunds will be issued after the 7th day prior to the start of the event, but the player shall be sent a player’s package if one was provided to event competitors.

E. Withdrawals made before the 7th day prior to the start of the event shall receive a 50% refund.

F. Withdrawals made 14 days prior to the start of the event shall be refunded 100 %, less postage and handling, which shall not exceed 10% of the entry fee.

G. These criteria may be relaxed at the discretion of the Tournament Director.


If it were my event I would refund her money. :)

Agreed.

[LJ Jubner]

If a female breaks her arm and informs the TD 12 days before the event happens than what should happen?
A. The TD refunds her money
B. The TD keeps half of her entry
C. The TD keeps all of her entry

So what if the player asks the TD (after HER ARM IS BROKEN) if she can play with her off hand (as late as Wed)? plays both Sat rounds then DNF's on Sunday. WE won't Talk about her being an open player or the fact she slowed not just her division but both Sat Rounds


the pDGA said that if she played and did not want to use her rating she could play as a non competitive participant.


As a TD I should be able to say to this player "why not just sit out the weekend and make room for someone who will actually show on Sunday"

[Yoduh]

So what if the player asks the TD (after HER ARM IS BROKEN) if she can play with her off hand (as late as Wed)? plays both Sat rounds then DNF's on Sunday. WE won't Talk about her being an open player or the fact she slowed not just her division but both Sat Rounds


the pDGA said that if she played and did not want to use her rating she could play as a non competitive participant.


As a TD I should be able to say to this player "why not just sit out the weekend and make room for someone who will actually show on Sunday"

I am asking a very specific question Jub. Read it again if you don't understand. It has nothing to do with something that has happened and held up a tourney that has been played.
The situation u are referring to the player showed up and played Sunday and played until 6 holes remained. She was in tears from the excruciating pain. Speaking with other women she played with she in fact played very quickly and was not even the slowest in the group.
I am talking about an event that has yet to be played. :kissflowers:

[TreeLove]

If a female breaks her arm and informs the TD 12 days before the event happens than what should happen?
A. The TD refunds her money
B. The TD keeps half of her entry
C. The TD keeps all of her entry

What is the relevance of the player's gender? If you plan on handling it differently than you would if the player were male, I would strongly encourage you to reconsider.

[Sausage Fingers]

What is the relevance of the player's gender? If you plan on handling it differently than you would if the player were male, I would strongly encourage you to reconsider.

Yeah! Gender should not come into this decision. We all want to play on a level playing field...so to speak.

I had to answer B due to the fact that the 14 day window had passed but the 7 day window had not. I usually look to the PDGA rules when deciding how to deal with certain situations. Now if the tourney is NOT PDGA sanctioned, then I would probably go with A and ignore the gender of the player completely. Also, the reason why the player wants/needs to withdraw should not make a difference.

:pirate:

[ScottW]

I am familiar with the PDGA rules on this kind of situation and given the severity of the injury, appropriate excuse, and reasonable time fram for notification I would probably give a full refund less shipping expenses (maybe less player pack expenses) but would certainly give the benefit of the doubt. I would not feel compelled to stick to the PDGA guidelines as these are only guidelines. Just my 2 cents.

[ericedge]

My personal policy for events that I run is almost always to give a 100% refund (- online reg fee). One exception to that policy is when a player no-shows and leaves an open spot on a card, especially when someone could have been added from the wait list!

Some of my reasoning for such a generous policy...
1. I figure players want to participate so if they have to bail it's probably for a legit reason. Along as I have time to adjust the payout it's no big deal to me.
2. I want to give players every incentive possible to pre-register as early as possible. If the threat of losing all or part of your entry fee is hanging over you then why sign up ahead of time?
3. I consider the Disc Golf community as a big group of friends. I figure if I go out of my way to make the whole process of being a part of an event a positive experience then that karma will come around full circle in the long run. So far that's largely been the case!

Every TD has different feelings about this issue of course. As long as PDGA guidelines are being met (at a minimum) then it comes down to how the player feels they were treated and whether or not they want to play another event run by that TD. The Golden Rule applies here from both sides.

It should go without saying that communication is king. Players, please let the TD know if you can't make it to the event, no matter what the reason is, it really does help!

[Lyounger]

I guess the guidlines are just that due to so many possible variables.

If the tourney is full and someone can fill the spot and keep the $$ relatively close, no biggie.

If the tourney is just scraping by and the TD would have to supplement the tourney with her own $$ due to the withdrawl, that would be undesireable.

If the player has a reputation of being a flake and frequently 'no shows' I would be more apt to enforce the guidelines.


In the hypothetical situation presented I would rather have a 'D.' option which would allow the player to compete in a division that was appropriate to the skill level of playing with the off hand if she wanted to play.

TD decisions are tough....

[Magilla]

From the PDGA website:

1.3 Withdraws and Refunds

G. These criteria may be relaxed at the discretion of the Tournament Director.



By rule it is up to the TD to follow the PDGA rule if he/she wishes. It sure helps as a backup, if needed.....but the Quoted section allows a TD to treat this rule more as a guideline and be a bit more relaxed in certain cases.

In a case such as a verifiable injury/illness, etc.....a full refund would be certainly justifiable. Unless of course the TD wanted to be an ASS....:rolleyes2:

:rockon:

[TreeLove]

Typically, when I must withdraw from an event prior to the event date, regardless of reason, I will donate my entry fee, so, assuming the TD applies money to the payout, and adjusts it for fewer players, then the payout actually becomes richer for the remaining players.

I will usually ask if the TD has en extra player pack, if I may still have one, and they usually do.

So that is an option for players to consider when they must withdraw from an event.

[Yoduh]

My personal policy for events that I run is almost always to give a 100% refund (- online reg fee). One exception to that policy is when a player no-shows and leaves an open spot on a card, especially when someone could have been added from the wait list!

Some of my reasoning for such a generous policy...
1. I figure players want to participate so if they have to bail it's probably for a legit reason. Along as I have time to adjust the payout it's no big deal to me.
2. I want to give players every incentive possible to pre-register as early as possible. If the threat of losing all or part of your entry fee is hanging over you then why sign up ahead of time?
3. I consider the Disc Golf community as a big group of friends. I figure if I go out of my way to make the whole process of being a part of an event a positive experience then that karma will come around full circle in the long run. So far that's largely been the case!

Every TD has different feelings about this issue of course. As long as PDGA guidelines are being met (at a minimum) then it comes down to how the player feels they were treated and whether or not they want to play another event run by that TD. The Golden Rule applies here from both sides.

It should go without saying that communication is king. Players, please let the TD know if you can't make it to the event, no matter what the reason is, it really does help!

I AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT COMPLETELY!! This is $100 entry BTW. It doesn't matter if it were a female or a male. Just happened to be the case which I should not have even stated. ASS, Magilla, in this case, is what I would call the proper pronoun. All those who would keep the money must think that money grows on tree's or they must have plenty of it. This person has not been able to work full time because of this injury.But hey, it's just family. The TD has even told this person that she reminds him so much of her own Grand daughter... sheesh

[Yoduh]

I have heard people talking bad about the TD in a crowded room with others joining in and the player out their money defends the TD and says really nice things. Must be hard to be the man.:smash:

[Yoduh]

So what if the player asks the TD (after HER ARM IS BROKEN) if she can play with her off hand (as late as Wed)? plays both Sat rounds then DNF's on Sunday. WE won't Talk about her being an open player or the fact she slowed not just her division but both Sat Rounds


the pDGA said that if she played and did not want to use her rating she could play as a non competitive participant.


As a TD I should be able to say to this player "why not just sit out the weekend and make room for someone who will actually show on Sunday"
Were you even there Jub??How do you know she slowed down her division?? DO you eat pieces of $hit for breakfast?:blush:

[sankor76]

Jub are you trying to be mean? You were not at the DRO how could you say anything about what happened? She has never dropped out of a tournament ever before that is why she tried to play. And for saying she is not a pro player and slowed the tournament down, maybe you should look at your own skills and you see that she played rounds rated to what fits with in your own average, also the fact that you have knee braces on and cannot hardly move. Then look at her average round ratings and see the skill difference between you, then talk about pro status. However if you still think you are rite then according to your own logic you should not play.
By the way I don’t thinks the player in question even know that she is being talked about on this forum. So why talk crap? It’s a simple question other people are mad because if they get hurt they want to be able to get a full refund.
Disc golf is about having fun please don’t ruin it for everyone. please just stick to the questions this is not intended as a place to talk crap about someone who has only had nice thing to say about you, but now I guess that she will find out what type of person you really are

[Gordy #21004]

TDs around the world do the work that fills the coffers of the PDGA in return for little or nothing. In comparison to this 'little or nothing' they get in return for all the requirements a TD must meet, the commitment on the part of a professional competitor is nominal; they don't even have to finish the job......The section in the competition manual regarding withdrawals is a procedure that spells out what each parties' responsibilities are. Everyone involved should read and understand these procedures and be prepared to abide or this game will remain in the sandbox.

[LJ Jubner]

Jub are you trying to be mean? You were not at the DRO how could you say anything about what happened? She has never dropped out of a tournament ever before that is why she tried to play. And for saying she is not a pro player and slowed the tournament down,

No, I was not trying to be mean. The entire week before DRO this player (gender and skill not important) and how it could effect the other 94 players who ALSO SIGNED UP. I just don't get it When I am hurt I don't play. Keep my entry fee as sponsorship.

. And for saying she is not a pro player and slowed the tournament down, maybe you should look at your own skills and you see that she played rounds rated to what fits with in your own average, also the fact that you have knee braces on and cannot hardly move. Then look at her average round ratings and see the skill difference between you, then talk about pro status. However if you still think you are rite then according to your own logic you should not play.

I am not a Pro Player never have been never will be! Yes, my knees are bad but they have never kept me from thinking and working for the benefit of others.

By the way I don’t thinks the player in question even know that she is being talked about on this forum. So why talk crap? It’s a simple question other people are mad because if they get hurt they want to be able to get a full refund.

If I wanted to talk crap I would have said her name. So Say your in a soccer league and you break your arm the week before it starts, You have paid your fees do you deserve a full refund of those fees?


Disc golf is about having fun

For as many people possible

[Yoduh]

TDs around the world do the work that fills the coffers of the PDGA in return for little or nothing. In comparison to this 'little or nothing' they get in return for all the requirements a TD must meet, the commitment on the part of a professional competitor is nominal; they don't even have to finish the job......The section in the competition manual regarding withdrawals is a procedure that spells out what each parties' responsibilities are. Everyone involved should read and understand these procedures and be prepared to abide or this game will remain in the sandbox.

G. These criteria may be relaxed at the discretion of the Tournament Director.

[Yoduh]

No reward for a TD means keep players money whenever possible.. When I played the 350 person Beaver State Fling I over heard a player talking to the TD about an hour before the beginning of the event. This player had an knee injury. The TD offered a full refund to the player. To bad they didn't seek any compensation..

[sankor76]

No, I was not trying to be mean. The entire week before DRO this player (gender and skill not important) and how it could effect the other 94 players who ALSO SIGNED UP. I just don't get it When I am hurt I don't play. Keep my entry fee as sponsorship.



I am not a Pro Player never have been never will be! Yes, my knees are bad but they have never kept me from thinking and working for the benefit of others.



If I wanted to talk crap I would have said her name. So Say your in a soccer league and you break your arm the week before it starts, You have paid your fees do you deserve a full refund of those fees?




For as many people possible



you did not have to say her name we all know who you are talking about, and how do you think she will feel if she sees this?

the refund is not a rule its a guideline, and its the rite thing to do.

a lot of us asked her why she played DRO left handed. she said because she wanted to support the women players and that she knew that if she played that 3 places would receive payout instead of 2. sounds like a player who is very supportive of her sport.

as for you comment that your skill level and bad knees don not hurt the sport but you help the sport. that is a Joke!!! we have all been stuck behind you and the weight is insane. most of all this mean attitude that has been seen time after time on this forum only hurts the sport and the players. how do you think that she will feel after she finds out what you have been saying?

if you want to help make an apology and do something that helps players and the game, maybe like trying to get the TD to give a full refund, because it is not breaking the rule

[Sausage Fingers]

do something that helps players and the game, maybe like trying to get the TD to give a full refund, because it is not breaking the rule

I am not taking sides in any personal battles here, I just like to discuss the PDGA rules and how our sport is run. But I think that you are unclear on the meaning of the words:at the discretion of the Tournament Director

To you it seems to mean "ignore all of the above, we just had some extra time on our hands and decided to make up these rules to pass the time."

If it is truly at the discretion of the Tournament Director then maybe you shouldn't be complaining when the rules are enforced.

You could, of course, choose to not patronize this TD's events in the future if you think this decision is so wrong it outweighs all of the other things the TD does to make a fun event for all. That is your call.

Again, I am not involved in this dispute one way or the other and in no way is this an attack against you personally, I just used your quote to make my point.

:pirate:

[sankor76]

I am not taking sides in any personal battles here, I just like to discuss the PDGA rules and how our sport is run. But I think that you are unclear on the meaning of the words:at the discretion of the Tournament Director

To you it seems to mean "ignore all of the above, we just had some extra time on our hands and decided to make up these rules to pass the time."

If it is truly at the discretion of the Tournament Director then maybe you shouldn't be complaining when the rules are enforced.

You could, of course, choose to not patronize this TD's events in the future if you think this decision is so wrong it outweighs all of the other things the TD does to make a fun event for all. That is your call.

Again, I am not involved in this dispute one way or the other and in no way is this an attack against you personally, I just used your quote to make my point.

:pirate:

I understand what you think, and I understand that it is not a rule its just something that the TD can chose to do or not. My only problem is that someone made very rude comments about someone who did deserve it, and she never asked this question to be raised. because this is something that is up to the TD, I understood that this question was asked to see how many people think that it is the rite decision to make. I would like to see it just go back to that and not make personal attacks on the player in question or on the TD.
thanks

[Gordy #21004]

Bob has been holding events in Spokane for years now and this is by no means the first time this issue has come up. To the letter Bob has complied with the procedures the PDGA has set forth on this topic. To the best of my knowledge any funds retained by the tournament from players withdrawing has stayed in the event and has gone towards the general purse, food service , or some other immediate player benefit. The common wheal turns yet again. Gordy

[Sausage Fingers]

I understand what you think, and I understand that it is not a rule

Actually it is a rule. It is rule 1.3 E in fact. And the fact that rule 1.3 G is there to give the TD some discretion in applying the rule does not invalidate the original rule.

I understood that this question was asked to see how many people think that it is the right decision to make.

It really doesn't matter what anybody thinks about the decision. It is the TDs call and it follows the rules set out for this situation. Add to that, the fact that the TD has applied this rule many times in the past and been consistent in its application across the board, there should be no need for further discussion unless you are trying to propose a change to the rule.

And again, since starting my last post out with this statement didn't seem to get my point across: Not only am I not taking sides on any personal battles here (I am doing my best to avoid any of that mire that seems to bubble up every time there is a discussion on these boards), all of the people involved: both players and TDs are irrelevant.

Rules exist for this situation.
Rules were followed when the situation arose.
End of discussion.

:pirate:

[TYVEK]

deffinately refund the money. i think a full refund is appropriate for any player withdrawls up until the day of the tournament. sometimes we have accidents or unforseen cirqumstances come up out of our control, it is wrong to hold any money back for stuff like that when refunding money to a player.

[mine all mine]

I have dropped out of two tournaments, one to injury and one to family stuff. I received refund for one and no refund for the other. I was not expecting a refund from either of them because the TD has enough on their plate just running the tournament.

If you buy a ticket to see an event, you don't get a refund if you are too sick to go or twisted your ankle. You payed for your spot and that is final! You can try to sell it, but if it is too close to the event sometimes that is hard to coordinate.

So, in conclusion, Follow the "guidelines" in the RULE book and there shouldn't be any problems, concerns or these foolish discussions because there is no issue!

[Yoduh]

As usual Jeremy Scott Thornton wants to talk shit on Bob. Case closed
Jeremy wants to take the instance of an arm that was broken in April before that player played in two local PDGA events and turn it into a boycott of a third event. This is sad with a capital BS. We all know that Jeremy is trying to resurrect his title as consultant with the DGU and morph that into a larger regional viewpoint, but please, Jeremy, would you respect the rest of us that have ongoing PDGA business ? I feel more sorry for Melody having to witness your making political hay out of this than the $ 50 it cost her to withdraw(which has not been finalized) When it comes right down to cost analysis why don't you just sign up, then DNF, and then be in the parking lot to sell your wares as everyone else comes in from their rounds. .
I've been out of town in Hot Springs for the last 2 days playing a really fun event at a truly unique location. If you'd like to see what happens as this path that has been taken continues to alienate disc golfers all over the region ask yourself where are the 30-40 disc golfers from Montana that used to show up to our event's on a regular basis. How is it that 980-1020 rated golfers that would drive 8-10 hours to go play an "A" tier in Portland or Colorado won't come 3-5 to play here. As far as the rest of the crap your trying to dump on me it's all smoke, I've seen you exhale on a regular basis.

[Toby Puttzinski]

While I'm in favor of a TD refunding entry fees, I feel that staying consistent is the fairest way. It would be unfair to make exceptions IMO.

Let's all be a bit more diplomatic, and not let these forums become any more ODSAish.

[Wobbly Bob]

Hi all, I didn't even know that this storm was going on over here. It has been my practice to follow the PDGA Competition Manual concerning withdrawals as long as I have been a PDGA Tournament Director.

Melodie signed up for the LCO after her arm was broken. Twelve days before the tournament she called and asked to withdraw. Knowing that she had a broken arm perhaps she should have consulted her Doctor about competing in the Women's Global Tournament. It was in that event that she re-injured her arm.

I stand by my decision and have sent Melodie a check for half of her entry fee and her Ace Pot entry as per PDGA Competition Manual 1.3 E regarding withdrawals.

I run fun, well sponsored tournaments with lots of free stuff for all to enjoy. Thanks for the input from the poll, it has been duly noted.

Bob

[Yoduh]

Hi all, I didn't even know that this storm was going on over here. It has been my practice to follow the PDGA Competition Manual concerning withdrawals as long as I have been a PDGA Tournament Director.

Melodie signed up for the LCO after her arm was broken. Twelve days before the tournament she called and asked to withdraw. Knowing that she had a broken arm perhaps she should have consulted her Doctor about competing in the Women's Global Tournament. It was in that event that she re-injured her arm.

I stand by my decision and have sent Melodie a check for half of her entry fee and her Ace Pot entry as per PDGA Competition Manual 1.3 E regarding withdrawals.

I run fun, well sponsored tournaments with lots of free stuff for all to enjoy. Thanks for the input from the poll, it has been duly noted.

Bob

She did in fact consult her doctor, and by the way you behave it would not have mattered if she would have broken it the day she called you. Don't be an ass. Shame on you for treating PEOPLE this way! Stupid sort of kinda rule gives people the chance to show their colors. You ever foot fault on purpose after you miss a putt and call yourself on it so you can shoot again cause you know your buddy will second it????

[Yoduh]

By the looks of the list voting 10 people should never run a tournament..

[mine all mine]

By the looks of the list voting 10 people should never run a tournament..

Why...because 8 of the people happen to follow the guidelines set out by the PDGA?

Maybe we should start a poll as to who should be allowed to post stupid comments on this forum...

[psychodwarf]

She did in fact consult her doctor, and by the way you behave it would not have mattered if she would have broken it the day she called you. Don't be an ass. Shame on you for treating PEOPLE this way! Stupid sort of kinda rule gives people the chance to show their colors. You ever foot fault on purpose after you miss a putt and call yourself on it so you can shoot again cause you know your buddy will second it????

is it just me or is it just YODUH picthing a fit again ? thanks for making a fun game be NOTHING but political B.S. .. B.T.W. WHERE IS THE INJURED PERSON INPUT ON THIS ? seems to me yoduh YOU want to stir up crap AGAIN just to make yourself feel better .. i would be GLAD to talk crap about you but i have better things to do in my life then CREATE DRAMA i guess you have no life because DRAMA IS WHAT YOU ARE CREATING .. go find some where else to be a TROLL ..:rockon:

[Yoduh]

is it just me or is it just YODUH picthing a fit again ? thanks for making a fun game be NOTHING but political B.S. .. B.T.W. WHERE IS THE INJURED PERSON INPUT ON THIS ? seems to me yoduh YOU want to stir up crap AGAIN just to make yourself feel better .. i would be GLAD to talk crap about you but i have better things to do in my life then CREATE DRAMA i guess you have no life because DRAMA IS WHAT YOU ARE CREATING .. go find some where else to be a TROLL ..:rockon:
Pretty sure that 75% of the people disagree with the decision here. That's enough to change the SDGA charter. I'm not the only person on these posts that seem upset. Maybe you need to go back and re-read Joe.

[Yoduh]

Why...because 8 of the people happen to follow the guidelines set out by the PDGA?

Maybe we should start a poll as to who should be allowed to post stupid comments on this forum...

It's not a rule. Can't pretend it is one. Oh I know it says you can in the book. Doesn't mean you have to or that your supposed to. I have contacted the PDGA to get the Spokane rule amended.

[psychodwarf]

Pretty sure that 75% of the people disagree with the decision here. That's enough to change the SDGA charter. I'm not the only person on these posts that seem upset. Maybe you need to go back and re-read Joe.

you have taken yourself OUT of the SDGA .. and you ARE the ONLY TROLL poking a stick where you dont need to be poking ..STILL WHERE IS THE INJURED PERSONS RESPONSE!!!! ITS NOT HERE only yoduh BITCHING AND WHINING .. again.. and what has the SDGA charter HAVE anything to do with YOUR poll??? NOTHING !!!! AGAIN THORNTON MAKING CRAP TO MAKE HIM SELF FEEL BETTER ....JUST GO AWAWY YODUH ! IT WAS SO NICE ON HERE WHEN you DIDNT POST FOR OVER 3 MONTHS

[General Scales]

Dear Moderators
can we move this thread to the controversial area? This is just getting silly.

[Matt B.]

Dear Moderators
can we move this thread to the controversial area? This is just getting silly.

I don't know that it has risen to the "controversial" level yet. Stupid, yes. Immature, yes. Unproductive to further discussion, definitely.

THREAD LOCK

:biggrin2: