Td's getting paid

[LJ Jubner]

Now that the shine is off the previous thread with the same title.
I thought we should start a serious discussion about compensating TD's.

So far the response has pretty much been " It's OK for a TD to make money off the field" (not to be confused with making money off the Am's scrip).

My questions are
What type of gratuity do TD's deserve?

Pat on the back
Cash

If cash?
Gross
Net
only added cash


how much?
straight fee,
tip jar
%, If so >5%, 5-10%, < 10%


Prioritize these in level of importance 1 being most 4 being least

Sponsorship for expenses
Sponsorship for added cash
Course maintenance
Professionalisum of event


This is a chance for us to have a real discussion about this

[emmarose]

dude. this is so last week.

[LegoRules]

dude. this is so last week.

Why in the world do we need another thread started on this. :slapface:

[LJ Jubner]

for the very reasons why you both seem so disgusted by it

It's something that's needs to be discussed and in a more positive fashion and tone.

[Kevin Madrid]

Why in the world do we need another thread started on this. :slapface:

BECAUSE JUB GOT KICK OFF THE SITE FOR A WEEK. JUB let the poor horse die on it's own. SERIOUS :jumpspin:

[Skookum]

After putting some thought into this I think it should go something like this:

1: PDGA Rules should be followed.
2: Finances should be closed, with the exception of charity and fund raiser tournaments.

I see nothing good coming from public finances. It is a proven fact you can't please everyone, so the only thing publicizing finances can do is upset some people. I don't go to a retail store and ask to see their quarterly statement before I purchase a product so what is so different about a tournament that I should have this right all of a sudden?

I say TDs should throw tournaments and player should go. If a player had a great time and felt they got taken care of in proportion to the entrance fee then they should come back next year. If they feel like it was a sub *Par production, please for the love of god/s don't come back next year. We have this common complaint about how there are so many tournaments now competing for the player base and at the risk of sounding like a Republican I say "Let the open market decide who runs the best tournaments and if they make money off it, well they deserve it."


This bit is for Kilmer
I understand where your coming from on many of your points. Why do TDs get paid when the volunteers/club members don't? In most cases TDs should be paying for the use of the course and hosting a tournament is a great motivator for the club to get out and do things they were going to do anyways. I believe the clubs get out and do their prep out of a sense of pride so that their course looks as good as it can for the tournament players and the TD renting the course. If the compensation for this work the club is doing isn't enough than thats a negotiation that needs to happen between the TD and the club.

If someone was going to run a tournament on my clubs course we would get out and spruce it up and not for the money. We would spruce it up for the same reason you would, we love our course and we love the sport. The tournament finances would have nothing to do with our desire to be magnanimous hosts to the disc golf community.

I have no desire to make any profit from disc golf but I won't be standing in judgement of other TD on anything other than the quality of product they provide(this includes following standards and guide lines.) If I pay my money and feel I had a great time why should it mater how much money they made.

I am running a tournament in August and I want it to be awesome. We are shooting to create an annual can't miss event in Mason County but at this time I have no intention of making our finances public. Please come play in our event and weigh you experience against your entrance fee and if your not satisfied I encourage you to give me an earful. I will listen and endeavor to do better.

*Par - I feel like I need to explain this term to Jub... or maybe that another thread all together...

[snap7times]

well i must say it is a subject that has been swept under the rug for a while and I personally feel that players give too much pressure to TD's to pay out the most possible and if the players find out the TD's kept some money to compensate for their time and effort, they will be lynched... There are so many tournaments that I go to that are supposed to be fundraisers and yet I see the TD's apologizing to players who win prizes or money, that it wasn't as much as it could be. Really? The TD put on a tournament and did the work, why are they apologizing to the players and why should the TD feel any pressure from players to give 100 percent back to the players especially at C tiers and FUNDRAISERS.
Focus for any TD should be Maps, course preparation, tournament central presentation, useful player pack items like snacks or something we can really use on the course.
As a TD myself, I have never kept cash, but kept left over prizes and used these in future events, gave them away to newbies or as sponsorship to other events, or sold them to compensate for my time, because I felt the pressure if I kept any cash, I would be publically lynched, even if the PDGA says I can keep up to $100.
There are too many disc golfers out there that think everything should be dirt cheap and free, and too many disc golfers who think the payout should be 200+%... TD's want to please as many people as possible but it's impossible because some want this, some want that... Jub is just trying to see what is preferred by the people in the NW...

As a TD, I strive to present a quick and efficient tournament central, meaning quick sign ups, player packs, quick meetings, get out and get the rounds in, smooth lunch with no extension, then quick wrap up and awards so people can hit the road home. Putting in time on the course prep and maps is important long before the tournament... Hole sponsorships are very important to cover the expenses of the tournament. Left over cash can be used as the TD needs to maximize their tournament.

For example, for the 2nd annual Camp Taloali fundraiser coming up in May, I have already fronted over 1 thousand dollars of my own money for the tournament and spent at least 30 hours on course prep, and that is not counting what more i will invest in the next month. I just hope I will make back all that money back and that people will have a great time during the tournament; yet I expect people to question my work and think being a TD is a easy job and so forth...

Just thought I would add a perspective regardless of what or what did not happen at the CSI and Jub... What did happen is that he did put on a tournament and you guys went and played... dont like something, fill out a TD feedback form that is printable off the PDGA website so he can improve... ;)

Thanks to Chase and Jason Back for putting on great fundraisers recently!

[emmarose]

for the very reasons why you both seem so disgusted by it

It's something that's needs to be discussed and in a more positive fashion and tone.

hey, now! turn that frown upside down... i thought i was being funny... not disgusted...

... oh! right! dammit all, will i ever remember to use emoticons?!

[NWDiscer]

After putting some thought into this I think it should go something like this:

1: PDGA Rules should be followed.
2: Finances should be closed, with the exception of charity and fund raiser tournaments.

I see nothing good coming from public finances. It is a proven fact you can't please everyone, so the only thing publicizing finances can do is upset some people. I don't go to a retail store and ask to see their quarterly statement before I purchase a product so what is so different about a tournament that I should have this right all of a sudden?

I say TDs should throw tournaments and player should go. If a player had a great time and felt they got taken care of in proportion to the entrance fee then they should come back next year. If they feel like it was a sub *Par production, please for the love of god/s don't come back next year. We have this common complaint about how there are so many tournaments now competing for the player base and at the risk of sounding like a Republican I say "Let the open market decide who runs the best tournaments and if they make money off it, well they deserve it."





:yay::rockon::trophy: :cheers:

[Sam]

I don't understand what the complaints are about. This thread is obviously different.

One had the title "TD's getting paid" while this one has the title "Td's getting paid."

Why they are as different as night and... later that night...

[DoubleDees]

I think TD's do deserve to be compensated. reasonably. When there is no effort made to obtain added money.

The PDGA has tour guidelines and standards that are to be followed by players and TDs.

PERIOD.

[mine all mine]

I see nothing good coming from public finances. It is a proven fact you can't please everyone, so the only thing publicizing finances can do is upset some people. I don't go to a retail store and ask to see their quarterly statement before I purchase a product so what is so different about a tournament that I should have this right all of a sudden?


Actually, with a quick google search you can find the finances of any publicly traded company. Just sayin...

[SPIDER-DAN]

well i must say it is a subject that has been swept under the rug for a while and i personally feel that players give too much pressure to td's to pay out the most possible and if the players find out the td's kept some money to compensate for their time and effort, they will be lynched... There are so many tournaments that i go to that are supposed to be fundraisers and yet i see the td's apologizing to players who win prizes or money, that it wasn't as much as it could be. Really? The td put on a tournament and did the work, why are they apologizing to the players and why should the td feel any pressure from players to give 100 percent back to the players especially at c tiers and fundraisers.
Focus for any td should be maps, course preparation, tournament central presentation, useful player pack items like snacks or something we can really use on the course.
As a td myself, i have never kept cash, but kept left over prizes and used these in future events, gave them away to newbies or as sponsorship to other events, or sold them to compensate for my time, because i felt the pressure if i kept any cash, i would be publically lynched, even if the pdga says i can keep up to $100.
There are too many disc golfers out there that think everything should be dirt cheap and free, and too many disc golfers who think the payout should be 200+%... Td's want to please as many people as possible but it's impossible because some want this, some want that... Jub is just trying to see what is preferred by the people in the nw...

As a td, i strive to present a quick and efficient tournament central, meaning quick sign ups, player packs, quick meetings, get out and get the rounds in, smooth lunch with no extension, then quick wrap up and awards so people can hit the road home. Putting in time on the course prep and maps is important long before the tournament... Hole sponsorships are very important to cover the expenses of the tournament. Left over cash can be used as the td needs to maximize their tournament.

For example, for the 2nd annual camp taloali fundraiser coming up in may, i have already fronted over 1 thousand dollars of my own money for the tournament and spent at least 30 hours on course prep, and that is not counting what more i will invest in the next month. I just hope i will make back all that money back and that people will have a great time during the tournament; yet i expect people to question my work and think being a td is a easy job and so forth...

Just thought i would add a perspective regardless of what or what did not happen at the csi and jub... What did happen is that he did put on a tournament and you guys went and played... Dont like something, fill out a td feedback form that is printable off the pdga website so he can improve... ;)

thanks to chase and jason back for putting on great fundraisers recently!

one of the better post i actually read.......nice!!! Skookum, of course yours was nice too..........cant wait to sign up for the shelton springs tournament.

[Parks]

I see nothing good coming from public finances. It is a proven fact you can't please everyone, so the only thing publicizing finances can do is upset some people.

Is the that the only thing that public finances can do? Or just your assumption?

Closed finances piss a lot of people off more than open finances, even if they don't 100% agree with the open finance statement.

Some people make the assumption that you're trying to hide something if you refuse to show where the money went.

I know that Jub's willingness to show the breakdown for CSI definitely made it clear that the people throwing accusations at him were either baseless or really bad at proving their point. So public finances can satiate people, and not just upset them.

[Skookum]

and what closed finances are you pissed off about?

[Parks]

Pissed isn't the word I would use, as I don't think I've ever been pissed about a tournament with either open or closed finances. I probably should've said upset in the previous post.

However, I was... ambivalent (?) is maybe the word, about Jub's CSI stuff until I saw his finance page. I was essentially waiting to see how it played out. I would've been uneasy if Jub hadn't defended himself in the face of the accusations by opening up a little bit, and I might've been pissed if I had participated and cashed in the tournament without him being able to open the books in the face of such accusations.

[Skookum]

The level of exposure of Jub's finances had nothing to do people being dissatisfied. The finance issues came after folks where unhappy with their tournament experience.

[Parks]

The level of exposure of Jub's finances had nothing to do people being dissatisfied. The finance issues came after folks where unhappy with their tournament experience.

While that certainly may be true, it isn't what was represented on this board.

I just saw several people posting on here hopping mad angry about Jub supposedly skimming $450 for himself from the purse. Kilmers, for example, seems focused on the finances and TD's getting paid in general.

[Skookum]

That is due to Jubs posts in response to inquiries about payout. He did not do a good job of presenting the information. If you go read the CSI to split weekends thread you'd see at first it did appear by his own posts that he took 450 it wasn't until later that the full finances were revealed that it showed most the money going to expenses. I think if you read that thread you will see based on timeline that the dissatisfaction started before any let alone full finances were disclosed. It starts around post #114 in the CSI to Split Wekends thread in the Washington Events section.

[Parks]

Yea, I've been through that thread and I didn't see the previous dissatisfaction with Jub's tournament, just nearly 7 pages of BS about par which gets brought up every time there is anything run at Seatac.

I agree with you 100% that Jub didn't do a good job of presenting the info regarding the expenses. The problem didn't initiate with Jub being open about the finances, and if he had just posted that PDGA form with all the expenses intact in the first place showing the $100 fee and $32 profit then I feel like the only person that would still be mad would be the people that believe TDs should not make anything off a tournament.

[LJ Jubner]

...Mikk; Transparency is key .That's where I failed! I listed some deductions on my flyer but those changed and I alone neglected to address them. I knew long before that I would be taking a cut from the open weekend and should have voiced it (like everything else) loudly!

I compounded the problem by not using terms/values DG know and accept. Instead of the word "cut" or Yoduh's (Scam) I should have just listed every deduction as well as the per player fee I intended to charge. Each of which was a conscience decision I made along the way. Judge me on those choices and their value and what you received not on how you felt.

I'd like to beleive that by posting the financial page of the tournament paperwork clears up any controversy.
and
That I set a precedent that all TD's make this page of their paperwork publicly available

Will I do it differently next time? Certainly. but will be for free? No.

One thing is for sure

Now when everyone of you looks at payouts you will pay more attention. If you see something you don't like say it then.
jub


This is a learning moment. Can we survive with innuendo and conjecture? Online sure, but in the real world No.

By offering transparency we will see just how efficient our TD's are, what and how they assign value to their efforts. Our biggest challenge is to actually get golfers to respond with feedback
Just thought I would add a perspective regardless of what or what did not happen at the CSI and Jub... What did happen is that he did put on a tournament and you guys went and played... don't like something, fill out a TD feedback form that is printable off the PDGA website so he can improve... ;)

Or you can fill out this online survey as a local option with improvement as it's goal. I do want to thank the 3 who have responded

<a href="http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=0lwq4ns34oqas6w895646" >

I don't know what else I can do to help make my event better

[DoubleDees]

a good start would be following the tour standards.

[TYVEK]

jub, the link for the survey isnt correct. with a little deductive reasoning i found the survey, and after looking through it i think that it needs some more work on some of the questions. most of the latter questions might have been done better by having more options or worded differently. but i did fill out the survey the best i could.

thanks for pursuing this and trying to make your events better. i wish more people would give you actuall input so that you can accomplish what you are trying to do.

[LJ Jubner]

If I had my way the TD's would be paid on a sliding scale (just like the tiers) but for this each would have to publish all the numbers and be held to a higher standards apporiate to their tier. The only short coming of this process is the golfer who can't or won't be bothered to respond. Apathy Kills!

This revenue could actually support more then just the weekend players. Like the port o let for 3 months instead of 3 days. It could also be used to reward volunteers with actual wages for helping or heaven forbid Tournament Sponsored Comped Entry. "That's right! Each and everyone of you contributed x $'s for this persons entry for doing ...." The opportunity is there for every golfer all they have to do is know they will be recognized for their help!

jub scale
$4 for C
$6 for B (after $300 added cash disperesed across the entire field),
and a wopping $10 for A (after $1500? added cash dispersed across the entire field)

These ideas would compensate TD's for hunting sponsors without under valuing the ones who want to do it for the sport