Problems I'm having at 300 feet

[Knuckles Dakota]

So, I'm firmly stuck at the 300' mark. I'll admit I throw discs I probably shouldn't: destroyers and wraiths. I also throw leos, Valks, and tbirds though. They all max out at 300 feet though, leos, destroyers, tbirds, and all.

What's more I find my self hurting after a few rounds the next day. My first knuckle on my right index finger is killing me and my left knee feels a little unstable.

I throw RHBH and my grip is all four finger pads tight on the inside rim with pressure from the base of my thumb. the tip of my thumb doesn't do anything but rest on the rim of the disc. I'm thinking about changing my grip so that my index finger rests across the edge of the disc.

I feel like my left foot leaves the pad before I throw and have no idea why my knee would hurt.

I recognize that my form needs work. I don't know where to start building it up though. Can anyone break down for me how to start building the finesse required to let the disc do the work and build some real distance?

[snap7times]

thumb should be where the inside part of the rim meets the plate, not near the outer edge of the rim...

[Denny]

You tube has everything you want. Just look around.

[Knuckles Dakota]

Well, I've tried You tube, Denny. Thanks for the suggestion though. I haven't found anything on line for people who are sitting at 300' though. It all seems geared towards beginners or people throwing 400' and nothing explains my hurt finger.

I feel like I'm doing everything you tube and disc golf review articles tell me. but my index finger hurts and I only get 300'. so something is wrong and I thought I'd try a direct approach by asking some local experts.

[Bruce]

Where are you located at?

[HarrisonH]

It would be really helpful for you to have video of your drive and an image with the clearest disc you have of your grip from the underside of the disc for people on here to give you any solid advice. I do recommend http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/technique/bhproblemsdistance.shtml#powerloss7 as some reading material for you, though. The links throughout there contain more useful information as well.

[Denny]

Best advice, find better players and play with them. Watch and learn.

[HarrisonH]

Best advice, find better players and play with them. Watch and learn.

Can't disagree there. Made a world of difference when my home course went from Greenway to Lunchtime. Met lots of good people (who are also good at disc golf, and willing to share advice), and had a far more challenging course, to boot. Cheers, Lunchtime Crowd! :cheers:

[mcbentz]

Don't know how old you are but, regardless you need to make sure you stretch! The older I get it seems the more important it is. I've had major knee troubles from disc golf. I stretch and warm up really good before each round. As for your fingers it sounds to me as if your joints or muscles in your fingers are straining. Your grip sounds like the typical power grip which is good! It's not uncommon to be able to throw teebirds as far as destroyers and bosses! I would stick with wraiths, teebirds and roc's and pull the d's and bosses out of your bag for awhile. Most likely your over compensation will force a more stable way faster disc to hurt your grip, hands, knee and form. Try power gripping your t's and wraiths on your drives and fan gripping your roc's and putters. I've been around disc golf for 20yrs and have watched too many am's throw way to much disc.....stable discs like destros, forces, etc are made for players with super hard snap. If you can't throw a stable disc 400 feet you shouldn't be throwing it! Good luck....

[Ol' Bob]

I used to have problems at 300 feet. Now if I have them, they're at 250.

They told me to cheer up, things could be worse. So I cheered up, and sure enough, things got worse.

[Burge]

Without seeing your grip or drive firsthand, it's hard to give effective advice. From the sounds of it, you first need to change your grip. Your thumb needs to be on top of the flight plate, right on top of your first index knuckle. If you move your thumb towards the rim, your loosing critical grip power at the snap--right when you need it most. Your index finger is hurting because it's doing all the work of pulling the disc through the snap. You can also try gripping with the tips of your fingers instead of the pads. If you do this properly, your fingernails should be flat against the bottom of the flight plate and your palm will be facing up instead of clamped against the rim. This may seem awkward at first, but requires much less grip force to carry the disc through the snap and keeps your wrist stable throughout the entire throw. The most important thing is to NOT take your index finger out of the grip--that will cost you a ton of power and make your release unreliable on a power drive.

The next thing you need to work on is your footwork. Slow down. Go back to basics. If your foot is leaving the pad before you release the disc, then you're probably throwing more with your arm than with your entire body and your feet are getting ahead of you. If you want to crack 300', you need to throw with your entire body, not your arm. Your throw should start at your hips and drag the rest of your body along for the ride. Your arm and hand are there to maintain control of the disc through the throw and release the disc at the right time--not to do most of the work.

I'm telling you this because I was at the same place that you are now, stuck behind a 300' wall, and these are the two key things that helped me get to the next barrier---the 400' wall. I can occasionally get out past 400', but the accuracy of the throw is anybody's guess. That's definitely one thing I've learned after practicing thousands of drives...never use 100% of your power. If you put everything you've got into a throw, you're going to lose control of the shot. Remember the Pirelli slogan, "power is nothing without control".

I also recommend that you read every article on DiscGolfReview, here:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles.shtml

and here:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/technique.shtml

there are also a ton of 'drive analysis' videos here:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/throwanalysis.shtml

Finally, as others have mentioned, find a group of players that are far better than you and beg to play with them. You'd be surprised how eager some pros are to give advice to a struggling novice. :wink2:

[Burge]

If you can't throw a stable disc 400 feet you shouldn't be throwing it!

This is some of the best advice that is rarely heeded.

[Parks]

This is some of the best advice that is rarely heeded.

Or not, regardless of your definition of stable.

Both Firebirds and Teebirds can and should be well-used at about 300 feet of power.

[Parks]

Lots of links to discgolfreview, and that is good. Check out their forums, as well. Posting a video of yourself in the Video Critique section can do you a lot of good.

Also, as others have mentioned, try to hook up with better people in your area and learn from them.

[General Scales]

Or not, regardless of your definition of stable.

Both Firebirds and Teebirds can and should be well-used at about 300 feet of power.

I'd agree to this.

[Adam Schneider]

Firebirds are great tomahawk discs, no matter how far you can throw.

[emmarose]

i'm not going to try to give you any advice on how to get more distance... i'll let the big arm boys handle that :p but as far as pain in your joints i do have a bit of advice... i've got myself riddled all up with aches and pains due to tendonitis and arthritis from several breaks and strains, including my thumb and middle finger on my throwing hand... mostly i just accept that it is what it is and it's going to hurt, however... taking down the swelling is an effective way of reducing the pain. i don't wait until after my round to take a few ibuprofens, i find that if i take them before or midway thru the round it's much more effective and i deal with much less pain and swelling...

good luck...

[Greg_R]

Tip: Put all your drivers back into your bag and pull out a putter (Aviar, etc.) and head to the practice field. Throwing the putter for distance will quickly highlight form problems (plus it's nicer to play catch with). There are a number of things that could be going wrong; the likely suspects include speed (too fast/frantic), your grip, and wrist-rolling. Once you are smoothly cranking the putter over 200ft then give one of your midranges (Roc, etc.) a try. With good form, 300ft should not be a problem with the midrange.

[Rakoz]

I have had a similar problem (pain-wise). I most often use a 2 finger grip forehand and backhand and get that same pain. I find it usually means I'm gripping too hard and getting too much rip off that finger . Switched to a 3 finger for big tosses (or just more control on approach) and the pain went away.

[Burge]

Or not, regardless of your definition of stable.


True...from one player to the next, 'stability' can be a highly subjective term. What one player may consider to be 'stable', another player might use as a turnover disc -- and it usually has nothing to do with power. The advice is mainly for new players that think to get more distance they need to get the latest and greatest disc that everybody else is throwing. I think this is a classic mistake. Anybody with enough experience knows that an improvement in form can make everything that's already in your bag go drastically farther.

When I first started playing, a friend gave me an old DX Eagle and an APX to get started. I took one look at the Eagle and thought, "How the hell am ever going to get this itty-bitty thing to go far?" After throwing big fat lids for decades and playing Ultimate for a couple years, that little Eagle seemed like a bottle cap that wouldn't do anything I wanted it to. After a few weeks of being humbled by a little yellow disc, my friend's seemingly effortless one-finger 350' flick, and the old 21-hole circuit at Downriver, I finally lucked-out and threw a complete fluke of a high sidearm anny at #20 that felt beautiful as it left my hand. I was blown away as it slowly flexed back to flat and sailed over the entire rock pile to land ~40 feet from the basket. It was then that I understood that the key to the game is form, not force. As much as I tried, I was never able to get that much distance with that disc again, but after an entire year of diligent practice, I was able to develop a decent backhand and was getting a Sidewinder to hyzer-flip for the same distance. It then took me another year to be able to get a Wraith to that far.

I see 'finesse-before-force' proven time an time again when I watch obvious newbie players, who look like they have all the upper body strength to put a disc on the moon, spastically throw the crap out of a disc only to have it stall out and die inside of 200'.

[Rakoz]

Tip: Put all your drivers back into your bag and pull out a putter (Aviar, etc.) and head to the practice field. Throwing the putter for distance will quickly highlight form problems (plus it's nicer to play catch with). There are a number of things that could be going wrong; the likely suspects include speed (too fast/frantic), your grip, and wrist-rolling. Once you are smoothly cranking the putter over 200ft then give one of your midranges (Roc, etc.) a try. With good form, 300ft should not be a problem with the midrange.

I usually do this myself at some point during the summer and work my way back to over-stable during the wet and windy winter. Noticing a change in discs about now anyway so It looks like it's that time of year again.

[Knuckles Dakota]

Thanks everyone for good advice. Played a few rounds over the last couple days and my pain problem is resolved. I was putting too much of my grip on my one poor finger and I was using my left knee as a launch for my pivot.

I'm still at 300', but at least I'm not in pain:)

I will work on some of the distance suggestions here in the next week or so and report back.

One question: Some one suggested wraiths as a good disc for someone in my range and I would have thought those better for someone who was throwing over 300' consistently. Would a wraith be good for me to learn from?

[snap7times]

Work your way up... for the innova...
TeeBirds and leopards then valkyrie, viking and sidewinders, then beats and orcs... once you can control these discs accurately then go to the speed 11-13 discs...

[Ol' Bob]

DX Wraiths/Valks. Use 'em up. Give 'em away. Love 'em while they're in your wheelhouse.

[Burge]

One question: Some one suggested wraiths as a good disc for someone in my range and I would have thought those better for someone who was throwing over 300' consistently. Would a wraith be good for me to learn from?

I'd suggest that you stick with what you have and work purely on form. Get off the course and go find a soccer field or, better yet, a multi-purpose field with a track around it (like at a college or a high school), and spend an hour practicing drives. When you play a round, you get to practice 18 drives. An hour on the field will let you practice 50 to 100 drives -- depending on your stamina and the size of your bag. A field with a track is ideal because most tracks have distance markers that will let you accurately gauge your progress. Before you start, stretch stretch stretch. Throwing drive after drive is far more grueling than just playing a round. Then, start by trying to throw everything in your bag with the same throw at the same spot. Try to throw each disc, no matter what it is, with the the same method and force. This will not only let you see the limitations of each disc, but it will also let you see the limitations of your consistency. As you throw from one side of the field to the other, use a different throw for each time you empty your bag (i.e. all backhand, then all sidearm, then all backhand hyzer, then all tomahawk, then all sidearm anny, etc.). This will keep fatigue at bay and allow you to work on throws that you aren't comfortable with yet. It will also let you see what you can really do with each disc and build a solid foundation of versatility, which is the best skill to have on any course. Ever throw a tomahawk with your putter? Ever try to hyzer-flip your midrange out to 300'? Ever even try to throw a sidearm roller? Practicing on a field allows you to experiment and make mistakes that you can learn from without worrying about the consequences of blowing your score.

This is essentially what I did, 3 times a week for two years, so that I can now reach into my bag and know what each disc will do with each throw and how much I can squeeze out of it. Options, man...you've got to have options.

[Knuckles Dakota]

Burge, that was excellent advice. I will do that.

[Ol' Bob]

Yeah, what's to argue about there?

I was every day for the first two years. I mowed a neighbor's field so I'd have a place to practice where nobody could see how bad I was. I was still losing discs off either side of a 200 foot wide area. Now I like the tight lines. It's where I make up for the strokes I pick up on the long holes.

[General Scales]

I stress field work more than any other aspect. The easiest way to gain distance is to get good form, and repeat it till you can do it in your sleep.

[Ol' Bob]

I've done it in my sleep and damned nearly hit the cat.

[Knuckles Dakota]

I thought I'd type up a quick update on how my game is progressing. I've been following the advice given above and had some improvement in my throw. I'm really not getting anymore distance, but after changing up my grip and pulling later I've noticed that my drives have improved quite a bit. They now travel about 15' off the ground in a mostly straight line before fading off or turning to the right at the very end of their flight. I've been practicing on a foot ball field where I can measure my distance fairly accurately.

I have some new questions:

1. While my drives certainly look like they are flying on a better line thanks to improved technique they still won't break that 300' barrier. What happens is that they travel quite straight for about 200-250' start to turn or fade and look for all the world like they will just keep on going for another 100 feet or so and then at 280-290 (every time!) they just lose power and fall to the ground right in front of 300' like it's an invisible barrier. I think my best throws get about 295'. I'm using leopards, tee birds, a side winder, a stratus, and a valk. for practice. Is 300' with these discs on a long straight-ish path pretty typical? Should I be looking to throw higher with them to get the distance, working on hyzer flip with them, or something else I have not considered?

2. I've addressed the knee pain I mentioned and it's disappeared. I still occasionally get index knuckle pain. Feels a bit like a sprain which is frustrating because it keeps me from practicing as much as I'd like. I wonder if it's my grip? I often hear a POP when I throw. It does not sound like my finger snapping against my palm though. It feels like my finger is holding on to the very edge of the disc and as it leaves my hand there is a ( very satisfying i must admit) POP that occurs. could this be causing the pain?

Thanks to everyone who's been commenting, you've all been quite helpful.

[Greg_R]

1. While my drives certainly look like they are flying on a better line thanks to improved technique they still won't break that 300' barrier. What happens is that they travel quite straight for about 200-250' start to turn or fade and look for all the world like they will just keep on going for another 100 feet or so and then at 280-290 (every time!) they just lose power and fall to the ground right in front of 300' like it's an invisible barrier. I think my best throws get about 295'. I'm using leopards, tee birds, a side winder, a stratus, and a valk. for practice. Is 300' with these discs on a long straight-ish path pretty typical? Should I be looking to throw higher with them to get the distance, working on hyzer flip with them, or something else I have not considered?
What do you mean by "turn or fade"? Fade usually means "hyzering out" i.e. the last part of a disc's flight. For a right handed backhand throw that means turning to the left. If the disc is released flat and then fades then you are not getting enough snap -or- you're rolling your wrist. Usually a wrist roll can be seen by the nose angle of the disc (nose up = rolling your thumb down, nose down / flipping disc = rolling your hand toward the pinky). With Sidewinders and Valks especially you should see the disc "flip over" and travel to the right and then hook back left @ the end of the flight path. Both of those discs are known to have a lot of movement in their flights.

However, I will once again reiterate my suggestion that you go out to the field with a putter or midrange (Roc, Buzz, etc.). These discs will quickly highlight form problems when thrown with power. Start with no run up... just a simple reach-back & throw. An average person should be able to throw the mid range 300ft with this kind of throw (plus you'll want to practice this for approach shots anyway!).

[papatart]

An average person should be able to throw the mid range 300ft with this kind of throw (plus you'll want to practice this for approach shots anyway!).

The average person DOES NOT throw a mid range three hundred feet from a standing position. I would be willing to bet that most pro level players do not throw mid ranges three hundred feet from a standing position. Please don't have a person that is having difficulty reaching three hundred feet with a run up and drivers feel even more challenged by saying that this is true.

As far as your distance, it is great to hear that you feel that your form is improving and the discs are flying straighter. With that being said and your note that you are still not getting any farther, it seems that you have reached the limit of your throw due to the speed of your throw. It is true that form is of utmost importance, but when the rubber hits the road, if you have the most perfect form in the galaxy and are releasing the disc at 30 miles an hour, it's only going to go so far. At some point, you are going to have to get that upper body rotation and arm moving faster to help accommodate a longer throw.

Keep at it and have fun!

Later,
Scott Papa
Team Discraft
Instructional Editor DiscGolfer Magazine

[RonTheWhip]

The average person DOES NOT throw a mid range three hundred feet from a standing position. I would be willing to bet that most pro level players do not throw mid ranges three hundred feet from a standing position. Please don't have a person that is having difficulty reaching three hundred feet with a run up and drivers feel even more challenged by saying that this is true.

As far as your distance, it is great to hear that you feel that your form is improving and the discs are flying straighter. With that being said and your note that you are still not getting any farther, it seems that you have reached the limit of your throw due to the speed of your throw. It is true that form is of utmost importance, but when the rubber hits the road, if you have the most perfect form in the galaxy and are releasing the disc at 30 miles an hour, it's only going to go so far. At some point, you are going to have to get that upper body rotation and arm moving faster to help accommodate a longer throw.

Keep at it and have fun!

Later,
Scott Papa
Team Discraft
Instructional Editor DiscGolfer Magazine

Scott, you stole my advice right out of my keyboard.

Just a few points that I think you could consider, as well as anyone else on the board looking to increase distance.

1. Your form is not perfect.
- I doubt anyone truly has perfect form, but there are a lot of golfers with pretty dang good form. Finding something that works and is repeatable is key. I suggest contacting a local pro and offering to pay for lessons. This does two thins: Makes your form a lot better and also helps out those who have spent a lot of time in the sport. Getting to a comfortable point with your grip, footwork, reach back and follow through will go a long way.

2. Drill Drill Drill
- Not that many people spend time really drilling their technique. If you look at any other competitive sport and those who excell, you'll notice really how much time they spend practicing. How many hours did Larry Bird spend in a gym shooting? How many balls did Tiger Woods hit over and over again at the range? A freaking ton, thats how many. How many drives have you thrown in the last week? Month? Year? Lets not fool ourselves, if we don't spend the time to get better, we shouldn't expect amazing results and/or scores on the course.

3. Speed Kills
- Like Scott said, until you get your arm speed up, the disc is going to have limitations. I have always had quick hands in the martial arts and in disc golf, and if I had to guess, I'd say I have more fast twitch muscle fibers in my arm/body than slow twitch. We will all have our own limitations on how fast our arm can move, but with practice and training, we should be able to reach our potential. In 2004, I was clocked at 66 MPH on both my backhand and sidearm. in 2011 I was clocked at 75 MPH on my back hand, only 4 MPH shy of Double G (aka the farthest throwing human on earth right now).

- Speed will at first kill your technique. Try to slow down and be smooth. Once you accomplish that, speed it up. Then, speed will kill the target when you blow up the chains from down town.

4. Understand the Disc
- Keep trying different discs to find what works well with your armspeed and spin. The typical "understable" discs such as valks and sidewinders should be displaying a S curve flight path (turning right initially and fading back left at the end). If not, there may be two things happening - 1. your release angle may be off, probably too much hyzer angle, I'd suggest throwing as flat as possible. 2. They really are just too much disc for you. I like the fact you use a Leopard and a Stratus. Do you notice a different flight with those discs than the faster drivers?
- Spend some time trying different heights and release angles. You'll be surpised how many different ways a single disc can fly when you try different things. Its a lot of fun and should help you get to know your discs better.
- Its hard to try everything out there, especially with the budget of most dg'ers. Get a hold of some friends and all decide to share some plastic, try other drivers out and see what happens.

Slow to Quick (Discraft guide of "understable" plastic).

Mids: Comet, Meteor, Glide
Fairway: Impact, Stratus
Drivers: Xpress, XS, XL, Cyclone
High Speed Drivers: Avenger SS, Flash, Surge SS, Nuke SS

Good luck on your pursuit of the game. Just as a reference, it took me a few months to hit 300. Then a summer later I started throwing high 300's. Then the next summer I cracked 400. And so on and so on. It will take time. Stick with it and have fun. If all else fails, just become a really good putter and still beat everyone who throws farther than you :)

[jdinteg]

Ron,
I liked your line:
"just become a really good putter and still beat everyone who throws farther than you"

Definitely my current strategy. May I add controlled upshot to the list of items I'm trying to focus on over raw distance, speed, and power. I have always liked Emma's advice to me of 100 practice putts each day. Weather in the PDGA or pga I do believe the mantra: "Drive for show, Putt for dough". But a consistent 400 foot drive would sure be nice to have.