Gripes about CHAINBANGERZ

[jWest]

Two of my good friends played the last monthly Ace Run and they both won in their respective divisions. What happened next has lead each of them believe everything I’ve ever told them about the guys who own and operate Chainbangerz. My friend took 1st in Open out of 6 people and received $80. Later we saw online that the winner from the prior month took home $100 out of just four players. Interestingly, someone had asked Keith what the payout was gonna be between rounds and he said he didn’t know yet, obviously that’s because it depends on who wins.

The other friend took first in Advanced and took his script promptly over to the shop to redeem. They didn’t have the bag straps he was looking for (no surprise there), so he browsed the used bin. Lo and behold there was one of his leopards (that I gave him as a gift, btw) with his PDGA number written across the top and his name and phone number on the bottom. He never once received a phone call. He tried to make a deal with the guy at the shop, surely they wouldn’t charge him $8 for his own used plastic. OH BUT THEY DID!! He ended up spending $8 of his script on a disc that had all of his info on it.

I do believe my friends have learned their lesson the hard way. I have quietly avoided supporting this company by not playing their tourneys or buying from their store, until now. I won’t be quiet anymore. We are sick of people without integrity running events that don’t better our sport. Chainbangerz fills the calendar with crap tourneys (who wants to ace run when ratings are on the line?) and somehow they were able to “take over” all control of tourneys at Lakewood and Seatac. Their biggest fuck up yet, killing CSI.

CSI (Cool Shoes Invitational, for those of you that don’t remember all the way back to last year) was gaining momentum and notoriety after 12 successful years. When I was down in Santa Cruz at worlds, Devan Owens and Will Schusterick told me they were “coming to Seattle to beat Dave at that stupid little C-tier he always wins.” That may not sound very complimentary to you, but trust me, it’s a big deal. We were going to have legit touring pros coming to play our 13th annual CSI……… If these guys weren’t so dim witted they could have capitalized on the strong foundation already built, they could have made a partnership, instead they selfishly stifled us. How much more are we going to lose to them? I say NO MORE!

“To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.” Abraham Lincoln

[sillybizz]

Two of my good friends played the last monthly Ace Run and they both won in their respective divisions. What happened next has lead each of them believe everything I’ve ever told them about the guys who own and operate Chainbangerz. My friend took 1st in Open out of 6 people and received $80. Later we saw online that the winner from the prior month took home $100 out of just four players. Interestingly, someone had asked Keith what the payout was gonna be between rounds and he said he didn’t know yet, obviously that’s because it depends on who wins.

The other friend took first in Advanced and took his script promptly over to the shop to redeem. They didn’t have the bag straps he was looking for (no surprise there), so he browsed the used bin. Lo and behold there was one of his leopards (that I gave him as a gift, btw) with his PDGA number written across the top and his name and phone number on the bottom. He never once received a phone call. He tried to make a deal with the guy at the shop, surely they wouldn’t charge him $8 for his own used plastic. OH BUT THEY DID!! He ended up spending $8 of his script on a disc that had all of his info on it.

I do believe my friends have learned their lesson the hard way. I have quietly avoided supporting this company by not playing their tourneys or buying from their store, until now. I won’t be quiet anymore. We are sick of people without integrity running events that don’t better our sport. Chainbangerz fills the calendar with crap tourneys (who wants to ace run when ratings are on the line?) and somehow they were able to “take over” all control of tourneys at Lakewood and Seatac. Their biggest fuck up yet, killing CSI.

CSI (Cool Shoes Invitational, for those of you that don’t remember all the way back to last year) was gaining momentum and notoriety after 12 successful years. When I was down in Santa Cruz at worlds, Devan Owens and Will Schusterick told me they were “coming to Seattle to beat Dave at that stupid little C-tier he always wins.” That may not sound very complimentary to you, but trust me, it’s a big deal. We were going to have legit touring pros coming to play our 13th annual CSI……… If these guys weren’t so dim witted they could have capitalized on the strong foundation already built, they could have made a partnership, instead they selfishly stifled us. How much more are we going to lose to them? I say NO MORE!

“To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.” Abraham Lincoln

I'm guessing you're talking about Mark? If not I apologize but Wednesday Mark came in and used $80 in scrip so that would be an odd coincidence to not be the person you are talking about. The "guy at the shop" was me. First let's start by getting some added details and truths out. Mark never brought me his scrip card and I said no problem, bring it in next time you're in the shop and yes you can use your $80 in scrip. He took a couple of collectibles off the wall and one used disc from the bin in which he payed $3 and some change with after his scrip ran dry. He never said that was his disc and if he did he sure did it quietly and/or didn't make it apparent and he sure as hell didn't try to make a deal with me like you said. I know I was there, you were not. If it was in the used a couple of things could have happened; if it was in the lost and found and then made it's way over to the used at some point he was given a call, I know this because I call EVERY single disc that comes in there. The other things that could have happened is someone may have found it, scribbled out his name and turned it in as this does some time happen even when we are being vigilant to prevent it. I certainly did not see any PDGA number, phone number or a name on there.

Get your facts straight next time, third hand knowledge doesn't work. I was there.

[Simmeltron]

Yikes... some pretty stark differences there.... now I'm really curious as to what really happend.... rebuttal jWest?? :shooting:

Actually on further reading... it looks like the 80 dollar payout guy and the one who was reportedly denied his disc in the used bin are different people.... so perhaps that wasn't you working sillybizz?

P.S. I'm curious about the 80vs100 dollar payout..... ?

[olydiscgolf]

Its funny you should bitch about the people who ACTUALLY do things for the sport..... While you are busy holding a fundraiser tourney for YOURSELF.


Thank you Kieth for ALL that you do for the sport!

[Cerrgurry]

Its funny you should bitch about the people who ACTUALLY do things for the sport..... While you are busy holding a fundraiser tourney for YOURSELF.


Thank you Kieth for ALL that you do for the sport!

I too want to thank Chainbangerz for all that they do to help this sport grow.
Yes they are a for profit company but I have experienced first hand that it would not be their first objective. I have had only positive experiences with everyone associated with the company.

I easily could see how a lost disc could end up in the used bin and based on my experiences if someone would say "hey that's mine" I am sure that it would be returned in accordance to their protocol.
I will leave the payout issues alone since I was not their at either event and cannot confirm the number of players etc.


Thanks again ALL those at Chainbangerz.

-Kristopher Bland

[jWest]

Yikes... some pretty stark differences there.... now I'm really curious as to what really happend.... rebuttal jWest?? :shooting:

Actually on further reading... it looks like the 80 dollar payout guy and the one who was reportedly denied his disc in the used bin are different people.... so perhaps that wasn't you working sillybizz?

P.S. I'm curious about the 80vs100 dollar payout..... ?

You know what they say, three sides to every story.

I'm still curious about the 80vs100 payout as well.

[jWest]

Its funny you should bitch about the people who ACTUALLY do things for the sport..... While you are busy holding a fundraiser tourney for YOURSELF.


Thank you Kieth for ALL that you do for the sport!

Some people open shops, others play the game, others make the merchandise... i'm pretty sure it's all important, so pull your head out of your ass.


Its funny that you think that playing the game and being ranked 13th in the world for my gender and division isn't doing anything? i work my ass off and i dont have to defend myself. nobody is forced to help me, but they want to.


Jealousy suits you though, has for years. :puke:

[Danni]

I have to get on the "THANKS CHAINBANGERZ" bandwagon.

As a fellow TD, I know how much work goes into planning/ organizing events and we've always enjoyed the events we've gone to by Chainbangerz.

I also give them credit for trying to promote disc golf around the area not just at "their" courses, since I know they have given away swag for other(s) tournaments.

As far as the comments about "I don't like their events"... this seems a simple fix to me, DON'T attend the events you don't like. I know there's a couple of events I personally don't support (my pet-peeve happens to be trophies only for AM's) but I don't "slam" the TD's for this practice because it's clearly stated I just choose not to attend. So if you don't like the events run by a certain company or TD, then simple don't play them.

As far as the used disc issue, it just seems so hard to believe that after being shown your name was clearly in a used disc that anyone wouldn't just return it to you. I run the lost and found here at our course and that's why we encourage people putting their info in every disc they buy.

As far as the CSI issue, there's a lot of "behind the scenes drama" associated with it.


A big thanks to Keith and his crew, a lot of us notice the good you try to do for the sport!

Danni

[Yardbird]

Some people open shops, others play the game, others make the merchandise... i'm pretty sure it's all important, so pull your head out of your ass.


Its funny that you think that playing the game and being ranked 13th in the world for my gender and division isn't doing anything? i work my ass off and i dont have to defend myself. nobody is forced to help me, but they want to.


Jealousy suits you though, has for years. :puke:


A player's ranking, gender, or division has nothing to do with how much one does for the sport.

As for the payout (80 vs 100), how about the overall field size of all players? It has been known that some of the Am payout gets moved to the Pro side. Not that I agree with that, but it is up to the Event director. If you don't like the Event don't attend.

[CMC206]

Lets see. If it wasnt for CBDG the only tournament I would have played so far this year would be the Ice Bowl at white river. I dont even know where the ratings went on that one it doesnt show in my tourney list. I do wish the CSI would come back.

[jeffmonty]

Some people open shops, others play the game, others make the merchandise... i'm pretty sure it's all important, so pull your head out of your ass.


Its funny that you think that playing the game and being ranked 13th in the world for my gender and division isn't doing anything? i work my ass off and i dont have to defend myself. nobody is forced to help me, but they want to.


Jealousy suits you though, has for years. :puke:

:explode:

[jWest]

I'm guessing you're talking about Mark? If not I apologize but Wednesday Mark came in and used $80 in scrip so that would be an odd coincidence to not be the person you are talking about. The "guy at the shop" was me. First let's start by getting some added details and truths out. Mark never brought me his scrip card and I said no problem, bring it in next time you're in the shop and yes you can use your $80 in scrip. He took a couple of collectibles off the wall and one used disc from the bin in which he payed $3 and some change with after his scrip ran dry. He never said that was his disc and if he did he sure did it quietly and/or didn't make it apparent and he sure as hell didn't try to make a deal with me like you said. I know I was there, you were not. If it was in the used a couple of things could have happened; if it was in the lost and found and then made it's way over to the used at some point he was given a call, I know this because I call EVERY single disc that comes in there. The other things that could have happened is someone may have found it, scribbled out his name and turned it in as this does some time happen even when we are being vigilant to prevent it. I certainly did not see any PDGA number, phone number or a name on there.

Get your facts straight next time, third hand knowledge doesn't work. I was there.

Thomas, you are my favorite person there, no joke. I'm glad you responded. You are right, I wasn't there to witness the incident with Mark. I can let that go, and i'll probably get over the rest of it pretty quick too. I was just venting because it feels good to get it out frustrations about what I feel is wrong in the world. this is how i feel so it is what it is.

Bottom line, for everyone else, I don't play the tourneys, i wont play the tourneys, and that was always my plan. Thanks Yall for listenin!

[SPIDER-DAN]

Kind of off the topic, but why is jub not allowed to run the csi or jet wash for that matter. Those two were great tournaments and i like attending jubs tournaments. Seatac is a great course to play especially when the aura is right and that is what i have felt there compared to other tournaments at seatac/lakewood.

Also liked when eric ran the tournaments as well..........one heck of a guy to play a round of disc golf with.

Anyway, just wondering if anyone could explain.

[cefire]

Haha, this thread is so epic - definitely multiple sides to every argument but as is often the case, some seem more logical and well-formed than others :)

Definitely wish you the best of luck at Worlds Jesse, you have become one of the local female dg stars, but there I've never felt compelled to 'support' a 'representative' financially for what is essentially a disc golf vacation be it Feldberg, Climo, myself, or others...

IMO there is a significant difference between activities that benefit mostly, but perhaps not entirely, the self (practicing, 'representing', etc.) and activities that benefit the community (assisting at work parties, participating in club/course decision-making, proposing and enacting solutions to problems we face, TD'ing tournaments).

Perhaps this distinction is not shared by most though...

[cefire]

P.S. - In addition to not playing the tournaments, you may want to 'boycott' 6 holes from every round at Lakewood, PretzelBowl, and the entire course at SeaTac, because without the efforts of the club, these disc golf resources would no longer be available :)

[Karl Hungus]

Is it possible that payouts at the AceRace events are based partly on how many people opted to pay for the additional players packs?

[3 Fingers]

Did i hit the wrong link ?? I thought i hit WASHINGTON EVENTS :smash:

[LJ Jubner]

...
As far as the comments about "I don't like their events"... this seems a simple fix to me, DON'T attend the events you don't like. ... So if you don't like the events run by a certain company or TD, then simple don't play them.
...As far as the CSI issue, there's a lot of "behind the scenes drama" associated with it.
Danni

These two go together It is Keith alone who is keeping CSI from happening this year. The board decided that I should be able to offer CSI again and take my chances with just what Danni suggested "Let the players decide to play or not". I even made concessions that I did not need to be the TD just keep the weekend*
But Keith decided his wishes alone would rule the day. *other club members offered to run it for Bangerz but were unceremoniously denied.

P.S. - In addition to not playing the tournaments, you may want to 'boycott' 6 holes from every round at Lakewood, PretzelBowl, and the entire course at SeaTac, because without the efforts of the club, these disc golf resources would no longer be available :)

This is a good one Andrew
Seatac looks like crap right now The scruffiest it's has ever looked. At least when CSI did happen the course was ready for spring play

The fact that herm got the money donated for the course and then wanted to be bought out was a long running discussion before Keith even knew of DG in Seattle.
The fact that the community rallied to pay you back for buying out herm. So Really THE COMMUINTY OWNS SEATAC not Keith. He might be considered the custodian but not the owner.

One thing is for sure If I were not the Series coordinator this issue would have been pressed to the fullest extent I could

[Getty]

Tis a shame Dan "Cool Shoez" Reynard won't be remembered this year. I really hope that gets rectified. Sorry about the thread drift but peace and love to all!

[LJ Jubner]

Tis a shame Dan "Cool Shoez" Reynard won't be remembered this year. I really hope that gets rectified. Sorry about the thread drift but peace and love to all!

Thanks Getty I too am sadend by the missed CSI this year. Your post got me thinking and I realized that at the 2011 CSI I was out to prove my points, Not celebrate Dan and his life. For this I am truly sorry.

On this note
When I run my next Seatac event it will be called
Legends of the Northwest
In honor of all the Disc Golfers we have ost in the past few years. Not just Dan add Ralphie, Both Daves (McCadden and Crazy) , Chris Hurd and very recently Dale Hamlin.

The old adage as you get older you attend more funerals then weddings

[Flatroc]

Tis a shame Dan "Cool Shoez" Reynard won't be remembered this year. I really hope that gets rectified. Sorry about the thread drift but peace and love to all!

Dan was cooler than his nickname.
The last time I saw him was at a gig at WB when he aced hole one with a beat roc.
I'm not sorry for drifting, this seems of more importance than the OP. :biggrin2:

[pdduubb]

Keyboard courage vs. the unwillingness to state your beef face to face = EQUALS UNNECESSARY DRAMA.

We all enjoy the sport, and should take the initiative to make things better without making it a SOAP OPERA for others to see and revel in. It is bad for the sport

Paul Walker

[Matt B.]

Keyboard courage vs. the unwillingness to state your beef face to face = EQUALS UNNECESSARY DRAMA.

We all enjoy the sport, and should take the initiative to make things better without making it a SOAP OPERA for others to see and revel in. It is bad for the sport

Paul Walker

Amen. This thread is a big sack of shit.

[LakeStevensBA]

I am also on the side that wants to thank Chainbangerz for all they do for the disc golf scene in the Puget Sound area. Keith and Andy (hell..even Thomas) are great guys and their heart is in trying to better the disc golf scene in Washington. I have played in a few of their events, enjoyed them, and will play more in the future.

They have also supported all the tournaments I have run by giving me a very very generous bag of goods. In a time when you have to work your ass off trying to get a freakin hole sponsored for $20, they have always been extremely generous. Thank you Bangerz.

I would also love to see the CSI and Jet Wash Open return. Let's resolve whatever issues are keeping this from happening. I don't care who runs them, but they need to return. I miss seeing Guy during check in, so he needs to come back. I would also like to see Edge's Lakewood Open return. That was one of the best ran tournaments in the area.

Now that MLT is having a tournament for Jessie, is there a chance this will open the door for a future Terrace Creek Open?

Let's find a way to bring back more tournaments, not piss off the TD's and Clubs so we end up with fewer ones!

Brian Anderson

[cefire]

This is a good one Andrew
Seatac looks like crap right now The scruffiest it's has ever looked. At least when CSI did happen the course was ready for spring play

The fact that herm got the money donated for the course and then wanted to be bought out was a long running discussion before Keith even knew of DG in Seattle.
The fact that the community rallied to pay you back for buying out herm. So Really THE COMMUINTY OWNS SEATAC not Keith. He might be considered the custodian but not the owner.

Yeah, its not like as a direct result of his efforts, the city for the first time since the course was installed actually mowed the fairways... Have you played Seatac lately, it seemed like it was in awesome condition, although that was almost 2 weeks ago now. Must have done some serious growing in that time :slapface: - I remember when I moved here I thought the locals only played it in the winter (rarely saw anyone out there,

Yes, the community owns SeaTac - totally agreed, BUT as I stated the community would likely own nothing if the club hadn't expended the effort to do so. Having been banned from SeaTac by the city, I'm doubting that you could have signed a new contract with them - could be wrong though :puke:

[Wobbly Bob]

These two go together It is Keith alone who is keeping CSI from happening this year. The board decided that I should be able to offer CSI again and take my chances with just what Danni suggested "Let the players decide to play or not". I even made concessions that I did not need to be the TD just keep the weekend*
But Keith decided his wishes alone would rule the day. *other club members offered to run it for Bangerz but were unceremoniously denied.

Let's call a spade a spade!
Not allowing CSI this year is a blatant attempt to kill the :shooting:Cool Shoez Invitational. :confused:

[aksargon14]

I think someone needs to pass the peace pipe so we can all get along! How about them mariners eh!

[Mr. Anderson]

Thanks Getty I too am sadend by the missed CSI this year. Your post got me thinking and I realized that at the 2011 CSI I was out to prove my points, Not celebrate Dan and his life. For this I am truly sorry.

On this note
When I run my next Seatac event it will be called
Legends of the Northwest
In honor of all the Disc Golfers we have ost in the past few years. Not just Dan add Ralphie, Both Daves (McCadden and Crazy) , Chris Hurd and very recently Dale Hamlin.

The old adage as you get older you attend more funerals then weddings

(Let me know if I am reading this wrong)

Jub, are these points that you made last year the reason you are not allowed to host the CSI this year? If you would like to state these points, it might clear up the reasons behind the disagreement. As long as a discussion can be had while using logic and without name-calling it might help bring people together.

I think your idea "Legends of the Northwest" is great. If Disc Golfers know about the history of the sport, it can only help the appreciation for what we now have.

[TreeLove]

Two of my good friends played the last monthly Ace Run and they both won in their respective divisions. What happened next has lead each of them believe everything I’ve ever told them about the guys who own and operate Chainbangerz. My friend took 1st in Open out of 6 people and received $80. Later we saw online that the winner from the prior month took home $100 out of just four players. Interestingly, someone had asked Keith what the payout was gonna be between rounds and he said he didn’t know yet, obviously that’s because it depends on who wins.

The other friend took first in Advanced and took his script promptly over to the shop to redeem. They didn’t have the bag straps he was looking for (no surprise there), so he browsed the used bin. Lo and behold there was one of his leopards (that I gave him as a gift, btw) with his PDGA number written across the top and his name and phone number on the bottom. He never once received a phone call. He tried to make a deal with the guy at the shop, surely they wouldn’t charge him $8 for his own used plastic. OH BUT THEY DID!! He ended up spending $8 of his script on a disc that had all of his info on it.

I do believe my friends have learned their lesson the hard way. I have quietly avoided supporting this company by not playing their tourneys or buying from their store, until now. I won’t be quiet anymore. We are sick of people without integrity running events that don’t better our sport. Chainbangerz fills the calendar with crap tourneys (who wants to ace run when ratings are on the line?) and somehow they were able to “take over” all control of tourneys at Lakewood and Seatac. Their biggest fuck up yet, killing CSI.

CSI (Cool Shoes Invitational, for those of you that don’t remember all the way back to last year) was gaining momentum and notoriety after 12 successful years. When I was down in Santa Cruz at worlds, Devan Owens and Will Schusterick told me they were “coming to Seattle to beat Dave at that stupid little C-tier he always wins.” That may not sound very complimentary to you, but trust me, it’s a big deal. We were going to have legit touring pros coming to play our 13th annual CSI……… If these guys weren’t so dim witted they could have capitalized on the strong foundation already built, they could have made a partnership, instead they selfishly stifled us. How much more are we going to lose to them? I say NO MORE!

“To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.” Abraham Lincoln

Did you approach the TD directly, before postimg on the Internet?

Why are we hearing this from you, and not the affected player?

How does being a high ranked player mean you are contributing to the sport?

Why woud Jub, or anyone, need the permission of ANYONE, except the PDGA and the Park Dept. to run an event? Just do it!

I ran events, and never asked anyone's permission. If you run a good event, word will spread, and people will play. The opposite is also true. My events filled in pre-registration before I retired from TDing.

What is the significance of an event's name? The name does not affect my decusion to. play. I agree with respecting the sport's deceased contributors. But the TD can call it what they want.

[yarmark]

first off give thanx to those who helped make the path to birdies for all of us!

now back to the original post.

i went into the shop wed to redeem my script hopefully. i let thomas know i live over 2 hours away and didn't have the script card with me. he was willing to help me out. Thanx.

i needed some backstraps. but they only carry the entry level ones, which i dont really care for.
i looked for destroyers. none to be seen.
rocs. nope
classic rocs. nope
xd + maybe. nope
must be selling alotta plastic

well.... onto the lost n found
omg my favorite leopard. which i lost at lakewood in the pond.
yes i fd up. i no. i made it go swimmin. ya ya ya
i tried to fish it out. no luck
i lost this disc one month ago with no phone call

there it is!!! sweet! anyone who plays with me, knows i love that leopard( thanx nate). they also know i am a pretty outspoken person.
so when i saw my disc, i said to thomas " hey.... look.... its my favorite leopard. i love this thing. (i did a happy dance too) i so glad to see it. you can see my pdga # right here,( slightly blacked out but legible) and my name and number on the back. ( I even showed you my pdga nuber on the disc and offered to goto my car and show others marked exactly the same)
Well 8$ hugh?"
he simply replied "It happens"
WOW

then i looked on the wall for a couple wall hangers. not alot for me to choose from at a somewhat reasonable price. my total for 3 discs was 70$ plus my used disc for 8$ plus tax. total was 83$ and change. i used the script for 80 and paid the rest in cash.

That IS what happened

i understand running a buisness, and needing to make a profit. but not this way.
i wanted to get my disc back, so i paid the money.

we should be working together to promote the sport, not trying to divide the plahyers.
the way the situation was handled was poorly in my opinion. but again, its my opinion.

the lost and found policy is another post for another time. but i think something needs to change to better adress ALL problems equally.

HELP send our top female disc golfer to Worlds!!!!!
SAVE CSI!!!!! wtf how do we not have Washingtons best tournament this year.

we need to put all personall grudges aside, and do something together for the common greater good of the sport. not just me me me and mine.

NO SOUP FOR CSI!!!!!

o well take it for what its worth.

HAPPY 420 from pdga # 4 420 5

[sillybizz]

first off give thanx to those who helped make the path to birdies for all of us!

now back to the original post.

i went into the shop wed to redeem my script hopefully. i let thomas know i live over 2 hours away and didn't have the script card with me. he was willing to help me out. Thanx.

i needed some backstraps. but they only carry the entry level ones, which i dont really care for.
i looked for destroyers. none to be seen.
rocs. nope
classic rocs. nope
xd + maybe. nope
must be selling alotta plastic

well.... onto the lost n found
omg my favorite leopard. which i lost at lakewood in the pond.
yes i fd up. i no. i made it go swimmin. ya ya ya
i tried to fish it out. no luck
i lost this disc one month ago with no phone call

there it is!!! sweet! anyone who plays with me, knows i love that leopard( thanx nate). they also know i am a pretty outspoken person.
so when i saw my disc, i said to thomas " hey.... look.... its my favorite leopard. i love this thing. (i did a happy dance too) i so glad to see it. you can see my pdga # right here,( slightly blacked out but legible) and my name and number on the back. ( I even showed you my pdga nuber on the disc and offered to goto my car and show others marked exactly the same)
Well 8$ hugh?"
he simply replied "It happens"
WOW

then i looked on the wall for a couple wall hangers. not alot for me to choose from at a somewhat reasonable price. my total for 3 discs was 70$ plus my used disc for 8$ plus tax. total was 83$ and change. i used the script for 80 and paid the rest in cash.

That IS what happened

i understand running a buisness, and needing to make a profit. but not this way.
i wanted to get my disc back, so i paid the money.

we should be working together to promote the sport, not trying to divide the plahyers.
the way the situation was handled was poorly in my opinion. but again, its my opinion.

Actually your total was $75 for wall discs and then $8 for a total of $83. What I did was not charge tax for you for your scrip and then I ran the extra $3 you owed as a used disc and tax is put on that. You paid a total of $3.29 after tax. I do remember you saying something along those lines but my mind did that not make the jump that the used disc you were getting was what you were talking about. I have a lot of conversations throughout my day where people tell me/ask me about lost & found discs and how they get there and how peoples names are on them, etc. I guess I did not understand that was what you were talking about and I apologize. You should have been nice about it and made a bigger deal about it when buying it and I would have made it right for you. We could have settled this communication error in a much more sound way than you complaining and having one of your friends whine here on the forums.

If you were called an didn't get it on time that's your fault but I would have made it right anyway, if someone else turned it in and scratched out your name I would have made it right. You could have been more vocal about it while here or called me on the phone or sent me a message here, there are lots of better ways of dealing with this issue than the way you have dealt with it. I'm sorry you had to pay for your own disc, Mark and I apologize that I didn't get that while you were in and yes it could have been handled better by both of us.

[wilt]

I am a Lakewood local. I have played Lakewood 2-5 times a week for the last 10 years or so. I don't understand why all the bashing on Keith and Chainbangers. When the course was being changed and Keith was taking over I was intially concerned. Mostly because of fear of change and the unknown I suppose. However I soon discovered that those concerns were unfounded. As far I can tell Keith (and his group) are stand up individuals that love disc and want to make things better for other disc golfers. When all the work and new teepads were going in I will say that I saw Keith, by himself, working a LOT more than I saw any other people out there working. That is not to say others didn't help. I did see many others out there working but I SAW KEITH WORKING ALONE MUCH MORE. This by itself elevated my perception of Keith to someone that really does care about disc golf.

Next encounter with Keith directly was when I purchased a disc from the shop. I had played a few rounds with it and realized that I didn't really like it. I metioned this to Keith when I stopped by the shop and he asks me if I would like to trade it in for something else. I don't remember the exact details now, like I had to throw in a couple of bucks maybe, but WOW where else would do this for you?! I couldn't believe it. Keith now elevated to superstar status in my mind. Is this something a scammer or some just concerned with money would do?

As far as I'm concerned Lakewood is a great course, not the same as it was but it was going to change regardless. I believe it has likely ended up far, far better than it would have without Keith taking over. So, really if you somehow think Keith is a scammer or trying to mess things up you should re-examine your information. You're barking up the wrong tree.

Thanks for all your hard work Keith! I definitely appreciate it. Don't let the haters get to you. Haters gonna hate!!


I can't comment on Seatac or tournaments since I don't play either any more.


also, yes please bring back Lakewood Open. I want a three round tourney at Lakewood. I would play that tournament.

[LJ Jubner]

Yeah, its not like as a direct result of his efforts, the city for the first time since the course was installed actually mowed the fairways... Have you played Seatac lately, it seemed like it was in awesome condition, although that was almost 2 weeks ago now. Must have done some serious growing in that time :slapface: - I remember when I moved here I thought the locals only played it in the winter (rarely saw anyone out there,

Yes, the community owns SeaTac - totally agreed, BUT as I stated the community would likely own nothing if the club hadn't expended the effort to do so. Having been banned from SeaTac by the city, I'm doubting that you could have signed a new contract with them - could be wrong though :puke:

Yeah getting the P/R to mow is a challenge. The first two years SeaTac was open Clements had 45 min 3-4 timer/week to give to the course. Since the shake up and the reduction of worker hrs the course has had to rely on the golfers to keep it up.

I was actually out last Sun before the work party. Two weeks before Erick and I worked about 4 hrs on 15 pin and 16 near the marker/junipers. Two weeks before that Erick and I 2 hrs worked on the 7 green and all the dead sticks. Not the last time CMC and I played but the three or four times before that we emptied all the trash. like I said WHILE WE PLAYED!!!!

Banned by the city that's a good one. No! it was actually herm who tried to ban me for planting colored stones as distance markers.

So I guess that (if I am banned then) I must be a sucker for still giving to someplace I am clearly not wanted.

John in a nut shell


Split weekends
AM's no problems Paid $3/player first installment on the loan $150 cash in Keiths hand
Open Sat no problem even though payout was posted $6/player fee
Cut leaders got times Men, Ladies and Masters rest played but crack early in pool
Expose hypocrisy Remind Open what it was like to be an AM and have the TD make money of them (about $300 each weekend)
Paid $3/player second installment on the loan $168 cash in Keith's hand ( $320 8% of the $4K in two weekends)


2010 INWS Basket raffle
Depot and Bangerz split cost of prize $200 each I paid for the 1000 tickets $75
Depot sold $200 worth of tickets remitted the money to the series. (Check)
Bangerz sold $175 worth of tickets remitted the money to the series (Check)
Series sold $255 worth of raffle tickets remitted the money to the series (cash) For a total of $630 raised prior to he finals.

Series issues checks ($315) to both Depot and Bangerz as a cash receipt for the entire promotion. Both remits $315 check back to series as third part of write off.
Bangerz Initial cost of $200 + $175 for sales + $315 for promotion
Not Counting the $200 investment he was able to write off $495 or 2.5 to 1 on his investment. The number for Depot are basically the same (+$25)

2010 CSI Vendor Flymart/Scrip $200 investment got one $65 entry and nearly $700 in scrip. Sales for the weekend are unknown.

[chainbanger'z]

Two of my good friends played the last monthly Ace Run and they both won in their respective divisions. What happened next has lead each of them believe everything I’ve ever told them about the guys who own and operate Chainbangerz. My friend took 1st in Open out of 6 people and received $80. Later we saw online that the winner from the prior month took home $100 out of just four players. Interestingly, someone had asked Keith what the payout was gonna be between rounds and he said he didn’t know yet, obviously that’s because it depends on who wins.

The other friend took first in Advanced and took his script promptly over to the shop to redeem. They didn’t have the bag straps he was looking for (no surprise there), so he browsed the used bin. Lo and behold there was one of his leopards (that I gave him as a gift, btw) with his PDGA number written across the top and his name and phone number on the bottom. He never once received a phone call. He tried to make a deal with the guy at the shop, surely they wouldn’t charge him $8 for his own used plastic. OH BUT THEY DID!! He ended up spending $8 of his script on a disc that had all of his info on it.

I do believe my friends have learned their lesson the hard way. I have quietly avoided supporting this company by not playing their tourneys or buying from their store, until now. I won’t be quiet anymore. We are sick of people without integrity running events that don’t better our sport. Chainbangerz fills the calendar with crap tourneys (who wants to ace run when ratings are on the line?) and somehow they were able to “take over” all control of tourneys at Lakewood and Seatac. Their biggest fuck up yet, killing CSI.

CSI (Cool Shoes Invitational, for those of you that don’t remember all the way back to last year) was gaining momentum and notoriety after 12 successful years. When I was down in Santa Cruz at worlds, Devan Owens and Will Schusterick told me they were “coming to Seattle to beat Dave at that stupid little C-tier he always wins.” That may not sound very complimentary to you, but trust me, it’s a big deal. We were going to have legit touring pros coming to play our 13th annual CSI……… If these guys weren’t so dim witted they could have capitalized on the strong foundation already built, they could have made a partnership, instead they selfishly stifled us. How much more are we going to lose to them? I say NO MORE!

“To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men.” Abraham Lincoln


Jessie,

Let me first say this: I wish you the best of luck at worlds.
I mean who better to represent the state then you right? You play so well,and you have so much potential to be a positive role model for all the up and comers,male and female alike. More so female as we need more ladies on the course,and more importantly we need all to feel welcome into disc golf. So with this kind of position I would hope that you wouldn't abuse it.
For real, from an outside perspective how does if look when you write posts like this for Disc Golf as a whole?
Even though you have openly expressed on a public forum your hatred towards Chainbangerz we have been supportive of letting all our customers at both shops,and courses,know about your event, even though its on the same day as one of ours,and you have openly admitted you do not and will not support our events and our shop. I hope it fills up, it looks like it will and I hope plenty of money is raised as it is expensive to travel. I noticed allot of chainbanger team members are coming out to support as well as chainbanger supporters so thanks for all that guys.

As far as the $20 diference in payment for the L.A.R.C. here is why:
BTW,thats great that your curious.But I do think its funny how Aaron, or Mark seemed to be OK with this, or else I would have thought that they would express their concerns to me in person.
REASON:
All of the Chainbanger Disc Golf Club events,and the Lakewood Ace Run Challenge events have been part of the Competition Endowment Program.
What this means is that the $10 non current PDGA member fees have the option to be waived as well as sanctioning fees. When I ran the first two there was some misunderstandings with PDGA and that was clearly my fault. So for the first two events that money went straight to payout,and came out of my pocket, but went right back into the charity I chose to receive. Discovering Open Spaces.
When the 3rd event came to be,those fees went right to the charity.
So......thats the $20 difference.
I have been lucky enough to raise $900 for the disc golf community so far using this program. It empowers non profits to raise funds that the PDGA normally charge TD's to run events.

Of that money raised I was going to ask the club if they felt we should donate some,if not all of it,to you. I'll put it up for vote and see how the the current members feel. I personally feel you could use the money. North Carolina is pretty far without support to travel,and can be spendy. Regardless of your opinions about me and Chainbangerz Disc Golf Shop and club.

Before you start talking about integrity for the sport, I would suggest getting all your facts straight. I think there is enough walls being built, where we need to start breaking them down. I feel that when you limt yourself or anyone else to chose sides,and have factions,it really stunts any kind of growth for us all. I try to see the big picture and hope that others who feel passionate enough about the growth,can as well.
But once again everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion.

For Lakewood and Seatac I felt that having strong written contracts in place empower the disc golf community .As well as add security for the longevity of disc golf courses in both parks. Something no one else has had,or thought of before. A contract stating that WE the Disc Golfers are in fact stakeholders instead of just some loose verbal agreement stating such. So that when an organization, like TAF,comes along that we can put our foot down and say NO! We are not supportive of loosing any more courses or holes for that matter,on any given course.

For any events,come talk to me.I am always open to any and all ideas. Especially new and fresh ones. I am in one or two places, my house or chainbangerz. oh occasionally you can find me on the courses,if I'm not working I may be throwing,which you are always welcome to join me.

As far as CSI goes, Jub is the only one to blame for that. His shady way of doing business has burnt any bridge with me, as well as most of the disc golf community.
Since this post is long enough I will address that elsewhere. For now I have to get back to calling people who have gotten discs turned in.

Thanks to all the supporters.

[Wes Hansen]

GREAT POST, from the standpoint of an outsider.
Lots of great info, respectful and way more tolerant than I think most people would be.
Hopefully it gives several folks pause.

(ps. donate the money to a course, not to send a DGer on vacation.)

[cefire]

(ps. donate the money to a course, not to send a DGer on vacation.)

THIS!

[Scott]

I don't understand all of the venom surrounding a fundraiser to cover expenses for a trip to Worlds. I don't see a problem with it as long as she is upfront about what she's raising money for. People can choose to support her by whether or not they attend the event. By the sounds of it, they are. Don't like it? Fine - you can choose not to go. But I certainly don't begrudge her for trying. Hell, I was thinking about running a similar event for a similar purpose in the next year or so.

And it's not like this is unprecedented. Wasn't there a fundraiser at Milo to send someone to USDGC a couple of years ago?

[ski2man]

Lots of venom on this thread....does anyone want me to ask a dumbass question to relieve the tension?

This is my M.O. after all. peace, love, and disc golf.:cheers:

[Wes Hansen]

I don't understand all of the venom surrounding a fundraiser to cover expenses for a trip to Worlds.

I for one (am I taking this wrong because it was so close to my post) never said anything was wrong with a self-fundraiser. Great if it flies.

I simply said (or hoped to imply) that a different entity with DG funds to spare might better serve the community by applying that money to a course rather than an individual.

Hopefully that didn't come across as venomous- since I'd be hard pressed to figure how to interpret it that way.

[emmarose]

I for one (am I taking this wrong because it was so close to my post) never said anything was wrong with a self-fundraiser. Great if it flies.

I simply said (or hoped to imply) that a different entity with DG funds to spare might better serve the community by applying that money to a course rather than an individual.

Hopefully that didn't come across as venomous- since I'd be hard pressed to figure how to interpret it that way.

maybe not venemous, but came across as pretty derisive... and made me sure feel like an asshole asking for help (and getting it) from a ton of people in this community to help make my first ever trip to World's possible last year... luckily i got over that feeling pretty quickly and was reminded of how great and generous and caring and fun the vast majority of the disc golf community is.

[Wes Hansen]

I am truly sorry that you felt that my statement was derisive.
I repeat that I did not say a fundraiser for a person was bad. Ever.

I hope this thread returns to its previously more interesting discussion.

Having reread a lot of this thread I think everything is Sillybizz's fault. He's a known troublemaker. Not to mention I believe he openly confessed to robbing Washington of needed tax revenue.

[Scott]

maybe not venemous, but came across as pretty derisive...

Thanks Emma for saying it better than I did.

[cefire]

Yeah, totally agree Scott - its all above board and folks are free to play as they wish. My personal preference is that if we are fundraising, we do so for food banks, course needs, club needs, or other non-profit missions. IMO, these seem like much higher priority than sending someone to worlds - when I've gone to worlds or usdgc etc. I've always paid for it and wouldn't have accepted donations even if offered but totally personal preference.

P.S. - Sounds like Sheila and I will be running a charity PDGA event this summer for a women's rights non-profit yet to be determined :) - Get yer blizzards ready, cause the Sudoku showdown is gonna be back!

[sillybizz]

Having reread a lot of this thread I think everything is Sillybizz's fault. He's a known troublemaker. Not to mention I believe he openly confessed to robbing Washington of needed tax revenue.

You sir are on Dan Savage's list! Watch yourself Captain America!

P.S. I'm glad you picked an avatar, I remember people on here better by avatars than names. :)

[TYVEK]

I don't understand all of the venom surrounding a fundraiser to cover expenses for a trip to Worlds. I don't see a problem with it as long as she is upfront about what she's raising money for. People can choose to support her by whether or not they attend the event. By the sounds of it, they are. Don't like it? Fine - you can choose not to go. But I certainly don't begrudge her for trying. Hell, I was thinking about running a similar event for a similar purpose in the next year or so.

And it's not like this is unprecedented. Wasn't there a fundraiser at Milo to send someone to USDGC a couple of years ago?


I totally agree, a few years ago down here in olympia we held a fundraiser to send Chandler Fry to worlds and NO ONE complained about that.
i think local fundraiser tournaments for a local to the region that has the potential to do well at worlds is great.

[cefire]

Why is it great? (Was it better than holding a fundraiser for new tee signs at Steily or for improvements at the oly course?)

[sillybizz]

Why is it great? (Was it better than holding a fundraiser for new tee signs at Steily or for improvements at the oly course?)

Exactly. I would be much more willing to play and donate my time and money to something that actually benefits the course and I'm even more willing to do all of those things when it's done for a charity.

[Matt B.]

I don't understand all of the venom surrounding a fundraiser to cover expenses for a trip to Worlds. I don't see a problem with it as long as she is upfront about what she's raising money for. People can choose to support her by whether or not they attend the event. By the sounds of it, they are. Don't like it? Fine - you can choose not to go. But I certainly don't begrudge her for trying. Hell, I was thinking about running a similar event for a similar purpose in the next year or so.

And it's not like this is unprecedented. Wasn't there a fundraiser at Milo to send someone to USDGC a couple of years ago?

I'm guessing the amount of venom unleashed by the original poster has a lot to do with the subsequent tone of the thread.

[TYVEK]

Why is it great? (Was it better than holding a fundraiser for new tee signs at Steily or for improvements at the oly course?)

why is it great?! you really have to ask that? Not everybody can afford to go to worlds. if there is somebody that has the potential to do well at worlds and cant afford to go, why wouldnt the disc golf community gather around to help them out so they can represent our region???

its not just about the "community" its about the individuals that make up that community as well. its best not to lose sight of that.

[SPIDER-DAN]

Its not like every fundraiser that is scheduled is for someone to go to worlds.......it does not happen that often so why not support it............i certainly am.

Team disc golf was already established why the event(s) was happening and it was clearing stated by chris, sam and others. Im sure if they said we are going to play 7 events and the money raised was going to go to one individual it most certainly would not set well. This is one fundraiser one time just like it was done for other pro players in the past without any complaints...... So why is there such a bitch session now........ Maybe some of you should set your extreme prejudices aside and practice what you are preaching.

Just because someone expresses a concern on the forum does not necessary mean they deserve a backlash. Maybe we all (myself included) should try to be more proactive and not so reactive. Im sure chainbangerz do alot of good things for disc golf and the lakewood park just as chris, sam, morgan and others have done with team disc golf. Mark kilmer has done so much for disc golf that most of you may not even know and continues to do so. There are so many other people to mention, but i am sure you get the picture.

It all started with a concern about the lost and found policy and that it may be encourging some inappropiate behavior by individuals for porfit. Just maybe the concern was to re-evaluate the policy to see if there was a way to stop the hoarding of lost discs, lost discs from other courses that have drop boxes making there way up to chainbangerz and other unethical actions by other disc golfers. Im sure the initial intent of the program had the best interest of the players in ming by getting thier lost discs back to them, but maybe there is a flaw. I dont know....... Just putting it out there.

I just hoping my post will end this thread so we can get back on track and support our clubs, support other players and tactfully list concerns without the heavy load of reactive negative comments. God knows i will also try hard myself....... We are after all human.

[yarmark]

ce dan is the man....

Fundraising is a bad thing? Really? Wtf? unless it directly benefits you and your course. Oh! ok! that makes sense. yep

unfortunately, i dont know many disc golfers who are financially well off.
Not every talented proffessional athelete has the financial means to be able to attend, and compete, in an event such as the USDGC. not all of them are tourring pros. most have a full time job and a family. Not to mention a fat dog on the couch.

i want to support the best golfers that Wa has to offer. I want our reps to do well at worlds.
JESSIE Arron Holley Bjorrrno BIG DAWG and all others
Peace of Mind is invaluble during copetition. to help them in any way, makes me feel good!
Everyone needs help on their climb to the top!!!!

To support or not support an event is your choice. But to be outspoken against fundraising speaks to the level of your intelligence and your outlook on the future of this sport. It also leads me to believe you never excelled in any individual or team sport, at a level above high school. Top level athletics, in any sport, at any age, is not cheap!

I cant believe people actually think this way.

I have personally takin part in over 500 fundraising event over the years. Most of which were to help send my baseball team, or a friends baseball team, to a natioal event ( my teams played at least 4 nat. events every year for 8+ years). To send an entire team anywhere takes a sh**ton of $.
Everyone works together. some give time and energy. some give money. others give their support in any way they can. We all felt a sense of togetherness when greatness was achieved.
I know i will SMILE when i hear Jessie finnishes top 25 in the WORLD!!! AGAIN!!!!!!
WHHHHOOORRRRDDDDDAYYYYYYYY if they aint b knowin, they will soon enough

You never got a car wash to send the kids to nationals?
I have two friends right now, trying to help raise money. One, to get their daughter to nationals for softball, and one whos son is on a tourring baseball team.
i will gladly do what i can to help.
but...... it doesn't help MY course hahahha

would you protest the "Car wash" to send an individual, or team to nationals?
i won't support you. your family should be able to pay for you. otherwise you just shouldn't play.
what about the fundraisers for our Olympic competitors. Every two years we hear wonderful stories of communities working together to send a local to Bejing( or wherever) to rep USA.
That is what its about.
its not a life or death situation, but it is a life changing experience.
we should all feel a sense of accomplishment when those we know, love, and support, achieve greatness.
When they do well, our sport does well (and i get my $ back just kidding)

I remember the Chandler Fry event, and the Crabtree event. No outspoken haters there!!!!!!
And why should there be any?
I will support all of them again this year

spport your local course, players, tournaments, and DISC GOLF!

quit b#tchn and help better the sport

[Simmeltron]

support your local course, players, tournaments, and DISC GOLF!

quit b#tchn and help better the sport

Sounds good to me!! :cheers:

[cefire]

I think you perhaps miss my point, fundraising for an individual is perfectly fine, but let us recognize that it is for one person (am I missing something in making this assumption?). No venom here, I hope everyone who goes does awesome at worlds and has a fun time! :trophy: As I stated (and perhaps you missed) in my previous post, for me this is a question of priorities. My personal priorities are for course repair and improvement, not necessarily my own course (as I very rarely play Steili/Oly, again mentioned in my post, but sounds like you missed this as well), but ANY course... These priorities take precedence over funding vacations for others or for myself - I understand the reasoning behind it, but I strongly feel we (all of Washington/Oregon) have far greater needs than sending a 'representative' to some tournament.

Several of the recent tournaments I've run, I've added a sign-up requirement of attending at least ONE work party in the previous entire year, or run a tournament, or doubles, or pretty much ANYTHING that would benefit a cause larger than oneself. You can imagine how OP and many others fared on this criterion. I guess I miss the part where 'representing' well at a tournament keeps the courses clean and well-kempt...

Fortunately, a small and dedicated group of individuals continue to labor behind the scenes to get the real work done.

P.S. - Starter on my varsity soccer and tennis teams in college (these are team sports no?), multiple qualifications for USDGC (didn't have the $$, instead of fundraising for myself, fundraised for new baskets at Hawk Hollow (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=3252) - still satisfied with this choice :) ), last year put up $2,000 to keep SeaTac in the ground, ran 20+ tournaments in Seattle over 2 years living there (including annual fundraisers for NW Harvest Food Bank, fundraisers for SeaTac and Lakewood improvements, and a scorepoint scoreboard since no TD's in the area had access to one) I guess it is just sour grapes eh, or shall I continue...?

Now I see that I should have focused more on my 'climb to the top' and griping about payouts rather than trying to help out the larger community of golfers - still haven't learned my lesson though, we'll be TD'ing two more PDGA tourneys this summer - hope y'all can come, or boycott, whatever you please :cheers:

[jeffmonty]

I've read with interest both sides of this debate. Most have stated their side more elegantly than I could.
If I had a friend trying to get to Worlds, I would want to try to help them out. If it was someone I didn't know, not so much.

That said, I have to support cefire's point of view, for the OVERALL good of the sport. Clubs will always have problems funding course improvements, and we all hear complaints of poor teepads, lack of signage, stolen baskets, never mind trying to fund new courses.
I wish the lady well. I'm sure she'll make it to Worlds, no problem. :chug:

Also, cefire, thanks for all you've done!!

[SPIDER-DAN]

Seriously?

I have attended fundraisers to help Lakewood and Seatac. I have donated quite a few $$$ of my own and winnings to purchase baskets at several different courses and raissed $$$ from disc sales from my own personal stash to help courses and clubs.

I have also donated $$$ and discs to help someone go to worlds or the USDGC. Why cant both be done? Can anyone really tell me that? I would really like to hear your reasons..........cause all I am hearing is one sided, narrow-minded excuses.

Like I said before.........it is one fundraiser to help someone have a good time at worlds. Then we as a whole can continue to go back and hold fundraisers for the course...........or is that too much to ask?

[cefire]

I'd be more than happy to help out with a fundraiser for you Dan, Keith, Rideout, Gilberts, or Kilmer (maybe even Jub :) ), or any of the other awesome folks in the area who are putting in way more than their fair share, cheers to you all!!!
:cheers:


I'm less inclined to do so for 'do-nothings' who complain that the 'do-ers' aren't 'do-ing' enough for them... (e.g., post #1 :headbang:)




P.S. - getting back to the original topic, a quick look shows that there was $120 total in the pro purse the day in question, how is $80 for first not awesome? Is it simply the comparison when the whole purse was paid out to first place in the previous month (as in the PDGA payout guidelines for 4 players)?

Anyone who has run PDGA tournaments with small fields understands this requirement for pro fields, I think:
If 4 or less, winner take all.
If 5 or more, payout to two places.

Perhaps I'm missing something, or perhaps PDGA TD guidelines and/or math are not a strong suit...or maybe there is a massive conspiracy underfoot!

[LJ Jubner]

I'd be more than happy to help out with a fundraiser for you Dan, Keith, Rideout, Gilberts, or Kilmer (maybe even Jub :) ), or any of the other awesome folks in the area who are putting in way more than their fair share, cheers to you all!!!
:cheers:...

Thanks Andrew
I know you run quality events and have led with your heart here. And I know you have your doubts with some of the decisions made. Sheila and a weed eater is still a fond memory.

I figured out why this topic is so important, It shows we (as a state) need to discuss and heaven forbid coordinate all our efforts towards our common goal. I seriously doubt we are too far apart on any subject

Why else would the tone be so confrontational?
Because everyone is frustrated. Keith (et al) has one agenda, same with Mark and I and Jessie spoke for the players. Then there are the silent two groups whos agendas are undeclared but seem pretty obvious.

IMNSHO biggest point of confusion
The line between Bangerz the club and Bangerz the Business

[cefire]

Keith (et al) has one agenda, same with Mark and I and Jessie spoke for the players. Then there are the silent two groups whos agendas are undeclared but seem pretty obvious.

IMNSHO biggest point of confusion
The line between Bangerz the club and Bangerz the Business

First off, thanks Jub :)

I'm still not getting the whole different agendas thing; 'players' versus who exactly? Am I a 'player' or in one of the other groups because I thought I was a player too!?! Silent groups? We all might need to be more clear about that going forward.

Regarding the payout (non-)issue (see above post); we might want to bring it up with PDGA for more flexibility in the payout structure, if that is what we want, and then propose solutions for how to payout in a 4 person field. I'm fine with the way PDGA has it set up at the moment and if anything, I'd be happy to pay 2/4 with a smaller, fatter payout rather than winner take all in that scenario.

And yep, I advocated strongly at the time for different names for club/shop for this reason among others :)

P.S. - What does IMNSHO mean? :)

I guess I've said what I had to say about this whole deal - just PM me if you have a question and see y'all this summer!

[LJ Jubner]

First off, thanks Jub :)

I'm still not getting the whole different agendas thing; 'players' versus who exactly? Am I a 'player' or in one of the other groups because I thought I was a player too!?! Silent groups? We all might need to be more clear about that going forward.

Agenda might be to harsh of a word for the players viewpoint (yes you are a player just like me your just much better)
Silent Groups are the Tri Cities club (not to be confused with the Columbia River Club) and the Bud Pell. Peninsula group. We are working with some West Sounders to help bridge thsi gap.

[QUOTE=cefire;118980]P.S. - What does IMNSHO mean?QUOTE]
In My Not So Humble Opinion

[PuttsRrad]

awesome

[SheilaT]

There are no groups here Jub. This is a debate on several issues, with individuals making different arguments based on their personal beliefs (with no regards as to where they're from or which club they belong to). There are several points that are being debated here:


Chainbangerz shop is evil and is out to scam all golfers.
It sounds like there's a pretty near consensus here that the shop tries its best to do the right thing for golfers. As with anything that deals with large quantities, sorting through the many many lost discs that are turned in can be daunting. A few will be missed, and this may not necessarily be malicious or intentional. The key part is providing the incentive for golfers to turn in found discs while not trying to 'game' the system, and this is a very difficult line to tread. I've heard of people finding discs and not turning them in or calling people until the shop reinstates the credit system. We should be turning discs in because they don't belong to us, instead of trying to capitalize on other people's loss.
There's also the issue of payouts. This results more from players not understanding the rules that TDs have to follow to run tournaments. The more discussion we have about this the better informed players can be.
The shop itself donates to many of the tournaments, whether for player's packs, CTP prizes, or straight out cash. So it makes it very hard to argue that the shop is 'out to get' the golfers in WA. And yes, the shop is financially separate from the club, despite having many of the same participants. The club has fought not only to keep Seatac on the ground, but also to expand it to 27 holes. The club has also supported the addition of 6 holes at Lakewood after it lost 6 of the upper holes. All of this has been done by running smaller experimental tournaments centered at having fun while fundraising. The club has been extremely grateful to everyone that has participated and supported these events. And these people can now take pride in the fact that they helped save Seattle's premier courses. For people who boycott these tourments, well, they have their own priorities.
Fundraising issues
Most of the people here have supported fundraising tournaments because we are a grass-roots community that supports our own growth (Yay us!! :trophy:). However, the argument that all fundraisers are equal is hard to accept. Spider-Dan, if everyone was like you and can be generous about everything and to all players, then this argument is moot point. But not everyone is able/willing to give their all. And many people who do give back to the community have to prioritize what they can support. For some, it's supporting their friends to play. For others, it's donating to the course, For yet others, it's using disc golf to help the homeless or other charities. And it's a personal choice. Kudos to everyone who do support fundraising tournaments because it's their own personal way of giving back. No matter what they choose to support, at least they gave back. Unlike people who boycott any/all fundraising tournaments because they get nothing out of it.
What does it mean to "do something for the sport"?
The key argument here is who the beneficiary is. For anything that we golfers do, we can always ask who/what benefits out of this action. A player can practice, play casual games with friends, go to tournaments, etc, and most of the time these actions primarily benefit himself/herself. At least it's very hard to argue how one player's game can benefit the rest of the community.
What actions benefit the rest of the community? It can be as small as carrying your own trash out of the course and not leaving it for someone else to pick up. Or cleaning up the course by picking other's trash. Or POLITELY informing new players the etiquette of disc golf play. Or being the bridge between discgolfers and the larger community. How about participating in work parties? Playing in fundraising tournaments? Running tournaments? All of these things benefit everyone else, including the person doing these actions. THIS is how you do something for the sport. Thankfully, there are always dedicated individuals who do all of these things for everyone else's benefit because if there wasn't, I'd be ashamed to call myself a disc golfer.

[cefire]

Wow, I might be biased because I'm your fiancé but that was beautiful!

[EnigmaSquad]

Thanks Andrew
Why else would the tone be so confrontational?
Because everyone is frustrated. Keith (et al) has one agenda, same with Mark and I and Jessie spoke for the players. Then there are the silent two groups whos agendas are undeclared but seem pretty obvious.



Sorry Jub, I cannot let this statement stand without some clarification...
As a member of the board of West Sound I am asking you what our "undeclared but pretty obvious" agenda is.

[yarmark]

cefire, i understand you have run events. thanx for all you have done.

about the payout. ask keith. a mistake was made. problem fixed. i doubt it will happen again
(and i dont think it was done on purpose)
but mistakes happen. its upto all of us to adress the problem in a better way, and do what we can to rectify the situation.

also i would like to clarify- Jessie is NOT, let me repeat,
Jessie is NOT hosting her own fundraiser to go to worlds!

WE, her friends and community, are hosting FOR HER!!!!!
I think i needed to state this point clearly.

CE i really dont understand your thinking, especially with your background. But that's what makes us individuals. I dont understand why it is so difficult for ANY td to support another persons attempt to run an event. Especially when the event has so much support already.
to speak that individual fundraisers, are somehow morally innapropriate ( i know, your priorities, but that's how i took your post cefire) is bs to me. it is the individualls choice to donate or not donate.
NOBODY should speak out in protest of such an event.
Multiple fundraisers are possible.
I can't wait to see how nice Terrace Creek will be after Jessies fundraiser.
In my eyes it will be similar to a GIANT work party. I know that the people in attendance will do their best to keep Terrace clean.

At first i thought your point of view was somewhat valid, just different sides of the fence. Now i think it is more of a personal nature. Maybe im wrong. But i hope to hear that you are as outspoken against someone else trying to raise money to goto worlds, as well. Or for any individual agenda, that does not benifit the many.
i could say more....

i just wish all the people who have been pilars in the disc golf community would work together.
jub (mooooooose), keith, cefire, and others..... u should all get together n smoke one(or two) and have a players party this year. Get alll the vendors, and have a mini tournament or something new. I know it wont happen, but just a thought.

O ya, thanx kieth! I appriciate you makin the situation right with my leopard.
My lost disc, that couldnt swim, was returned to me. I paid 8$ at the shop for that disc, later kieth refunded the cost of the disc. Thank you! its not the $, in the principle. Actions like this, help build a better standing in the community.

sometimes a little good goes a long way. But the negativity needs to quit.

[cefire]

Thanks yarmark, I have indeed said the same about similar recent fundraisers (including those sponsored by Chainbangerz) for others going to Worlds/USDGC who IMHO were likewise not full contributors. The reason this was more vocal is because of the undeserved criticisms leveled in the OP.

See ya on the course buddy :)

[yarmark]

then we can agree to disagree!
ill be on the course tryin to find my putt

[yarmark]

puttsrad wow go smoke, ill give you some if your out. get your facts straight before calling people liars. i will only respond to points 7 8 9.

7. yes, i personaly told Jessie. I made it her buisness
8. who are you? when did we speak?
i have told all parties envolved the exact same story. Nothing different. ask jessie what i said, ask kieth, ask aaron holley, or eric edge. get your facts correct and don't put words in my mouth. My own foot fits fine, thank you.
9. i did NOT recieve a phone call. My name and number were blacked out for the most part.
when was it was done? who knows... lets hope we find a solution somehow to the lost and found problem that is currently in place.

get your own facts straight before calling others liars!

[PuttsRrad]

whatever

[Scott]

i did NOT recieve a phone call. My name and number were blacked out for the most part.
when was it was done? who knows...

It seems possible that your name and number were blacked out before the disc was returned to Chainbangerz.

Someone finds the disc and claims it as their own. They lose it and it gets turned in.

Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

[yarmark]

yep. that totally could have happened. i know it happens all the time, and it will happen again.
i just dont appriciate others using my experience, then misquoting the facts. putsrad!!!
well... im just curious what story did you hear? and from whom? being that i have told many people different stories and all.

[PuttsRrad]

yamark - :)

[yarmark]

NO
you are the one that said " mark cetainly told a different story" (and what multiple stories have i told?)
I will not be quiet when my words and actions are misrepresented by others.
once again. who are you? when did we talk? i would love to know.

Get your facts straight before you question my integrity.

I have talked to multiple people on this subject. never once have i changed my story.
Jessie and kieth both heard the EXACT same story from me. Both have different opinions on the matter tho. hahahahah

What a great way to be an advocate for chainbangerz! lets preach negativity and inflate the facts. great job. way to go. keep up the good work.

Im glad to see that cefire can back up his thoughts, and actions, with intelligent and just reasons.

how about you puttsrad?
lets hear it!
You opened this can of worms

[PuttsRrad]

yamark - :)

[Sam]

PuttsRrad.... you have not put your real name in your profile. Please understand that we have made a decision to not let people post here anonymously. Please correct within 24 hours or face account suspension.
Sincerely,
Your Disc Golf Forum Overlords

[PuttsRrad]

Okay Sam. Update complete.

[Sam]

:)
So glad you are here.

[PuttsRrad]

yarmark doesn't have a profile either SAM. lol

[PuttsRrad]

thanks SAM - for the welcome back! :) Hope you are well.

[PuttsRrad]

LOL - Mark, I just talked with you at Lakewood yesterday? Saturday? - LOL

[Sam]

yarmark doesn't have a profile either SAM. lol

Yeah he does. Checked that when I saw yours. :)

Click on their name and then on the About Me tab.

[PuttsRrad]

thanks! LOL