Disrespectful player behavior

[cefire]

I was excited to hear that the NW dubs event was a big hit this weekend and that Sheila pulled it all together in my absence - thanks soooo much! :cheers:

But, I was alerted to a very disappointing event that took place during signups. The tourney went beyond the 72 player capacity by a team (or two?) and Sheila had to turn away late signups. Josh Morris was one of these.

Instead of understanding the limits of the TD and respecting her generous donation of time and energy to this event (not to mention to the fundraiser), he threw a temper-tantrum and blamed her for his lateness.

In case showing up early is not your idea of common sense, it was also clearly outlined here in advance:

IMPORTANT: Registration will be done on Saturday morning on a first come first serve basis. Maximum of 72 players (36 teams)! There will be NO 6somes.

I know that Sheila is pretty disappointed by this and probably too generous in letting this go unmentioned, but it is a recurrent theme amongst golfers that we think it is OK to disrespect a TD and expect them to mother us.

And guess what? Sheila doesn't really want to run future events. I know that I have dealt with some form of this childishness at many of the events I've run and it really gets to you. You volunteer your time and effort towards an event and receive criticism by those who have contributed nothing on their own.

If you want to know why we (Washington) have defensive TD's...
If you want to know why our TD's burn out...
If you want to know why we are systematically short on volunteers...

Look no further than the behavior displayed towards a dedicated volunteer on Saturday

Rant over :wink2:

[JMan]

Ah humans...and hey I see it every time someone who has been playing this game for awhile cutting on courses...these folks should know better, but they have that feeling of entitlement...and of course if I call them on it, I am somehow at fault...what for pointing what a tool your behavior is? PC=the downfall of manners in favor of entitlement...cause we wouldn't want to hurt your feelings by pointing out your obvious lack of social skills.

This crap is part of the reason I play in very few tournaments, fewer chances to be exposed to this abhorrent behavior. Sorry to hear WA looses another TD...damn shame

[Bullseye]

I was excited to hear that the NW dubs event was a big hit this weekend and that Sheila pulled it all together in my absence - thanks soooo much! :cheers:

But, I was alerted to a very disappointing event that took place during signups. The tourney went beyond the 72 player capacity by a team (or two?) and Sheila had to turn away late signups. Josh Morris was one of these.

Instead of understanding the limits of the TD and respecting her generous donation of time and energy to this event (not to mention to the fundraiser), he threw a temper-tantrum and blamed her for his lateness.

In case showing up early is not your idea of common sense, it was also clearly outlined here in advance:



I know that Sheila is pretty disappointed by this and probably too generous in letting this go unmentioned, but it is a recurrent theme amongst golfers that we think it is OK to disrespect a TD and expect them to mother us.

And guess what? Sheila doesn't really want to run future events. I know that I have dealt with some form of this childishness at many of the events I've run and it really gets to you. You volunteer your time and effort towards an event and receive criticism by those who have contributed nothing on their own.

If you want to know why we (Washington) have defensive TD's...
If you want to know why our TD's burn out...
If you want to know why we are systematically short on volunteers...

Look no further than the behavior displayed towards a dedicated volunteer on Saturday

Rant over :wink2:

This is terrible. We need more good TDs not less!

This ranks right up there with an incident this year where one of the female pros at the BSF started yelling at one of our volunteers for walking by (well away from the green) when she was putting. I am at the point where if I hear about any player yelling at one of our volunteers I will simply include a written complaint in the official TD report and let the PDGA disciplinary committee deal with them.

Ugh.

[Sam]

I want to offer a different perspective...

DGOD ran a tournament at Portland Meadows Golf Course yesterday. As I am settling with the guy for fees, he adds an aside and says, "Ya know... this is not something we're used to. We're used to dealing with seniors who want everything and want it now. While there are a lot of kids here, we've found them to be incredibly polite and respectful. We'd go so far as to call them wonderful."

I know... I was blown away, too.

I am sorry for Sheila's experience but we shouldn't let one person be the "normal" disc golfer. She did make a lot of people happy that day.

[cefire]

I want to offer a different perspective...

DGOD ran a tournament at Portland Meadows Golf Course yesterday. As I am settling with the guy for fees, he adds an aside and says, "Ya know... this is not something we're used to. We're used to dealing with seniors who want everything and want it now. While there are a lot of kids here, we've found them to be incredibly polite and respectful. We'd go so far as to call them wonderful."

I know... I was blown away, too.

I am sorry for Sheila's experience but we shouldn't let one person be the "normal" disc golfer. She did make a lot of people happy that day.

Good point Sam, this is certainly not the normal golfer! At the same time, it happens more than IMO is acceptable.

[Sam]

One time is unacceptable. Were we to have someone who was that disrespectful, we would probably take him or her aside and let them know that that type of behavior is not OK and that further outbursts of this type will result in them not being welcomed back.

[Sam]

Hell... we have World Champions and Innova-sponsored players who act like this...

First I'd like to say thanks to everyone for the support and accolades I recieved [at the tournament and on-line] during this years WORLDS. I played some amazing golf and I'm happy with my results. I'd also like to thank the PDGA and Augusta for everything they did to make this Championship such a success. And! I'd like to thank my Sponsor INNOVA [we weren't given any time to say thanks at the awards].

BUT! I guess it's time to get down to the NITTY GRITTY. And I mean GRITTY!

I just went through this post and saw the disdain most players are showing for Brad's bad behavior during this years PRO WORLDS. I played rounds 2,3,4,6,7 and the FINALS with him and I personally know everything he said and did. I rarely post on this discussion page; but, felt this is one time I must post! The post I have chosen to reply to...says it all!

The REAL issue is (and I have seen this at many events): Why are people not willing to "man up" and warn players early or back up others that do??

This is so true. I have played many rounds going back to 1998 with Brad Hammock and have warned him in almost every one of these tournaments and rounds to quit the SH%$ talking and innuendo.

Not once have I been backed up by someone in the group. This is exactly what happened again this year at the WORLDS. I told Brad repeatedly to stop making discourteous comments during our rounds. In most cases he came back with name calling and derogatory remarks. The other players in the group never once said anything; they just let him SPEW.

In rd. 3 he got in a pile of branches and asked "What do I do with this?" I told him mark it in the pile and play it...and that he couldn't move any of it because it was in front of his lie. He said a few profane words, marked his shot, putted and missed, and then started kicking the pile down to WOOD CHIPS. I told him to stop. No one else in the group said a word to him. I could clearly see they were as uncomfortable about his tantrum as I was...but they didn't say anything. The round went on with more WAAA BABY stuff from Brad till we got to hole 16 where the GATES OF HELL opened up. Brad 5'd the hole and as we were walking to 17's tee he started KARATE kicking the rock cairn/Chinook Chuk. He didn't accidentally run into the thing...he kicked and kicked on it till every rock was off the man-hole cover it had been erected on. Once again I told him to stop it and that he been warned already. And, once again neither of the others in my group said a thing. The second card [waiting on hole 17's tee] jumped in with condemning comments about his actions. He insulted them and me and showed no remorse of any kind for what he did. Again, not one word from the others on the LEADER CARD!

As the 2nd group walked away Brad said some pretty insensitive things about one of the players. This time I told Brad "You've been warned...now you're getting a stroke"! He tore into me for 5 minutes while we waited on the tee box. ONCE AGAIN NOTHING WAS SAID BY ANY OF THE OTHERS IN OUR GROUP!

Hole 17 was a complete fiasco with the BRAD calling us #$*&$! or #$*&$! many times including other taunting verbiage. I told him to stop it and that "I'll go get a T.D. if he doesn't"; and the others in the group [NOTHING]! It was at this point that I talked to the guys in the group and said "You're going to regret letting him act like this when this thing is over."

Hole 18 was even worse...Brad wouldn't even shake/high 5 me or Dean's hands. THE ANGST LEVEL WAS UNBEARABLY HIGH! We walked down the fairway listening to the P word [AT LEAST 30 TIMES]. Again I told Brad to stop it and I think ya'll know what the other guys on the card said. YEP! NOTHING! I was shaking mad and ended up missing a 20 footer...that rolled away...and I ended up a BOGIEING to finish the round.

This sort of thing went on---every second of every round. Snide little remarks were used by Brad on almost every hole. If someone asked to putt out he answer with "WHAT-EVER".
If someone got a good kick he'd spout "GOD. YOU'RE LUCKY; YOU'RE SO F$%#ING LUCKY"!

In the sport of disc golf I rarely come across anyone who is hard to get along with. Most people cheer on each other, say things like "SNEAK" when someone's disc is heading toward a tree or bush, congratulate each other for good shots, treat each other with dignity and respect, show sympathy when another player gets a bad kick, high 5 good throws and putts and in general act like good sports.

Rarely does someone come along in this sport that is contemptible, despiteful, belligerant and PURE EVIL as is the case with Brad Hammock.

The problem we have here is that we are asked to POLICE ourselves. And it's the rule...you must by the rules call someone for a violation or you're violating the rules. In doing this we the players put our own mental state and focus at risk of being sundered. But, if we don't do it we put ourselves at the same risk by having to play with so much anxiety.

After the tournament was over and the awards were handed out; a couple of the top finishers and I were talking and they were mad that he'd won, that he'd taken us out of our games with his BULLYING and that they were going to write some letters.

I told them "What are you talking about...it's too late for that now." I said to the guys "He never even recieved an official warning or penalty. WHY! Because you didn't back me up when he started acting like a 5 year old way back at the beginning of the event. I told them ya'll enabled him to do what he did." I then said remember what I said way back in the 3rd round: You're going to regret letting him act like this when this thing is over."

This is a lesson to all the disc golfers at every level...disc golf rules are rerived from ball golf rules. And the #1 rule is courtesy. You can beat your self up [which I know I'm guilty of occassionally] but you can't let someone else beat you up menatally or physically. If you do and the rest of the group lets it happened to them too...it's no one's fault but your own. And like the other quote from this thread ("Having people refuse to back up a warning is even more ridiculous.")

IT IS RIDICULOUS!

-Joel Kelly PDGA #9152

[emmarose]

interesting read, sam.

what i got out of it is "don't be an a**hole" and for heaven's sake, if someone has the balls to call a violation or penalty on your card back them the f*ck up, people... i think this is really important mostly because i ran into it down at worlds and was sort of disillusioned... not a violation but miscounting strokes... really wished the gals on my card would've backed me up and was surprised that they did not...

anyway, interesting and thought provoking... thanks for posting.

[Mike G]

Hell... we have World Champions and Innova-sponsored players who act like this...

Big Deal.

[Bullseye]

Big Deal.

Thank you for that insightful opinion piece.

You can try to trivialize the issue if you want, but for those of us who actually play a lot of tourneys it is a big deal. We're supposed to police our fellow players, but if we can't get any support from other players on our card then we're effectively beating our head against the wall. During a tournament round if someone breaks the rules or starts acting like an ass, we ALL need to step up and call them on it. Obviously they'll be a bit upset, which is why I would still suggest being polite about it, but if we don't speak up nothing will ever be "fixed".

[JR Stengele]

That is a shame. Sheila went above and beyond trying to put this tournament together and her selflessness was apparent. She was very clear about the rules and ran a clean and organized event. She, along with Andrew, have been amazing with their leadership and TD skills, bringing us many wonderful tournaments annually. I will miss their professionalism and ability to bring unique tournaments to the Pac NW!

[PuttsRrad]

But, I was alerted to a very disappointing event that took place during signups. The tourney went beyond the 72 player capacity by a team (or two?) and Sheila had to turn away late signups. Josh Morris was one of these.

Looked up Josh Morris on the internet. He's really young and immature. But, no one disrespect's Sheila and gets away with it! Okay?

[LJ Jubner]

I am disappointed that the the TD is so upset by this that we lost her.

I am disappointed that the player was actually named.

I am disappointed that this controversy is overshadowing an otherwise very well run and APPERICATED event

Josh is in his early 20's and by his own admission a very religious person. I have known Josh and his family since 2005. Keeping this in mind clearly (and I was standing right there) he was more frustrated then belligerent. A sentiment expressed by many who plan on playing and then something happens to change that. From taking a wrong turn to driving only to find out the event was canceled can be very frustrating indeed.

[Scott]

I am disappointed that the the TD is so upset by this that we lost her. Hopefully, we haven't. I am hopeful that Shiela receives plenty of encouragment and realizes that the opionions of 72 players who enjoyed the event should far outweigh one player with sour grapes.

I am disappointed that the player was actually named.People should not be held accountable for their actions? I disagree.

Josh is in his early 20's and by his own admission a very religious person. What does his religion have to do with anything?

From taking a wrong turn to driving only to find out the event was canceled can be very frustrating indeed.As far as I know, the event wasn't cancelled. Hopefull this will be an eye opening experience for Josh and he will learn that he should plan to arrive plenty early for tournamnets.

And hopefully he will select a new religion - one that teaches that other people should be respected, not belittled.

[Sam]

Big Deal.

As the prick was on probation for two years... I would say that it is a pretty big deal, yes. Thanks for pointing that out.

[cefire]

No event has been cancelled. The finale is still on and I'm sure it will be tons of fun!!!

And yes, I usually would not name the player, but there have been repeated negative interactions with this individual in the past. Judging by several emails I received from other local TD's since posting this, yesterday, his behavior extends beyond this single event. This type of player behavior seems likely a result of a lack of accountability. I stand by my decision to make this player's actions known and will continue to do so in the future.

Note for the future: If you behave like a child at my event, I will call you out. Please feel free to A) choose not attend my events or B) behave at least adult-esque while present.

As far as frustrated versus belligerent, your call I guess although everyone I've spoken with except you have agreed that the behavior was well out of line.

In either case, the outcome (ruining a TD's motivation) remains the same.

[ScottW]

I, too, had an incident happen at a tournament that I was TDing back in May that is still hanging around. The player in question had a rules infraction which we discussed at the time of the incident (he was in my flight) and it ended. I later inquired in my TD report how to deal with this and discussed the matter with him. After the PDGA made their decision I received a very threatening phone call from this individual he basically asked me to lie to the PDGA to get this corrected. What it comes down to for me is that PDGA events are voluntary events as is being a PDGA member. By being a member or playing an event (member or not) you are agreeing to abide by the rules set forth by the PDGA (as they are the governing body) whether you like or agree with the rules or not. Many players seem to have the sentiment that they don't agree with some of the rules therefore that particular rule somehow does not apply to them. I have a feeling with this particular incident that I still have not heard the end of it and have made the decision that I will refrain from TDing another event for at least the 2012 season. Players need to take more responsibility for their own actions. There is no such thing as running a small, low-key tournament. Every event is a PAIN IN THE @$$ in some way. Each player needs to do their part to ensure that they are not part of the problem but rather part of the solution.

On a side note, during the same event that I had the problem I had another player bring me a bottle of a special release beer just to say thanks for running the event - that went a long way and does go to show that not all are bad unfortunately the bad incident overshadowed the good one.

[XandorF]

thank you scott! i second everything you outlined... taking the words out of my mouth!

[maynard]

Good for you Andrew! I wouldnt put up or shut up about anybody disrespecting the woman I love(my wife)or any other for that matter.
Chivalry is not dead!

[SheilaT]

Thanks for the support maynard, but let me kindly remind you that I'm nobody's woman but my own. And Andy would be the first to say so.

ScottW, that is reprehensible. This person should be named, held accountable, and at least be on probation with the PDGA for these actions. At least that is my opinion. I thoroughly understand and support your decision to boycott running events. I couldn’t believe what I had to put up with at my event, especially when I gave up my spot just to accommodate as many players as possible.

Here’s what I have to say about this matter. No matter how good of a player you are, or you think you are, you do NOT have a right to play an organized event. You have a privilege. And it’s a privilege made possible solely by the VOLUNTEER work of the TD. Therefore, if you want to have the PRIVILEGE to play, you have to abide by all rules, take responsibility for your own actions, and accept their consequences. Don’t expect to have these rules bent or changed just to accommodate you and your irresponsible actions because they WON’T be.

If anyone disagrees with this, I suggest you run an event yourself and provide productive comments to help improve whatever you disagree with. If you think you can do it better, show me how. Otherwise, I would rather you just said thank you and went on your merry way. Because frankly, and in the words of a famous actor, I don't give a d*mn what you think you're entitled to.

That said, I do recognize that the majority of the people at the event were very appreciative and supportive. I was very grateful for their voiced support.

[Sam]

Man... we really need like buttons up in here...

Thanks for the post, Sheila. I think it is safe to say that we all hope that we have not lost you as a TD over this incident.

:cheers:

[Bullseye]

Thanks for the support maynard, but let me kindly remind you that I'm nobody's woman but my own. And Andy would be the first to say so.

ScottW, that is reprehensible. This person should be named, held accountable, and at least be on probation with the PDGA for these actions. At least that is my opinion. I thoroughly understand and support your decision to boycott running events. I couldn’t believe what I had to put up with at my event, especially when I gave up my spot just to accommodate as many players as possible.

Here’s what I have to say about this matter. No matter how good of a player you are, or you think you are, you do NOT have a right to play an organized event. You have a privilege. And it’s a privilege made possible solely by the VOLUNTEER work of the TD. Therefore, if you want to have the PRIVILEGE to play, you have to abide by all rules, take responsibility for your own actions, and accept their consequences. Don’t expect to have these rules bent or changed just to accommodate you and your irresponsible actions because they WON’T be.

If anyone disagrees with this, I suggest you run an event yourself and provide productive comments to help improve whatever you disagree with. If you think you can do it better, show me how. Otherwise, I would rather you just said thank you and went on your merry way. Because frankly, and in the words of a famous actor, I don't give a d*mn what you think you're entitled to.

That said, I do recognize that the majority of the people at the event were very appreciative and supportive. I was very grateful for their voiced support.

http://womenfindingmen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Man-clapping.gif

[ScottW]

ScottW, that is reprehensible. This person should be named, held accountable, and at least be on probation with the PDGA for these actions. At least that is my opinion. I thoroughly understand and support your decision to boycott running events. I couldn’t believe what I had to put up with at my event, especially when I gave up my spot just to accommodate as many players as possible.




The PDGA stated that I needed to report the incident or I could face sanctions - of which this player was told of my findings. I did report the player and they received a 6 month suspension with 1 year probation which is what prompted the player's harsh words to me. Shortly after that I decided that I would work with this player because I thought that he could help become part of the solution with many others who I see commit the same infraction at tourneys. He has not persued this further and since I have had more time to think about it and discuss it with others I am no longer willing to assist with this and believe the player needs to face his suspension and probation - which really I didn't think was that bad of a punishment afterall.

I couldn't agree more with everything else SheilaT mentioned.

[TREX]

I have been playing in tourneys since 1991, and I am very thankful to all the volunteers and TD's out that that make it possible. Disc Golf as a whole is what it is today due to those people.

Keep up the good work Sheila and Scott..

Thanks

[Toby Puttzinski]

Do we need to start having volunteer 'bouncers' to help filter out the BS that TD's have to put up with from time to time? If you see one of your peers acting like an idiot, pull them aside and set them straight. Jub, maybe you could take this kid under your wing and show him how to be a better ambassador for the sport.

I don't know all of the details, but it seems significant enough that perhaps he should be banned from club events for a period of time, if not indefinitely.

[PuttsRrad]

Maybe this disc golfer should just apologize.

[Magilla]

Hell... we have World Champions and Innova-sponsored players who act like this...

Ha, Brad yelled at me ONCE...just once. I believe my response was received loud and clear.
:whistler:

:D

[Magilla]

This is terrible. We need more good TDs not less!

This ranks right up there with an incident this year where one of the female pros at the BSF started yelling at one of our volunteers for walking by (well away from the green) when she was putting. I am at the point where if I hear about any player yelling at one of our volunteers I will simply include a written complaint in the official TD report and let the PDGA disciplinary committee deal with them.

Ugh.

The Disciplinary Committee would be more than happy to deal with these type of situations.

:wink2:
:cop:

[TwiZ]

[QUOTE=Sam;108015]Man... we really need like buttons up in here...

I agreee....good discussion!

[Parks]

The PDGA stated that I needed to report the incident or I could face sanctions - of which this player was told of my findings. I did report the player and they received a 6 month suspension with 1 year probation which is what prompted the player's harsh words to me. Shortly after that I decided that I would work with this player because I thought that he could help become part of the solution with many others who I see commit the same infraction at tourneys. He has not persued this further and since I have had more time to think about it and discuss it with others I am no longer willing to assist with this and believe the player needs to face his suspension and probation - which really I didn't think was that bad of a punishment afterall.

I'm STILL waiting for my suspension to be up, you jerkhole!

[DMajor]

What was the infraction that many others commit?

Maybe we can help educate the masses....

[DexterHawk]

I've been thinking about penning an article for one of the disc golf magazines about these issues... Any suggestions for some hard and fast rules for disc golf etiquette?

[ScottW]

What was the infraction that many others commit?
Maybe we can help educate the masses....

Let's just say it was a smoking violation of some kind and he tried to state that it was his constitutional right to medicate himself in that manner:yawn: Apparently he thought that the PDGA rules don't apply to him if he doesn't like or agree with them:explode: I frequently see large numbers of players doing this openly between rounds at tournaments. I think it will only be a matter of time before someone makes an example out of them.

Lyle WTF!?!? Where have you been? I do certainly hope that was a toungue-in-cheek comment there. I thought you imposed your own suspension on yourself because I havn't seen you in so long. School keeping you too busy to play :smash: I might be heading that way soon myself.

[Magilla]

Let's just say it was a smoking violation of some kind and he tried to state that it was his constitutional right to medicate himself in that manner:yawn: Apparently he thought that the PDGA rules don't apply to him if he doesn't like or agree with them:explode: I frequently see large numbers of players doing this openly between rounds at tournaments. I think it will only be a matter of time before someone makes an example out of them.


The PDGA rules on "medicating" only apply from the 2 minute warning until scorecards are turned in.
Just say'in.

:cop:

[General Scales]

An illicit substance is an illicit substance. Would rather see that than alcohol however.

[Parks]

Lyle WTF!?!? Where have you been? I do certainly hope that was a toungue-in-cheek comment there. I thought you imposed your own suspension on yourself because I havn't seen you in so long. School keeping you too busy to play :smash: I might be heading that way soon myself.

Pretty sure everything I post on here is tongue-in-cheek :D

Mostly, I hit a slump and started to lick so many balls at golf that it wasn't fun to play. I'm rebuilding my throw and will be back in full force if it pays off.

You going for a Master's or Doctorate or something? Yowza.

Back on subject; disrespectful players make me sad.

[LJ Jubner]

The interesting thing here is neither of these examples have anything to do with one another. Blowing up at a TD is completely different then smoking pot. Medical Mary J is for home use only. In public and smoking it in Idaho seems really really stupid.

[General Scales]

I've been thinking about penning an article for one of the disc golf magazines about these issues... Any suggestions for some hard and fast rules for disc golf etiquette?

Yeah I have a few things that should be MANDATORY!

1.) Ask before you assume you can do anything. This goes with all aspects of the game. Smoking a cig, jump putting, casual relief, etc.
2.) Shut the hell up when people are preparing to throw. I love bantering back and forth with anybody on my card but I will shut my mouth when they get to their lie until they have thrown.
3.) Have fun. Yeah, bad rounds happen (case in point, my last two rounds of the Farragut Open). I still had a smile on my face and a spring in my step. I hate having one negative player effect the entire card with their attitude.
4.) Discuss your beef with the player it's with, not everyone but them. Nothing worse then hearing how you pissed somebody off from somebody that wasn't on your card, or worse, at the tournament.
5.) ALWAYS THANK YOUR TD AND VOLUNTEERS! They get nothing but the satisfaction of seeing their event work. A thank you will go a long way to making sure they come back the next year and try harder to make it better.

I could go on and on and on...

[LJ Jubner]

I've been thinking about penning an article for one of the disc golf magazines about these issues... Any suggestions for some hard and fast rules for disc golf etiquette?

How About the BIG 5 rules ( three are courtsey, two are technical)

Don't break shit
Pack it in Pack it out
Don't advance in front of play
Play directly behind the mini
No falling putts