TD's getting paid

[Discgolfingkilmers]

I do not agree with TD's getting paid for x-c-b tiers !!!!!
All the players that are at the work parties are not getting paid so why should the TD? There are other players helping out like the club members should they be paid also?
This is a problem that we are coming up against and i think we as players should END it this year.
We need to make these TD's that are going to take money for themselves make that known before we sign up and pay, not Sunday morning when we have no say to change it. We are there to golf and compete not dicker with the TD over payout.
WE AS PLAYERS NEED TO CHANGE THIS!!!! STAND UP AND SAY NO MORE
Ask all TD'S before you sign up if they are taking money out to pay themselves. better yet lets make them post it in the flyer or online so we know.
The more this happens and TD's get away with it the harder it will be to change it later. WE AS PLAYERS CAN STOP THIS

[Jason Philips]

Well people at McDonalds don't work at a fine dining restaurant so they shouldn't get paid either, right? Only those people at 4 star restaurants and above deserve anything.

I am all for people making money if they so choose. From what I have seen even casual tournaments are not the easiest thing to run. Time and effort are involved. I'll happily pay into a tournament where someone who put it on gets paid.

YMMV

[Jeff Hemmerling]

There's no way to stop this (since it's not illegal). Just vote with your feet (and money).

However it's completely reasonble to ask TD's to be up front about their cut (if any). That way players can make an informed decision.

[Mikk]

I agree with Jason. Work parties benifit everybody that plays at the course, not just the tourney players. I have hosted tourneys and never got paid for it, this was my choice. However those TD's that do take pay for hosting a tourney diserve it. It takes alot of work to run a tournament and I for one wouldn't say otherwise if the TD is getting some of the $ for his/her efforts IMO.

[Sean Phillips]

I do not agree with TD's getting paid for x-c-b tiers !!!!!

How many tournaments have you ran?

[LJ Jubner]

I posted a small survey on the CSI thread Hopefully players will take the time to fill it out. It can be filled out by players from both weekends. I beleive the WSS is also considering something like this so consider this a test of the process.

[The Brodys]

I always end up paying money to TD my tournaments. I am doing something wrong here.

[Jason Philips]

However it's completely reasonble to ask TD's to be up front about their cut (if any). That way players can make an informed decision.

I can understand the want to see amounts publicly but honestly unless it is a noted non-profit type event I think it is TD's choice and not any of ours.

Communities of people cannot be self sustaining without paying the people who participate at a higher level. As with any sport, art, music, and any other community; the people who are at their best are those who can dedicate themselves full-time.

Can anyone as a TD say they wouldn't be able to better a tournament with more time to focus on it? The way this happens is creating a self sustaining community. And unfortunately until some other economic situation takes over that does mean money will go into the pockets of people doing work. A competitive market of tournaments and events would relegate who succeeded and who didn't.

I understand the ethos of doing something you love for free but it isn't sustaining and creates a high level of burnout.

[Sean Phillips]

I always end up paying money to TD my tournaments. I am doing something wrong here.

Not wrong, just very generous. I think TD's should take ~5% then adjust according to demand. If you bust your butt getting sponsorship money, bump it to 10% or 15%

If you had a C tier with an entry of $40, TD gets $2 per player X 72 players = $144. I would attend that tournament time and time again.

[Sam]

If you had a C tier with an entry of $40, TD gets $2 per player X 72 players = $144. I would attend that tournament time and time again.

Ditto. Also... good question before. I am thinking that the answer is 0. 0 tournaments run would be my guess.

[sillybizz]

I do not agree with TD's getting paid for x-c-b tiers !!!!!
All the players that are at the work parties are not getting paid so why should the TD? There are other players helping out like the club members should they be paid also?
This is a problem that we are coming up against and i think we as players should END it this year.
We need to make these TD's that are going to take money for themselves make that known before we sign up and pay, not Sunday morning when we have no say to change it. We are there to golf and compete not dicker with the TD over payout.
WE AS PLAYERS NEED TO CHANGE THIS!!!! STAND UP AND SAY NO MORE
Ask all TD'S before you sign up if they are taking money out to pay themselves. better yet lets make them post it in the flyer or online so we know.
The more this happens and TD's get away with it the harder it will be to change it later. WE AS PLAYERS CAN STOP THIS

Really? REALLY? Are you serial?

We have such a hard time finding tournament directors willing to put on events as is especially someone like Jub who puts in so much time and effort on this thing like he does every year. The amount of time it takes to burn out tournament directors is faster than a Hollywood wedding. If you don't like that TD's get paid than don't play, seems pretty simple to me. These people are doing a service to you by putting on the event and should be paid but I think Dan put it best:

I'm curious what the hourly wage would come out to, if you took all of the hours Jub put in working on the course (for these tournaments) and running both weekends compared to the amount of money he actually pocketed after.

I'm guessing it's not a number very many of us would work for.

[Kevin Madrid]

How about TD's for weeklies do they deserve to take out of the kitty? Just asking because this summer I'll be throwing 20 weekly tournies (10yrs and going) I make my own scorecards, keep records, hold the money, try to get CTP's, and oh yeah take time off from work early to run the tourney.

If so I missed this boat a looooooong time ago. :slapface:

[Jason Philips]

How about TD's for weeklies do they deserve to take out of the kitty? Just asking because this summer I'll be throwing 20 weekly tournies (10yrs and going) I make my own scorecards, keep records, hold the money, try to get CTP's, and oh yeah take time off from work early to run the tourney.

If so I missed this boat a looooooong time ago. :slapface:

You are a perfect example of someone I think that should be making a small amount. I am not talking a six figure salary but a little bit of money to cover expenses and time.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Check out page 3 for the max event management fees allowed at different tiers: http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/TourStandards.pdf

That's after the TD meets the minimum payout requirements. Taking a percentage for sponsorship money raised or from sales is not necessarily included in this calculation but they can be if TD desires to post more complete financials for the event. It's essentially from the retail/wholesale differential on Am entry fees.

[sillybizz]

How about TD's for weeklies do they deserve to take out of the kitty? Just asking because this summer I'll be throwing 20 weekly tournies (10yrs and going) I make my own scorecards, keep records, hold the money, try to get CTP's, and oh yeah take time off from work early to run the tourney.

If so I missed this boat a looooooong time ago. :slapface:

I was running a weekly doubles event every week last year and I put a jar out for tips. That way the people who don't think you should get paid don't have to pay in and the people who want to give back to the TD get to and no one is turned away by "taking their money out of the pot".

[RonTheWhip]

Haha, that first post got me a bit worked up. But everyone here more or less said what I was feeling. I have TD'd over twenty events, some small (really small) and some not so small (Willamette Open, B tier once, A tier once). I've had both negative and positive feedback, but on a whole I am under the impression people have a lot of fun at my events, feel the payouts are generous and generally satisfied. Am I making a living off running tournaments? NO. Am I making a profit on my tournament? SOMETIMES. Am I upfront and forthcoming of my intentions to make money and share with the "customers" how much I made? ALWAYS.

If you are trying to do it right and host an event that people in the future will deem worthy of attendance, its just too plain hard to sustain the effort without some compensation. Now perhaps If I won the lottery I'd do everthing for free, so heck, you all can start registering for my events with powerball tickets :)

[Discgolfingkilmers]

jub got paid more than the pro that won ! so far i am the only one that thinks that's not ok . I would rather stand up and call BS then allow it to continue! 20 $ a head was taken out and 8 $ went in his pocket per person. Now tell me i am wrong! that is more then is allowed by PDGA standards. Are we not following those rules? I am a member and as a member i can put a stop to this.And yes i will not be playing any jub events in the future i have no need to pay someone to put on a shitty event. PDGA allows TD's to be paid ,I don't like it, but this is something else

[RonTheWhip]

jub got paid more than the pro that won ! so far i am the only one that thinks that's not ok . I would rather stand up and call BS then allow it to continue! 20 $ a head was taken out and 8 $ went in his pocket per person. Now tell me i am wrong! that is more then is allowed by PDGA standards. Are we not following those rules? I am a member and as a member i can put a stop to this.And yes i will not be playing any jub events in the future i have no need to pay someone to put on a shitty event. PDGA allows TD's to be paid ,I don't like it, but this is something else

Oh my. Well I can't verify any of this information personally, but it seems you ought to have been more specific with your initial post Mark. Do you really wish TDs to never make any money running events? Or do you only wish its in proportion to the size and quality of the event?

This seems a bit on the personal side, have you talked with Jub or alerted the PDGA?

[Discgolfingkilmers]

sillybizz your a dumbass for putting out a tip jar. everyone wants to profit off doing something can not just help or volunteer there time. Have been playing and helping for 20 years and not once did it put money in my pocket. I donate my time maybe some of you should to

[LJ Jubner]

So your ax to grind is about me personally then good to know. Believe me if I could ever keep someone out of my sanctioned event it would be you Mark


To answer Sean and How many sanctioned events has Mark personally run? I beleive it's ZERO.

[LJ Jubner]

sillybizz your a dumbass for putting out a tip jar. everyone wants to profit off doing something can not just help or volunteer there time. Have been playing and helping for 20 years and not once did it put money in my pocket. I donate my time maybe some of you should to

This is a good one I am pretty sure Mark I have performed more volunteerisum hours in half the time you have been playing and what you call helping

[JMan]

I do not agree with TD's getting paid for x-c-b tiers !!!!!
All the players that are at the work parties are not getting paid so why should the TD? There are other players helping out like the club members should they be paid also?
This is a problem that we are coming up against and i think we as players should END it this year.
We need to make these TD's that are going to take money for themselves make that known before we sign up and pay, not Sunday morning when we have no say to change it. We are there to golf and compete not dicker with the TD over payout.
WE AS PLAYERS NEED TO CHANGE THIS!!!! STAND UP AND SAY NO MORE
Ask all TD'S before you sign up if they are taking money out to pay themselves. better yet lets make them post it in the flyer or online so we know.
The more this happens and TD's get away with it the harder it will be to change it later. WE AS PLAYERS CAN STOP THIS

This arguemant is so last year, welcome to the DG community bro, but you are way behind on beating this very dead horse. Type in the key words in the search engine, you'll see. I bet you consider your time worth something, or do you work for free; most would doubt your willingness to put in hundreds of hours, and then be criticized for it, without any form of compensation. So get over it dude, try running a few before you start condeming those who do. Sorry to come off heavy handed, but believe me, the greater part of the seattle & pdx DG community has moved on, you might want to join us.

[JMan]

And Jub...dude, controversy follows you like crows...and it's a bummer as you really are a nice guy... ah well, something to discuss I guess...

[RonTheWhip]

Ok, well I can see where this thread is going.

How about Jub and Kilmer call eachother and take this conversation off the web.

In terms of volunteering, its not really a contest is it? I've never heard of poeple volunteering just so they can claim they give more to the sport than the next guy. Most folks do it because they believe in the cause. I know both of you two care tremendously about the sport and have strong feelings about its direction. However, your personal dogmas are just that, personal. Mark, Don't feel like you have to force your "volunteer for love, not for money" doctrines on everyone who particpates in the game. And Jub, I really wish that these allegations are untrue, cause in my eyes that indeed is a pretty steep dip into entry fees.

There are other perspectives and oppertunities in this sport. I am a professional in the game, and wish to pursue it as a potential career and help pay the bills. I try to grow the sport because its growth allows me more oppertunities to stay in the game longer.

Hope this issue can be resolved with civil tongues...but come on, who am I kidding.

[Tim]

This thread is a great example of why disc golf isn't going to be hitting it big any time soon.

[sillybizz]

I've got something for this thread....

JOmasp9hr4Q

[snap7times]

TD's deserve to keep something, whether it be cash or prizes for the work they do. I have been to tournaments where it is obvious that the TD put in hundreds of hours of prep work into the tournament as well as tournaments where it looked like the TD thought they could pull off the same job as the hundred hour TD, but in less than 10 hours of prep work, hahahaha is all i can say to those who think they can do it in less than 10 hours of prep work. There is a huge difference in how things flow and quality of the tournament. There are guidelines on the PDGA as Chuck posted for how much a TD can pocket.
I have TD more than 15 tournaments and only kept a prize or 2 from 1 or 2 tournaments while the others were done free; more than half of my tournaments I hosted were more than 3 hours away from where I was living!
And not to mention, I built a flipping dg course which takes alot of time away from my family, but that's the same story as most TD's, they donate so much time, they deserve a little prize at the end sometimes. To anyone who thinks Disc Golf should be 100 percent free, needs to reevaluate how the world works.

[Discgolfingkilmers]

Ok, well I can see where this thread is going.

How about Jub and Kilmer call eachother and take this conversation off the web.

In terms of volunteering, its not really a contest is it? I've never heard of poeple volunteering just so they can claim they give more to the sport than the next guy. Most folks do it because they believe in the cause. I know both of you two care tremendously about the sport and have strong feelings about its direction. However, your personal dogmas are just that, personal. Mark, Don't feel like you have to force your "volunteer for love, not for money" doctrines on everyone who particpates in the game. And Jub, I really wish that these allegations are untrue, cause in my eyes that indeed is a pretty steep dip into entry fees.

There are other perspectives and oppertunities in this sport. I am a professional in the game, and wish to pursue it as a potential career and help pay the bills. I try to grow the sport because its growth allows me more oppertunities to stay in the game longer.

Hope this issue can be resolved with civil tongues...but come on, who am I kidding.

why would i take it off web?
I brought it here for all to see that this is where it is going that as players we need to ask more questions of our TD's. If your a good TD then you don't have to worry, but if your jub you will have to worry. where is all that support now for jub? and jub since you get paid you are not volunteering and my dad can beat up your dad!

[mazza]

my dad can beat up your dad!



now thats the all time bestest burn ever:yay::rockon::yay::rockon:.....jub got daddy burned.



sorry just trying to lighten the mood....so sorry if it wasn't that funny

[JMan]

Jub has said time and time again that his tournements and their finances are conducted in the open, so why don't you just ask him. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to put those figures right here in this tread...jub? And come on, stop trying to stir up an old whorenets nest. We are not impressed or amused by your obvious dislike for Jub, but we are tired of it, from any quarter. Please, take it up with jub, and realize that the majority here believe it OK for a TD to be compensated for their time and effort...for god sakes man catch up or wait for the next bus to the corner of beata and dead horse...really, this is pathetic...

[Discgolfingkilmers]

Jub has said time and time again that his tournements and their finances are conducted in the open, so why don't you just ask him. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to put those figures right here in this tread...jub? And come on, stop trying to stir up an old whorenets nest. We are not impressed or amused by your obvious dislike for Jub, but we are tired of it, from any quarter. Please, take it up with jub, and realize that the majority here believe it OK for a TD to be compensated for their time and effort...for god sakes man catch up or wait for the next bus to the corner of beata and dead horse...really, this is pathetic...

jman your saying its ok for a td to make more than the event winner? I'm sorry i should of call you and got permission to voice my opinion on this disc golf site. There is a reason these TD's don't post this info before an event we would not play if we knew they were taking more money then the winner
as far as pathetic, hope you are not allergic to hornets!
Just because you think its ok does not mean i have to.

[DoubleDees]

before any of you question why marks pissed why dont you go to the CSI forum and read the formula ive posted. It shows that 356% extra money was taken into the TDs pocket than allowed by PDGA standards. If i was stealing a disc out of everyones bag i played with would you let me play tournaments?

[D.L.]

:jumpspin:
:laughing::laughing::laughing::rolleyes2:
:posting::shocked:
:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry::cool2:
:slapface::bowing::rockon:
:trophy:

[sillybizz]

before any of you question why marks pissed why dont you go to the CSI forum and read the formula ive posted. It shows that 356% extra money was taken into the TDs pocket than allowed by PDGA standards. If i was stealing a disc out of everyones bag i played with would you let me play tournaments?

That's a different discussion than most people's rebuttal on this thread. He said he doesn't believe TD's should get paid period, this is what I and most people on this thread disagree with. I don't know anything about Jub taking more money than he was supposed to but that is a different reason why people are upset in this thread.

[Chuck Kennedy]

If it was a PDGA event, his TD report will have to show the finances in regard to this and it should get flagged if it's out of line.

[JMan]

Not saying that, and jub and controversy go together like peas and carrots. I don't play many tourneys at all because I really hate the idea of paying 100 bucks to play a park I can play for free...I don't play DG to rate myself against my fellow golfers so why would I pay to play any tourney that promotes the idea that I am better than you because I shot better on that day...please. But should a TD get $ for their hard work...fuck yes...should it be more than the winner, I don't know, but isn't that between Jub and DF, unless you won then it would concern you. DF didn't look too pissed in the vid I saw. How is it you think TDs should not be compensated for all the work they put in, or is this really just your dislike of jub? Is this dislike new? If it's old then why the hell would you be playing in one of his events...that would be "two, shame on you." You are welcome to think that TDs should do this for free, that old hippy and DG thing, but I'll let you in on an old truth about the game, us old hippies who remember the beginning, and have been playing disc sports years before Steady Ed typing up the rules of this game would never have run a tourney without some type of compensation. Although it warms this old hippies heart to see some of the ideals still alive, it still speaks to a reality that likely will never been realized. Keep the faith my young hippy wanna-be, keep our drug affected dreams alive. But note, we would have done it without all the hate directed at jub...
Peace

[Discgolfingkilmers]

Not saying that, and jub and controversy go together like peas and carrots. I don't play many tourneys at all because I really hate the idea of paying 100 bucks to play a park I can play for free...I don't play DG to rate myself against my fellow golfers so why would I pay to play any tourney that promotes the idea that I am better than you because I shot better on that day...please. But should a TD get $ for their hard work...fuck yes...should it be more than the winner, I don't know, but isn't that between Jub and DF, unless you won then it would concern you. DF didn't look too pissed in the vid I saw. How is it you think TDs should not be compensated for all the work they put in, or is this really just your dislike of jub? Is this dislike new? If it's old then why the hell would you be playing in one of his events...that would be "two, shame on you." You are welcome to think that TDs should do this for free, that old hippy and DG thing, but I'll let you in on an old truth about the game, us old hippies who remember the beginning, and have been playing disc sports years before Steady Ed typing up the rules of this game would never have run a tourney without some type of compensation. Although it warms this old hippies heart to see some of the ideals still alive, it still speaks to a reality that likely will never been realized. Keep the faith my young hippy wanna-be, keep our drug affected dreams alive. But note, we would have done it without all the hate directed at jub...
Peace

this thread is for players that compete so take your non competing ass to another thread hippy

[Discgolfingkilmers]

That's a different discussion than most people's rebuttal on this thread. He said he doesn't believe TD's should get paid period, this is what I and most people on this thread disagree with. I don't know anything about Jub taking more money than he was supposed to but that is a different reason why people are upset in this thread.

no silly just stated the thread that way to get everyone in

[ChUcK]

Potential Sponsor: "You mean you are running this tournament without any compensation except for a few attaboys? You say the players demand that you break even? Gee, sounds like a real financial whizz-bang of an opportunity for my company. Here's a fistful of money for you."

yeah right. :rolleyes2:

I wish there were Tournament Directors who were able to make a comfortable living by doing nothing more than producing tournaments. Then we would be getting somewhere.

[ChUcK]

deleted. I cannot believe I logged in to post on this thread.

[LJ Jubner]

Alright, already It's pretty clear that at least a couple of the Open players panties are in wad. I say How does it feel to be treated like an Am Player same human, but treated like a lower class. Like it? It sure does not sound like it to me.

First of All The Winner is just fine with me taking $8 per player.
Second I though foolishly so that if paid some expenses but did not claim them I take a standard deduction to cover there costs as well as some of my own. My mistake you ungrateful bastards. So just to screw you one last time I am expenseing everything including the only taking the joke $100 for the C tier. and realize that I will and I know you will agree but because of a few players Opens Fields are not worth the headaches. A few ass hats ruined it for all of you. I will publish the finances's page of the CSI Open weekend

For all you bistanders get a good look because (unless you run an event) you will never see this again the TD's don't have the balls to do it.

[Skookum]

before any of you question why marks pissed why dont you go to the CSI forum and read the formula ive posted. It shows that 356% extra money was taken into the TDs pocket than allowed by PDGA standards. If i was stealing a disc out of everyones bag i played with would you let me play tournaments?

Well Standards are not rules(right?) they are more like encouraged guide lines. The PDGA sanctioning agreement does not specify any thing about TD compensation. There for Jub is completly with in his rights to take what ever percentage he deems fair. That being said I would think that any deviations from PDGA Standards in a PDGA event should be front loaded.

Ok I just checked on it and my statement is only true if Jub got a waiver from the PDGA or the event is not a "tour" event(But I think at least all A,B,C tiers are tour events.) Number one item on the sanctioning agreement:

"As the Tournament Director of record, I hereby accept the terms of the PDGA Tour Sanctioning Agreement and agree to the following points listed below.
Agree to follow and enforce the Official Rules of Disc Golf, Competition Manual, and Tour Standards. If any provision of these documents is unacceptable I shall contact the Tour Manager and request a waiver."

I never really noticed that Tour Standards was right at the top. The Tour Standards document seem fairly clear on subject of TD compensation.

I would like, if nothing else positive comes for this dialog, to at least have an understanding of if this was done correctly, or if Jub wanted to be compensate above the standard rate for a "C" tier should it have been done another way? I know a popular production company in Oregon that puts on amazing tournament as a team and take a $500 flat fee from the sponsorship pool that they themselves go out and gather. So they don't touch entrance fees for their compensation. This method feels fair to me and based on what I think I understand from the sanctioning agreement and Tour Standards is allowed.

I know folks are riled up about this and I am truly not trying to fan the flames but I feel like there is some good that can come from this conversation despite the occasional lack of decorum.

[chris7graham]

the odds of getting hit by lightning are 2500000 to 1
the odds of td getting money dont know dont care
am I not going to go outside no more because I could get hit by lightning no
am I not going to play tournaments no more because TD gets money no
dude this is the oldest news every so last year people know that TD's get some money and some dont who cares ,if you dont like dont play!!!! plain and simple

[JMan]

i think your cash odds are better chris if you have me on the card...eh? and play at Hornings...
love ya man,
j

[sillybizz]

this thread is for players that compete so take your non competing ass to another thread hippy

Flagged.

[JMan]

Ouch...oh I compete, but it seems, i can also separate self worth and disc...if thats hippy, well, ouch ;)

[Sam]

*you're
*you're
*you're

[DoubleDees]

my hate is not directed at Jub. it is directed at the lack of following the rules that we are bound to by PDGA rules and tour standards. it doesn't matter who was running the tournament or where i finished my voice would be heard just as loudly.

I do not disagree with a TD being compensated FAIRLY. If legwork had been done and sponsorship money had been accrued then this would not be an issue.

TDs have and will continue to get persecuted for operating outside the rules of the pdga. Just as players have and will continue to be bound by the rules of the pdga.

[Sam]

Hey... at least the winner got more than a Snickers bar...

[LJ Jubner]

Alright, already It's pretty clear that at least a couple of the Open players panties are in wad. I say How does it feel to be treated like an Am Player same human, but treated like a lower class. Like it? It sure does not sound like it to me.

First of All The Winner is just fine with me taking $8 per player.
Second I though foolishly so that if paid some expenses but did not claim them I take a standard deduction to cover there costs as well as some of my own. My mistake you ungrateful bastards. So just to screw you one last time I am expenseing everything including the only taking the joke $100 for the C tier. and realize that I will and I know you will agree but because of a few players Opens Fields are not worth the headaches. A few ass hats ruined it for all of you. I will publish the finances's page of the CSI Open weekend

For all you bistanders get a good look because (unless you run an event) you will never see this again the TD's don't have the balls to do it.



here is the link for the PDGA finances pdf and a copy of the INWS guidlines


All
Tournaments must have a flyer/registration form and TD’s must
forward a copy (digital preferred) to the Series Coordinators
four weeks before the day of your event so that it can be posted to the Web and sent to the other TD’s.
All flyers must state that the tournament is an Inland Nortwest Series event.

All divisions must be honored. Divisions with only 1 or 2 competitors are not eligible to receive trophies unless the TD chooses to provide them.
All events must have a minimum of 36 holes of play. Player
pack value must not exceed 1½ times the cost of the player pack.
Pro divisions must be paid out at a minimum of 40%.
Am divisions must be paid out at a minimum of 45%.
$4 must be deducted from each entry and turned in to the Series
Coordinators for the Series Overall Payout.
$2 may be deducted from each entry as the Host Fee.
$1 may be deducted from each entry as the Trophy Fee.


These guidelines were not created in a rush, actually they have evolved over a five year period and they work quite well.

[Matt B.]

why would i take it off web?


So you can stop braying like a donkey in public?

[Matt B.]

before any of you question why marks pissed why dont you go to the CSI forum and read the formula ive posted. It shows that 356% extra money was taken into the TDs pocket than allowed by PDGA standards. If i was stealing a disc out of everyones bag i played with would you let me play tournaments?

Here is a link to the CSI forum:

http://www.boardratsboard.com/

[sillybizz]

No this is the real CSI Forum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0)

[chris7graham]

i think your cash odds are better chris if you have me on the card...eh? and play at Hornings...
love ya man,
j

Agreed:cheers::trophy:

[CMC206]

I saw a bumper sticker on some disc golfers car at the Auburn Ice Bowl. It was a blue Audi I think and it simply said. ''Vag more. Wank Less.'' I agree with this and the fact that the CSI was a great tourney. I have no complaints. The moral of this post is to calm down, get laid, and throw how ya like. Don't be a wanker!

[vapor]

This thread is a tough read. More commas please. :cop:

[Sausage Fingers]

No this is the real CSI Forum (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0)

Love me some RickRoll!:yay::cheers::cheerleader:

:pirate:

[sillybizz]

LOL! A little pre April Fools for you all. :)

[Mikk]

I saw a bumper sticker on some disc golfers car at the Auburn Ice Bowl. It was a blue Audi I think and it simply said. ''Vag more. Wank Less.'' I agree with this and the fact that the CSI was a great tourney. I have no complaints. The moral of this post is to calm down, get laid, and throw how ya like. Don't be a wanker!

J Moneys Audi I think????

[REDFIVE]

Wow.

Mark you sound like an ass.

Not as much what you say as how you say. But still quite a bit of what you say. Relax.

I think TDs should get something.
I think Jub got too much.
End of the world? Not likely.

Moving on.

[mcbentz]

At CSI, If the entry fee was $500 per player and the TD took $40 out of each pocket would the TD have to work even harder to make everyone feel he "earned" his money? Or, would we still be having this discussion?

[D.L.]

this thread is for http://human-stupidity.com/

yuppers http://human-stupidity.com/

and happy new year to all the fools:cheerleader::cheerleader::cheerleader:

[PuttsRrad]

Check this out -

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/14387/Open

9 OPEN Women - no payout! that year - because JubJub decided to give us all t-shirts and lil trophies. Melody King apologized to Tuffi and gave her $20.00
:shooting:

[LJ Jubner]

Check this out -

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/14387/Open

9 OPEN Women - no payout! that year - because JubJub decided to *give us all t-shirts and lil trophies. Melody King apologized to Tuffi and gave her $20.00
:shooting:

Thanks Tuffi, Hope you enjoy that little $50 trophy. You forgot the Toby visors,first aide kit and the custom embroidered oversized micro fiber towel

The reason why there was 9 ladies is because the low entry fee $25encouraged players like Sara to step up.

* gave us dead giveaway Tuffi, You know your very high maintenance without (thankfully) the happy ending

[Sam]

:slapface:

[olydiscgolf]

Well Standards are not rules(right?) they are more like encouraged guide lines. The PDGA sanctioning agreement does not specify any thing about TD compensation. There for Jub is completly with in his rights to take what ever percentage he deems fair. That being said I would think that any deviations from PDGA Standards in a PDGA event should be front loaded.

OK I just checked on it and my statement is only true if Jub got a waiver from the PDGA or the event is not a "tour" event(But I think at least all A,B,C tiers are tour events.) Number one item on the sanctioning agreement:

"As the Tournament Director of record, I hereby accept the terms of the PDGA Tour Sanctioning Agreement and agree to the following points listed below.
Agree to follow and enforce the Official Rules of Disc Golf, Competition Manual, and Tour Standards. If any provision of these documents is unacceptable I shall contact the Tour Manager and request a waiver."

I never really noticed that Tour Standards was right at the top. The Tour Standards document seem fairly clear on subject of TD compensation.

I would like, if nothing else positive comes for this dialog, to at least have an understanding of if this was done correctly, or if Jub wanted to be compensate above the standard rate for a "C" tier should it have been done another way? I know a popular production company in Oregon that puts on amazing tournament as a team and take a $500 flat fee from the sponsorship pool that they themselves go out and gather. So they don't touch entrance fees for their compensation. This method feels fair to me and based on what I think I understand from the sanctioning agreement and Tour Standards is allowed.

I know folks are riled up about this and I am truly not trying to fan the flames but I feel like there is some good that can come from this conversation despite the occasional lack of decorum.



It's been great watching this "car crash" of a thread develop, but as a long time uncompensated TD, I too would like to see something good come of it. Maybe it's too far gone, but....

It seems like the common consensus is that its OK for TD's to get paid, the question is how much? Should they get a % of entry fee's? Or a dollar amount concurrent with event tier? What about weeklies? Should a TD's compensation only come from sponsorship money brought in?

I don't think there is a cut and dried formula, I think it's going to take a lot of trial and error by TD's. A TD is going to have to establish themselves as a quality TD, and their events need to be established as well run events before players are going to be comfortable "paying to play", rather than "paying to get paid".

I can think of one particular "halloween" event that has established itself as such.

The more people who can make a living in our sport, the better off I see us!

[PuttsRrad]

This isn't Tuffi Jub - this is Tuffi's friend. okay? I keep telling you that -----

One of the reasons that link from 2009 was posted was to ask you now - how MUCH did you make that tournament? Now that we know you are making money at it? hmmmmm?

[emmarose]

Check this out -

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/14387/Open

9 OPEN Women - no payout! that year - because JubJub decided to give us all t-shirts and lil trophies. Melody King apologized to Tuffi and gave her $20.00
:shooting:

dude. oh, i should keep my mouth shut... oh, i just can't!

that's deplorable!

way to get more women involved. way to validate them as legitimate pros.

eek. sorry. but, seriously...

[Yoduh]

jub got paid more than the pro that won ! so far i am the only one that thinks that's not ok . I would rather stand up and call BS then allow it to continue! 20 $ a head was taken out and 8 $ went in his pocket per person. Now tell me i am wrong! that is more then is allowed by PDGA standards. Are we not following those rules? I am a member and as a member i can put a stop to this.And yes i will not be playing any jub events in the future i have no need to pay someone to put on a shitty event. PDGA allows TD's to be paid ,I don't like it, but this is something else

It's not called a Jub scam for no reason Mark.. Are you newbie here? That's why I won't EVER attend a Jub scam. It was an inland series event and about 4 players that usually play the series went to it for a reason. Not worth the drive.. It's also not a Washington series event for a reason.. Don't be surprised when the Scammer Scams, just don't let him do it again and make sure you let everybody else know.. Would love to see Jub take his hat all the way out of the TD ring. Makes other TD and events look bad. If that was your first event I would totally understand why you never played again.

If 9 women showed up because of the low entry fee why didn't they not come back. You made that a joke.. If you would announce things like that ahead of time less than half would have showed up. If you would have just ran it the right way you could have 12 women there the next year. Your message was Pro Women's golf isn't serious. At least that's what I heard from the ladies.

He told me last year I could sign up to play if I gave him $500 to be a title sponsor after he let other people in the tournament before me.

A TD should make some money off running an event. I have ran 2 successful pdga events and took $50 from each 1.. Which really just covered my costs. I would not balk at a TD taking $200 off a large event. Looking at his payout makes me laugh though. I heard Dave was not happy. Cannot blame him. It would have sucked to go over there and shoot 1000 rated golf for the weekend in a huge field and taken just over my entry back. I would quit Jub cause if you run it again they are not going to come.. that would look really bad.

Last time I got into it with Jub over his crap I got a bunch of emails from people that agreed with me but don't want to inspire more ugliness on disc golf forums.. That's all I have to say

[Sam]

This isn't Tuffi Jub - this is Tuffi's friend. okay? I keep telling you that -----

Interesting. Thank you for letting us know that you have not complied with our forum rules by putting your real name on your account.

Sad that people are too cowardly to not stand by their words by putting their name on them.

[snap7times]

Dave made $350 at a C tier hosted by Jub and Nate Doss made $805 at an A tier in Texas the same weekend. If anyone should be complaining, it's the people who went to that A tier...

[REDFIVE]

Dave made $350 at a C tier hosted by Jub and Nate Doss made $805 at an A tier in Texas the same weekend. If anyone should be complaining, it's the people who went to that A tier...

This A tier had 34 open players. The C had 38 open players.

I would rather have played the A tier with less people and more cash than the C with more people and less cash.

[Skookum]

This A tier had 34 open players. The C had 38 open players.

I would rather have played the A tier with less people and more cash than the C with more people and less cash.

Yea think of all those A tier points... somebody remind me again what the points are for? Are not the increase of points awarded one of the primary reasons for TDs to pay more for a higher sanctioning level. Are the points used for enough things to validate throwing anything other than "C" tier events?

[Sam]

* gave us dead giveaway Tuffi, You know your very high maintenance without (thankfully) the happy ending

How did I miss this little gem? Jub, I imagine you will be hearing from the moderator team for being such a class act...

[LegoRules]

Check this out -

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/14387/Open

9 OPEN Women - no payout! that year - because JubJub decided to give us all t-shirts and lil trophies. Melody King apologized to Tuffi and gave her $20.00
:shooting:

That is just not right. :nono: If a women is pro they should be paying the same entry fee as the men, and get the same payout. The other ladies should play advancd if they don't want to step up. :slapface:

[mine all mine]

A TD who feels that they need to make money to run a tournament is in the wrong sport. I have no problem with a TD who takes compensation for expenses, travel, set up and tear down. I do not believe that course maintenance, unless things need to be purchased which is covered under expenses, should be included in compensation. I don't know why, but course maintenance is just one of those things that I don't feel people should be compensated with money for.

[Bryon_Harris]

Shouldn't running tourneys be like playing music, or playing disc, or other kinds of art or passion inspired activities? You do it because you love it and care about it. If you have the skill set, and you handle your business and reputation carefully, then you have the potential to be compensated for what you do well. If not....

[snap7times]

This A tier had 34 open players. The C had 38 open players.

I would rather have played the A tier with less people and more cash than the C with more people and less cash.

An A tier implies higher standards and payout especially with minimum $1500 added cash. The entry fee was probably double for the A tier. The week before, 4th place at an A tier in Sacramento got $800.
Jub's tournament was a C tier, which implies a lot more less expectations and more flexibility than a B tier or an A tier, which would have cost alot of money to travel to, since that is the point of an A tier, to attract touring players. Just farting another perspective in this silly conversation...

[the flogging putter]

I understand if a TD wants to be compensated for there time and money spent on running a event or series. I think it is wrong to take money out of entry's for that compensation. There are many other ways a TD can make money on a tournament:chinscratch::whistler:. I TD for free but would gladly be paid in beer or less dump questions(beer for sure).

[The Brodys]

Shouldn't running tourneys be like playing music, or playing disc, or other kinds of art or passion inspired activities? You do it because you love it and care about it. If you have the skill set, and you handle your business and reputation carefully, then you have the potential to be compensated for what you do well. If not....


:yay:
Well stated!

[DoubleDees]

At CSI, If the entry fee was $500 per player and the TD took $40 out of each pocket would the TD have to work even harder to make everyone feel he "earned" his money? Or, would we still be having this discussion?

The math ive provided shows 500$ entries the % taken would be about 90$ going into his pocket for each entry. So to answer the question... 40$ would be more reasonable. At 60x40=2400$ 60x90=5600... Are people starting to understand?

[Altophish]

Shouldn't running tourneys be like playing music, or playing disc, or other kinds of art or passion inspired activities? You do it because you love it and care about it. If you have the skill set, and you handle your business and reputation carefully, then you have the potential to be compensated for what you do well. If not....

LOL!!!!! Yeah, because who ever heard of a musician or an artist saying how much they would love to make a living doing what they love to do?

[The Brodys]

That why he said this:

If you have the skill set, and you handle your business and reputation carefully, then you have the potential to be compensated for what you do well.

How many musicians out of all them make anything? Not many.

[runnaman]

Musicians make money and so do the people hosting the gigs.

[The Brodys]

I know a lot of musicians and the majority of them do not make money and don't care if they do. Are you saying all musicians you know make money? I really can't believe that you folks can't see the comparison here.

[runnaman]

I don't see why we're always trying to compare disc golf to other sports or activities, but here we go:

Amateur Musicians:
Don't make money, or not a lot

Amateur Disc Golfers:
Don't make money, or only get scrip

Professional Musicians:
Make money

Professional Disc Golfers:
Make money (not going to focus on how much)

People who host music venues:
Make money

People who host disc golf tournaments:
Should make money

[The Brodys]

I'm not sure you saw Byron's point in the comparison, nor do I think you will. You are comparing am golfers to am musicians, you should be comparing am TDs to am musicians.

[The Brodys]

People who host disc golf tournaments:
Should make money

Why. Can't we do things out of pure enjoyment?

[runnaman]

I'm not sure you saw Byron's point in the comparison, nor do I think you will. You are comparing am golfers to am musicians, you should be comparing am TDs to am musicians.

Ok, so there are AM TDs and Pro TDs. I didn't know that.

I do understand that people should do something because they love doing it. But I also know that running a tournament is a lot harder than playing a song on the guitar (yes, I play the guitar). With the amount of work that goes into running a tournament, if there isn't some sort of compensation, TDs get burnt out. And yes, I have run tournaments, so I know.

[The Brodys]

So are you saying all TDs are created equal? Or are you really not getting what I was saying? I know how much work goes into running tournaments as well and I have never felt that I need compensated and still don't. I do not do it for a job, I do it for a hobby and I love it. Running a tournament maybe harder for you then playing a guitar, but I find it easier. Maybe you could make more money being a musician and leave TDing to folks who are tone deaf like me.

[The Brodys]

Oh yeah
:seeya:

[runnaman]

We could go back and forth on this all day; as evidence by this thread and the other threads about the same topic. So I will leave by saying that while some people may run tournaments because they enjoy it and I certainly do too, but being able to make a little money from it is nice as well.

To each their own.

[The Brodys]

Who said being able to make money is not nice? I just said not all musicians make money. But indeed to each their own.

[Altophish]

My point is that people who are serious about wanting to make a living at something MAKE it happen. The rest sit around talking about how nice it would be.

There's a market out there for a professional Tournament Director to the person who runs it down. To the right person, of course.

[psychodwarf]

WOW ... i have read this whole post and i find a lot of answers to questions IN the posts .. while i have not ran an a,c,or b tier event i have for three years ran the night glo golf at downriver and i have ended up NOT making anything YET some ppl STILL think i am making a lot off an $8 event fee. AND yes i do go to work parties and i am a member of my club. i do believe that a TD should make a few bucks running an event cause afterwards WE need that money to pay for the MENTAL HEALTH help we NEED TO HAVE after dealing with ALL the players AND thier problems for that day . i am not trying to be mean but for a group of ppl you are ALL worse then a bunch of 2 year olds .. STILL NOT TRYING TO BE MEAN ..for those of you who have NOT ran a tourny YES its STESSFULL but fun in the end THAT IS WHY I DO WHAT I DO FOR THE FUN OF IT ..

[DGOD! Disc Golf]

http://www.nelsondiscgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/basket.jpg

[D.L.]

how about a whores vs. sluts thread to hash out the relative merits of doing fun things for fun or doing profitable things for profit? as the Ferengi might say - 'You let your women wear clothes?'

The Whore of SeaTac just doesn't have the same ring to it as The Whore of Babylon tho'...

nice work if you can get it, and you can get it if you try. :cheers:

[Mikk]

WOW ... i have read this whole post and i find a lot of answers to questions IN the posts .. while i have not ran an a,c,or b tier event i have for three years ran the night glo golf at downriver and i have ended up NOT making anything YET some ppl STILL think i am making a lot off an $8 event fee. AND yes i do go to work parties and i am a member of my club. i do believe that a TD should make a few bucks running an event cause afterwards WE need that money to pay for the MENTAL HEALTH help we NEED TO HAVE after dealing with ALL the players AND thier problems for that day . i am not trying to be mean but for a group of ppl you are ALL worse then a bunch of 2 year olds .. STILL NOT TRYING TO BE MEAN ..for those of you who have NOT ran a tourny YES its STESSFULL but fun in the end THAT IS WHY I DO WHAT I DO FOR THE FUN OF IT ..

Now thats what I'm talking about!! FOR THE FUN OF IT ALL!! Does more $ = more fun?? Mabe? Or does more $ = more $ for the winners/whinners pocket??
Me personaly I sign up for tournaments for 2 reasons: 1- I get to mabe meet/talk/disc with the Pros of disc golf. 2- I might win my division/get that tourney ace/get a players pack.
If the TD's getting some pay I WOULD hope that I could atleast get a players pack for my division: MA1. Does this happen? not all the time. Am I bothered about it?? NO! I know what it takes. I have been TD and delt with all the issues that come with the job, I do so FREELY. Should TD's get paid from an event? YES if they choose to, however TRANSPARENCY is key here. Make that information available. IF YOU then dont like it, then go play elsewhere..

[purediscgolf]

I feel this subject is like the Olympic Torch. It never goes out.... Just gets put away for a while and forgotten. Then it's hastily re-kindled when someone feels slighted.....

While running the Willamette Valley Winter Series this year we took $5 from each entry; $3 went to cover Series expenses and build the Series Payout, $2 went to me for my expenses.

Course specific scorecards and course maps were provided at every event. This took lots of copies and many trips to Kinko's.....

Having 7 of the 9 events at temporary courses took lots of prep. Work Parties and Scouting Trips to do the layouts...This took gas and time off of work.

I love Disc Golf and would do it for free if I could. Unfortunately, the world costs money. Entry Fees, Travel Expenses, Food, blah blah blah. We all know the run-down....

I feel players vote with their boots. If they show up. They support you. If not, they've made their choice. I would hope that everyone had a great time this winter. Sometimes things do come up. Let's try to constructively criticize our TD's so we can do it better next time. Just spouting out every negative we can find and personally attacking each other doesn't seem to work very well.....

Andrew Rich
Pure Disc Golf .Com
541-337-2942

[Jonny Roc]

I feel this subject is like the Olympic Torch. It never goes out.... Just gets put away for a while and forgotten. Then it's hastily re-kindled when someone feels slighted.....

While running the Willamette Valley Winter Series this year we took $5 from each entry; $3 went to cover Series expenses and build the Series Payout, $2 went to me for my expenses.

Course specific scorecards and course maps were provided at every event. This took lots of copies and many trips to Kinko's.....

Having 7 of the 9 events at temporary courses took lots of prep. Work Parties and Scouting Trips to do the layouts...This took gas and time off of work.

I love Disc Golf and would do it for free if I could. Unfortunately, the world costs money. Entry Fees, Travel Expenses, Food, blah blah blah. We all know the run-down....

I feel players vote with their boots. If they show up. They support you. If not, they've made their choice. I would hope that everyone had a great time this winter. Sometimes things do come up. Let's try to constructively criticize our TD's so we can do it better next time. Just spouting out every negative we can find and personally attacking each other doesn't seem to work very well.....

Andrew Rich
Pure Disc Golf .Com
541-337-2942

:cheers: And an Awesome Job you did young man.. The boots are the indicator and I look forward to next winter when my boots can make it to more...

[Adam Schneider]

I don't give a rat's ass about this topic and have only had to visit because I'm a moderator and several posts have been reported, but doesn't this quote from Andrew kind of sum it up?

I feel players vote with their boots. If they show up. They support you. If not, they've made their choice.
It's capitalism, pure and simple (no positive or negative bias intended): someone holds a tournament and keeps some of the money. If people don't like the monetary distribution, they won't come to the next tournament held by that person. Simple as that. Sheesh.

[LJ Jubner]

Good points Andrew

Love of the game. When anyone spends time doing something for others it's only because they want too. Love is making things better for everyone that lasts more then one day

Mikk; Transparency is key .That's where I failed! I listed some deductions on my flyer but those changed and I alone neglected to address them. I knew long before that I would be taking a cut from the open weekend and should have voiced it (like everything else) loudly!

I compounded the problem by not using terms/values DG know and accept. Instead of the word "cut" or Yoduh's (Scam) I should have just listed every deduction as well as the per player fee I intended to charge. Each of which was a conscience decision I made along the way. Judge me on those choices and their value and what you received not on how you felt.

I'd like to beleive that by posting the financial page of the tournament paperwork clears up any controversy.
and
That I set a precedent that all TD's make this page of their paperwork publicly available


Will I do it differently next time? Certainly. but will be for free? No.

One thing is for sure

Now when everyone of you looks at payouts you will pay more attention. If you see something you don't like say it then.


jub


note: I am probably getting banned for the comments I made to Putts/Tuffi.

I want to apologize for them. They were uncalled for and should have been kept private as my own personal opinion

[NoLoPutts]

Can't even believe there is a discussion about this??? It seems pretty straight forward. In any other aspect a tournament director, on the professional level makes money. The better job they do the more people want to go= more work, time,stress. So compensate the TD. WTF

[SPIDER-DAN]

Its seems that the issue was not so much the td made some money for compensation, but how much was actually made.

I will play in a tournament because i like the course and the other players i know i will get to play and interact with. Who is running it has no effect whatsoever unless they tell me i cant for whatever reason.

Maybe we should concentrate our efforts on a set % a td is entitled to so it would be common knowledge no matter what tournament anyone participates in.

The only concern to avoid would be having an individual direct a tournament for the sole purpose to make money or would that still be acceptable.

Just some thoughts to ponder..........i think we can now get beyond the critism (which was a legitimate concern that anyone should have to right post with out the harsh and unnessary backlash) and post some solutions.

[NoLoPutts]

What would be so wrong with being a Pro TD?? It's a job! If you like it and your good at it. Go make some $$$ this is America. Or do you want some one els to do all the work for you so you can play a tourney , have fun, talk to your chums and expect the person responsible for making everything run smoothly do it for a pat on the back??? Come on!!

[purediscgolf]

I think when we start talking about "solutions" the debate could go on and on.....:headbang:

Well if it's a percentage. Who makes up that figure? What if the turnout isn't to be as expected. Should the Percentage have a sliding scale depending on attendance?:rolleyes2:

I would suggest flat fees depending on the size and intentions of the event. Something that everyone can agree upon. i.e. $2/player for small events up to $10 for Majors etc ..... This way, if 100 people show up and your work load therefore goes up you get compensated. I feel it's the same principal as the percentage with less confusion.:yay:

If Jeff Mittl (just for example, Jeff's an awesome TD!) stated that he felt $10-$15 per head was needed to put on a stellar Beaver State Fling who are we to judge. We don't know what it actually takes if we're not in the loop. If it didn't work to our satisfaction we have the right to voice our opinions. AS LONG AS we don't personally attack people...:nono:

If someone is slighting the Disc Golf community for their own selfish personal gains it spreads like wildfire. They will get theirs in the end without us smearing the efforts of all the other hard-working TD's.:bricks:

I know, as it's been said before, that running tournaments is a lot more work than one would expect. What about the National Tours and Majors? Should those TD's rely on their large entry fees and Am Scrip Payouts for any profits? :confused:

Any tournament that simply breaks even and has nothing to show for it after all is said and done is back to square one. By square one I mean that we are back to where we started (gathering new sponsors, inventory, infrastructure etc etc). A lot of commitment and foresight is needed to take Disc Golf into the future.....:trophy:

If we are to develop and foster events into greatness don't you think we should start by supporting the individuals actually making it happen?:dancing:

I know most people may not read these long winded posts but I can't just reply to this one with one liners. Cheers. :cheers:

Andrew Rich
Pure Disc Golf .Com
541-337-2942

[Chuck Kennedy]

Our typical disc golf tournament financial structure has been trapping us into being forced to run our own events instead of Park Depts like they do for several other sports. Show any Park Director or Rec Supervisor how the finances work for any level of event and they'll laugh in your face wondering who would do that work for what they receive. If we had the proper financial setup and player expectations to go with it, we wouldn't have to be running events much any more except special types of formats. The Park people would have these events in their budget and annual plans. The spinoff would likey be more money going toward maintaining and improving the courses. The more we are part of their regular budget and rec programs, the safer it will be for keeping the courses in the ground in the event issues come up down the road.

[jshrack]

I read Jub's "CSI Finances"... It states that the TD fee was $100, perfectly reasonable.

If Jub received more than this, it is a clear mis-representation of his numbers to the PDGA.
I also wonder why there are AM numbers mixed into the PRO weekend?
And why the AM numbers say $50 was collected and $78 payed out for AM prizes... just more to wonder about.

My question though: how did JUB get $420 if there was only a profit of $32 and a TD fee of $100? (The numbers don't seem to add up.)
I guess I always figured (maybe naively) the TD could only self-compensate from the TD fee and Profit.
Was this $420 collected out of the "Total Pro Payout?" If so, was it in addition to the maintenance, fuel, TD fees, and profit???

This explanation could easily be seen as an accounting trick to manipulate the numbers and grift the event participants while pulling the wool over the eyes of the PDGA.

If this is not the case, please explain...

[LJ Jubner]

I read Jub's "CSI Finances"... It states that the TD fee was $100, perfectly reasonable.

If Jub received more than this, it is a clear mis-representation of his numbers to the PDGA.
I also wonder why there are AM numbers mixed into the PRO weekend?
And why the AM numbers say $50 was collected and $78 payed out for AM prizes... just more to wonder about.

My question though: how did JUB get $420 if there was only a profit of $32 and a TD fee of $100? (The numbers don't seem to add up.)
I guess I always figured (maybe naively) the TD could only self-compensate from the TD fee and Profit.
Was this $420 collected out of the "Total Pro Payout?" If so, was it in addition to the maintenance, fuel, TD fees, and profit???

This explanation could easily be seen as an accounting trick to manipulate the numbers and grift the event participants while pulling the wool over the eyes of the PDGA.

If this is not the case, please explain...

The Am fees are pretty simple I had one Age protected Lady get the pp and some payout two of the three Am's who stepped up to play open cashed declined and took scrip.

The $420 was before all the expenses had been listed. when the smoke cleared the numbers are what I submitted both here and nationally

[Parks]

* gave us dead giveaway Tuffi, You know your very high maintenance without (thankfully) the happy ending

What's the deal with the handy J references and Tuffi?

This is like the 2nd or 3rd I've seen (something else about "hand me downs"), although they may have all been from Jub.

I guess there's an inside joke here.

[PuttsRrad]

It's called harrassment Parks.

[Scott]

note: I am probably getting banned for the comments I made to Putts/Tuffi.



You will not be banned for the comments you made to Putts/Tuffi.

You will be given a warning for those comments.

You will be suspended for an accumulation of warnings, not for a single comment. There is a difference.

[General Scales]

As for TD's getting compensated. I'm all for it so long as it's either up front or your really good at hiding it. Either way, I'll play a tournament

[sillybizz]

What's the deal with the handy J references and Tuffi?

This is like the 2nd or 3rd I've seen (something else about "hand me downs"), although they may have all been from Jub.

I guess there's an inside joke here.

You mean what he said to me here:

I am just curious what other "hand me downs" you got from Tuffi?

No inside joke, he's just being mean.

[Parks]

Well, I had a post nuked (by Adam Schneider? He edited General Scales' quote of my post) from this thread. There was just some self-deprecating humor in there.

Considering all the outright personal attacks and anger in this thread I thought it was pretty tame.

I guess we shouldn't lighten up, and get back to stringing up Jub for making less than minimum wage on his hours spent organizing a tournament.

[Scott]

Well, I had a post nuked (by Adam Schneider? He edited General Scales' quote of my post) from this thread. There was just some self-deprecating humor in there.

Considering all the outright personal attacks and anger in this thread I thought it was pretty tame.

I guess we shouldn't lighten up, and get back to stringing up Jub for making less than minimum wage on his hours spent organizing a tournament.

That post was flagged by four different users as being offensive.

[Tim]

My lady friend saw it and thought it was humorous, though she prefers the term "old fashioned" for the act. Maybe that's less offensive? I guess we can chalk it up as different strokes for different folks.

[General Scales]

My lady friend saw it and thought it was humorous, though she prefers the term "old fashioned" for the act. Maybe that's less offensive? I guess we can chalk it up as different strokes for different folks.

:laughing:

[Sam]

Personally, I wanted to find a rules' violation in that classless post and bring the hammer down. I grow tired of our trolls who post things for shock rather than contributing actual content.

[Parks]

Damnit! I forgot "old fashioned." How could I? I love that term.

Adam: Next time don't be afraid to drop me a pm when you delete one of my posts, and we can keep this explanation crap out of the thread proper.

Contribution time: If a TD wants to donate their time and money to a tourney for the sake of disc golf and their own personal enjoyment, then that's fantastic, and just plain charity.

If they want to recoup their expenses, then not a single person should be able to say a bad thing about that, whatever their ideology. You shouldn't lose money on a well run tournament, and they can be expensive to run.

However, if they want to actually be compensated some for their efforts, then that's their choice and as someone else said, players can vote with their entry fees. There are two very good measures for how well run a tournament is: the number of players entering and the amount of sponsorship money that the TD and their staff brings in. So if a TD wants to take a cut of entry fees, a percentage of sponsorship cash, or both, then they can certainly do so. They just need to be up front and transparent about it and realize that it may turn some players away.

[Sam]

Afraid... :laughing:

Really, Parks... if you enjoy posting here... you might want to think about finding ways to NOT piss the moderators off.

[Parks]

There may be a communication disconnect somewhere.

Was there something in that last post that would piss moderators off?

Should I have said "don't hesitate" instead of "don't be afraid?" They're both analogous terms in this context.

[Sam]

I was more talking about the initial post that made four independent people post complaints about it. Four people who have no real connection to you - they just read your post and were offended. Making the Moderator's jobs harder is what will piss those of them off who are not already there with you.

[Sausage Fingers]

Contribution time: If a TD wants to donate their time and money to a tourney for the sake of disc golf and their own personal enjoyment, then that's fantastic, and just plain charity.

If they want to recoup their expenses, then not a single person should be able to say a bad thing about that, whatever their ideology. You shouldn't lose money on a well run tournament, and they can be expensive to run.

However, if they want to actually be compensated some for their efforts, then that's their choice and as someone else said, players can vote with their entry fees. There are two very good measures for how well run a tournament is: the number of players entering and the amount of sponsorship money that the TD and their staff brings in. So if a TD wants to take a cut of entry fees, a percentage of sponsorship cash, or both, then they can certainly do so. They just need to be up front and transparent about it and realize that it may turn some players away.

Wow, an actual contribution to the discussion from Parks...nice job!:yay::cheers:

Personally I think that his whole thread is pretty damn funny. Listen to the Pros whine! TDs have been taking money from the AM payouts for years, it's nice to see the shoe fit the other foot for a change...:nahnah:

:pirate:

[Parks]

I was more talking about the initial post that made four independent people post complaints about it. Four people who have no real connection to you - they just read your post and were offended. Making the Moderator's jobs harder is what will piss those of them off who are not already there with you.

So out of the hundreds of people that read this board at least four of them are overly sensitive. This is not really surprising. If that post were a movie, it would've been rated PG-13.

[Parks]

Wow, an actual contribution to the discussion from Parks...nice job!:yay::cheers:

When I'm posting in the general and equipment forums, I at least try to stay related to the topic or at least reply to someone who is on topic :D

Its only in those "other" forums that I feel about zero need to contribute.

[Scott]

Is anyone really disputing whether or not TDs can/should take anything off the top to cover expenses? It's when the TDs take is not disclosed ahead of time (pre-registration) and perceived to be excessive and that people get excited.

[Sausage Fingers]

When I'm posting in the general and equipment forums, I at least try to stay related to the topic or at least reply to someone who is on topic :D

Its only in those "other" forums that I feel about zero need to contribute.

But not the Disc Golf Topics threads...interesting way of looking at the forum.:chinscratch:

I must just see your other posts all the time then. I'll have to visit those threads more often it seems.

:pirate:

[Parks]

Is anyone really disputing whether or not TDs can/should take anything off the top to cover expenses? It's when the TDs take is not disclosed ahead of time (pre-registration) and perceived to be excessive and that people get excited.

No one was disputing that, but I just figured there were essentially three levels of running a tournament.

1) As a charity for disc golf where you're donating both time and money.

2) For the love of the game or whatever and donating only time.

3) For profit or where you are at least compensated for your time.

But not the Disc Golf Topics threads...interesting way of looking at the forum.

I must just see your other posts all the time then. I'll have to visit those threads more often it seems.

I meant the Disc Golf Topics forums. But I basically only post in this one and the Equipment one.

[Discgolfingkilmers]

Its funny to me that players just lay down and roll over for TD's. They are so afraid to run an event that they let crappy TD's take there money and don't even question where the money goes. I don't think we should be paying TD's and that's why i bring up this issue. When they take advantage of it we need to bring it out in the open and talk about it. If you don't want to talk about it then don't chime in. This is a problem we have had for years and years. The biggest problem is that jub did not even donate any money to a heart foundation, his pocket was more important then the reason he ran the event for. My issue is that he took to much money not that he got paid.

[Parks]

Its funny to me that you just lay down and roll over and do nothing about it. Actually, you just made a forum post about it, which is adjacent to nothing.

You seem passionate about this. Why don't you actually run your own tournament and lead by example?

The biggest problem is that jub did not even donate any money to a heart foundation, his pocket was more important then the reason he ran the event for.

I don't know anything about CSI or any "heart foundation," but if this was supposed to be some sort of charity fundraiser then you just touched on your first legitimate argument for not taking the $132 or whatever Jub may have made from the tournament.

Care to explain a little more for those of us on the outside?

[Adam Schneider]

Adam: Next time don't be afraid to drop me a pm when you delete one of my posts
Next time I'll remember to log in as "NWDGN Moderators" before I delete your post. It wasn't my decision to delete it, it was the moderators collectively. I just pulled the trigger. It was either delete the post or ban you for a month, so stop griping.

[Discgolfingkilmers]

$$$450$$$$ is what he took and dan (cool shoes) died from a heart issue. like i said before if you don't know then stay out of it. have run many events and already on the schedule this year for a b tier and will be TDing for free

[Scott]

$$$450$$$$ is what he took and dan (cool shoes) died from a heart issue. like i said before if you don't know then stay out of it. have run many events and already on the schedule this year for a b tier and will be TDing for free

I was aware that CSI was a memorial for Dan, but was unaware of any intention to donate any proceeds to charity. Was this stated?

[Discgolfingkilmers]

I was aware that CSI was a memorial for Dan, but was unaware of any intention to donate any proceeds to charity. Was this stated?

when it started it was about dan. Now not so much i guess. charity was never stated don't twist words.

[Sam]

So it was about Dan... but there was never any intention of donating the money anywhere...

Am I the only one who is completely lost here?

[Parks]

Next time I'll remember to log in as "NWDGN Moderators" before I delete your post. It wasn't my decision to delete it, it was the moderators collectively. I just pulled the trigger.

I knew it wasn't your decision alone and I didn't dispute the decision.

My response to you was regarding the execution, which was in your hands.

[Parks]

$$$450$$$$ is what he took and dan (cool shoes) died from a heart issue.

The sheet that Jub posted indicated $132 ($100 TD fee and $32 profit).

Where does the $450 come from?

Also, memorial tournaments are generally in memory of someone, and may or may not be events to support a cause with money. Was it ever explicitly stated or even implied that any money was going to support a cause?

[General Scales]

$$$450$$$$ is what he took and dan (cool shoes) died from a heart issue. like i said before if you don't know then stay out of it. have run many events and already on the schedule this year for a b tier and will be TDing for free

What B tier?

[Parks]

What B tier?

http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/66579

[Scott]

when it started it was about dan. Now not so much i guess. charity was never stated don't twist words.

Lay off the offensive, I'm on your side here. I didn't twist your words. You stated "The biggest problem is that jub did not even donate any money to a heart foundation" and I was merely wondering if Jub explicitly stated or implied ahead of time that money from the event would be given to charity.

Taking money collected at a tournament for charity is pretty low and I was trying to determine if that is what happened here.

[TREX]

$450.00 WOW... I hope he spent many hours and lots of his own cash to earn that payout.

[Sam]

$132 or $450?

And just so people know, Jub is currently unable to respond as he has been suspended for a week, I believe. I am sure that this thread will still be going strong or he will respond to revive it. YAY!

[JMan]

I find most interesting that folks are surprised at all. This topic is all jub (not news), it is really all he has been talking about for...what...years. Really kind of a 'duh' moment.

[HarrisonH]

This thread has officially reached the level of a comedic soap opera. Keep talking, fellas. All we need is a good troll and it'll hit at least 20 pages.

[Bryon_Harris]

At least 1/3 of the thread is folks weighing in on how big a train wreck it is. ;)

[D.L.]

Pupils :eek:clash with police :cop:during Jub Jub :evilgrin: court appearance:bricks: -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvz-sJTLCe4 :slapface:

oh, rong kindof pupils:rolleyes2:

[DexterHawk]

I hate to pull the thread back to subject... but I do want to weigh in on the title subject.

I strongly agree with the sentiment that TDs should get paid (and yes that means more than the winner of Open).

For me it comes down to the question of spending money on what we value. Why should a single player make more money than organizer of the event? What did he or she contribute to anyone else's experience? Sure players put some of their own cash on the line, but even based on minimum wage most TDs have put more of their resources up in the form of time for course prep, fund raising and the actual tournament organization to far out balance the initial investment of any player.

Basically, we as a sport don't get much out of inflating payouts for the top players... sure they push our sport athletically and competitively, but that is putting the cart in front of the horse if you ask me. The real movers and shakers in our sport are the people who work to build our community by running tournaments, building clubs and getting courses in the ground. If we want our sport to grow, these are the people that we should be supporting financially. Pros will keep playing for eachother's money, but it is clear that if our community doesn't do a better job of supporting our TDs we will watch them continue to walk away from our sport in droves (RIP Oregon Series)...

Vote with your feet people. Think about it...

[Scott]

I hate to pull the thread back to subject... but I do want to weigh in on the title subject.

I strongly agree with the sentiment that TDs should get paid (and yes that means more than the winner of Open).

For me it comes down to the question of spending money on what we value. Why should a single player make more money than organizer of the event? What did he or she contribute to anyone else's experience? Sure players put some of their own cash on the line, but even based on minimum wage most TDs have put more of their resources up in the form of time for course prep, fund raising and the actual tournament organization to far out balance the initial investment of any player.

Basically, we as a sport don't get much out of inflating payouts for the top players... sure they push our sport athletically and competitively, but that is putting the cart in front of the horse if you ask me. The real movers and shakers in our sport are the people who work to build our community by running tournaments, building clubs and getting courses in the ground. If we want our sport to grow, these are the people that we should be supporting financially. Pros will keep playing for eachother's money, but it is clear that if our community doesn't do a better job of supporting our TDs we will watch them continue to walk away from our sport in droves (RIP Oregon Series)...

Vote with your feet people. Think about it...

Exellent points and I agree

But I ask: How can we vote with our feet if a TD doesn't disclose what he will be taking up front?

A TD has every right to take as much/little as he deems necessary, but he absolutely should disclose this ahead of time so player have the opportunity to vote with their feet.

[Sean Phillips]

Exellent points and I agree

But I ask: How can we vote with our feet if a TD doesn't disclose what he will be taking up front?

A TD has every right to take as much/little as he deems necessary, but he absolutely should disclose this ahead of time so player have the opportunity to vote with their feet.

Historical performance/data.

[Sean Phillips]

Its funny to me that players just lay down and roll over for TD's. They are so afraid to run an event that they let crappy TD's take there money and don't even question where the money goes. I don't think we should be paying TD's and that's why i bring up this issue. When they take advantage of it we need to bring it out in the open and talk about it. If you don't want to talk about it then don't chime in. This is a problem we have had for years and years. The biggest problem is that jub did not even donate any money to a heart foundation, his pocket was more important then the reason he ran the event for. My issue is that he took to much money not that he got paid.

I'm glad to hear you're running some events. I'll most likely travel up there to attend. I've always liked Washington events.

Actions speak louder than words. Especially internet words. :laughing:

[Scott]

Historical performance/data.

Ah. So we have to get burned first?

[LakeStevensBA]

A TD has every right to take as much/little as he deems necessary, but he absolutely should disclose this ahead of time so player have the opportunity to vote with their feet.

2011 Aquafest Open Disclosure:
The TD will not be paid anything. All the hardworking volunteers will also get paid nothing except for a few (or many) beers for their support. Only money that will taken out will be for tournament related expenses.

There will however be a tip "jar". It is a big red rectangular cooler that would be available to deposit any beverage that you think the TD and supporting staff may enjoy later that night!

entry fees + sponsorship - justifiable expenses = good payouts (but more importantly..good times)

Vote with your feet, but throw with your hips!

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Aw shucks, let me jump in on this debate too. I've really been trying to avoid it because of the apparent sensitivety shown in this thread and like Andrew stated, it can't be done in a 'one liner'.

"Should a TD get paid?"

Pretty simple question, right? And the answer is yes, well no, uh yeah but....... To me it really isn't so cut and dried. Just for the record, I have run events, over seen events, volunteered for events. I try to support disc golf and its players as much as I can. Have I ever been paid? No! Have I ever felt I should be paid? No! Should I ever BE paid? Sure!

First I don't think that any TD, staff member, volunteer, or anybody else giving their time should EVER have to be out of pocket for ANY expenses incurred in planning/running of an event.

I don't feel however that for every event a TD can/should/will be paid for their services. What is your time worth? What price do I put on MY time? If the TD puts in 100 hours of his/her time and I as a staffer put in 50 hours then should I not get paid half of what the TD does? So who gets paid and who doesn't? If we pay the TD a favorable sum and I as a volunteer, prepping the course, doing set-up, standing on the course for 2-3 days spotting, only gets a tee-shirt am I coming back for the next event? Maybe, maybe not! So where does it begin and where does it end?

What's that old saying? "It takes a community"! In my humble opinion, when a club runs an event, most often there are many hands involved. Yes, the TD on record may be tasked with more than others but it doesn't or shouldn't have to be that way. The workload should be spread amongst the members of the club. The community! Your time, my tiime, our time is just as important as the TD. In a club run situation the TD should NOT get paid nor should any other member of the club. Should a profit be made from the event? Heck yeah! The 'club' should be paid not the TD or any other member for their part in putting on the event. "It takes a community"! Should the profit come out of player fees? Only if the event is designed as a low key, no frills, basic event where no additional fundraising is done. Then, it needs to be made clear, upfront that 'x' number of dollars is coming out of player fees to raise money. (entry fee is $55 and $5 is going to the club, as example)

So when should the TD get paid?

When John Q Jones steps up and says, "I'm gonna run a tournament because I think I can run an event that will be great and for my efforts I want to at least make a little profit for myself. I'm not affiliated with a club and doing this on my own." It should be made perfectly clear from the beginning that this is the intent. In this situation the TD needs to announce upfront in their innitial statement, flyer, internet posting, what ever that the event is a "for profit event. Should the profit come from player fees? Maybe! If the TD is upfront, in the beginning announcing that 'x' number of dollars is coming out of your fees to help pay the TD. There are other ways the TD can make this money however. If at all possible the player fees should not be used and be used for payout. If you run an event and sell 18 tee signs for $50 each, you just made yourself $900 (less printing fees). Find yourself a larger sponsor giving them a tee sign, a place to hang a banner, their company logo on your flyers, website, other printed materials, charge them maybe $500-1000 and bang, more profit. Become a vendor and have your own merchandise to use for scrip redemption. (pay $5-8 per disc, scrip redeemed for $10-15 per disc=profit) You need help running the event, like spotters, setup/teardown? Hit up a club and offer them a chance to sell their own merchandise, or offer the club a dollar amount for the time, OR (since you can't run a raffle legally) offer the club the merchandise you get from Innova for ordering tournament discs. I've seen the raffle make between $200-1000 which would be a nice little bonus for the club.

Some day there may be TD's/Event coodinators, that can make their living doing this but we really aren't at that point, at this time. It very well may be coming and when it does, we are gonna see changes in our sport like never before. Whether for good or bad, who knows, but change will come.

For now based on this thread and all of the opinions expressed within, the thing that we can learn is "Disclosure", if you plan to make a profit don't try to hide it but announce it loud and clear and let the players decide whether they want to participate or not.

Ok, done and out!
Bob

[Sean Phillips]

Ah. So we have to get burned first?

I wouldn't call it burnt. It's not like TD's are out there taking 50% or more of our registration money.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Now Ticketmaster, there's a burn job.

[Parks]

Ah. So we have to get burned first?

Kind of the eternal question, n'est-ce pas?

You have to make assumptions based on what you know about the TD, assumptions from conversations you've had with them, and assumptions about whether or not what they put out as their intent is trustworthy.

Someone can seem perfectly transparent up front and still burn you.

[DexterHawk]

Exellent points and I agree

But I ask: How can we vote with our feet if a TD doesn't disclose what he will be taking up front?

A TD has every right to take as much/little as he deems necessary, but he absolutely should disclose this ahead of time so player have the opportunity to vote with their feet.

I don't get a breakdown of costs and fees and profit margins when I buy a cup of coffee at a coffee stand or even something expensive like a TV or a Car... If you are getting what you want, meaning you are satisfied with the event, the prizes ect. why should you care how much the TD makes?

[Scott]

I don't get a breakdown of costs and fees and profit margins when I buy a cup of coffee at a coffee stand or even something expensive like a TV or a Car... If you are getting what you want, meaning you are satisfied with the event, the prizes ect. why should you care how much the TD makes?

But I assume the person selling me a cup of coffee, a TV, or a car is doing so to make a profit. That's not always the case with disc tournaments.

Your second point is a good one - If you are getting what you want, meaning you are satisfied with the event, the prizes ect. why should you care how much the TD makes? I think the players have a right to know so they can make an informed decision before they allocate their time and money to a certain tournament.

[Kenny B]

I strongly agree with the sentiment that TDs should get paid (and yes that means more than the winner of Open).

That's crazy. I don’t think it's acceptable for a TD to get paid more than the winner.


I only started playing tournaments in 2007, but I'll discuss something that hasn't been discussed yet in this thread. It is my understanding that years ago (not sure how many) in certain parts of the country, players used to travel around all excited to play in some cool disc golf tournaments and then find, upon winning cash prizes, that some tournament directors would take large amounts of money from the prize pool to pay themselves (and in some cases pay themselves for not much work other than to show up with $5 worth of blank score cards and sit around all day while players played). To fix this problem, the PDGA began to sanction tournaments and created tiers of tournaments so that players could travel around to tournaments with the assurance that the prize payout would be of a certain size. The higher the tier, the larger the payout.

In my opinion, tournaments with large TD compensation are not sustainable. To me it's just capitalism, someone new will always be there to step up and be a TD who doesn't gouge the payout. If I felt TDs were taking too much, I know I would step up.

And thanks for your post Bob. Very well said.

[DexterHawk]

Some day there may be TD's/Event coodinators, that can make their living doing this but we really aren't at that point, at this time. It very well may be coming and when it does, we are gonna see changes in our sport like never before. Whether for good or bad, who knows, but change will come.

For now based on this thread and all of the opinions expressed within, the thing that we can learn is "Disclosure", if you plan to make a profit don't try to hide it but announce it loud and clear and let the players decide whether they want to participate or not.

Ok, done and out!
Bob

I see this as one of the necessary steps in our sports progression. Our current model (100% or greater payout of entry fees and funds raised) basically doesn't allow any one to make any money in our sport. Even the most elite players are just scratching by and god help any of them if they got hurt or audited...

Disc golf won't shed the title of fringe sport until more people invest in it, via major sponsorship, private courses and bigger better events. But no one is going to invest if they can't expect to get some return on there dollar...

God I sound like a republican...

Basically... If everybody wins nobody wins... hows that?

[jshrack]

The Am fees are pretty simple I had one Age protected Lady get the pp and some payout two of the three Am's who stepped up to play open cashed declined and took scrip.

The $420 was before all the expenses had been listed. when the smoke cleared the numbers are what I submitted both here and nationally

Thx for clarifying. :biggrin2:

[DexterHawk]

That's crazy. I don’t think it's acceptable for a TD to get paid more than the winner.


I only started playing tournaments in 2007, but I'll discuss something that hasn't been discussed yet in this thread. It is my understanding that years ago (not sure how many) in certain parts of the country, players used to travel around all excited to play in some cool disc golf tournaments and then find, upon winning cash prizes, that some tournament directors would take large amounts of money from the prize pool to pay themselves (and in some cases pay themselves for not much work other than to show up with $5 worth of blank score cards and sit around all day while players played). To fix this problem, the PDGA began to sanction tournaments and created tiers of tournaments so that players could travel around to tournaments with the assurance that the prize payout would be of a certain size. The higher the tier, the larger the payout.

In my opinion, tournaments with large TD compensation are not sustainable. To me it's just capitalism, someone new will always be there to step up and be a TD who doesn't gouge the payout. If I felt TDs were taking too much, I know I would step up.

And thanks for your post Bob. Very well said.

Okay, Let me preface my response by saying that I have only been playing tournaments for 6 years so I'm no expert either... But I do play open and I do win sometimes and I still feel that the TD should make more money.

I don't know where these mythological bad guy TDs are but I've never met one. And as for a shangrila where happy discers just cruised the country making a living flinging plastic this too is a myth.

I not so closed minded to think that no TD has ever abused a field. There are some pretty ugly stories out there about TDs walking with club money or basket money or whatever... but I don't understand why disc golfers are so phobic of anyone with a profit motive.

I wanna see some folks make a living on disc golfers. We're a growing community and it's about time that we started taking care of some of our own so they can focus their energies and talents on making our sport grow and get better. I would much rather see us reward TDs this way than a bunch of whiny pros.

TDs are like teachers... everybody who's gone to a tournament thinks they could run one, maybe even better than the guy who is currently running it... Just like everyone went to school so they think they could teach... They don't mind pooing all over the current TDs / teachers because they don't value it enough... But when push comes to shove only a small percentage of folks will step up and do the job because basically it is a difficult, under rewarded gig whose greatest reward is someone elses happiness, a thing we're taught to value very little in our culture.

[HarrisonH]

Okay, Let me preface my response by saying that I have only been playing tournaments for 6 years so I'm no expert either... But I do play open and I do win sometimes and I still feel that the TD should make more money.

I don't know where these mythological bad guy TDs are but I've never met one. And as for a shangrila where happy discers just cruised the country making a living flinging plastic this too is a myth.

I not so closed minded to think that no TD has ever abused a field. There are some pretty ugly stories out there about TDs walking with club money or basket money or whatever... but I don't understand why disc golfers are so phobic of anyone with a profit motive.

I wanna see some folks make a living on disc golfers. We're a growing community and it's about time that we started taking care of some of our own so they can focus their energies and talents on making our sport grow and get better. I would much rather see us reward TDs this way than a bunch of whiny pros.

TDs are like teachers... everybody who's gone to a tournament thinks they could run one, maybe even better than the guy who is currently running it... Just like everyone went to school so they think they could teach... They don't mind pooing all over the current TDs / teachers because they don't value it enough... But when push comes to shove only a small percentage of folks will step up and do the job because basically it is a difficult, under rewarded gig whose greatest reward is someone elses happiness, a thing we're taught to value very little in our culture.

Very well stated. Turns out there CAN be a little sanity in this thread :shocked:

[Jim J]

TDs are like teachers... basically it is a difficult, under rewarded gig

The problem with this whole discussion is that it's based on the assumption that a tournament makes a profit and the TD can take some of this profit.

But what's the true profit when the tourney's income and expense statement doesn't reflect true costs of running the tournament? Specifically I'm talking about the the infusion of capital provided by the volunteers. It's essential to a tourney's success and completely off the books. There'd be no profits to pay a TD without volunteers, which is probably true for the Olympics too.

That being said, I agree with DexterHawk that there's nothing immoral or unethical to compensating TDs, or co-TDs, or teachers for that matter. And anytime the value of the tournament equals or exceeds the entry fees (which is almost all the time at PDGA events), the TDs and clubs who back them should be free to manage all aspects of the tourney, including compensation, as they wish.

[Uhlman]

So it was about Dan... but there was never any intention of donating the money anywhere...

Am I the only one who is completely lost here?
Nope

[Kenny B]

I wanna see some folks make a living on disc golfers.

This already happens for manufacturers. I only feel this is true for TDs that can get major sponsorship and get us to the future of disc golf I think we all want. I want to see Nike sponsor a tornament with $1 million. No TD should be getting a >$50,000/year salary for throwing little tournaments where the winner is only getting $1,000.


We're a growing community and it's about time that we started taking care of some of our own so they can focus their energies and talents on making our sport grow and get better. I would much rather see us reward TDs this way than a bunch of whiny pros.


I agree with this, but to me taking care of TDs does not mean paying them more than the winner of the open division.

And as for a shangrila where happy discers just cruised the country making a living flinging plastic this too is a myth.

I never said anything about discers travelling around the country making a living on disc golf.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The reality is that there's not enough money in entry fees, even considering the retail/wholesale conversion from amateurs, for TDs and their team in the biggest events to get paid even minimum wage for the amount of time they put in to host and run an event. I would propose that we change the terminology from TDs getting "paid" to TDs getting a "fair honorarium" for their services in the same way celebrities get honorariums for showing up to help run charity events where they receive much less than their normal pay.

Where TDs and assistants can actually get "paid" is by keeping a 10% commission on cash sponsorship raised and for sales of merchandise they have purchased for resale whether disc related gear or food.

[DexterHawk]

The reality is that there's not enough money in entry fees, even considering the retail/wholesale conversion from amateurs, for TDs and their team in the biggest events to get paid even minimum wage for the amount of time they put in to host and run an event. I would propose that we change the terminology from TDs getting "paid" to TDs getting a "fair honorarium" for their services in the same way celebrities get honorariums for showing up to help run charity events where they receive much less than their normal pay.

Where TDs and assistants can actually get "paid" is by keeping a 10% commission on cash sponsorship raised and for sales of merchandise they have purchased for resale whether disc related gear or food.

That assumes that we keep the 100% + model for payouts...
I've played a lot of sports in my life, paid entry fees, registration fees, field dues, club memberships... But disc golf is the first sport I've played where a "recreational" player expects to be compensated at basically the same rate as a pro for their play in comparison to their peers.

That said, you're right about entry fees... They should be higher...

Tough to do in a sport where regular participation, despite requiring specialized equipment and access to valuable land is totally free.

[loki]

I was going to suggest it but it looks like Chuck already did above (which makes me think that it's legit), that TD's get compensated by keeping 10-15% of all outside sponsorship (this is absolutely ethical when you consider some "non profit" organizations keep as much as 50% for "expenses, salaries" etc). That would take care of reimbursing them for the pro's and the profit made in scrip takes care of the am's in addition to a fee charged for any vendors. That would also be an incentive for TD's to garner as much outside sponsorship as possible. The more sponsors they rustle up, the more money they make. Everybody benefits! You get a nice balance when growing payouts are commensurate to the growth of the sport. The snowball effect then comes into play as tournaments will become more standardized and more efficiently managed because that is what will be expected.

[Kenny B]

That would also be an incentive for TD's to garner as much outside sponsorship as possible. The more sponsors they rustle up, the more money they make. Everybody benefits!

Exactly! TDs working hard for big sponsorship $ for huge payouts and good compensation for their work.

[mine all mine]

The problem with this whole discussion is that it's based on the assumption that a tournament makes a profit and the TD can take some of this profit.

But what's the true profit when the tourney's income and expense statement doesn't reflect true costs of running the tournament? Specifically I'm talking about the the infusion of capital provided by the volunteers. It's essential to a tourney's success and completely off the books. There'd be no profits to pay a TD without volunteers, which is probably true for the Olympics too.

That being said, I agree with DexterHawk that there's nothing immoral or unethical to compensating TDs, or co-TDs, or teachers for that matter. And anytime the value of the tournament equals or exceeds the entry fees (which is almost all the time at PDGA events), the TDs and clubs who back them should be free to manage all aspects of the tourney, including compensation, as they wish.

If a tournament has no profit margin then why should there be compensation? The Olympics draw such huge numbers of spectators that the local businesses benefit so largely that volunteers have no problem giving of their time because the city or region is going to benefit tremendously (no one benefits, because everyone benefits).

Now, a business who sells a product and doesn't make a profit can't decide to take the product from the person paying for it and give it to themselves. They have to give the product to the person paying for it and pay taxes, overhead, employee wages, and the person they bought the product from. A tournament is kinda like a small business, if your margins don't reflect a profit...then you don't get any!

Profit or compensation can be reflected in the flyer for the tournament. I would associate it to when you go to a store and they add money for you to use your debit card. This is an upfront charge that you can either pay or not based on how bad you want the product you are purchasing. TD's, If you want the compensation let it be known, if you don't then don't take any.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The PDGA guidelines indicate the maximum TD honorarium can only be deducted if the other payout guidelines are met.

[LJ Jubner]

Mark I am glad you (and the PCDGPA) are running something. Not really the same as a "one man show" but it's still a start. Will you agree to post your finances page as I have done? You said you will work for free, prove it!

The biggest joke was from DD's no sponsorship no percentage idea. Did I advertise added cash Only If I reached the 60 player threshold. Did that happen? No.

I asked earlier what priorities I should assign to what things
Is course maintenance more or less important then hunting sponsors?

As a TD it's up to me to decide and I choose to benefit the entire community year round with course maintenance vs the benefit of the Open players on just one weekend. (Who did benefit from the course conditions but I guess it just was not enough). Again NOT ONE Open player ever offered to add cash or to hunt sponsorships for their Open weekend. It's "the little red hen" story if you ask me

Volunteers or conscripts?
When I said I had to pay to get a weed eater fixed did you think it was mine? It belongs to a volunteer that was broken during the lead up to CSI. Did I (CSI) have to fix it? No. But it was the right thing to do. Mix, Line, Paint provided by me as well as 3 tarps. Crap I forgot to take the $50 worth of circle paint. Oh well you guys got me again

Someone mentioned Set up/Take down. Yes I had help setting up but it was all me tearing it down.

In my opinion our two biggest problems are

That players beleive they deserve to be anointed with ONLY the best available even at the events expense and/or off the TD's back and don't have to do anything to recevie it but show up.
From the leftover PP to the last 5 CFR's It's always up to the TD to make ends meet even if it takes all year. Players get paid instantly TD's SPECULATE and hope to just break even.


Budget Pros.
One's who probably should have stayed home and paid there bills instead of gambling it away. "I gotta win cause my cat needs to go to the vet" mentality. How the hell can I cope with that self imposed stress the player has put him/herself under.


Just for chucks and giggles What If I had ...



fish on!

[Sam]

I am sure that this thread will still be going strong or he will respond to revive it. YAY!

I would like to take this brief moment to say...

"SEE! I told ya!" :laughing:

[LJ Jubner]

I saw you in the alley jonseing for a jub fix. i had to hook a bruther up

[snap7times]

so that was why sam was twitching all funny on sunday...

[Discgolfingkilmers]

Mark I am glad you (and the PCDGPA) are running something. Not really the same as a "one man show" but it's still a start. Will you agree to post your finances page as I have done? You said you will work for free, prove it!

The biggest joke was from DD's no sponsorship no percentage idea. Did I advertise added cash Only If I reached the 60 player threshold. Did that happen? No.

I asked earlier what priorities I should assign to what things
Is course maintenance more or less important then hunting sponsors?

As a TD it's up to me to decide and I choose to benefit the entire community year round with course maintenance vs the benefit of the Open players on just one weekend. (Who did benefit from the course conditions but I guess it just was not enough). Again NOT ONE Open player ever offered to add cash or to hunt sponsorships for their Open weekend. It's "the little red hen" story if you ask me

Volunteers or conscripts?
When I said I had to pay to get a weed eater fixed did you think it was mine? It belongs to a volunteer that was broken during the lead up to CSI. Did I (CSI) have to fix it? No. But it was the right thing to do. Mix, Line, Paint provided by me as well as 3 tarps. Crap I forgot to take the $50 worth of circle paint. Oh well you guys got me again

Someone mentioned Set up/Take down. Yes I had help setting up but it was all me tearing it down.

In my opinion our two biggest problems are

That players beleive they deserve to be anointed with ONLY the best available even at the events expense and/or off the TD's back and don't have to do anything to recevie it but show up.
From the leftover PP to the last 5 CFR's It's always up to the TD to make ends meet even if it takes all year. Players get paid instantly TD's SPECULATE and hope to just break even.


Budget Pros.
One's who probably should have stayed home and paid there bills instead of gambling it away. "I gotta win cause my cat needs to go to the vet" mentality. How the hell can I cope with that self imposed stress the player has put him/herself under.


Just for chucks and giggles What If I had ...



fish on!

JUB YOUR A JOKE and we already proved it. deal with it.I guess we will see how many players liked what you did this year, next year.Everything from the RAYMOND SIECK INVITATIONAL will be online after the event because it is a club event and we are a players association. The club may make money but there will not be one cent in my pocket. I have also kept track of all hours i have spent so far working on this event. There are poeple that will do it for free and do a better job then you, at least cheaper then you.

[Sam]

Dare I say it again...

YOU'RE*

And... you get what you pay for, I guess. If you do it for free and Jub does it for a fee, I would expect the quality of his tournament to far exceed yours. Or is it... you'res? :rolleyes2:

[Scott]

Way to correct spelling on the personal attack, Sam. Shouldn't we just warn/suspend him instead?

[TYVEK]

That players beleive they deserve to be anointed with ONLY the best available even at the events expense and/or off the TD's back and don't have to do anything to recevie it but show up.



As a player, I actually do believe that we deserve the best tournament experience that can be offered. i know not every tournament is a huge paying tournament, but even the small ones should use their resources that they have to make it the best for the PLAYERS.
the players SHOULD NOT have to do anything BUT show up to recieve this either. the players paid a entry fee to play. the players are there to play the tournament, not to pitch in with maintenence or set up or take down. im not saying that people shouldnt help out, im just saying that as a paying player, we are not commited to anything other than showing up and playing.

There are alot of very kind and helpfull people out there that like to help out by volunteering and doing work parties, and i appreciate everything that they do/have done/ and are willing to do. The TD should organize volunteers to do these things whether they are players or not, and the TD should not belittle the players when they do not choose to help out. it is on the TDs shoulders to make the course playable and give the players a the best tournament they can, not on the players shoulders.

Jub, i have no ill feelings towards you. this is my opinion on what you wrote down. until we meet again........:kissflowers:

[Parks]

JUB YOUR A JOKE and we already proved it.

As far as I can tell, you didn't prove anything.

You claim that Jub made $450 off the tournament, but the finances sheet shows $132 at most.

Where did you prove that Jub made $450? It seems if Jub is the joke, then "your" the failed punchline.

[DoubleDees]

As far as I can tell, you didn't prove anything.

You claim that Jub made $450 off the tournament, but the finances sheet shows $132 at most.

Where did you prove that Jub made $450? It seems if Jub is the joke, then "your" the failed punchline.

because he said that 464$ went into his pocket? The numbers were manipulated after people started asking questions so that the PDGA wouldnt notice.:shooting::explode:

[Parks]

because he said that 464$ went into his pocket? The numbers were manipulated after people started asking questions so that the PDGA wouldnt notice.:shooting::explode:

He said $420 in the other thread, and that the majority of that was expenses.

[DoubleDees]

He said $420 in the other thread, and that the majority of that was expenses.

"Sure Ed the total deductions out of every entrant was $20
$4 INWS, $3 each to the club and pDGA $2 for the Ace pot and $8 for me. about $420 (12%)"


8x57=456

In another post the total amount is stated as 464$

[sillybizz]

http://www.joknits.com/2008/winter/goodg.jpg

[General Scales]

Okay, how about this. Everyone do everything for free. Period. Then we can crucify those who need money. We will all revert back to commune living.

[LJ Jubner]

because he said that 464$ went into his pocket? The numbers were manipulated after people started asking questions so that the PDGA wouldnt notice.:shooting::explode:

Now your just out to lunch Ed!

The figures don't lie when all was said and done the finances are just what I submitted. Do you want to see the actual receipts. Funny I don't seem to have the extra 300 dollars you say I have.

[DoubleDees]

Now your just out to lunch Ed!

The figures don't lie when all was said and done the finances are just what I submitted. Do you want to see the actual receipts. Funny I don't seem to have the extra 300 dollars you say I have.

perhaps you should have charged the ams for some of it... Oh wait.. you doubled up the expenses and got paid for them twice?

[DoubleDees]

Alright, already It's pretty clear that at least a couple of the Open players panties are in wad. I say How does it feel to be treated like an Am Player same human, but treated like a lower class. Like it? It sure does not sound like it to me.

First of All The Winner is just fine with me taking $8 per player.
Second I though foolishly so that if paid some expenses but did not claim them I take a standard deduction to cover there costs as well as some of my own. My mistake you ungrateful bastards. So just to screw you one last time I am expenseing everything including the only taking the joke $100 for the C tier. and realize that I will and I know you will agree but because of a few players Opens Fields are not worth the headaches. A few ass hats ruined it for all of you. I will publish the finances's page of the CSI Open weekend

For all you bistanders get a good look because (unless you run an event) you will never see this again the TD's don't have the balls to do it.


here you are admitting to maliciously modifying your report.

[LJ Jubner]

Next thing you'll say I should not have split weekends! Which is what this really all about. Kilmer's ax to grind because PCDGPA came late to the 2011 WSS series planning and needed a date and I was hogging March!!!!

perhaps you should have charged the ams for some of it... Oh wait.. you doubled up the expenses and got paid for them twice?

I wish I had thought of that, doubling up on expenses.

This does raise an interesting question at
What point do deductions kill the payout?

It's my contention that in an effort to NOT KILL THE PAYOUT I choose to take some deductions the Open weekend that I did not on the Am's

If you notice I did not take all the deductions allowed too me from the AM weekend. Why because it was
A. my choice
B. I made it up off the scrip. 1/3 mark up. used to sponsor the 3 Am's who stepped up -$195 out of the AM payout(-$65 LOSS for me) and covering sanction/insurance for both weekends $100 each.

Case in point INWS states that
I am entitled to 1.5x cost of the PP. $15+$7.50 = $22.50 cost yes mark up no
I am entitled to a host fee of $2 per person Am No Open Yes
I am entitled to take $1 per person for trophies AM No Open Yes
I can not take sanctioning or insurance. Sponsors or I must pay. Am Yes No Open sponsors so I ate them.
The weed eater crapped the week between.

ace pot that got thrown off both weekends
club fees to help pay for the baskets A new deduction at CSI this year
pDGA,series fees
no CFR's to support fundraising. it not like Opens buy anything anyway

forget about
the offer to bump either CSI weekend up to B If I had 72 Am's or 60 Open
having the course to yourselves
how quickly the rounds went
how the course was "parked out"
the three step ups

Needles to say a couple of instigators will not be INVITED back next year.

[Discgolfingkilmers]

jub have had many players thank me for saying all this and many ams have told me that in there entry fee they paid for a shirt but only the first 30 got them at the am event? why was that? where did that money go? and we don't need to be invited to play if its pdga. have had players come and thank me for stepping up and saying something about you,many players am and pro. so if you think its just me and ed you are wrong.jub its not personal have no ax to grind you just tried to scam us and we caught you.

[Sam]

Way to correct spelling on the personal attack, Sam. Shouldn't we just warn/suspend him instead?

Hey.... we can do both the correcting of the spelling and the warning for the personal attack... right? :)

[General Scales]

Hey.... we can do both the correcting of the spelling and the warning for the personal attack... right? :)

Personal attack? Meh, that is old news:yawn:. Let's suspend people for grammar and punctuation:shocked:. That is the real issue with the internet these days.:shooting:

[Sam]

jub have had many players thank me for saying all this and many ams have told me that in there entry fee they paid for a shirt but only the first 30 got them at the am event? why was that? where did that money go? and we don't need to be invited to play if its pdga. have had players come and thank me for stepping up and saying something about you,many players am and pro. so if you think its just me and ed you are wrong.jub its not personal have no ax to grind you just tried to scam us and we caught you.

http://i.imgur.com/TmlOL.gif

[sillybizz]

Good grief Charlie Brown....

"dude. this is so last week."

[Ol' Bob]

The only reason I click this thread is to make it show up as already read.

[LJ Jubner]

jub have had many players thank me for saying all this and many ams have told me that in there entry fee they paid for a shirt but only the first 30 got them at the am event? why was that?

This is a good one If I ordered 50 shirts had 48 players and have one shirt left.

... and we don't need to be invited to play if its pdga. .

Actually I have already requested to not allow some players at next years event

[Sam]

FYI - A TD can refuse entry to anyone they want - PDGA or not. I am thinking Mr. Kilmers will not be attending next year's CSI - by mutual agreement.

[Sam]

The moral to this story can be wrapped up with one simple picture...

http://i.imgur.com/7fBQQ.jpg

Now, please... let the melon talk and let this friggin' thread die, already...

[sillybizz]

You have the power to lock, Sam. Just saying...

[Sam]

We wouldn't do that under most circumstances as we hope that the general populace will let shit like this die. This is also a pretty important topic even if it has been talked into the ground. And I like posting the funny pictures. :)

[TYVEK]

You have the power to lock, Sam. Just saying...

there is still alot to be discussed about TD's being paid or not, its not all about jub. why would you want to lock the thread. its not "so last week" as you say. the discussion is still important to have and is not even close to being stale old news.

[sillybizz]

We wouldn't do that under most circumstances as we hope that the general populace will let shit like this die. This is also a pretty important topic even if it has been talked into the ground. And I like posting the funny pictures. :)

Me too. Thank goodness someone else in here understands the internetz and how they work.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/internetstooserious.jpg

[KG_MCDGC]

http://media.kickstatic.com/kickapps/images/66470/photos/PHOTO_12954667_66470_8881123_main.jpg

[sillybizz]

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm251/martamy/boxxy-trolling.jpg

[sillybizz]

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt252/ubwatchinme2/ThreadKiller.jpg

[D.L.]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l6f5durl6i1qa2vz7o1_500.jpg

[Sam]

http://i.imgur.com/vruzm.gif

[NWDiscer]

http://i.imgur.com/vruzm.gif



:laughing: :explode: :cop:

[Ol' Bob]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l6f5durl6i1qa2vz7o1_500.jpg

They guy who paints on the doorknobs hasn't gotten to it yet.

[LakeStevensBA]

DAMMIT!

This thread has totally gone sideways! Bring it back to where it belongs! NOW!

So, I was teaching a group of newbies how to play disc golf yesterday and I emphasized to them to make sure they use sharpies when they sign a basket after 3 birdies in a row. Not sure if they heard me though because the Pioneer Powerplay 8-track player I have blasting in my golf bag may have been a little too loud. Freebird!

[General Scales]

DAMMIT!

This thread has totally gone sideways! Bring it back to where it belongs! NOW!

So, I was teaching a group of newbies how to play disc golf yesterday and I emphasized to them to make sure they use sharpies when they sign a basket after 3 birdies in a row. Not sure if they heard me though because the Pioneer Powerplay 8-track player I have blasting in my golf bag may have been a little too loud. Freebird!

Did you also remind them to make sure they let their dogs off the leash while screaming the Dodgers suck while littering? Just making sure cause that is the second lesson I teach any newbie.

[Parks]

"Sure Ed the total deductions out of every entrant was $20
$4 INWS, $3 each to the club and pDGA $2 for the Ace pot and $8 for me. about $420 (12%)"


8x57=456

In another post the total amount is stated as 464$

8x56=448. One player was an Am, only 56 Pros.

Then I read that a few players scripped into the event from playing in the Am weekend. 3-4 doing that would bring it down to ~$420.

[Bryon_Harris]

The good thing about meme's is I put the computer down

[LJ Jubner]

there is still a lot to be discussed about TD's being paid or not, its not all about jub. why would you want to lock the thread. its not "so last week" as you say. the discussion is still important to have and is not even close to being stale old news.

That's why I tried the other thread because this does deserve our time and further consideration. Sometimes the message gets muted by the messenger. It's too bad we can't figure out a way to actually dialogue about this topic. If I had my way the TD's would be paid on a sliding scale (just like the tiers) but for this each would have to publish all the numbers and be held to a higher standard. The only short coming of this process is the golfer who can't or won't be bothered to respond. Apathy Kills!

This revenue could actually support more then just the weekend players. Like the port o let for 3 months instead of 3 days. It could also be used to reward volunteers with actual wages for helping or heaven forbid Tournament Sponsored Comped Entry. "That's right! Each and everyone of you contributed x $'s for this persons entry for doing ...." The opportunity is there for every golfer all they have to do is know they will be recognized for their help!

It' funny how as we beleive we progress as players ahve forgoten what it was like to be a newer player. How we believe that a rating and throwing far makes us a complete golfer. I say (well I just got out of the sin bin.) What it makes is a selfish golfer. One who bags their card to protect their rating is the sickness this sport is breeding. Gladly! The news is not all bad the ones who play bad and grind it out just because thats what they signed up for "3 rounds of 18".

jub scale
$4 for C
$6 for B (after $300 added cash disperesed across the entire field),
and a wopping $10 for A (after $1500? added cash dispersed across the entire field)

These ideas would compensate TD's for hunting sponsors without under valuing the ones who want to do it for the sport.

[DoubleDees]

That's why I tried the other thread because this does deserve our time and further consideration. Sometimes the message gets muted by the messenger. It's too bad we can't figure out a way to actually dialogue about this topic. If I had my way the TD's would be paid on a sliding scale (just like the tiers) but for this each would have to publish all the numbers and be held to a higher standard. The only short coming of this process is the golfer who can't or won't be bothered to respond. Apathy Kills!

This revenue could actually support more then just the weekend players. Like the port o let for 3 months instead of 3 days. It could also be used to reward volunteers with actual wages for helping or heaven forbid Tournament Sponsored Comped Entry. "That's right! Each and everyone of you contributed x $'s for this persons entry for doing ...." The opportunity is there for every golfer all they have to do is know they will be recognized for their help!

It' funny how as we beleive we progress as players ahve forgoten what it was like to be a newer player. How we believe that a rating and throwing far makes us a complete golfer. I say (well I just got out of the sin bin.) What it makes is a selfish golfer. One who bags their card to protect their rating is the sickness this sport is breeding. Gladly! The news is not all bad the ones who play bad and grind it out just because thats what they signed up for "3 rounds of 18".

jub scale
$4 for C
$6 for B (after $300 added cash disperesed across the entire field),
and a wopping $10 for A (after $1500? added cash dispersed across the entire field)

These ideas would compensate TD's for hunting sponsors without under valuing the ones who want to do it for the sport.

the pdga provides a scale...
follow pdga tour standards?

[LJ Jubner]

the pdga provides a scale...
follow pdga tour standards?
Correct they do! When I see the word "Rule" it means exactly to me. When I see the word "guideline" I take those as suggestions.

If they are all important? WE should just make them all rules!

I would also like to see that; If registered nationally as a Professional, then you must act like it. The first order of business is you must be current in your membership to play in any tier'd event.

put another way

No $10 fee to play Open! If your not current your don't play. And /or If an Open player wins money and is not current that renewal should be collected and submitted immediately for them.

$10 doesn't make you a current member.
It's a buy off that ALLOWS you to play.

[DoubleDees]

im looking at the am payout and 25$/ entry is in the payout. I thought the ams had sponsers and pros didnt. What happened to the 27 listed sponsers money?


thats not a good idea imo. The sport has chased off to many good players as is and thats just another reason for them not to come back.

[DoubleDees]

8x56=448. One player was an Am, only 56 Pros.

Then I read that a few players scripped into the event from playing in the Am weekend. 3-4 doing that would bring it down to ~$420.

if you read everything you wont ask stupid questions.

[Parks]

if you read everything you wont ask stupid questions.

There were no questions in my post.

[sillybizz]

PWNED!

[LJ Jubner]

Ed when was the last time you actually went out and hunted sponsorships? or TD?

Sponsorship? Actual promotion of someone/thing with some sort of "measurable benefits" back to them.

The Am weekend had 7 cash sponsors to the total of $300, 1 goods to $75. The rest were all trade out/ cross promoting either events, efforts or businesses.
$100 pDGA, $200 for trophies.

By splitting weekends there was no residual place to ADVERTISE and therefore BENEFIT for sponsoring of both weekends. Is it my fault sponsors ACTUALLY want something in RETURN besides a thank you? It's sure better then the FU I am getting.

Did the Opens get a shirt? No! So, why would anyone just hand over cash/trade with no hope of benefiting from it. I have stated over and over I choose to benefit the community by spending all my time working on the course then chasing sponsors for ungrateful people.

Lets not forget my (as it looks now generous offer) to bump either weekend up to B tier if attendance goals were met. and That the payout was posted on Sat afternoon and instead of discussing it then in person the instigator of this assault just wussed out.

I hope everyone else is as diligent as Ed is NOW at all the events they attend. And when you call the pDGA be nice to the person on the other end. They deal with players personal agendas all the time and DO appreciate a nice call once in awhile.

[DoubleDees]

As far as I can tell, you didn't prove anything.

You claim that Jub made $450 off the tournament, but the finances sheet shows $132 at most.

Where did you prove that Jub made $450? It seems if Jub is the joke, then "your" the failed punchline.


heres one. want me to keep going?

[LJ Jubner]

heres one. want me to keep going?

Dexter I am curious what sanctioned open event you have won?

Did you mean won or run? There is a big difference, One's selfish the others not

[DoubleDees]

The last time i went and got a sponser was this weekend. I collected 100$ and spent a total of 10 minutes doing that. Maybe you shouldnt be lazy. Ive been around long enough and done enough legwork that we all know you cant question my knowledge of TDing or playing.

[DoubleDees]

i deleted that. didnt realize Hock was current so i looked at his history. He stated that he sometimes wins and I wanted to see if he was talking local acepots or sanctioned events. He has a total of 630$ in the 4 events he has won.

[LJ Jubner]

The last time i went and got a sponser was this weekend. I collected 100$ and spent a total of 10 minutes doing that. Maybe you shouldnt be lazy. Ive been around long enough and done enough legwork that we all know you cant question my knowledge of TDing or playing.

Good one Ed "being around" and actually particpating as a TD are different. and If you had spent more then 10 min How much more could you have done? and SeaTac sure looked like I had been lazy.

[DoubleDees]

The last tournament I personally TDed was in March. Maybe you should try cleaning up our B course sometime.

WRO expense list that wasnt covered by players.

500$ park rental fee
chain saw blades
100$straw bails
3 kegs of beer
100 steaks
3 propane tanks
gas for moving baskets loading wood and transporting of straw
1 stolen basket
trophies
etc
etc
etc





thanks for coming to the WRO everyone.

[LJ Jubner]

The last tournament I personally TDed was in March. Maybe you should try cleaning up our B course sometime.

WRO expense list that wasn't covered by players.

500$ park rental fee
chain saw blades
100$straw bails
3 kegs of beer
100 steaks
3 propane tanks
gas for moving baskets loading wood and transporting of straw
1 stolen basket
trophies
etc
etc
etc





thanks for coming to the WRO everyone.

I heard WRO went well also but no surprise there is there.

500$ park rental fee
chain saw blades
100$straw bails
*3 kegs of beer
*100 steaks
*3 propane tanks
gas for moving baskets loading wood and transporting of straw
#1 stolen basket
trophies

* nice touch but Sounds like off the course
# that Sucks

anyway Just got off the phone with PDGA. here are the grievances


Finances tabled for more information
Rule interpretations casual water ruling needed to be approved beforehand
Splitting fields cut and times.
Enforcement of two meter rule

1. Info submitted already NO required added cash for C tier
2,3. Both of which were my decisions. I take full responsibility's for them
4. I did not announce 2 meter Sat AM, did for Sat PM. Was told "some players did take penalty some did not" (No names) Sun made announcement that 2 meter was still enforce and re-mined them that it had been Sat PM. And that some had taken penalties and other had not and told everyone that it was wrong to allow it. No one stepped forward either admitting or identifying.

It's interesting how the last three have not had any mention what so ever here. But there is nothing personal right? Mark?

[snap7times]

According to PDGA rules, 2M rule is up to TD, but if no TD announcement, it is NOT in effect. If players are not sure, they need take a provisional. Those players need to know the rules, not a TD problem, a player problem!

[Parks]

heres one. want me to keep going?

I thought you were talking about the post you quoted... because I thought you quoted it for a reason.

Regardless, the new post you are quoting has a question that is legitimate, not stupid: "Where did you prove that Jub made $450?"

I still have yet to see proof in this thread or otherwise that Jub actually made $450 in profit, rather than using the bulk of that money for expenses.

Keep going if you like.

[TYVEK]

According to PDGA rules, 2M rule is up to TD, but if no TD announcement, it is NOT in effect. If players are not sure, they need take a provisional. Those players need to know the rules, not a TD problem, a player problem!

when i played the AM weekend, i remember JUB telling us all during the Saturday morning players meeting that about his decision for the 2 meter rule. i think it was 1st round none, 2nd round yes, sundays round none. i could be wrong about the order, but my point was that he did announce the 2 meter status and the casual water before each round was played.

i totally agree with you Snap about each player being responsible enough to take a provisinal when they are not totally sure about a certain rule or OB.

[TYVEK]

personally im not really all that interested in the listing of stuff that WASNT paid for by players entry fees. that doesnt even come into this conversation, this is about the players fees and what they DID pay for.

if we wanted to make a list of things that wasnt payed for by players entry fees the lists would be to long to write, and that goes for every tournament that i have ever played. TD's are all very generous people that do alot that doesnt get paid back, and then you include all the volunteers that never get paid for their time and expenses.

so lets just focus on what the players fee is being used for and bring us back on the topic of what is a reasonable fee for a TD to take out of players fees? and how much can they take to pay for expenses like equipment, gas, paint, string?