Sekani Process

[LJ Jubner]

I thought this needed a new start.

Right now Jeremy has a working concept for the property. 2x18
Gordy has proposed a Tom Schot.

Anybody else have any ideas?

Each design should offer as many different configuration as possible.
two 18's, one 27, some sort of shorter version. super duper pooper scooper long

Is there some sort of deadline?


"2012 SDGA membership?"
" Makes a great X-Mas gift!"

[Sean Johnson]

Just to clarify something- the designs that are currently laid out are actually the product of both Jeremy and Jeff Crum. Just sayin'

I personally would prefer a 2x18 layout. There was more than enough property for the two 18-hole layouts before they gave us another 40 acres to work with. As stated by others before, it would be especially advantageous to have two courses during tournaments. Two pools could mean faster play and better flow during small tournaments and it could also make hosting large tournaments easier from a logistical standpoint. I also like the idea of an easier, more accessible course that would occupy the chuckers on busy days, leaving the gold-level upper course empty for the rest of us.

I do wonder about the interaction with the bikers on the lower portion of the Jamboree course. If we start the Jam course any further up the hill, it will not appeal to as many people, but if we try and mesh with the bike trails too much, we might have some conflicts down the road. I am not saying that we should give up on the lower portion, I just think that we should proceed carefully in that area as there seems to be a higher density of trails.

The upper course should be both physically and technically punishing; the kind of course that builds a fearsome reputation for crushing scores, bodies, and dreams during tournaments. Use of elevation should be the top consideration when designing a hole, as well as sloping greens and fairways. I'd like to see holes with a good view off of teepad and at the basket.

Both courses should be safe, balanced, and incorporate as much variety as possible. If possible, the courses should be designed with alternate pin placements/teepads in mind and not just be an afterthought. Speaking of teepads- are we really considering concrete? I'm all for some nice pads, but damn that's a big hill!

[Gordy #21004]

According to the Parks Dept the first step in the process will be for the Bike Club and the SDGA to have all their set-backs, limitations and exclusions all laid out and all above board. The Parks Dept. will also have it's own list of exclusions. Some of these are known at present and some are not. The biggest exclusion coming from the Parks Dept. involves the main green area. That excluded area includes the large green, the 200' or so of the forest that leads up to the first line of rock outcroppings and the rock outcroppings themselves which will be a climbing area. The area just to the west of the large green will be dedicated to an archery range to be built in 2013 and is not available to us. Further, the 40 acres referred to by Sean above is only an option of last resort. It is by no means pledged to us at this time. The Parks Dept. has not yet asked for this on our behalf because there is a need to maintain a wildlife corridor somewhere through the Beacon Hill Trail System and this 40 acre piece of conservancy futures property may well be reserved for that. This is the most up-to-date information we have from the Parks Dept and much more remains to be settled.
The discussions going among Board Members of course includes the possibility of 2x18., but it also includes the idea of a major 18 with an optional 9 hole upper loop to provide for both an 18 and a 27 in relatively the same space. Also under consideration is the idea of an "intro" course of either 9 or 18 holes to accommodate the youthful, the aged, and the inexperienced. This notion would also help to address the problem of congestion in the lower southeast area.
There is no promise that we are entitled to two courses. The sooner we enter into an amicable relationship with the Bike Club the better we'll be able to get started on any of this. Gordy

[LJ Jubner]

Has the PR guy contacted the Bike club yet? We should find out when their (bike club) next three meetings are.

First one: to just get a feel for them and to introduce the two clubs. I would suggest at least three people attend and don't sit together
Second one: to actually introduce the project managers# (both should have one) We should also be prepared to support their agenda
Third one: to update progress on actual project.

# SDGA should solicit interested parties for the Sekani project manager for consideration at it's January Club meeting.

[LJ Jubner]

Has anyone photographed or video'd the property?

[Yoduh]

According to the Parks Dept the first step in the process will be for the Bike Club and the SDGA to have all their set-backs, limitations and exclusions all laid out and all above board. The Parks Dept. will also have it's own list of exclusions. Some of these are known at present and some are not. The biggest exclusion coming from the Parks Dept. involves the main green area. That excluded area includes the large green, the 200' or so of the forest that leads up to the first line of rock outcroppings and the rock outcroppings themselves which will be a climbing area. The area just to the west of the large green will be dedicated to an archery range to be built in 2013 and is not available to us. Further, the 40 acres referred to by Sean above is only an option of last resort. It is by no means pledged to us at this time. The Parks Dept. has not yet asked for this on our behalf because there is a need to maintain a wildlife corridor somewhere through the Beacon Hill Trail System and this 40 acre piece of conservancy futures property may well be reserved for that. This is the most up-to-date information we have from the Parks Dept and much more remains to be settled.
The discussions going among Board Members of course includes the possibility of 2x18., but it also includes the idea of a major 18 with an optional 9 hole upper loop to provide for both an 18 and a 27 in relatively the same space. Also under consideration is the idea of an "intro" course of either 9 or 18 holes to accommodate the youthful, the aged, and the inexperienced. This notion would also help to address the problem of congestion in the lower southeast area.
There is no promise that we are entitled to two courses. The sooner we enter into an amicable relationship with the Bike Club the better we'll be able to get started on any of this. Gordy

I can see that your job of being the treasurer has been slightly expanded.. I am sure that you must have sought board approval before taking these duty's on yourself?? It's interesting that you are trying to undermine a relationship that has already been fruitful and that you would do the exact same thing that you complained about another board member doing. You complained bitterly about how the board and the club was excluded from a meeting with the parks and bike people and than you do the exact same thing? This next meeting could be a repaet of the last.. except the other way a-round.:nono:

[coryreu]

Posted by Yoduh in a previous thread:

Quote: "By putting their bike trails in danger we have successfully lobbied to get different unused chunks of land to use for our course." Unquote.

If this isn't undermining the relationships between disc golfers, mountain bikers, and the city parks officials, I don't know what is.

Jeremy, aren't you concerned about injuring a mountain biker?

[Wobbly Bob]

I can see that your job of being the treasurer has been slightly expanded.. I am sure that you must have sought board approval before taking these duty's on yourself?? It's interesting that you are trying to undermine a relationship that has already been fruitful and that you would do the exact same thing that you complained about another board member doing. You complained bitterly about how the board and the club was excluded from a meeting with the parks and bike people and than you do the exact same thing? This next meeting could be a repaet of the last.. except the other way a-round.:nono:

Just so everyone knows, Gordy got a call from Mike Aho to set up a meeting with Gordy, the bike club and himself. The meeting was concerning bike riders and the fact that some golfing was very close to some bike riding.

Gordy agreed to the meeting and while the three entities where up walking the property, Gordy was informed of the parameters of where Parks expected disc golf to be and explicitly where disc golf was not supposed to be. Some of the temporary courses fall into the no go zones.

I received Gordy's report on Nov. 22 and told him I would post it. Somehow it slipped my attention and I forgot to post it on this thread. The report is attached at the bottom of this post.

Gordy, I apologize for spacing this out and not posting it in the timely manner you requested.

Gordy asked me to call Mike Aho and have the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) that Mike was putting together from the meeting emailed to me for dissemination to the Board. I hope to have the MOU sometime this week.

[Yoduh]

Just so everyone knows, Gordy got a call from Mike Aho to set up a meeting with Gordy, the bike club and himself. The meeting was concerning bike riders and the fact that some golfing was very close to some bike riding.

Gordy agreed to the meeting and while the three entities where up walking the property, Gordy was informed of the parameters of where Parks expected disc golf to be and explicitly where disc golf was not supposed to be. Some of the temporary courses fall into the no go zones.

I received Gordy's report on Nov. 22 and told him I would post it. Somehow it slipped my attention and I forgot to post it on this thread. The report is attached at the bottom of this post.

Gordy, I apologize for spacing this out and not posting it in the timely manner you requested.

Gordy asked me to call Mike Aho and have the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) that Mike was putting together from the meeting emailed to me for dissemination to the Board. I hope to have the MOU sometime this week.
Hahaha.. What a joke!!! You guys clearly make stuff up as you go!!!! I do not believe for one minute that Mike called Gordy.. Considering that Mike and Jeff have been talking on a weekly basis. Mike was surprised that Jeff wasn't there.
So Gordy sets up a meeting and tells Bob, Bob doesn't tell anybody. Gordy tells Corey Davis though. Somehow you think Gordy is off the hook for not telling the board or the club?????? The rules only apply to others Gordy and Bob? :cop:
I volunteer to chair the next club MEMBER meeting. It is a member meeting and therefore it should be ran by a member. Since I volunteered, I think it's a great idea.

[Yoduh]

There are NO bikers in danger with or current layout!! Do not pretend that there are!! You know first hand that I carefully consider any and all danger before putting ANYTHING up that I expect people to play. I would never allow in my craziest nightmare design something as dangerous as Downriver. You do shoot near and over trails. The line of sight is always such that you can see where anybody might be. We play over paths at Downriver and at HB. All golfers know that you have to wait until any person is clear for you to throw. It's common sense.

[Stimpi]

There are NO bikers in danger with or current layout!! Do not pretend that there are!! You know first hand that I carefully consider any and all danger before putting ANYTHING up that I expect people to play. I would never allow in my craziest nightmare design something as dangerous as Downriver. You do shoot near and over trails. The line of sight is always such that you can see where anybody might be. We play over paths at Downriver and at HB. All golfers know that you have to wait until any person is clear for you to throw. It's common sense.

Jeremy, we'd like to have a very nice, fun, safe course there. Maybe two of them, or maybe a 27 holer. Whatever "the club" decides to do, it's obviously NOT going to be what's already there. There are things you aren't taking under consideration. Several/many of the holes are in unusable areas, whether Jeff was there or not. Your reasoning of designing a dangerous course because we already have one, doesn't hold water. None of us want to injure a biker, walker, or other disc golfer, so one of the TOP priorities in the course design will be safety. Agree? Or are you just going to be obstinate about YOUR current design as being the best thing ever?
I'd like to see you work on the design, but it would be nice to see you work WITH the club, rather than against it.
As far a a meeting with Mike Aho, we actually got some solid information for a change, instead of what you and Jeff decide WE need to know. Apparently, what you and Jeff "know" isn't quite right, so try to understand and work within the parameters.

[Stimpi]

:cop:
I volunteer to chair the next club MEMBER meeting. It is a member meeting and therefore it should be ran by a member. Since I volunteered, I think it's a great idea.

I don't think anyone has a problem with you chairing the meeting. You do understand that the Chair is in the position of leading the meeting, not dominating it, right? You must listen to what's being said, by all sides present, pay attention to others that want to say something, and attempt to be as fair as possible to all members present.
Nothing to it. You just have to figure out how do deal with 50 different personalities, with 25 different ideas to discuss, and do it without anyone complaining that you were playing favorites.
I'm happy to see how you handle a meeting.

[Yoduh]

I don't think anyone has a problem with you chairing the meeting. You do understand that the Chair is in the position of leading the meeting, not dominating it, right? You must listen to what's being said, by all sides present, pay attention to others that want to say something, and attempt to be as fair as possible to all members present.
Nothing to it. You just have to figure out how do deal with 50 different personalities, with 25 different ideas to discuss, and do it without anyone complaining that you were playing favorites.
I'm happy to see how you handle a meeting.

If you had done any of things than you could talk.

[Yoduh]

Jeremy, we'd like to have a very nice, fun, safe course there. Maybe two of them, or maybe a 27 holer. Whatever "the club" decides to do, it's obviously NOT going to be what's already there. There are things you aren't taking under consideration. Several/many of the holes are in unusable areas, whether Jeff was there or not. Your reasoning of designing a dangerous course because we already have one, doesn't hold water. None of us want to injure a biker, walker, or other disc golfer, so one of the TOP priorities in the course design will be safety. Agree? Or are you just going to be obstinate about YOUR current design as being the best thing ever?
I'd like to see you work on the design, but it would be nice to see you work WITH the club, rather than against it.
As far a a meeting with Mike Aho, we actually got some solid information for a change, instead of what you and Jeff decide WE need to know. Apparently, what you and Jeff "know" isn't quite right, so try to understand and work within the parameters.
My idea was never to design a dangerous course. The one that is there is not dangerous. I am well aware that if the current flow/design will need to be changed. Whats actually happening is that we are in a process of figuring out what will work for both the bike riders and the disc golfers. We have been told that we were given certain areas and than told differently. It is really easy and completely against disc golfers best interests to have Gordy involved with this process.. I have never in my entire life heard somebody decide who was going to design a course and how many holes it was going to be with out even looking at the property. I would never send somebody to negotiate about a chunk of land who doesn't have the background not the interest in securing as much land as we possibly can. It is really easy for Gordy to say oh, ok, we can't have that and drop it because we don't need a maximum of amount of land to do what he wants. Having two courses will BY FAR serve our club the best. If you do realize that doubling the amount of holes in this town is the best thing for it. You have a problem with reality. There are more and more golfers and our courses get more crowded by the day. So if you actually want concrete results you should allow the person who has worked this situation where it is to continue to do so. I think that having any interested board member at the next park meeting is more than ok. I would ask that any board member to attend but that they should realize that they are there to watch and learn what a negotiation looks like and mostly listen. As it was it sounds like Gordy only knows how to listen and not how to attain things for us. Stimpi, when was the last time you played at Sekani? It has only been in is current layout for about a week.

[Yoduh]

I never claim to be impartial. I'm totally partial to the Spokane Disc Golf Association and it's role in the development of disc golf in the area. The Sekani courses are being presented as an SDGA project, yet only one board member, and one member at large, are privy to the information around this project yet tons of permanent development is being done.
That's not the way our club has ever operated in the past, and the City Officials we've dealt with appreciate that fact.
The meeting needs to be facilitated by someone, and everyone already knows where I stand. I'm not going to monoplize the meeting, just see that all the issues are addressed and everyone who want to speak will get a chance to speak. Robert's Rules of Order y'know.
See you soon.
Stimp
Hard to see you as impartial when you allow 5 people to ask a question back to back to back to back to back in a slightly different way, all the while not actually stopping the onslaught of questions so that the person being yelled at can answer the question.
I am pro as much disc golf as this city can get!

[Parks]

So Gordy sets up a meeting and tells Bob, Bob doesn't tell anybody. Gordy tells Corey Davis though. Somehow you think Gordy is off the hook for not telling the board or the club?????? The rules only apply to others Gordy and Bob? :cop:

While I have no reason to believe that Gordy was the one that set up the meeting, if it had been Jeff and Jeremy attending this meeting without informing the board/club instead of Gordy and Cory then there would be a massive uproar about not involving the club.

[Yoduh]

While I have no reason to believe that Gordy was the one that set up the meeting, if it had been Jeff and Jeremy attending this meeting without informing the board/club instead of Gordy and Cory then there would be a massive uproar about not involving the club.

I know for a fact that he did. It is also not on Bob to let the other board members know that there is a meeting. It is on Gordy. Bob is simply covering for him. :bricks:

[psychodwarf]

you know i would put my 2 cents in here but YODUH is doing a fine job of insulting the sdga and club members .. it is getting so bad on the forum here i am thinking of "why have a club " all i see here is people picking on other people and a bunch of name calling ..sounds like a bunch of little kids fighting over lego`s...

AND NO THIS IS NOT JOE`S VEIW ITS HIS WIFE`S I AND DONT EVEN PLAY DISCGOLF !!!!!!

[coryreu]

There are NO bikers in danger with or current layout!! Do not pretend that there are!! You know first hand that I carefully consider any and all danger before putting ANYTHING up that I expect people to play. I would never allow in my craziest nightmare design something as dangerous as Downriver. You do shoot near and over trails. The line of sight is always such that you can see where anybody might be. We play over paths at Downriver and at HB. All golfers know that you have to wait until any person is clear for you to throw. It's common sense.

You said it yourself, that if you put trails in danger, it would be a good way to lobby for getting other pieces of the land.

[coryreu]

I know for a fact that he did. It is also not on Bob to let the other board members know that there is a meeting. It is on Gordy. Bob is simply covering for him. :bricks:
You're right. It's not on Bob to report that there is a meeting. That's why he was never asked to do so. He was asked to report the notes from the meeting itself. To forward the news to club. The way all info gathered should be announced. Bob, you're forgiven for not getting it out two days earlier.

And you say that you know for a fact that Gordy set up the meeting. Like Lyle, you have no reason to believe so. You DON'T know it's a fact because it isn't true. You just say it went down like that in order to give your complaints validity. I KNOW FOR A FACT Gordy was invited to meet with Mike and the Fat Tire Bike reps.

I also know for a fact that if I were invited to a meeting that was going to give me information that I was entitled to from day one, but was still left out of the loop, I would take someone up on that invite in a HEARTBEAT.

[Yoduh]

My argument needs NO validation!! If there was a meeting set up between either party the whole board needs to be notified, according to your rants and others at the last club meeting.

[Yoduh]

You're right. It's not on Bob to report that there is a meeting. That's why he was never asked to do so. He was asked to report the notes from the meeting itself. To forward the news to club. The way all info gathered should be announced. Bob, you're forgiven for not getting it out two days earlier.

And you say that you know for a fact that Gordy set up the meeting. Like Lyle, you have no reason to believe so. You DON'T know it's a fact because it isn't true. You just say it went down like that in order to give your complaints validity. I KNOW FOR A FACT Gordy was invited to meet with Mike and the Fat Tire Bike reps.

I also know for a fact that if I were invited to a meeting that was going to give me information that I was entitled to from day one, but was still left out of the loop, I would take someone up on that invite in a HEARTBEAT.
How do you know it's not true, because you were there when Gordy got the phone call? He's not the only person who talks to Mike.. He hasn't been talking to Mike at all, but he called Mike to inquire about a meeting. Mike called him back and set up the meeting.. If that's what he meant by he called and set up the meeting than that's really cute, but it doesn't pass as an excuse. NOT EVEN CLOSE!:bricks:

[coryreu]

My argument needs NO validation!!.

Is that why you continue arguing?

[Yoduh]

I appreciate that you understand my point. I would like to see this process run as smoothly as possible and turn out as well as possible. I think it's a bad idea that anyone that wants to could call and set up a meeting with the parks department. Anybody that has been a part of a complicated, multi-faceted, discussion should not be circumvented because it causes us to loose our place in line. If Mike says you can have this and than says no you can't. You can say well ok, what can we replace that with? Where as somebody who has no clue hears "you can't have that" and they say ok. The SDGA should be trying to secure AS MUCH LAND AS POSSIBLE! At the very least the new person should seek counsel on how to work with the situation. They need to know what has been promised and what has already been added, and what has been taken away and why all this has happened. Since you and Gordy spent 21/2 hour figuring all of this stuff out, you could understand how complicated the situation could be.

[Wobbly Bob]

I appreciate that you understand my point. I would like to see this process run as smoothly as possible and turn out as well as possible. I think it's a bad idea that anyone that wants to could call and set up a meeting with the parks department. Anybody that has been a part of a complicated, multi-faceted, discussion should not be circumvented because it causes us to loose our place in line. If Mike says you can have this and than says no you can't. You can say well ok, what can we replace that with? Where as somebody who has no clue hears "you can't have that" and they say ok. The SDGA should be trying to secure AS MUCH LAND AS POSSIBLE! At the very least the new person should seek counsel on how to work with the situation. They need to know what has been promised and what has already been added, and what has been taken away and why all this has happened. Since you and Gordy spent 21/2 hour figuring all of this stuff out, you could understand how complicated the situation could be.



I have spoken with Mike and he will be sending the "Memorandum of Understanding" to me. As soon as I have received this document I will archive it and pass it along to the SDGA Board.

This will be the first item that the SDGA has seen from the Parks Dept. concerning Camp Sekani that is in writing and it will supersede any understanding that was talked about in the past.

I hope that we get it before the meeting tomorrow.

[Sky Pilot]

What we have are two political parties. I lead the ACTION party and Gordy leads the REACTION party. The REACTION party seems to be highly interested in mastering the dubious art of 'invalidation'. They follow what I do religiously and react predictably. And like James Bond, smoke screens are sent out on a regular basis to try to 'cloud' issues. Oil slicks are also distributed to try to throw some into the ditch. Thank God I'm not in the ditch and I can still see through the smoke.

Sky Pilot

[The Stranger]

So I got a chance to play the Jamboree course today. It may need some tweaking, but was fun. Had some really cool holes, but some seemed like filler. I guess that's where the tweaking comes in. Need to get back into shape to walk this one though.

Also the thought of having a course closer to where I live is exciting. Our two public courses are kind of a drive.

I have noticed on this forum that Jeff and Jeremy are being demonized by others in the SDGA. Maybe they didn't go through the proper procedures to get the course up, but I can't be mad at them for getting another course in town.

Maybe I don't have the complete story. I do know that getting more courses in the area is not a bad thing. It would help the growth of disc golf in the Spokane area, and if the sport grows so could the SDGA.

[Parks]

Obviously, demonizing Jeremy and Jeff is part of being a respected club member.

However, whenever they bring up ideas or projects then those are obviously disrespecting the SDGA and its membership.

You need to get with the program.

[Yoduh]

Obviously, demonizing Jeremy and Jeff is part of being a respected club member.

However, whenever they bring up ideas or projects then those are obviously disrespecting the SDGA and its membership.

You need to get with the program.

Thank you Lyle, we can't have the "club" saying good things or giving positive feedback, it's embarrassing to Jeff and myself. It invalidates the whole mob mentality that 5 or so people have which as you can see by reading this forum, is the whole club.

[Parks]

Correct.

[Simmeltron]

Thank you Lyle, we can't have the "club" saying good things or giving positive feedback, it's embarrassing to Jeff and myself. It invalidates the whole mob mentality that 5 or so people have which as you can see by reading this forum, is the whole club.

I must be confused here... so the best way to move these projects forward and gain the respect of the disc golf community is to never cease with the smart alec remarks and jabbing and poking at others? I'm not saying you are the only one guilty at this by any means, Jeremy. But I just would like to know WHEN THIS WILL STOP?? EVER??

I have been a "voiceless" member of the local DG community for some time now. But those days are over for me. From now on I will be a voting member of the SDGA and will be voicing my thoughts, feelings, and opinions POLITELY AND REASONABLY.

I fully agree with you and am just as excited to get Sekani established as soon as possible. But I do feel that because this will be a public course with several groups and agencies involved, this should have been a public project with all decisions and plans going through the proper channels (board, voting members, etc) from day ONE.

I really hope that moving forward we can all be mature about this, look at past mistakes and successes, as appropriate, and move forward with the best attempt at continuing those successes and avoiding those mistakes if at all possible. I am not going to try and change how you or anybody else thinks or feels about disc golf or the community involved with it. But when the need for discussion, planning, and even criticism arises, please make it CONSTRUCTIVE :rockon: :yay: :cheers: and not DESTRUCTIVE. :bricks: :headbang: :pullhair:

[coryreu]

I lead the ACTION party

Thank you Jeff.

[coryreu]

and Gordy....

...yeah. Not so much, Jeff.

[tomw]

I must be confused here... so the best way to move these projects forward and gain the respect of the disc golf community is to never cease with the smart alec remarks and jabbing and poking at others? I'm not saying you are the only one guilty at this by any means, Jeremy. But I just would like to know WHEN THIS WILL STOP?? EVER??

I have been a "voiceless" member of the local DG community for some time now. But those days are over for me. From now on I will be a voting member of the SDGA and will be voicing my thoughts, feelings, and opinions POLITELY AND REASONABLY.

I fully agree with you and am just as excited to get Sekani established as soon as possible. But I do feel that because this will be a public course with several groups and agencies involved, this should have been a public project with all decisions and plans going through the proper channels (board, voting members, etc) from day ONE.

I really hope that moving forward we can all be mature about this, look at past mistakes and successes, as appropriate, and move forward with the best attempt at continuing those successes and avoiding those mistakes if at all possible. I am not going to try and change how you or anybody else thinks or feels about disc golf or the community involved with it. But when the need for discussion, planning, and even criticism arises, please make it CONSTRUCTIVE :rockon: :yay: :cheers: and not DESTRUCTIVE. :bricks: :headbang: :pullhair:

Simmeltron, Do Not forget that ""I believe that private course owners in some cases may be threatened by the development of ‘wonderful’ potential courses that are free to the public. Hey, if I had my ‘own’ course and there was a lot of developing competition I might not like that too much. This is simply called ‘conflict of interest’. I believe that this is in part the explanation for why efforts to improve our local public courses are often frustrated."via Skypilot
, Thou i believe this IS completely true,This has not ever been addresed by Gordy. It is easy to see who does not like Jeff and Jeremy in the SDGA . And i think the MEMBERS who CARE about the direction of the SDGA need to voice themselfs NOW, TW:pirate:argh!

[coryreu]

Simmeltron, Do Not forget that ""I believe that private course owners in some cases may be threatened by the development of ‘wonderful’ potential courses that are free to the public. Hey, if I had my ‘own’ course and there was a lot of developing competition I might not like that too much. This is simply called ‘conflict of interest’. I believe that this is in part the explanation for why efforts to improve our local public courses are often frustrated."via Skypilot
, Thou i believe this IS completely true,This has not ever been denied by Gordy. It is easy to see who does not like Jeff and Jeremy in the SDGA . And i think the MEMBERS who CARE about the direction of the SDGA need to voice themselfs NOW, TWargh!

Tom, Jeff's statement is accusatory. He is stating what he himself might feel if Jeff owned his own course.
If it were me who owned a private course, I would pay this sort of statement no mind unless it was brought up to me, in person. Then I could make it clear how our own personal beliefs differed. Then, once that is clear, truths or falsehoods towards Jeff's accusations could become common knowledge. Never would I respond(let alone just simply deny), to an intended offensive statement like this on a forum. Never have I heard the topic come up in a meeting. So why should it come up on the forum?

[General Scales]

You guys all know that one good read from a Spokane Parks and Recreation member could very well soil all the good intentions that all of us have towards this heavenly piece of property. If they see we are so divided on so many issues and prefer to air out our dirty laundry in a public place, it won't end well.

[Wobbly Bob]

Simmeltron, Do Not forget that ""I believe that private course owners in some cases may be threatened by the development of ‘wonderful’ potential courses that are free to the public. Hey, if I had my ‘own’ course and there was a lot of developing competition I might not like that too much. This is simply called ‘conflict of interest’. I believe that this is in part the explanation for why efforts to improve our local public courses are often frustrated."via Skypilot
, Thou i believe this IS completely true,This has not ever been denied by Gordy. It is easy to see who does not like Jeff and Jeremy in the SDGA . And i think the MEMBERS who CARE about the direction of the SDGA need to voice themselfs NOW, TW:pirate:argh!

Tom, I know that Gordy doesn't feel this way. He has raised $40 over the last two weeks from benefits held out at Four Mound. Why would he do this if he had a 'conflict of interest' concerning Camp Sekani?

While you might feel this way as you have posted yourself, you can't claim to know how any one else feels. I know from talking with Gordy that he is as excited as anyone else in the SDGA to see Camp Sekani be developed into a great course(s).

I completely agree with you that SDGA Members, who care, need to voice their opinions about every thing our club undertakes.

Here's a link so that you may renew your membership (http://www.nwdiscgolfnews.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8227) to the SDGA. Or you can sign up online (http://www.sdga.us/join.asp) here. It takes a lot of $20 memberships to buy a basket.

[Simmeltron]

Simmeltron, Do Not forget that ""I believe that private course owners in some cases may be threatened by the development of ‘wonderful’ potential courses that are free to the public. Hey, if I had my ‘own’ course and there was a lot of developing competition I might not like that too much. This is simply called ‘conflict of interest’. I believe that this is in part the explanation for why efforts to improve our local public courses are often frustrated."via Skypilot
, Thou i believe this IS completely true,This has not ever been denied by Gordy. It is easy to see who does not like Jeff and Jeremy in the SDGA . And i think the MEMBERS who CARE about the direction of the SDGA need to voice themselfs NOW, TW:pirate:argh!

tomw, you are certainly entitled to our own beliefs and opinions. It is your right and I have no right trying to change your mind unless you asked me for some constructive conversation on the matter. :)

That said, I have a completely different opinion on the matter in regards to private course owners being threatened by Sekani and it is fully within my right to express that. No way whatsoever do I see that being the case. Threatened of WHAT???? Of the private courses in the Spokane area (T-N-T, Stimpi, Four Mound, am I missing any?), only one charges a fee at all to play. A measly $5 per car fee. I would gladly give more then that for all the work and money that Gordy puts into his courses. Besides, right now Gordy is putting ALL his collected monies into the Sekani fund. Threatened? I don't think so.

T-N-T and Stimpi Ridge also have nothing to be threatened by. They are clearly different and unique to anything that Sekani is going to become. I just don't see what logic there is for these private course owners (who built their courses simply for the love of the game, not to get rich, LOL) to be threatened at all by Sekani. Call me naive, but I see the great private courses in the area being a perfect complement to the great public courses we have. And I tell all my friends and family the very same thing and how lucky we are to have all these excellent choices to play in this area. I still believe that and will continue to.

I can't wait for Sekani to go in. And I will also fight to the end so that is goes in properly, with the best design possible, through all the proper channels and with all the proper parties involved. Yes, it may be a bit more complicated then just having one or two people go gung-ho designing and building on it and then having the club pay for it, but I would gladly wait a bit longer so that it goes in correctly.

This is a PUBLIC course, for the people who love the sport. Therefore, the people who love the sport should all get a say in the matter instead of having their choices, rights, and opinions made up for them.

[Simmeltron]

Tom, Jeff's statement is accusatory. He is stating what he himself might feel if Jeff owned his own course.
If it were me who owned a private course, I would pay this sort of statement no mind unless it was brought up to me, in person. Then I could make it clear how our own personal beliefs differed. Then, once that is clear, truths or falsehoods towards Jeff's accusations could become common knowledge. Never would I respond(let alone just simply deny), to an intended offensive statement like this on a forum. Never have I heard the topic come up in a meeting. So why should it come up on the forum?

Very well put sir. This is how this forum should be run.

[Simmeltron]

I am going to have to call Bullshit on the idea that private course owners are worried about any new course.

LJ, while I may agree with your overall statement (what I quoted above), sorry bro we really need to try and not be so harsh and critical with our words (what I didn't quote), especially when eternalized on the Interwebs. :smash:

One thing that I have learned in my short 31 years, is that the past is the past. If you want to move forward, you are likely to trip and fall on your face at some point from all that looking back. What has happened, has happened, but I still have hope that we can get this done and be as diplomatic as possible in doing so.

Maybe I am being a bit too optimistic in my views, but hey, I'm new so give me a break. ;) :cheers:

[General Scales]

All I care about is making Sekani a must play destination. With all the land and talent in the area, there is no reason it couldn't become the Milo Mciver of Washington. All that needs to happen is everyone has to check their personal belief systems at the door ...

...now how do we do that?

[Stimpi]

All I care about is making Sekani a must play destination. With all the land and talent in the area, there is no reason it couldn't become the Milo Mciver of Washington.
...now how do we do that?

First of all, even though Jeff presented this project to the club as a 105 acre park, (and he got us another 40 acres! Atta Boy!), in reality we have about 50 acres or so to design and build on.
Nobody talks about this because of this inane "Land Grab" mentality.

To me that says 18 quality holes, not 36 holes that need mandatories and such to keep everyone safe.
We may, or may not, get to build on the 40 acres of Conservancy land, which would be more holes, but that's not on the table at this time.

I think all you erstwhile course designers ought to get the parameters of our usable area and judge for yourselves.

As far as me, as a Private Course owner, not wanting to see quality public golf happen, or whatever I'm being accused of, I can only say, it's Poppycock!

That's a silly response to a silly accusation. I'm a disc golfer first, who appreciates ALL the public course I've ever seen, and love the fact that there were only 750 courses when I started playing, and now there's over 3000. Why would I not want that trend to continue?
I do.

[Dixon011001]

I like the course layouts. Lets get the baskets in before they tell us we cant have them there. It worked for the mountain bikers with the way they put in trails. It should work for us with baskets.


GARILLA DISC GOLF


:shooting::angry:

[Yoduh]

I must be confused here... so the best way to move these projects forward and gain the respect of the disc golf community is to never cease with the smart alec remarks and jabbing and poking at others? I'm not saying you are the only one guilty at this by any means, Jeremy. But I just would like to know WHEN THIS WILL STOP?? EVER??

I have been a "voiceless" member of the local DG community for some time now. But those days are over for me. From now on I will be a voting member of the SDGA and will be voicing my thoughts, feelings, and opinions POLITELY AND REASONABLY.

I fully agree with you and am just as excited to get Sekani established as soon as possible. But I do feel that because this will be a public course with several groups and agencies involved, this should have been a public project with all decisions and plans going through the proper channels (board, voting members, etc) from day ONE.

I really hope that moving forward we can all be mature about this, look at past mistakes and successes, as appropriate, and move forward with the best attempt at continuing those successes and avoiding those mistakes if at all possible. I am not going to try and change how you or anybody else thinks or feels about disc golf or the community involved with it. But when the need for discussion, planning, and even criticism arises, please make it CONSTRUCTIVE :rockon: :yay: :cheers: and not DESTRUCTIVE. :bricks: :headbang: :pullhair:

I fully admit that I have been guilty of reacting. If you go back and read the posts on this forum I was never picking on anyone trying to start anything. I will try to watch my tone as I'd like some peace in our club soon. Our meetings have been nasty and draining. Not something that is sustainable or enjoyable. The last few posts I have made, have already addressed this issue somewhat. I'm not going to bicker about what people "think I have done" or am doing. I have done nothing that would jeprodize this course, nor would I.

As far as this whole event's timeline is concerned. I have been accused of keeping this whole thing a secret. I found out 2 days before I left town for a week that we could be getting a walk through of what a layout would look like at Camp Sekani. I spent 2 days helping Jeff set something up (Not counting the 300+ hours I have spent up there designing holes for fun) I was asked by Jeff to help him arrange things so that the parks department could see what a course might look like on this land. When I got back Wednesday night I was excited to go help finish setting things up to show the parks. We had 2 more days to get it set up. We pushed the pin placements out as wide as we could going over trails and such. The club had known that we were going to have a fundraiser the evening that I left, as posted by Bob on November 3rd. As far as I knew the club finding out about the project actually going through was 2 days behind me knowing it might be happening. What I knew was that it might be going through and that they wanted to see what it would look like. Two days later they were given the full green light.

The pins that were well into the bike area were moved before anybody had even played the layout. So as far as putting bikers in danger to accrue land it was done without anybody actually playing it. Now what the bikers said was ok and what Mike Aho said would be ok, has turned out to have some issues. So I met with the bike president yesterday to hear all of his concerns and to make things as smooth and as good as possible. In our meeting he said that there are several trails that he could easily divert in order to give US as much area as possible. In exchange he wanted two serious issues addressed. Which I did immediately. The areas that he would divert traffic around would give us at least 2 more acres. and 2 new sweet holes! Hole 7's green would no longer have a trail through it. The big concern was hole 5 and that hole has been moved to a much shorter position to keep discs away from the green gate, we can install a long pin position that could be placed at a tournament. The area below the rocks will be completely opened up to disc golf with all those jumps being destroyed and the bridge up in the gully being removed completely. The traffic that flows out in the middle of hole 17's fairway can easily be rerouted so that bikes will be easily seen. NOW ALL of these changes are not going in anytime really soon. The bike president said the next time they got a backhoe that he would make these changes. Even if a completely different design was set up and used and became our permenant layout OUR AREA IS EFFECTIVELY MUCH BIGGER WITH THESE CHANGES THAT THE BIKE CLUB IS WILLING TO INSTALL!!!!!

The course that we have been playing will be altered without cutting and after walking through it today it can easily be installed by just moving flags and buckets. I will have it functional and playable by this Sunday so that we can play some dubs at 11:30. NONE OF THIS WILL BE PERMANENT!!!!!! I set this meeting so that any mountain biking toes that were being stepped on can be relieved. A couple holes will get easier because it is the simplest solution. I am talking about a no impact solution to letting golf continue safely at Camp Sekani.

[Parks]

I think its funny that several people said that no one can infer the feelings and motivations of private course owners, and then go on to infer feelings and motivations for Jeff and Jeremy in those very same posts.

Please look at yourself before pointing the finger at others. Petty squabbling doesn't help anything.

[Simmeltron]

I fully admit that I have been guilty of reacting. If you go back and read the posts on this forum I was never picking on anyone trying to start anything. I will try to watch my tone as I'd like some peace in our club soon. Our meetings have been nasty and draining. Not something that is sustainable or enjoyable. The last few posts I have made, have already addressed this issue somewhat. I'm not going to bicker about what people "think I have done" or am doing. I have done nothing that would jeprodize this course, nor would I.

Thanks for the update Yoduh. I think we are certainly on the right track to continuing to make the best possible result at Sekani and do what is best for the club overall. :cheers:

Please look at yourself before pointing the finger at others. Petty squabbling doesn't help anything.
Good point and no it does not.

[LJ Jubner]

One thing that I have learned in my short 31 years, is that the past is the past. If you want to move forward, you are likely to trip and fall on your face at some point from all that looking back. What has happened, has happened,

Those who don't know and LEARN from the past are destined to repeat it.

[Simmeltron]

Those who don't know and LEARN from the past are destined to repeat it.

Very true, I do certainly acknowledge the past as yes we will repeat it if we don't realize what we did, right and wrong. But we also can delay progress if we continue to dwell in the past which holds us back from moving forward.

[Yoduh]

First of all, even though Jeff presented this project to the club as a 105 acre park, (and he got us another 40 acres! Atta Boy!), in reality we have about 50 acres or so to design and build on.
Nobody talks about this because of this inane "Land Grab" mentality.

To me that says 18 quality holes, not 36 holes that need mandatories and such to keep everyone safe.
We may, or may not, get to build on the 40 acres of Conservancy land, which would be more holes, but that's not on the table at this time.

I think all you erstwhile course designers ought to get the parameters of our usable area and judge for yourselves.

Downriver is 20 acres. High Bridge is 22 acres.

[Yoduh]

We are more than likely to get the 40 acres of conservatory land. It will take some time for it to be opened to us. Knowing and planning for this makes a lot of sense. 12-14 holes can be designed on the upper area. When the 40 acres or another chunk of land is released we can finish out and have two 18 hole courses. We could also use the land for a tournament by setting up temporary holes. Still having two 18 hole courses for mondo sized, fun camping, good flowing, disc golf tournaments.

[General Scales]

The politics at play are frightening on all accounts.

[coryreu]

My comments regarding private course owners was copy/pasted from skypilots post, And i followed that with" This has not ever been addresed by Gordy". (This appears to only have been noticed by Coryreu, thx CD) The past is proof that GC's Fourmound reserve has taken front seat to a few good intention-ed spokane public course improvements that were suggested and then burried when he is at its helm as its director. This is not a secret, but it is wrapped in secrecy=downriver dgc redesign :nono: Go ahead and ask him yourself:whistler:, this is only imho:yawn:

Firstly, this issue of "conflict of interest" is slightly rhetorical. I believe that this whole thing was drummed up by someone to seemingly invent a concern. Probably and unnecessarily giving people reasons to vent. Then more importantly, diverting them from real issues
Secondly, I need to point out that you did copy and paste Jeff's words, then follow up with your own, saying "This has never been addressed by Gordy." But before that, you initially followed up with "you believe that Jeff's comments are completely true."
Addressing the issue by Gordy seems to be of great concern to you. So, I might suggest that, if willing, you ask Gordy. Maybe then the subject can be put to rest. If you do, let me know the results of your inquiries. I'm curious to see how Gordy confronts such certainties from true believers.

[Dadio!]

I love the idea of a monster tough course and a medium course on this property. Sorry I haven't checked in for a bit, will help as I can when home.

How hard are current layouts to follow so we can check them out?

[Yoduh]

The bottom course is really easy to follow. The upper is a little tough right now, mostly because we are going through it again and coming up with something different, or at least altered. There are two teepads right above the main parking lot. The one that starts off parallel to upriver drive is the tee for the lower course. Follow the pink ribbons from bucket to next tee. The upper has home depot flags leading from bucket to tee. Pink flags mark the direction of the fairway.

[Dadio!]

Thanks, look forward to checking it out when I'm back in a couple of weeks! :-)