And Now a Word from Brian "Maceman" Mace

[Matt B.]

Some interesting thoughts from Texas disc golf promoter Brian Mace on his website www.maceman.com on working for free, the future of disc golf promotion, how we as a community are sometimes our own worst enemy, etc. This guy is a legend in Texas DG and a very experienced TD and promoter. I'm putting this in the ORS thread because I think it is relevant, but if you want to continue speculating and arguing over who bought and owns the tables and trailer and all the stuff, and who did or didn't make or "donate" money to the ORS please consider posting it in the "turd-dropper" "$80,000 donation" thread. I think there's something we can all learn from Brian Mace.

From www.maceman.com :


The Future and all that other stuff

At this point in time I have made the decision to discontinue operation of The North Texas Series. I will continue to run some of the events that I have run in the past, but the number will be down significantly from years past.

I will no longer be working in Disc Golf as a means of support effective immediately. I will be doing some stage work again, as well as exploring other business opportunities. I have put myself second for far too long and that will not continue. I will split my time in a manner that is more beneficial to me from now on.

Thanks to all that have supported me, and gone the distance with and for me. I am truly grateful and I can't thank you enough. Anyone who put me up or set me up with a friend to stay with along the way, I wish I had made a list so I could send you a thank you letter. But those of you who really know me know I would not get around to it. So I will thank you here. I could not have done all of the things I have done in the last 14+ years without your help, thank you very much. The countless friendships and good times that have come my way through out all of this are the great reward that I will always cherish. Thank you all so much.

I will continue to run PIO (January), Cedar Hill (post Super Bowl), Z Boaz Open (late April), A to Z Doubles (late Feb or early March, in a similar time frame as other doubles events in TX), and Waco Charity Open (late May or early June). There will not be a Big Show series again any time soon.

In the future I will run these events in very different manner, with a completely different approach. That approach will be based firmly in reality. You want a big event? You want to receive the benefits of a big event? You have to pay for it. I am certianly not going to pay for it any more. Nor will I go out and beg people in the local community to give us money because our sport is so cool and we are even cooler than that. You want to see a big event than buy a fundraiser disc. You want to see an even bigger event than help me sell some fundraisers in your neighborhood or town. You want more? Are you a top player? Than allow me to sell a round, a half day, or a full day with you on and around the course. It only makes sense. You want more than do more. I currently have around 40 CFR Destroyers that I will ship for $25 ea, that money will go to PIO and generate more support for subsequent events. Email me brian@maceman.com

You may not want to hear this, but we are not that cool and we are not going to get there any time soon. We do not have any power in the advertising market, and we are not capable of generating anywhere near the attention necessary to pull down the sponsorship that many of us demand. I am going to let you in on a secret, sponsorship is advertising. Advertising is done to generate business, not to make beggars happy.

Unfortunately we are not that good at supporting our sponsors, and we are seen as a group that receives but rarely gives in return. Besides all of that we are just us, no spectators' just players. We aren't even drawing a crowd that is large enough to pull down the dream sponsor money at the biggest and greatest event in the game why would the XYZ Open suddenly be the one to make it happen?

This sport has a lot of good people that have the bad habit of talking really loud about a topic they have little to no knowledge of. It is amazing how many people there are in this game that know more about running a business and or events than the person that actually does it. Then lets throw in some unrealistic expectations and demands on top of it all. The end result is a person giving it his all, and the reward is a sound beating in one form or fashion from the main beneficiaries. Not to mention the bonus end reward, the reputation that comes from all the kind words of all the winners that hauled home the inadequate payout at the end.

Have you ever heard of the bucket crab mentality? If you take one crab and a bucket, put the crab in the bucket. He can easily reach the top and pull himself up and over the edge to freedom. But if you put a few crabs in the bucket, the one on top can easily reach up and pull himself over the edge to freedom. The problem is that the other crabs see the one "getting ahead of them" and they reach up and grab the crab and try to pull themselves up as well only to pull the first crab back down on top of them again.

Unfortunately disc golfers are a lot like bucket crabs. The local promoter is the first crab, and the players are the other crabs in the bucket. Most bucket crabs don't know or even care what is going on. But there's that one super sleuth crab that has appointed himself as the local watch crab. He's on the job keeping anyone from "getting rich" or gaining freedom, and if there is the hint of progress or something appears slightly out of line he will be on the scene. But not really, he will be out there somewhere talking really loud, but never taking the time to do all of the home work. Preaching in his outside voice about the perceived injustice but never really doing a complete investigation on the situation. Gathering all the facts "I need" as proof, and then pushing through the conviction without a trial and moving straight to the punishment.

If that local promoter isn't entitled to anything for his efforts, why should he do the work? Who among you will work this week for free? I know the answer is a resounding no from all, so why then should this or any local or national promoter do any of this for you with no pay? It is work, it takes up time, and it should be rewarded. The thing that is sad is that it goes on in every town in every state in the game. The names are different but the game is the same.

In case you didn't read the paragraph above I ask again, if you are not willing to work this week for free, why should your local disc golf promoter work for you for free????

Wake up you local promoters. Your merch has a value and in order for the game to move forward and you to succeed you need to realize that value. Otherwise we are just moving the same money around over and over again. All of the basic equipment is so cheap even at full retail compared to other sports equipment. It is so counterproductive to try and work a promoter for a dollar or two on a disc price, when that is the actual growth of the sport.

This is all so simple and so stupid all at the same time. Here are my recommendations as of September 2008.

Players wise up and enjoy what you have. Stop beating on your local promoter unless you are willing to do what they are doing, and if so you must do it better than the person before you or why get rid of them dumb ass? You keep throwing stones at that guy or gall doing all the work for you, and they will go away after they get hit enough times. Then who will you have to throw stones at???

Promoters take the time and learn what you are doing. You and the game really need to get the full value from your products; it is the only thing that the economy of the game can count on year after year. You are not Sam Walton, and the sport is not Wal-Mart. We are all the sport has, no sponsor is going to come along anytime soon and take us to the next level. We have to wise up and become real business people or get out. If your not swimming your treading water and you just as well get out of the pool. DO something original, gain an edge and compete with that. Don't hide behind a cut rate price because you aren't really bringing anything to the plate in the first place. Don't exist in this business just to rape the market and the game, do it some good or move on.

You can agree with me or disagree I don't care and I wasn't asking. I am telling you what I think and how I feel. Disc Golf used to be my passion. That was taken away little by little over time, and now I don't know what to say. I feel like I have been robbed in many ways. I can't afford to give my life away for free any more.

You can send me an email or we can discuss any or all of this on the discussion board here on maceman.com when I get around to it. brian@maceman.com

To those of you who have gone out of your way to undermine me and my efforts, you can fill in the blanks _ _ _ _ _ _ _.


Sincerely
Brian Mace

["Over the Hill" Bob]

:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers: Well Said!

Bob

[Jester]

Thanks for sharing the letter Matt.

[snap7times]

Yep, i agree, as a TD myself, that was solid. If you not gonna contribute to a tournament then you cannot say anything negative about it. Thanks to all those crabs out there, we are losing good TD's one by one...

[LJ Jubner]

If you not gonna contribute to a tournament then you cannot say anything negative about it. Thanks to all those crabs out there, we are losing good TD's one by one...

I totally disagree. As a current member of the pDGA I have the right and responsability to speak up. I too feel this thread is the way forward but those who don't know the past mistakes are destined to repeat them.

or the einstein quote
Insanity defined as conducting the same experiment over and over but expecting different results

Now back to our show

[Sam]

But Jub, you and I both have a nasty habit of finding the negative and blowing it up in our minds to where it is the only thing that matters. We tend to lose sight of all of the positive that accompanies the negative and we end up looking like grouches who want nothing more than to find something to complain about.

I do not believe that I have ever read you post something positive about the Bellingers or Jay Harbour or any number of other people you disagree with. It has been a long time since I have posted anything positive about Jerry. Perhaps it is time that we both stop focusing on the negative and recognize the commitment and effort put in by the people we do not particularly care for but have definitely helped grow the sport we love? I know that I am going to try to force myself in this direction and hope you'll join me in encouraging those who can and have done good things for our sport.

[Scott]

But Jub, you and I both have a nasty habit of finding the negative and blowing it up in our minds to where it is the only thing that matters. We tend to lose sight of all of the positive that accompanies the negative and we end up looking like grouches who want nothing more than to find something to complain about.

I do not believe that I have ever read you post something positive about the Bellingers or Jay Harbour or any number of other people you disagree with. It has been a long time since I have posted anything positive about Jerry. Perhaps it is time that we both stop focusing on the negative and recognize the commitment and effort put in by the people we do not particularly care for but have definitely helped grow the sport we love? I know that I am going to try to force myself in this direction and hope you'll join me in encouraging those who can and have done good things for our sport.


Sam? Is that you? Or did you give out your password?

Nicely done.

[LJ Jubner]

Maybe he just need a vacation to mecca more often (Chavez ravine). Personally PAC Bell is great but I am still a "stick man" Where else can you get frostbite in the morning , sun burnt in the afternoon and frozen again that night.

Sam you are correct about my nay saying but it seems so many people have rose colored glasses on they lose sight of whats really happening.

Anyway I am trying to be less critical of those who except the real challenge of this sport. Apathy

[Sean Phillips]

But Jub, you and I both have a nasty habit of finding the negative and blowing it up in our minds to where it is the only thing that matters. We tend to lose sight of all of the positive that accompanies the negative and we end up looking like grouches who want nothing more than to find something to complain about.

I do not believe that I have ever read you post something positive about the Bellingers or Jay Harbour or any number of other people you disagree with. It has been a long time since I have posted anything positive about Jerry. Perhaps it is time that we both stop focusing on the negative and recognize the commitment and effort put in by the people we do not particularly care for but have definitely helped grow the sport we love? I know that I am going to try to force myself in this direction and hope you'll join me in encouraging those who can and have done good things for our sport.

:confused: and speachless

[Magilla]

:confused: and speachless

Seriously... I thought my Computer was BROKE.. :posting: :smash:
NEXT thing is a merger between the Dodgers and Giants...:kissflowers:

Those would be some UGLY Uni's.. :puke:

:laughing:

MaceMan is an Awesome guy AND a friend....:bowing::bowing:

His case is still different than Oregon's... :whistler:

HE did EVERYTHING...He was the TD and the "Show" and did a VERY good job at it.
Here the TD and the Show were 2 different entities working together, in most cases (BSF)

:cheers:

[Sam]

Sam you are correct about my nay saying but it seems so many people have rose colored glasses on they lose sight of whats really happening.

But that's the thing - It is not your responsibility to take their rose-colored glasses off for them nor are you likely to be successful when you criticize something that people feel passionate about. You might have raised some good points about the Bellingers and the Oregon Series but the way you presented them led me to want to defend them at all costs rather than look objectively at what you were trying to get me to look at.

I have spent the past 13 years trying to take off the rose-colored glasses of Christians. I have reached some but the majority have found my arguments such that they get rabid in their defense of what I see as the indefensible.

[NWDiscer]

Seriously... I thought my Computer was BROKE.. :posting: :smash:
NEXT thing is a merger between the Dodgers and Giants...:kissflowers:

Those would be some UGLY Uni's.. :puke:

:laughing:

MaceMan is an Awesome guy AND a friend....:bowing::bowing:

His case is still different than Oregon's... :whistler:

HE did EVERYTHING...He was the TD and the "Show" and did a VERY good job at it.
Here the TD and the Show were 2 different entities working together, in most cases (BSF)

:cheers:


Yek those uni's would be frikken hideous black an orange with baby :waaah: blue numbers......


2 very diff. cases

Luv seeing jub an sam conversing.:cheers::cool2:


get out an volunteer

[Tim]

With Matt's permission, I moved this into the general Disc Golf section. I'm not sure if everyone reads stuff in the OR Series section, and thought this is a message that all disc golfers should see.

Sam and Jub, it's nice to see you guys in a more mellow state...very Dude-like, I may say.

Jub, I think your heart is in the right place, but your posts often have more criticisms than suggestions. So I think we're all in agreement that its totally acceptable for TDs to be compensated for their work, right? Is your ideal setup where all the financial matters are transparent so you see where every last dollar goes, even if some of it goes into the TDs pocket? That would just be giving the nay-sayers more ammo, I'd think, having proof that a TD was "robbing the players". On the other hand, if a tourney is expensive, and there isn't much of a player pack and/or the payouts are dinky, I'd be suspicious. By and large though, I'm not too concerned about the details of the finances, rather just that I feel my entry fee was "worth it". I'd say the vast majority of the tourneys I've played, from casual acepots to major events have fallen into that category.

[LJ Jubner]

Sam and I can get along in the spring cause we both "still think" our teams CAN WIN!!!

If and I say If where to merge would they play? Fresno?

It gets nasty when one or both of them suck. Oh right the dodgers always suck.

Back to the point Tim your right if all is good and on the up and up then I am fine with it. but ( jub always has/is a butt) we need a better way of finding out what people really think about what happens at events. Like I suggested an e-bay type feedback system. Andrewis on the right track but those events should be plumbs not start up events. imho

Sam You too are correct It's just the controversy/argument has gone on so long before you arrived I felt like I had expressed my concerns/suggestions many times before hand. Kinda like coming in 15 min after the movie started.

[Sam]

It gets nasty when one or both of them suck. Oh right the dodgers always suck.

If by suck you mean that they are the favorite to win the National League, we agree. If you mean anything else, :headbang:

Sam You too are correct It's just the controversy/argument has gone on so long before you arrived I felt like I had expressed my concerns/suggestions many times before hand. Kinda like coming in 15 min after the movie started.

Does it matter when I sat down if I read the book beforehand? If you feel like you have expressed your concerns/suggestions before, what is the point of rehashing them every time the subject comes up? Do you think that there are those who do not know how you feel about things like financial transparency?

Seriously... it is the honey that attracts the flies. They do not like the vinegar so much.

[Magilla]

Does it matter when I sat down if I read the book beforehand?

That would depend on the "version"..:whistler:

Original Author or some cheap re-write :rolleyes2:

:cheers:

[snap7times]

whoa:shocked: I think i lost my eyesight.... great guys, thanks alot.. now i'm Deaf and Blind. Must've read what sam said like 50 times in disbelief. Kept saying, I can't believe my eyes... then i went blind...
:posting::blush::smash:

[RonTheWhip]

i loved the article, like where Sam's head is at, not so sure what Jub is trying to say, and am preparing to run a few more C tiers this year. For all of you out there, you can expect me to get paid for my time. I'm NOT volunteering, I'm offering a service, and all of you who want to take advantage of it, are going to pay for it. It will be a small price, but paid all the same. I'm sorry to see that legends of the game like Brian Mace are finding themselves empty and jaded. Mace dropped a lot of wisdom in that letter and Oregon would benefit greatly from heeding its message.

peace,
whip

[papatart]

I have known Mace for a long time and he is definitely a guy that has given way more than he has received. I agree with those of you who are saying it would be good to let the TD's know the positive things along with the negative to let them know they are appreciated. But I think that Mace is trying to make a very different point here.

Putting on a tournament is work. The way that people really feel appreciated is thanks that crinkle and fold and pay the bills. Further, there needs to be NO disclosure of where the money is going. You don't go into McDonalds and say that you were disappointed in the burger because you weren't told how much it cost to make and who was making money off of it. No, you decide if the value you receive for the money you spent was worth you going back, and that is the power of the consumer in a capitalist society.

My wife and I ran some big events and although we paid out in our last event over 240% of people's entry fees, we were assaulted with the "yeah, but you guy's made a ton of money in your pro shop." Man, I should hope so. For all of the sweat, toil and time we gave to running events (not counting building a course on our own land for public use) it would be nice to actually reap a reward, however small, to maybe ease the pain of the nay-sayers.

I have said it before and will say it again. I would love to see 5 to 10 bucks, at least, of every entry go directly to the TD for their services. A two hour movie costs ten bucks. A two DAY event is a deal at ten bucks. Help keep our volunteer TD's by paying them for their services. Trust me, it's worth it.

Later,

Scott Papa
Team Discraft
Team Bite Shoes
Instructional Editor DiscGolfer

[Scott]

I do agree that TD have a right to be paid for their work. And although I'm not standing next to Jub demanding full financial transparancy, I'd like to have some idea of where the money is going before I sign up for the tournament.

For example, it's nice to have an idea approximately how much sponsorship will be added to the payout and how much cut per player the TD will take. That way, you can determine roughly what the payout will be like. I'd be disappointed if I paid $30.00 for a tournament, received no players pack, and there was only minimal payout. I probably wouldn't play a tournament like that again.

But, if the basic financials are layed out ahead of time, players can make an informed decision about whether or not to play. The market will ultimately decide if running tournaments for profit will work.

[LJ Jubner]

In my mind Financial transparency means all the receipts are accounted for that includes TD compensation. My biggest gripe is the perception of benevolence of the TD's. If they do it for money I (and others) want to know how much they believe their efforts are worth. I personally would rather use the money for rewarding volunteers for helping to get the course ready. I also believe players who get sponsors should be rewarded with a percentage of said sponsorship.

Papa your McDonald's analogy is a little off. Yes I do get to chose which obese burger I want or if I want it at all (Personally Karl's kicks their ass) and Yes They don't have to show their books to the GP but Corporate McDonald's does have checks and balances at their level as well as evaluations, mystery shoppers etc for customer feedback that insures the consistency of product and service. Right now DG does not.

SAM the bums will not win this year! Manny is to big of a baby and Schmidt's arm is going to fall off .The only Dodger worth rooting for NOOOOOMAAAAAA has gone to the A's.

Here it is Sam If the Giants beat the Bums you will buy a Giants hat. If the bums win I will do the same Oh I meant buy a bums hat.

[Scott]

My biggets grype is the preception of beneilence
Dude. Invest in a spell checker. They're free.

[Sam]

Use Firefox. It underlines every misspelled word.

[Ol' Bob]

Ain't it great what the involvement of money does for everything it touches? I love it that the World Baseball Classic uniforms and batting helmets have ads on them. Nobody can ever get enough money. Quality of the experience means nothing when you can make a buck on it, eh?

Sorry, I got off on the wrong planet and there seems to be little I can do about it except try to survive and enjoy what I have. Disc golf is becoming another microcosm of a great ignorance of missed potentials.

Why do we huck, anyway?

[Sam]

Bob, we huk for the love of hukking. We play tournaments for a different reason, though, and I see no reason why TDs should not make a buck for their time. It is no small feat to put together a tournament - especially a larger one - and I, for one, would rather see TDs compensated for their time rather than have them no longer organize for us.

[LJ Jubner]

I have google spell check but sometimes when I post it goes away. Urgh!!!

[SMOKIN JOE]

I don't believe the sport is big enough to pay the people running the events nor will it ever
i've helped out at pga events before and trust me mr. jacobsen isn't pocketing any money
local clubs should benifit not any one person
you should do it to promote the sport and to give back to the cummunity
what people need to ask is what can i do for the tournament not what the tournament is going to do for me,thats what makes you a volunteer ,someone willing to give time and or money to benfit a cause without any finiancial or monetary gain,volunteers need more of them:bowing:
it is america and i don't have a problem with someone making a business out of it, i play for the trophy ,if theirs a trophy i want to win it ,payout it not a concern as long as it's not to unfair,i"ve got plenty of plastic:cool2:

[snap7times]

So if a TD documents that they will take like oh say $2 per entry for TD compensation, does that satisfy those disgruntled nosy dg'ers needs to know of "financial transparency"?
Jubner, use spell check more carefully. It kinda kills what you saying when you spell Carl's "Karl's"... :nahnah:
Either way, TD's deserve compensation, they invest hundreds of hours of volunteer work preparing for the tournament and then invest a whole weekend 24/7 to running it and hoping everyone has a great time. Doing it for free at first is easy, but those who do it over and over get burned out fast if they get nothing out of it that they can use, like dead presidents or discs.
Example, I have been working on the Oregon Championships since last JUNE and it ain't even till the end of MAY of this year! That is almost one year! If I averaged only 2 hours a week *more like 5*, that would be 100 hours volunteer time without the entire weekend itself... for free? Maybe this time, but i couldn't do it again for free, I love doing it but for free, I can only do so much... same goes for every other TD out there... The love of the game only goes so far...

[Sam]

Really... if it comes down to the TD making a few bucks or us continually having freshmen TDs, I will take the former in a heartbeat. I have nothing against freshmen TDs, per se, but most people who have run more than one event will be quick to tell you that they made so many mistakes the first time out of sheer ignorance that one can only conclude that the quality of our tournaments will be reduced greatly.

While I was in Sylmar this past Monday, I spoke with Gary Sandoval about him and Steve Rico coming up to the Beaver State Fling this year. Gary told me that Steve had told him that the BSF is one of the top three tournaments in the world. I said nothing about the changes that are coming but I walked away worried that we would still get such glowing press after this year's event. Not that I think that Flash or Mittl will do anything other than a stellar job with this year's tournament but my concern is the same, nonetheless.

[Magilla]

While I was in Sylmar this past Monday, I spoke with Gary Sandoval about him and Steve Rico
:yay::yay: Sweet, My homies....:cheers:


I said nothing about the changes that are coming but I walked away worried that we would still get such glowing press after this year's event. Not that I think that Flash or Mittl will do anything other than a stellar job with this year's tournament but my concern is the same, nonetheless.

:headbang:
I would have to say that unless Mt Hood ERUPTS, the BSF will go off with out a hitch........ I can't possibly concieve WHY you would think differently. BUT then again YOU are a Dodger Fan, NO true faith. :nahnah:



:nono::nono::nono::nono:

DODGERS SUCK, DODGERS SUCK, DODGERS SUCK

:laughing:

[Sam]

I am not worried about it going off without a hitch... but that is not the same thing as it being the same quality. The BSF has had a festival feel to it the last few years and I would hate to see anything happen to the vibe.

You think Barry Zero will return to his Oakland A's form this year? Or do you think the decrepit Randy Johnson will be the staff ace? I see sophomore blues for Timmy and imagine he will be shelled pretty hard this year. At least you have this moment right now where your team is still tied for first. :laughing:

We're on for a buck a game again this year, right? Maybe you could bring me a 12 pack of Mirror Pond to the GNWO to compensate me for last year's bet? :D

[NWDiscer]

Gary told me that Steve had told him that the BSF is one of the top three tournaments in the world. Not that I think that Flash or Mittl will do anything other than a stellar job with this year's tournament but my concern is the same, nonetheless.


It is up to ALL of us,to volunteer time in 1 way or another to pull this off and to keep the ball rolling for the Worlds bid......

If your playing and your better half is not, then maybe your better half could be a spotter or at the scoring table or be a starter or passing out player packs......

Come out to a work party or 3, then play, the better you know a course the better you will score....:rockon:


Think about the 1st statement "TOP 3 IN THE WORLD" :bowing::cheerleader:

The bar is set. The question is can this AREA keep it there??

i will hazard a guess at the other 2......"USDGC" and "Japan Open"......:whistler:


The Fling will be here b4 we know it.....:dancing:

[Sam]

Yeah... I was trying to wrap my brain around that statement, wondering which two were better. Maybe he meant USDGC and World's? Or Japan? I really have to ask him when I see him.

[Magilla]

Yeah... I was trying to wrap my brain around that statement, wondering which two were better. Maybe he meant USDGC and World's? Or Japan? I really have to ask him when I see him.

Knowing Stevie, Id BET he was talking about the VENUE.......MILO.

He wouldnt notice the "Show" unless it was a total Cluster F***

:cheers:

[Tim]

While I appreciate all that volunteers do for the sport, I don't think it's right to expect everyone to do everything out of altruism. Money isn't the only way of thanking/supporting those who help the sport, but it is the most universally accepted method. That's part of the reason I fully support pay to play courses or try to leave a donation at private ones when I can. It's tough enough to try to wrangle up volunteers to do a couple hours of work on course maintenance, but to depend on peoples' good nature alone to provide quality events, well, that's probably contributed to the less than impressive state that DG is/has been in. It's not unheard of for a TD to actually lose money on a tournament, or having to throw some of their own money into the pool to meet sanctioning requirements.

When I ran TCO last year, I had to front (not donate, don't need confusion here) something to the tune of $1500 for all the supplies needed for the tournament. Not to mention, I and a few dedicated friends spent countless hours on the weekends and weekday afternoons working on the course to prep it, while other, less-dedicated friends got to go out and have fun playing other courses. And of course, there's all that good ol' stress that just grows exponentially leading up to the actual event. In the end, I think I actually lost a bit of money, but I write that off as rookie mistakes (erring on the side of caution with my disc orders). I'm just saying that having gone first hand through the trials and tribulations of TDing, I absolutely support giving back to those that step up to run events. Hell, even "thank yous" are rarer than they should be for most TDs. If someone wants to run a tournament on a purely volunteer basis, then that's awesome and I applaud them for doing that, but expecting or demanding that they do so, well, that just seems selfish.

Oh, just a couple other semi-off topic points, Firefox is awesome, nobody should use IE anymore.

And baseball sucks. :nahnah:

[snap7times]

Time watching baseball is time wasted not playing Disc Golf...

I am working on my company providing interpreters for the event to add a little communication efficiency to the event since it seems more than 5 Deaf dg'ers will go. Will have JEFF/MIKE work with them... *cross my fingers* Now that will definitely add to the overall show... *if you know how much interpreters cost per hour, you know this is HUGE!*

That being said. Anyone wanna PM me JEFF and MIKE's email addresses? so i dont have to wait till they actually check this?

[Magilla]

*if you know how much interpreters cost per hour, you know this is HUGE!*



Check with the local churches, sometimes they have interpreters that Sign the "Services".
They MIGHT be willing to help out, I have used them in the past with a NorCal event I ran.
:cheers:

[snap7times]

Yeah that is an idea, however I want to use my company since they would include player pack items or at least information on different communication services available etc etc, 2 interpreters have already expressed interest... And my company has highest qualified interpreters, which means less awkward moments in mistranslation etc... I am very sure that it will happen, cuz the lady who deals with this stuff is nearby to my office so i can walk over and etc etc... Its a good opportunity for communication accessibility as well as presenting everyone with information how to communicate in the future etc etc... Thanks for the idea though.. When BSF advertises their event, it's nice to say "top qualified certified interpreters for the Deaf" provided...that will add another bar to be met by other tournaments that Deaf go to...

And it will be easier on Jeff and Mike to work this out...

[JMan]

OK, I gotta finally chime in...
Jub, I still can't figure out why are you so against someone making money running DG tournaments? And as for trasparency, do you demand to look through your employer's books? Doubtful. I can't figure out why some DGer's (you) feel that the running of tournaments should be a non-profit experience for everyone except the few players who win, place, or show. I'm a GD fan, should the concert in George be free since I've been a fan since the early 1970s, and should they have to show me their books to prove they are not making any money, but instead giving away what they could make to the rainbow family for making organic Thai food in the parking lot? More and more your arguments remind me of high school students who stand in front of a microwave complaining because they have to wait for 60 seconds, rather than a man of your years who understands the value of an hour of hard work. Now I've typed this for the last week and never press submit, but I must finally, because I really want to know why DG is different than ANY OTHER endeavor; and I want the Mariners to show me their books because I do believe they're wasting money on Griffey.

[LJ Jubner]

Lets get this straight I am NOT against TD's making money. I am opposed to those who "profess the love" but do it for the money.


Lets call my request an "end of the year" statement. Treat all of us DG like stock holders. cool graphs and stuff mission statements the whole shootin match in one easy to read report about the years events.

Tim I thought you and your team did a hell of a job as cherries.

Maybe the key is to involve newer players to be Assistant TD's get their feet wet and thick skin on and then let em rip. It seems to me that "bob" needs help with BSF. I know their are a lot of golfers out their who have ideas about how things should run try calling bob and asking him for "a couple a bites off his plate".

[TreeLove]

Believe me, it's not lack of dollars or discs that burns out disc golf event directors, it's something much less tangible than that...

[JMan]

Wait Jub ... "profess the love and make money?" What's the problem making money doing something you love. In fact I encourage kids to find a way to make money doing something they love everyday, doing what I love, teaching, and I do make money doing it. Not a lot mind you, but I'm making my house payment on time. Do you hate your job Jub? Then what we have here is a perfect opportunity for you to move down to Oregon and create and run an Oregon Series of tournaments, so you can make money doing something you love. If your main argument hinges solely on being upset because some folks have found a way to make a little bank doing something they love, and you haven't figured it out, well that sounds like jealousy. Dude, that's not healthy.

Hey folks maybe we have read Jub wrong on transparency; maybe Jub wants to see the books so he can figure out how to make money and love doing it. Then he can move to Oregon and guide us into the Disc Golfing future. If this indeed the case I say let him see the books, learn the ways of the Force and get Oregon DG back on track.

[LJ Jubner]

J I actually work and have worked for myself for over 25 years. As a professional window cleaner I am use to methodical effort. You people can't seem to read my words. When I say..."They say the do it for the love of the game and give it all back sweat, money and time but what they are really doing is making money off of us. In as many places, ways, and means possible.

As far as Ore series goes, I am more inclinde to participate with the larger NW series, picking the plumbs of the best NW Disc golf events to form a true Preimer NW series.

[Sam]

I KNEW there was a reason our local TDs started looking like this...

http://www.completelybonkers.co.uk/images/smi2%20pimp%20purple.jpg

It's all of the money they have been making off of us players! BASTARDS!

[DexterHawk]

I'm coming late to this thread, but...
I firmly believe that for our sport to grow we need to break with the "it's great because it's cheap" mentality. The reality is that our sport can only grow as far as there are people who get paid to help it grow. When you buy a new disc you are helping to contribute to the INNOVAtion of the gear and helping to sustain a retailer that brings that to the market. When you pay a greens fee, you are saying yes I want this course here. When you pay a tournament fee you are saying yes Mr. or Mrs. TD I want you to run more events for me. A hardy hand shake and a teary thank you can't pay the rent and if we want people to work to build our sport we need to support them finacially. There is not an unlimited supply of state park land... eventually our sport is going to need to privatize. Some out there seem to view that as a worst case scenario. Why? Now, don't get me wrong... I fear the evils of capitalism as much as the next tree hugging pinko public high school educator. But, the future of our sport would be so much brighter if people would stop viewing the comodafication of our sport as sacrilege and started viewing it as what it is... PROGRESS

[JMan]

But Jub, you make money off people, do you show your books to all your customers? Even if they ask?

Breaking news people ... people make money off of other people and institutions! This reporter learned that people trade personal time, blood, sweat and tears for, get this ... MONEY. Further investigation shows that this type of exchange has been occuring for quite some time. A deeper study shows that some people make money doing things they love, and they do those types of things for other people who love the service provided. Although, in stark contrast, the same study found that there is a very small faction that seem resentful of people who profess to love the service they provide and make money providing that service. But, you heard it here first folks, it seems people make money off other people, love it or hate it, it seems it's been going on for some time.

We'd like to thank our sponsers 'The Flat Earth Society' who ask you to remember that the Earth is only round when viewed from space - whatever that is. And the fine folks at Whambulance, if you need help dial 1-877-WHAAAAA

We now return you to our regularly scheduled program "Mid-Day Crepitation" already in progress.

[Matt B.]

Wait Jub ... "profess the love and make money?" What's the problem making money doing something you love. In fact I encourage kids to find a way to make money doing something they love everyday, doing what I love, teaching, and I do make money doing it. Not a lot mind you, but I'm making my house payment on time. Do you hate your job Jub? Then what we have here is a perfect opportunity for you to move down to Oregon and create and run an Oregon Series of tournaments, so you can make money doing something you love. If your main argument hinges solely on being upset because some folks have found a way to make a little bank doing something they love, and you haven't figured it out, well that sounds like jealousy. Dude, that's not healthy.

Hey folks maybe we have read Jub wrong on transparency; maybe Jub wants to see the books so he can figure out how to make money and love doing it. Then he can move to Oregon and guide us into the Disc Golfing future. If this indeed the case I say let him see the books, learn the ways of the Force and get Oregon DG back on track.


Unfortunately disc golfers are a lot like bucket crabs. The local promoter is the first crab, and the players are the other crabs in the bucket. Most bucket crabs don't know or even care what is going on. But there's that one super sleuth crab that has appointed himself as the local watch crab. He's on the job keeping anyone from "getting rich" or gaining freedom, and if there is the hint of progress or something appears slightly out of line he will be on the scene. But not really, he will be out there somewhere talking really loud, but never taking the time to do all of the home work. Preaching in his outside voice about the perceived injustice but never really doing a complete investigation on the situation. Gathering all the facts "I need" as proof, and then pushing through the conviction without a trial and moving straight to the punishment

[SMOKIN JOE]

I only see one person,and a few ball courses doing it right
it seems strange to me or i must look at it real differently
the park in my back yard isn't mine
the baskets aren't mine
why should i profit off them
why should i profit at all i already have a job
you want a business buy some land and some baskets
there are only a few who rely on dg to feed their families that i respect
everyone else comes for compitition and friendship on land that we all own a part of
the local club or a local charity should be the recipiant of any profit
and yes for the love of the sport
just being thanked and seeing people glad to be there and leaving knowing the had a good time is what i do it for
some people just don't want to volunteer and that still o.k. but they should do it on there own land not one i own a part of :cool2:

[Sam]

No... I disagree with this.

It's not the land or the baskets you are making money off of. It is your TIME that you would be compensated for. If you don't feel that your time is worth being compensated for, that is your decision. If you would rather put that money back into the tournament to cover expenses or fatten the payouts, that is your decision. If you decided that you wanted this money to go to your local club or some charity that you pick, again, that is your decision. If you wanted to pocket an extra buck or two from each player, I don't think that anyone should have anything to say about that as long it was clear from the start that you were doing this.

What bothers me is when a TD decides to do this - well within their right - and then catch flak for it. It is clear that we all have different ideas about right and wrong when it comes to this issue. I think it might be time for us to draw a line similar to the one that was drawn with the 2 meter rule. Some TDs like this rule and employ it. Some TDs don't like this rule and don't use it. No matter which decision the TD makes there are ALWAYS people who grumble about it. Neither is right or wrong at this point as the PDGA has made it clear that this is the TD's decision. I think it should be the same with compensation.

[Leftybagger]

I have kind of stayed away from this... If a TD decides to take a buck or two from each player, more power to them!! It is well within their right to do so, PDGA 2009 Tour Standards:

TD/Host Club Event Fee: Provided an event meets or exceeds tier payout requirements,
TDs/clubs are allowed to retain 10% of the net entry fees as an event organization and
management fee up to the following maximums: NT $750, A $400, B $200, C $100. TDs/clubs
may choose to donate this fee back to the event as part of their sponsorship.

[Flatroc]

The two meter rule stinks...............
IMO it should be 7 feet.
If you play in any SOWS, SOSS, WBDS, Tossin' @ Lawson gigs it WILL be 7 feet. :cop:
On another note:
We may start charging "Fees for OB's" :eek:

What cracks me up with this gig making money thing is how it's evolved.
Back in the 90's a lot of TD's were accused of this by other TD's who now support it. :chinscratch:
I've changed my mindset over the years and feel it's OK to profit (a bit) from all the blood, sweat and tears that goes into a gig.
Example would be last years WBDS.
I wanted to give the ace pot money back to the gig, so I asked all the players what we should do with it and most agreed to stick it in the club.
We did and then we used it to help buy another basket.
Thanks again by the way to all of last years WBDS peeps.
:biggrin2:

[SMOKIN JOE]

the pga throws multi million dollar tournaments all year long and the people running the tournaments never see any cash, they may get some perks and a tee shirt or something,
they do it to be apart of something special,to be there ,if running a tournament makes you feel like you deserve money
then it seems alot easier to play open and win or go get a part time job
the hours i spend compared to what i could get in return doesn't add up to very good hourly wage,
let's see the pdga said i could charge up to 100.00 no more than 15% or purse,
hours put in,75
1.34 per hour ,i'd look for a new job
being a t.d. isn't a job that can be paid for it has to be volunteered for
the club selling discs,espiecially at some of the prices you pay turning in your skript,money can be made there to offset tournament costs,
i would not have a legal right to accept money for my services on public property
the club has such a liecense through the state
most cities and counties also reqiure a seperate liecense to conduct business on public land
also my club is not set up to have employees,that opens up a whole nother can with the state, so i could not legally pay myself to t.d. :cool2:

[Sam]

Hey Terry, I really don't want to get into it any further because I have said my piece but several things were quite wrong in your post.

Being a TD is a job that can be paid.
You do have a legal right to accept money for your services on public property
Most clubs have not registered with the state, I am guessing, so would have no more legal right to do this than you would.

I could go on but I don't see the point. Maybe some time in person over a beer. :cheers:

[SMOKIN JOE]

a beer allways sounds good:cheers:
and no i don't have a right without a liecense:cool2:
being all legal i know these things

[Sam]

Totally depends on the nature of the services, when you collect the fees and how much the total dollar amount you make is. This issue is not as black and white as you make it out to be. :cheers:

[SMOKIN JOE]

the issue on a liecense is totally clear
being big enough to come after may be a different story
weather or not you have to report depends on how much money transpiered and profit being made
you legelly need a liecense to sell lemonaide on the street coner if your on public land:cool2:

[Ol' Bob]

I gotcher TD right here, man:







http://vizu.typepad.com/vizuble/images/2007/09/11/don_king_tuxedo.jpg
On de up'n'up!

[Flash]

i loved the article, like where Sam's head is at, not so sure what Jub is trying to say, and am preparing to run a few more C tiers this year. For all of you out there, you can expect me to get paid for my time. I'm NOT volunteering, I'm offering a service, and all of you who want to take advantage of it, are going to pay for it. It will be a small price, but paid all the same. I'm sorry to see that legends of the game like Brian Mace are finding themselves empty and jaded. Mace dropped a lot of wisdom in that letter and Oregon would benefit greatly from heeding its message.

peace,
whip

Well you know what Dion, you can go karate chop a chopstick, you are already entitled to take a fee according to the PDGA and now you are rubbing our noses in it like your trying to be all financially transparent or something. I guess everyone wants to get rich off of disc golf, so if your YouTube videos don't get the expected number of hits to attract advertisement money you turn to disc golf:laughing::laughing::laughing:

[JMan]

Yesterday a friend and I were going through some old piles of papers in my office and came accross the original DGA booklet on DG, along with stacks of old IFA literature and it brought these thoughts, for what they're worth. Many like the old school idea of DG as a bastion of hippy mentality, do stuff because you love it and give it away, cause hey we're all cool right? Well even before DG hit the market, folks were running touraments, making and selling disc related products. They weren't giving any of it away free then so I find it funny that some think it should be given away free today. As soon as we old schoolers watched the formation of the pdga we marked it as the end of the hippy mentality when it came to DG, not that if ever exsited off the course anyway. It's about time you folks, who for some reason still try to deify a long dead social movement and super impose those long dead ideals on DG, and get used to the idea of trickle down economics and DG. The pdga sets the rules when it comes to events and the money and let those trickle down to the masses who are expected to comply and profit accordingly, provided the ruling organization gets its cut. And ultimately it really doesn't matter. Go play the game, enjoy yourself, but get real, when it comes to playing in, and running events, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN AND ALWAYS WILL BE A BUSINESS MODEL. Quit whining, even hippies take advantage of economics, otherwise where do you think David Crosby got enough money to buy a liver? It wasn't from giving away records.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled corporate sponsor, or employer.

[Ol' Bob]

Thank you, John Stossel.

All right, all you deadbeat hippies, get out of here. Sergeant at Arms...!

Will our discs get their RFID chips before the disc golfers do? Actually, a law against chipping discs will serve the market, while chipping golfers will serve the Order.

[Tim]

Edited from my earlier post...the part that stayed on topic:

...it seems strange to me that we regularly give someone a buck or so for pouring a beer or serving a coffee (and possibly get the stink eye if we don't), yet people are miffed at TDs getting a little something back for their hard work. I've poured one or two beers in my time, made a few cups of coffee, and run a few tournaments. I can safely say that TDing is a little bit more intense.

[DexterHawk]

Plus no one seems to care that people sell shirts & Glass & hats & food & even discs at a tourny... also (one would hope) profiting...