Downriver: more and more disappointing with every change.

[jshrack]

I am amazed at the decisions that a couple individuals have taken upon making for the club. Who the hell gave Joe any authority and why the F&#% is he making decisions about our course layout? This is the same guy who makes illegal bonfires in the park and camps on the course... and he is making decisions on behalf of the club?!?

I guess the SDGA doesn't hold meetings during the tourney season... I don't really understand why... that is a whole different can of worms.

As a result though, I would like to make a public motion that ALL COURSE CHANGES are put on hold until they can be presented and discussed at the next SDGA meeting. This will give club members a chance to actually have input on the changes... currently we have 3-5 individuals making decisions on their own behest. The same people who decided to install a new Facilities Coordinator without club input... hmm...:whistler:

Last meeting, the Board insisted on having motions set in writing before they could be discussed and voted upon... I would like to see the minutes where these course changes were presented to the board, set in writing, and voted upon with a full quorum. If the changes were made without doing so, you are creating two very separate and hypocritical sets of standards.

Sets a pretty clear division between the Board and the club.

[psychodwarf]

I am amazed at the decisions that a couple individuals have taken upon making for the club. Who the hell gave Joe any authority and why the F&#% is he making decisions about our course layout? This is the same guy who makes illegal bonfires in the park and camps on the course... and he is making decisions on behalf of the club?!?

I guess the SDGA doesn't hold meetings during the tourney season... I don't really understand why... that is a whole different can of worms.

As a result though, I would like to make a public motion that ALL COURSE CHANGES are put on hold until they can be presented and discussed at the next SDGA meeting. This will give club members a chance to actually have input on the changes... currently we have 3-5 individuals making decisions on their own behest. The same people who decided to install a new Facilities Coordinator without club input... hmm...:whistler:

Last meeting, the Board insisted on having motions set in writing before they could be discussed and voted upon... I would like to see the minutes where these course changes were presented to the board, set in writing, and voted upon with a full quorum. If the changes were made without doing so, you are creating two very separate and hypocritical sets of standards.

Sets a pretty clear division between the Board and the club.

this is coming from the same guy who went in as a am for the glo night AND got beat by ANOTHER am ..oh wait isnt justin a pro ? justin you have nothing to say to me when you are down there ? but yet you HAVE ALOT to say ABOUT me here ..hmmmm .makes ya kinda wonder about this guy justin ...

[jshrack]

I take you calling me a Pro as a compliment, I guess I have picked up the game quickly.
Truthfully, I had a pretty dang good round tonight and Patrick played better.
(One of the many reasons I enjoy playing with Mr. H, he always pushes my game)

As for my comments, I don't think I could have been more clear in person.
"The changes made to Downriver, over the past 6 months, absolutely SUCK"
They are a hodge-podge of thumbers and un-necessary danger... and they don't add any spark to the course.

As unlikely as it seems, I hope the club decides to focus their efforts; to design a working course and construct a plan of to accomplish the task...
In the interim, I am making a public motion to "Stop all course changes being done without proper club authority."
I hope that is clear enough...

(thankfully the hb practice basket was authorized months ago *before Kev complains* :biggrin2: )

[jshrack]

I would also trust the person voicing his comments to the world under his own name rather than the one sending private messages.
Makes ya wonder... well not me :rockon:

My beef isn't with you, it is with the current direction of the course.
Please consider this perspective and I will try to mellow my comments.

[Kenos_Angel]

Well I think we have a board for a reason!!! Right Joe??? I also think if the board is doing things for the club & for the courses then their doing the job we voted them to do.. Whether it's to change holes on courses or appointing some one as a F.C. Again this is why we have A BOARD!!!!!
I believe people need to quit "POKIN THE BEAR"!!!!!

[jshrack]

"The mission of the Spokane Disc Golf Association has been to promote fair play and
set high competitive standards for the game of disc golf."
Well it doesn't seem like the Board buys in to the entirety of this mission statement any longer...
I would suggest a change but we can't even get the charter reviewed without Board intrusions.

Isn't it the job of the Board to represent the disc golf community...
or is it their job to over-ride the club and impart their own perspective?

This could account for the high rate of dedicated club members getting frustrated with the process...
Their are a small minority of us still voicing our discontent... their are a lot more people who have just quit trying after being ignored.

Something to consider. :yawn:

[jshrack]

Seems the Board could easily consolidate all the Parks Department expectations/rules into one document.
IF the Board were willing to do this, rather than occasionally coming up with new rules, it could allow the Spokane Disc Golf Community to present legitimate course designs to the club.
True, this was already done... and voted upon, and over-ridden; yet providing a clear set of guidelines for the design would bypass the historical issues.

I think (my opinion only) we should focus on spending our grant money at High Bridge this year and start developing a 2012 grant for Downriver. If we complete our current task at High Bridge, our future funding requests are much more likely to be granted.
The development of a new course design would be a wonderful way to focus our grant requests for next year.

[Wobbly Bob]

Justin, you are very vague concerning changes to the layout of Downriver.

What are these course changes that you speak of??

I have seen no recent changes to the layout of the course.

If your rant is concerning the erosion control on hole four, you may not be aware that the basket was starting to rock back and forth. This was due to the concrete being exposed on the downhill side. It was only a matter of time before someone leaned on it from the uphill side to send the basket rolling down the hill. I for one think that what Joe has done on hole four is a positive improvement to our course at Downriver.

“This temporal life on Earth is hard enough so let us not make it harder by wasting time with those who tear us down; but rather, with those who build us up.”

[mazza]

i could see if some one was just randomly changing pin placements, and or changing tee pads. but to build a wall on a hole to stop erosion is not a bad thing. and if by chance that change made effects ur normal shot. then that just to bad. and jack if u got beef with someone then go eat a pork chop. u don't have to like everyone. just have to put up with them for the short time ur around. i see the sdga has a great grp of ppl the 1 tounry i played there i was pleased. so i say every sit down have a beer and lets talk about the disc that smack that tree that one time

[jshrack]

So you are saying that anyone who wants can make 'positive improvements' to the course as they see fit?
Move a tee-pad without a motion, notice, or input...
Spray-paint an alternate onto the concrete for PRO or AM alternates...
Take the clippers down to the park at sunrise/sunset to do some 'off the record' trimming...
All of these actions have been demonized by the Board, yet justified when personally conducted.

I think you are undermining your own position here and are constructing a very slippery slope but I don't mind.

I will keep this new perspective in mind next time something 'needs improving.'*
Heck, considering the free for all perspective, do we even need a Facilities Coordinator any more?*

*sorry about the rhetoric/sarcasm that doesn't transmit very well through text.

[mazza]

no......moving teepads.....pin placement...cutting down of anything.....IS NOT OK....from what i read it was that someone was trying to stop erosion....i may have read it wrong....but i didn't read anything about anyone moving pins and or tee pads...and in stead of just pointing fingers y not jump in and help get things back on track

[jshrack]

You read about the most recent in a string of unapproved 'improvements.'
This is not an isolated incident.
Moving a tee-pad without a motion, notice, or input...
Spray-painting an alternate onto the concrete for PRO or AM tees...
Taking clippers down to the park at sunrise/sunset to do some 'off the record' trimming...
These are all examples of our Board members taking course alterations into their own hands.

I have done what I can to 'get things back on track.'
Bringing ideas and concepts to Board meetings, making sure they were in writing and ready for presentation to the club membership.
That has been my course and I have run into the brick walls.
This post is another one of those options, I can publicly make a motion to stop unapproved alterations.
I believe the current methods being used are sub-par and do not consider the input or the will of the community they are supposed to support.
I think we should all have the option to voice our concerns and ideas, the Board is not providing this resource by not holding club meetings.
As a result this is the best I can do, ask for the alterations to cease until alternatives can at least be considered and discussed.

[jshrack]

In essence, I am asking the board to adhere to it's own charter. :kissflowers:

"The Board will set the club agenda for its elected term."
We are five (5) months into the elected term (17 months for some Board members) and this has not been addressed.

"The Board reserves the right to approve or reject all measures presented to them."
Please either approve or reject my measure.

The current course alterations are being done outside the club structure.
I would love it if the club could be seen honoring it's community in a respectful way.

Give us an opportunity to have input on the course alterations.
Publicly post planned alterations for club comments.
Maybe even come up with a design goal that we could all work toward.
These are three (3) quick ideas our Board could consider to empower the club.

[Wobbly Bob]

Justin, two weeks ago on a sunny Saturday I sat at Downriver and watched people driving from hole eleven.

People had been complaining online about how dangerous eleven was because people were driving blindly onto hole one's green (I believe you yourself posted something concerning this).

I saw someone almost get nailed that day. I called Jeff, Gordy, Jon, and Kevin (board members) and got the change on eleven approved.

[jshrack]

Scary change to be approved on a whim... but I am glad to hear it was at least approved.
Although it was my understanding that any measures approved by the Board had to be in writing, has this changed since the last meeting?

As for that change (on 11,) which has been called for a long time and ignored.
Why the current position and why done in such a hurry?
The rubber tee has set up a completely blind hole.
I have continued to see shots hit #1, especially from the atrociously painted AM tee.
That and the fact that more shots now land on #11's tee, better than the pin but still...
This change could have been considered by the club and made by the club, quite possibly the same way with less fallout.

This hodge podge of changes is doing our course and club a dis-service.
Please either approve or reject my measure.

[Burge]

Justin,

As a witness to your comments at the end of last glow night, I would say that Joe is being more than generous by calling you a 'pro' because your conduct was anything but professional. Your parting shot was a bit more vehement and scatological than you are representing in this thread, and was made as you marched off the course and tore out of the parking lot amidst the shocked silence of the few players left at tourney central--hardly any room for an intelligent, or respectful, conversation there...

Your next choice of action, this pet rant of yours, is still born of the same anger and scatological choice of vocabulary, and includes an attempted character assassination of Joe--hardly the act of a 'pro'. There are very few members of this community that can devote any significant, much less consistent, amount of time to the maintenance and improvement of our courses and Joe is one of those very few. Even though you may have 'toned down' your comments, your continued railroading of the board to either approve or reject your 'measure' is still a thinly veiled attempt to directly shut down Joe's efforts at Downriver--which really makes no sense since they are part of an ongoing need to address erosion and safety issues on the course.

For you to continue to refer to your effort within this thread as a 'measure' is a dis-ingenuous attempt to hijack the board's own documentation and lend credibility to something that you originally referred to as a 'public motion', for which, there is no SDGA documentation to support such an action being carried forth within this online venue. In fact, your entire effort here exists wholly outside of any respect of club procedure and practice, that you purport to champion, and should be ignored by the board altogether. Measures presented to the board for them to approve or reject are intended to be done so within a scheduled club/board meeting that offers an adequate opportunity for club members to be present--not within an online discussion forum that does not satisfactorily represent the populace or opinion of the club at any one given time.

Furthermore, I think your efforts on this thread are doing a great dis-service to the club and the community in general since your specific complaints (teepad for #11 and erosion control on#4), have been shown to be not only approved of, but necessary. It is blatantly hypocritical, if not downright arrogant, for you to think that you can bring about some radically non-procedural, yet seemingly authoritative action by the board, based intrinsically on nothing more than your own personal opinion and social capital within the club.

With that being said, I respectfully request that you cease your efforts here, with this so called 'measure' of yours, because it's not a 'measure', it is not representative of any consensus of thought, and serves no justifiable benefit to the course, club or community.

[jshrack]

I see you have thought through your comments and have made a few very good points.
To address a few:
I am not a 'Pro' and surely do not consider myself as such, I don't even qualify as ADV under my current rating, yet I often step up to play with better golfers and put my money where my mouth is. Although, this whole discussion leads me to wonder how you heard my comments in person yet Joe did not...


"For you to continue to refer to your effort within this thread as a 'measure' is a dis-ingenuous attempt to hijack the board's own documentation and lend credibility to something that you originally referred to as a 'public motion', for which, there is no SDGA documentation to support such an action being carried forth within this online venue."

This 'documentation' has been the Board's justification for a lot of it's decisions as of late, why wouldn't it be the basis for this one?

You also make a very good point that no Board action is official unless conducted at a meeting, undermining the very Board decisions you are trying to justify... making a decision over the phone without public discussion or a quorum?
As for the difference between 'public motion' and 'measure,' I believe a measure is the result of a 'public motion.'
I publicly made a motion (asked for the board to take a measure under consideration) through the official SDGA public forum.
If the Board were willing to conduct a Club Meeting during our prime operating season, I would be happy to make this motion at that point... this is not the case.


"your continued railroading of the board to either approve or reject your 'measure' is still a thinly veiled attempt to directly shut down Joe's efforts at Downriver"

First off, this is clearly written into the Charter, "The Board reserves the right to approve or reject all measures presented to them." The board does not reserve the right to NOT approve or reject a measure. I am asking the Board to adhere to it's duty. While I can understand your assumptions, they are not correct. This measure is to get the Board to decide if it would like it's club members to take Course Improvements into their own hands or whether it should follow it's own past guidelines by restricting such actions. Joe's actions are done with the best of intentions and I appreciate that, yet they still aren't justified. I don't think I am the first to say that...

As for people not having time to spend improving the course... I would be happy to step onto the course to conduct Course Improvements and know many others who would do the same, yet I was told that it was absolutely frowned upon when people take course improvements upon themselves. (Remember the reaction to Yoduh's alternate tee on 18?!?) I thought this Board position was an understandable and justified stance... I wonder why it has changed. I would like it clarified.

[jshrack]

Hey golfers! What is YOUR input?
http://www.nwdiscgolfnews.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7162

[Kenos_Angel]

Justin how many times a week do you go clean that park?
How many hours a week do you spend picking up the garbage?
How many nites can you account for replacing the trash bags?

Now how many hours on here do u spend complaining about whats being done there?
How many hours do you spend playing there?

[jshrack]

Good points and well taken.
I have been avoiding DR due to the changes... it frustrates me to play that course anymore.
I do pick up any garbage I see, but no I do not collect cans like Joe. I have expressed this appreciation.

Although, I really don't see the association between these two comments:
I don't have a right to ask for club input unless I pick up Garbage?
No complaints here, just a poll.

http://www.nwdiscgolfnews.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7162

Anyway, I will probably lend a hand at the work party, assuming all permanent projects have been approved by Bressler.

[psychodwarf]

Anyway, I will probably lend a hand at the work party, assuming all permanent projects have been approved by Bressler.

Speaking on that justin Bressler and I will be walking DR sometime this week and so far the talk Bressler and I had today he was QUITE happy with what has been going on at DR but he MADE a suggestion that "we just move the holes that have problems and if we make some club members mad so what" ..THOSE WERE HIS WORDS .. i told him to come down and walk the course and then HE can decide if what I have done is wrong.As for the this comment Although, this whole discussion leads me to wonder how you heard my comments in person yet Joe did not...
i had nothing bad to say to you then nor do i now .. i heard your comments i just choose to be an adult and not respond to such a childish act .

[jshrack]

Sweet!
I am glad you got Bressler to look over the changes!

I will also quit bitching and adopt your 'who cares who gets mad' approach... sounds like this is officially the Board perspective!
New motto: If it makes the course better...
:cheers:

Now, you called me out for not expressing myself in person... insulted ME and questioned my integrity... yet you heard every word I had to say. Odd... :dancing:

[Lyounger]

I guess I really don't understand what all the confusion and fuss is about here...

This is my recollection:

Several years ago the SDGA was responding to evergrowing safety concerns due to the crossing fairways. In addition, the city expressed concerns about erosion and path beat down.

The overwhelming opinion of the club at that time was a complete redesign. However, we were towards the end of the season and didn't want to make major changes without getting as much input as possible.

Some (immediate) minor changes were proposed to address the major safety and environmental concerns and a call went out for redesign ideas that could be implemented early the following spring.

These two agendas got convoluted and confused with one another. A polarity began that I don't believe was founded.

The board was new and had growing pains. The communication and progress stalled. Members were not keeping up with deadlines for input to either design and felt left out when decisions were made. The whole thing turned into a cluster and the only result was some temporary changes to try to address the safety and erosion issues.

It's well expressed that these changes have diluted the course and very few are even remotely happy about them.

Soooooooo....NOW is the perfect time to start gathering input for a total course redesign for DownRiver. The club and Board can set deadlines for proposals in phases so they can be reviewed and narrowed down to the best possible layout to be voted on by the club members and installed early next spring.

This time those of you who felt so left out will have another opportunity to be heard and be able to vote for the features you like best. You will just have to pay attention to the deadlines for input and the dates for voting on layouts.

It is very possible to do this in a democratic manner with consideration going to the city's requirements. The club has worked out some of it's communication difficulties and I believe this project could be very successful. We would end up with a challenging course, endorsed by the majority of clubmembers and compliant with the city's requirements.

Heck, it might even bring the club together in a stronger way with more casual/rec players joining so they could provide input and more mutual respect amongst all the members.

I definitely will do everything I can to make it to the next SDGA meeting and bring this up as a topic for discussion.

[organic]

Downriver is beginning to be a joke! I wonder who put all those trees and branches on the bank of hole 8? I threw my disc down there today and was lucky to not come out with a twisted or broken ankle! Safety should be the first concern!

[Sky Pilot]

To whomever it may concern,

Unauthorized work at Downriver needs to stop. This includes branch or rock piling, cutting trees, painting asphalt and the like. At Taylor's request, golfers should not be contacting him - No one outside of the Board except Justin Shrack has been asked to talk to him - and that was only about the Grant from the Park Foundation.

The SDGA Board working under the City Parks Operation Manager is the structure we operate under. I've had a very fruitful relationship with Taylor and have been the primary contact person and will continue to do that until further notice. If anyone wants to know what has been fruitful about that they can call me and we'll talk.

Sky Pilot

[General Scales]

Downriver is beginning to be a joke! I wonder who put all those trees and branches on the bank of hole 8? I threw my disc down there today and was lucky to not come out with a twisted or broken ankle! Safety should be the first concern!

I would also agree with that. Although those tree's and branches saved a terrible skip into the water yesterday. I for one, just hope that everyone decides to get along and make Downriver great again. As it is, all this bickering between club members on a public, online forum is terrible. What a way to make people look at us Spokanites in a less than pleasant way.

[Wobbly Bob]

Downriver is beginning to be a joke! I wonder who put all those trees and branches on the bank of hole 8? I threw my disc down there today and was lucky to not come out with a twisted or broken ankle! Safety should be the first concern!

Did you take a penalty stroke for throwing over the edge. That area is out of bounds.

[LJ Jubner]

Nice post Younger!
You seem to have a firm grip on the subject. The cause/effect of poor or inconsistent communications and the clubs opportunity for growth.

One positive thing I can say about the club is: members are given many opportunities to participate
but
fail to recognize that deadlines are the most critical part of the process, there is no half credit for missing the deadline.

I would like to suggest (as a club member) a general meeting is called for sometime in late June early July. This meeting would be a winter pre-planner. I mean ideas would be floated/discussed and then vetted for consideration at the winter meeting.

Action: If club member has an interest with any club issues they should submit a two or three paragraph note for the Summer meeting's agenda. Then the board can round up all the ideas sort them by perceived need and allot time accordingly for there discussion.

Problem: Suggestions and attendance are both critical!

Want to know why things are the way they are?

It's because by default/member apathy the same 4-8 members are the only ones participating throughout the process.

jub

[LJ Jubner]

Nice post Younger!
You seem to have a firm grip on the subject. The cause/effect of poor or inconsistent communications and the clubs opportunity for growth.

One positive thing I can say about the club is: members are given many opportunities to participate
but
fail to recognize that deadlines are the most critical part of the process, there is no half credit for missing the deadline.

I would like to suggest (as a club member) a general meeting is called for sometime in late June early July. This meeting would be a winter pre-planner. I mean ideas would be floated/discussed and then vetted for consideration at the winter meeting.

Action: If club member has an interest with any club issues they should submit a two or three paragraph note for the Summer meeting's agenda. Then the board can round up all the ideas sort them by perceived need and allot time accordingly for there discussion.

Problem: Suggestions and attendance are both critical!

Want to know why things are the way they are?

It's because by default/member apathy the same 4-8 members are the only ones participating throughout the process.

jub

additional thought

By publishing the agenda as well as who suggested them Like minders could intern combine all their efforts into one presentation. Saving both time and frustration

[organic]

That's funny cause that's never been played that way in any tournament I've ever played!

[Wobbly Bob]

That's funny cause that's never been played that way in any tournament I've ever played!

You are correct and I miss spoke earlier concerning out of bounds there.

At present it is not OB, but it will be OB at the LCO this year.

The area in question may be under consideration for OB status due to the erosion that takes place every time someone throws down there.

[cefire]

Sweet!
I am glad you got Bressler to look over the changes!

I will also quit bitching and adopt your 'who cares who gets mad' approach... sounds like this is officially the Board perspective!
New motto: If it makes the course better...
:cheers:

Now, you called me out for not expressing myself in person... insulted ME and questioned my integrity... yet you heard every word I had to say. Odd... :dancing:

Sounds to me like y'all got a new board member for next term! :D

[Whippetbrown]

Its been a while since I been on here, looks to be the same type of stuff going on in the forum, sorta comical always good for a laugh. Have fun I'm going to throw.