PARS

[REDFIVE]

A short discussion came up at the CSI this weekend that prompted the best reason I had heard for changing par on holes.

Player A who is starting on hole 1 at sea tac is running late and misses the hole. They take a 7 on a 250ft birdie hole.

Player B who is starting on hole 18 is also running late and misses the hole. They get a 7 on a hole that a 4 is more likely than a 3 and a 5 or 6 is common.

According to the competition manual section 1.5;

If a player is not present to throw when it
is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole.

The above example does not punish player B as harshly as player A for the same crime.

This is the best reason I have heard for adjusting pars.

***yes, these players should have been on time to begin with and they wouldnt have to deal with the penalty.***

[Chuck Kennedy]

This is in fact the only "official" reason for setting pars. There are other reasons of course but this is the official one.

[CMC206]

Listen to my brief interview with Dave Feldberg at the CSI. I asked him what he thought about par 54 at the Tac. The situation above happened to a guy in my group last year at the Jet Wash he came back late from lunch and was taking 7's on 13, 14, 15. Either way this is a dead horse that has been badly beaten. I still agree with Dave though... http://www.rewindb.com/audio/3.26.11 it comes in around 29 minutes.. Peace!

[sillybizz]

Listen to my brief interview with Dave Feldberg at the CSI. I asked him what he thought about par 54 at the Tac. The situation above happened to a guy in my group last year at the Jet Wash he came back late from lunch and was taking 7's on 13, 14, 15. Either way this is a dead horse that has been badly beaten. I still agree with Dave though... http://www.rewindb.com/audio/3.26.11 it comes in around 29 minutes.. Peace!

Oh my goodness I agree with Dave, now I'm starting to question myself. "Washington Block" sounds about right. This subject exhausts me.

[SPIDER-DAN]

Does it really matter? I like the challenge of trying to get par at seatac.........i have shot 54 twice, but never have i shot under and that would be very cool. I am in no way against changing the pars, but the fact remains that it has been this way for a long time and it would just be weird to play it any differently now.

As far as taking a seven on hole 1 compared to hole 16 if you come back late from lunch.......well.........that is just the luck of the draw and makes it much more important not to be late. Some people like to start on hole 1 and others on hole 12........not everyone gets what they want unless you go to start times and every group starts on hole 1 every 7-10 minutes.

Shelton springs has several par 4 and par 5 holes and i would not want that to change due to the fact that it was played that way from the beginning.

Tough topic.........i guess the only solution would depend on the person running the individual event. Jub could run an event and have it par 54.........great!!! Andrew could run another event and have it par 60.........great as well!!! Like i said..........does it really matter?

[REDFIVE]

I would rather have a 7 on 18 than on 1. That matters. Even if the par is 59 or 60 the goal is still below 54. Whatever the par is at shelton the goal is still below 54. Milo, goal is below 54. No it doesn't matter unless I am penalized with a 7 on hole 1 when another player may be penalized a 7 on a hole like 18. The impact of those penalties on the field is much different also. I was +7 on the back at sea tac this weekend with 6 bogie strokes on 18 alone. I was -2 on 1. That is a difference of almost 3 strokes per round. I think that has the chance to matter.

[Bullseye]

All I envision when I think of this subject is... that one last dude... arguing that the world is flat.

[Parks]

I think the key is to not show up late if you're starting on a birdie hole.

[Skookum]

I would rather have a 7 on 18 than on 1. That matters. Even if the par is 59 or 60 the goal is still below 54. Whatever the par is at shelton the goal is still below 54. Milo, goal is below 54. No it doesn't matter unless I am penalized with a 7 on hole 1 when another player may be penalized a 7 on a hole like 18. The impact of those penalties on the field is much different also. I was +7 on the back at sea tac this weekend with 6 bogie strokes on 18 alone. I was -2 on 1. That is a difference of almost 3 strokes per round. I think that has the chance to matter.


Not sure what you mean by the "goal is below 54" The skill it takes to get a 54 on any of those courses is vastly different than a regular par 54 course. 54 at Seatac is about a 1030 rated round, while 54 at Milo and Shelton Springs is even higher 1045ish.

Seatac SSA 57-58
Milo SSA 58-59
Shelton Springs 57-60 (Still a few changes being made to this course)

I would say the "goal" at any course is to shoot as low as possible, not sure that's always going to be the same number though.

[sillybizz]

All I envision when I think of this subject is... that one last dude... arguing that the world is flat.

:kissflowers: :kissflowers: :kissflowers:

[Altophish]

The rule is stupid! How can you card scores for holes that you never played? I think it should be a 2 stroke penalty if you make it to your first hole BEFORE the group has finished on the hole. After that it should be a Disqualification!
It's just not that hard to be at your tee on time...like everyone else!

[Will of Doom]

All I envision when I think of this subject is... that one last dude... arguing that the world is flat.


It's not? :shocked:

[Kenny B]

Does it really matter?

I think it matters. I think TDs should think it matters too. The one time I went to world's, I was dumb enough to rely on an unfamiliar hotel alarm clock. I missed holes on my first round. I was given an 8 on one hole that was par 4 (no trees, 400 feet w/ slight uphill). When I played that hole again two days later, my drive was only about 50 feet out. I was mad about that 8. We all know how much one stroke can matter in a tournament. So let's get the pars correct so that the rules can be applied in a fair manner to all (not just the luck of the draw).

[Matt B.]

The rule is stupid! How can you card scores for holes that you never played? I think it should be a 2 stroke penalty if you make it to your first hole BEFORE the group has finished on the hole. After that it should be a Disqualification!
It's just not that hard to be at your tee on time...like everyone else!

DQ for missing a hole? I'd much rather get to play the tournament I paid for with some 7's on my card than get DQ'ed because of any number of legitimate reasons for being late.

[CMC206]

I agree with Matt B..

[Chuck Kennedy]

One of the reasons we drop a player's round rating that's more than 2.5SD or 100 points below their rating is due to this late rule. We figure if a player is more than two holes late that their score does not really reflect the range of scores they might be likely to shoot without the penalties.

[Altophish]

So let's say...just for arguments sake...that you have a twelve stroke lead going into the final round. Instead of showing up on time you sleep in a little and get to the course in time to pick up the round on the 4th hole and have another great round and finish in the lead.
Your saying that even though everyone else on the weekend played all 54 holes and you only play 51 that you should still get to win? Does that sound even remotely fair?
I don't know about any of the rest of you but I'd rather get my ass kicked by 20 strokes than finish 1 stroke back of someone who didn't even play a full round.

If your paying to play disc golf then be there for disc golf! If something comes up you just have to make a decision what's more important to you. I mean, if you can't finish a round with everyone else you don't get a score, right? So, why would you get a score for not being able to start a round with everyone else?

just my opinion

[Chuck Kennedy]

You're saying that even though everyone else on the weekend played all 54 holes and you only play 51 that you should still get to win? Does that sound even remotely fair? I don't know about any of the rest of you but I'd rather get my ass kicked by 20 strokes than finish 1 stroke back of someone who didn't even play a full round.
It's really no different from playing extra conservatively all round where you give up 6 to 8 shots to the field. The player is taking a known risk within the rules to skip a few holes versus play safe. Both strategies are still risky and the player could get burned.

[Matt B.]

So let's say...just for arguments sake...that you have a twelve stroke lead going into the final round. Instead of showing up on time you sleep in a little and get to the course in time to pick up the round on the 4th hole and have another great round and finish in the lead.
Your saying that even though everyone else on the weekend played all 54 holes and you only play 51 that you should still get to win? Does that sound even remotely fair?
I don't know about any of the rest of you but I'd rather get my ass kicked by 20 strokes than finish 1 stroke back of someone who didn't even play a full round.

If your paying to play disc golf then be there for disc golf! If something comes up you just have to make a decision what's more important to you. I mean, if you can't finish a round with everyone else you don't get a score, right? So, why would you get a score for not being able to start a round with everyone else?

just my opinion

Well that's not what I'm specifically talking about when I say I'd rather not be DQ'ed from a tournament I paid $70 for because I was say, performing CPR on a child and arrived ten minutes late. I'd rather take my 7 or multiple 7's and get to play what I paid for.

I think the notion that someone is going to not show up as a strategy is pretty far-fetched but who knows.

[Altophish]

Yes, far fetched. (And I would hope no one would really do that). I'm only arguing that the rule is way to friendly to the disc golfer.
I KNOW you'd rather get to play out at $70 but I'd rather not take a stroke for going OB. Or I'd rather move a branch out of my way.

But the rules don't exist for what we'd rather have happen. They exist to maintain a fair and even playing field for everyone.

And, in my opinion, carding a score for an incomplete round is not fair to the players that did finish a full round.

Also, life saving is always outside the rules!

[mine all mine]

But the rules don't exist for what we'd rather have happen. They exist to maintain a fair and even playing field for everyone.

And, in my opinion, carding a score for an incomplete round is not fair to the players that did finish a full round.

Also, life saving is always outside the rules!

That is why you get carded with a score of par plus four. That is a pretty huge penalty for being late.

If life saving is outside the rules, what about getting pulled over, flat tire, broken down car, power failures ( alarm doesn't go off)...the list could go on and on. That is why the PDGA has made a rule to allow for unforeseen tardiness at the start of a round.

[Matt B.]

Yes, far fetched. (And I would hope no one would really do that). I'm only arguing that the rule is way to friendly to the disc golfer.
I KNOW you'd rather get to play out at $70 but I'd rather not take a stroke for going OB. Or I'd rather move a branch out of my way.

But the rules don't exist for what we'd rather have happen. They exist to maintain a fair and even playing field for everyone.

And, in my opinion, carding a score for an incomplete round is not fair to the players that did finish a full round.

Also, life saving is always outside the rules!

Well, now this is just getting silly but I will play along. The comparison to OB strokes etc. is really not relevant. The rule has already been established to keep things fair, and that rule is that you get par plus four, which in my opinion, is pretty fair and appropriately punitive. Basically your round, and potentially your tournament has been seriously impacted after one hole.

Let's say you register for the BSF at $175. You take two days off of work, drive 100 miles, and set up camp or even buy a hotel room. Somehow you get confused on your starting hole and show up ten minutes late. Is it your fault? Yes, it's your fault. Dumb, innocent mistake. There's something "fair" about getting kicked out of the tournament and your entry fee forfeited?

It's an opinion to say that would be fair. But I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of people supporting this scenario. Or anyone. :rolleyes2:

[Altophish]

"But I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find a lot of people supporting this scenario. Or anyone. "


:laughing::laughing::laughing:Ya think? I'm ok with that. Like I said this is just my opinion and the reasons for it. I only think that you don't get to say you ran a marathon if you start at the 5 mile mark.:wink2:

[Yardbird]

That would only be true if you were running in a Marathon for the sole purpose of saying you ran a "Marathon".

If you were competing in a Marathon for prizes, then you would be severly penalized by adding twice the average time for the missed 5 miles that you didn't run.

Sounds fair to me. If you miss some of the "game", then you will be penalized and will have a harder chance of finishing in the top spots.

Usually, the players that are late to a round are already at a disadvantage because they are being rushed into starting a round and aren't warmed up. Their first few holes will most likely not be good, too. Adding the penalty strokes for missed holes. I really doubt that a player that missed a couple holes in a tournamnet will be in the top 10 spots for payout. But, of course, the player could have a couple of stellar rounds and one good. The good one could of been stellar if they player actually played all the holes.