10th Downriver Open - Apr. 9 & 10

[Wobbly Bob]

10th ANNUAL DOWNRIVER OPEN

A PDGA "B" Tier Tournament

April 9 & 10, 2011

:yay: 3 Rounds of 18 holes at the Beautiful Downriver Disc Golf Course :yay:

:rockon: Online registration is available at PDGA Sign-up (http://www.pdgasignup.com/Qstore/Qstore.cgi?CMD=011&PROD=1299786350) :rockon:

:dancing: Download the flyer/entry form below or at SDGA.us (http://www.pixsvr.com/pics/pdgasignup/2011/10th%20Annual%20Downriver%20Open%2011%20FLYER.pdf) :dancing:

:trophy: You may view the registered players at the PDGA Tournament page (http://www.pdga.com/tournament_results/67414). :trophy:

Tournament limited to 90 competitors.

Registration closes on Thursday, April 7, 2011.

For more info email Wobbly Bob Perrewe (bobperrewe@hotmail.com)

[Lyounger]

Fingers crossed for good weather this weekend!!

Sign up ends THIS Thursday!!

Any other Montana folks coming over?

[littlevahn]

What time will be the kick off?

[littlevahn]

What time will be the kick off?

Nevermind just saw the flyer. Sorry!

[Stimpi]

Speaking of weather, the forecast indicates sunshine all weekend. It is Spring, so I may pack a small shelter to protect from the occasional hailstorm. hehe

[psychodwarf]

whats not on the flyer is there will be hambugers and brautwrust, potato salad and water on sale for lunch at downriver.. $6 gets you 2 hamburgers or 2 brauts potato salad and water

any questions call joe 509-218-0567 ( yes i will have vegi meals as well )

[Lyounger]

Yay!! More and more Montana folks are heading over for this tourney!!

Ummnnn, if you are local and you haven't signed up.....well............you might want to get a hold of Bob TODAY!!

[Gordy #21004]

There are about 10 spots left. They will go to the first people who convince Bob to let them in. It's called Downriver but the:chug: river is by no means down.:chug:

[jWest]

Bob... Let me innnnn!!! Pleaseeeeee!!! Pdga 36076

[ericedge]

Thanks for getting those Saturday scores up promptly, I love seeing how everyone is doing! Looks like a lot of players are there having a fun time. 8 Pro Women, way to go!

EE

[PuttsRrad]

come on Money! win that division!

[psychodwarf]

we had an awesome run for the 10TH Downriver Open CAPPED OUT AT 95 PLAYERS could have used more sun and less wind but in the end it was well worth it THANK YOU TO ALL THE PLAYERS WHO CAME OUT TO PLAY

[General Scales]

It was good although the ghost group and was very annoying to get stuck behind. Serious back ups all around the course because of it. Overall great, liked hole 2 (probably one of the few). Will be back next year to seek revenge.

One question, I heard and was around people that had heard that some of the basket positions were going to change on Sunday since there are like 4 or 5 collars still in the ground. What happened there?

[Sean Johnson]

Yeah, I actually didn't have any problems with 2 either. I just threw my CFR Gazelle at the tree on the right and let it hyzer out to the left/center of the fairway. In general, I'm not a huge fan of artificial ob or mandos, but this one really made for some serious point swings. The river ended up being my worst enemy. I took back to back 5s on 7 and managed to lose my favorite disc along the way (twice).

Despite the backups on the course, I will say that I probably had more fun at this tourney than any other to date. Thanks to everyone who TD'd, volunteered, and put in work at the course! :yay::yay::yay:

[psychodwarf]

One question, I heard and was around people that had heard that some of the basket positions were going to change on Sunday since there are like 4 or 5 collars still in the ground. What happened there? at last minute it was decided it would go against the PDGA`S rules
It was good although the ghost group and was very annoying to get stuck behind. Serious back ups all around the course because of it the player list was over the cap limit of 90. overall i do think it was a good turnout this year (minus the crappy weather)

[Wobbly Bob]

It was good although the ghost group and was very annoying to get stuck behind. Serious back ups all around the course because of it. Overall great, liked hole 2 (probably one of the few). Will be back next year to seek revenge.

One question, I heard and was around people that had heard that some of the basket positions were going to change on Sunday since there are like 4 or 5 collars still in the ground. What happened there?



After much 'disc'ussion the TD and staff opted to keep the course in the same configuration to get a solid three rounds on the same course for the course rating. When all of the new pins are in (hopefully before LCO) and measured and ready to go, we will hopefully go to a rotation system similar to High Bridge.

[General Scales]

Well that makes sense. Thanks Bob and great tournament.

[Gordy #21004]

Another 'disc'usion the TD and the officials had was over whether the Final "9" would qualify as a rated round since there were 22 propagators going out. It was brought up that the PDGA sets a minimum of 13 holes of play for a round to be rated so we concluded the '9' would not be rated....During that round I was asked by a player if the round was to be rated because they were having a terrible time and would rather drop out, forfeit their winnings, and not have this event affect their player rating. I assured them the round would not be rated based on the conclusion above. In the meantime I see there are ratings for the'9' on the results page so I potentially have an upset player to answer.:shocked: The only consolation I have to offer at this time also comes from the PDGA; Players who withdraw or fail to turn in their scorecards at the end of play in order to protect their player rating are subject to separate penalties and/or sanctions from the PDGA. (see Competition Manual, section 3 under player misconduct,3.3,#13. .....I'll wait to see if the ratings for the '9' stand and if so I'm sorry for giving the player information that I thought was accurate. In light of the player's clear intent to protect their rating from a high score, however, I think the 'letter' of a high level of player conduct remained intact. ....This issue of withdrawls and player conduct came to my attention during the final counting of cards at the Officials table when it became known that other players had not turned in their cards and thus had raised the 'suggestion' that an attempt to protect individual ratings was afoot.:shocked:

[LJ Jubner]

"withdrawls" asks an interisting question the comp manuel states
< 14 full refund -10% cash
14-7 half refund *
>7 no refund *

*disclaimer TD discression is always first choice to amount or type of compensation (PP)

[psychodwarf]

"withdrawls" asks an interisting question the comp manuel states
< 14 full refund -10% cash
14-7 half refund *
>7 no refund *

*disclaimer TD discression is always first choice to amount or type of compensation (PP)

any reason that this is here? is this for DRO or just some random infomation? just wondering

[Gordy #21004]

any reason that this is here? is this for DRO or just some random infomation? just wondering

Jub is talking about withdrawls prior to the event. I'm referring to withdrawl during the event. Maybe it would be better if I called it 'did not finish'. G.

[mcbentz]

Another 'disc'usion the TD and the officials had was over whether the Final "9" would qualify as a rated round since there were 22 propagators going out. It was brought up that the PDGA sets a minimum of 13 holes of play for a round to be rated so we concluded the '9' would not be rated....During that round I was asked by a player if the round was to be rated because they were having a terrible time and would rather drop out, forfeit their winnings, and not have this event affect their player rating. I assured them the round would not be rated based on the conclusion above. In the meantime I see there are ratings for the'9' on the results page so I potentially have an upset player to answer.:shocked: The only consolation I have to offer at this time also comes from the PDGA; Players who withdraw or fail to turn in their scorecards at the end of play in order to protect their player rating are subject to separate penalties and/or sanctions from the PDGA. (see Competition Manual, section 3 under player misconduct,3.3,#13. .....I'll wait to see if the ratings for the '9' stand and if so I'm sorry for giving the player information that I thought was accurate. In light of the player's clear intent to protect their rating from a high score, however, I think the 'letter' of a high level of player conduct remained intact. ....This issue of withdrawls and player conduct came to my attention during the final counting of cards at the Officials table when it became known that other players had not turned in their cards and thus had raised the 'suggestion' that an attempt to protect individual ratings was afoot.:shocked:


Gordy,

I was the guy questioning you about the Final 9 being rated. After being assured I was a little surprised to see that the final 9 was rated. :slapface:

After reading that "players who withdraw or fail to turn in their scorecards at the end of play in order to protect their player rating (which was my intent) is against pdga rules"..... I have no hard feelings :cheers:

I would much rather shoot bad and be legit then brake the pdga rules and be penalized for doing so.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that if you're rated round (837) is 100 points lower then you rating (953) that round would not count towards your rating.

Is there still hope afterall???

Matt-

[mcbentz]

On another note,

You said "This issue of withdrawls and player conduct came to my attention during the final counting of cards at the Officials table when it became known that other players had not turned in their cards and thus had raised the 'suggestion' that an attempt to protect individual ratings was afoot"

If I had known the round was going to be rated I would have dropped out! Know question about it!!! Of course this is prior to my knowledge of the rule.

So, as an official would you have reported me to the PDGA for doing so?

Just curious....

[ScottW]

My interpretation of the rule - as a certified official - would be to say that if a player intentionally quit during a round by either purposely playing poorly to drop a rating so much that it would fall 100 point or more than 2 Standard Deviations below their rating, or intentionally did not play their last shot so as to not officially finish a round, or not turn in their scorecard for a completed round then yes that would be in violation of the above rule that Gordy mentioned and would be reportable to the PDGA (as I think it should be, you are only cheating your self and falsely inflating your rating by doing so). I am not sure how this would apply to a final 9 playoff situation though. It would probably apply as long as the final 9 layout was announced in advance then it would be up to the player to decide whether or not to enter the tournament at all because the finals layout was announced in advance. Just my interpretation of the rules.

[Parks]

at last minute it was decided it would go against the PDGA`S rules

It's not against PDGA rules to use different course layouts, so I'm not sure where this came from.

[psychodwarf]

My interpretation of the rule - as a certified official - would be to say that if a player intentionally quit during a round by either purposely playing poorly to drop a rating so much that it would fall 100 point or more than 2 Standard Deviations below their rating, or intentionally did not play their last shot so as to not officially finish a round, or not turn in their scorecard for a completed round then yes that would be in violation of the above rule that Gordy mentioned and would be reportable to the PDGA (as I think it should be, you are only cheating your self and falsely inflating your rating by doing so). I am not sure how this would apply to a final 9 playoff situation though. It would probably apply as long as the final 9 layout was announced in advance then it would be up to the player to decide whether or not to enter the tournament at all because the finals layout was announced in advance. Just my interpretation of the rules.

this seems to make a lot of sense ...

parks , that`s what i was told .. i can be wrong some times. ( i hope 85% of the time i am right or .. could that be wrong .. my math is not really good lately )

[mcbentz]

My interpretation of the rule - as a certified official - would be to say that if a player intentionally quit during a round by either purposely playing poorly to drop a rating so much that it would fall 100 point or more than 2 Standard Deviations below their rating, or intentionally did not play their last shot so as to not officially finish a round, or not turn in their scorecard for a completed round then yes that would be in violation of the above rule that Gordy mentioned and would be reportable to the PDGA (as I think it should be, you are only cheating your self and falsely inflating your rating by doing so). I am not sure how this would apply to a final 9 playoff situation though. It would probably apply as long as the final 9 layout was announced in advance then it would be up to the player to decide whether or not to enter the tournament at all because the finals layout was announced in advance. Just my interpretation of the rules.

So, what your saying is he should report me for shooting 100 points under my rating?

[General Scales]

So, what your saying is he should report me for shooting 100 points under my rating?

If you did it deliberately.

[Gordy #21004]

So, what your saying is he should report me for shooting 100 points under my rating?

Matt, You did nothing wrong. Your tough time in the Final Nine was in no way intentional. I only brought up your particular situation because it seemed to me relative to the instance of other player's cards not being turned in. As I was not the Director, it would not be up to me to rule on disqualification. As a marshal or as an official I do report back to the Director but in your case there was no cause for action; .... In my own rounds we had some lively rules discussions among ourselves and my objectives as a player include continuing to educate myself and my co-players about standards of play, and not to be on a mission to hand out penalties.......The rules keep changing and it is difficult for players AND officials to keep up with what's expected of them. Our first Super Tour is coming up over Memorial Day and I'm sure we'll all be in the cross-hairs. Come play with us again. Gordy.:chug:

[Gordy #21004]

Can I talk about what a great weekend I had with youall yet? For me, I did my best and then I did my worst. It was great while it was going good and when I collapsed I took it in stride. Its just way to nice at Downriver on a spring day to 'blow up' and and spoil such a good time. Thanks to everyone who came out and who helped out and especially to Bob who pulled this event out of nowhere, got it on the schedule and put it all together in about three weeks. Gordy:chug:

[ScottW]

This is interesting conversation. All i was saying is what General Scales said in his last post. Thanks Stu!

[jshrack]

I really don't think anyone had a clear understanding of that final 9.
Nobody was told if it was required or optional...
I think a lot of people were tired after 3 rounds and would have opted out if it just meant that they didn't get plastic.
I also know a lot of people wanted to watch the PRO final 9, it was odd playing AM and NOT getting to watch the big guns duel it out at the end.
This usually seems to be the time where everyone winds down and enjoys watching some good golf and the end of a long tourney...

If we had chosen to skip the FINAL 9, would it have counted as a DNF?
Or could we have just taken our place out of the money?

Lots of questions arise of the situation... I still had a blast!
One of the funnest tourneys I have been to, can't wait for the next!

[LJ Jubner]

I really don't think anyone had a clear understanding of that final 9.
Nobody was told if it was required or optional...
I think a lot of people were tired after 3 rounds and would have opted out if it just meant that they didn't get plastic.
I also know a lot of people wanted to watch the PRO final 9, it was odd playing AM and NOT getting to watch the big guns duel it out at the end.
This usually seems to be the time where everyone winds down and enjoys watching some good golf and the end of a long tourney...

If we had chosen to skip the FINAL 9, would it have counted as a DNF?
Or could we have just taken our place out of the money?

Lots of questions arise of the situation... I still had a blast!
One of the funnest tourneys I have been to, can't wait for the next!


Thsi happend several years ago at an LCO AM player was better then last cash pased on 9 and took last cash.

I was looking at the flyer and it says
Format all players
Sat Two rounds w lunch break assuming 18 hole/round min
Sun 1 round with safari final 9
Final 9 Open cash +1
Final 9 Adv scrip +1

Seems pretty straight forward to me 9 was included.

Now the passing on the nine is intersting. It would depend on how the paperwork was sbmitted as a 54 hole event or a 54 hole event + a final 9. If you did pass on the nine you should not DNF just sacrifice your payout

[Lyounger]

Stimpi apologized for the problems associated with the false start but I couldn't hear why it happened.

Is this a circumstance we could all learn from or just one of things that happened and needs to be let go...

[Stimpi]

Stimpi apologized for the problems associated with the false start but I couldn't hear why it happened.

Is this a circumstance we could all learn from or just one of things that happened and needs to be let go...

Typically, events allow about an hour break, from when the last cards are turned in. I was thinking in this direction, and anxious to begin the second round, noticing the weather building up in the SouthWest, so I called for the second round, not knowing there was a specific time listed on the registration flyer.
When this was brought to my attention, the round was stopped until the appointed time, with the "late" players allowed to catch up in the mean time. That just seemed fair to me, and I apologize again for not knowing how my own event is supposed to be run.
What should be learned here, is... read your own flyers, or don't put a specific second round time and have everyone in the event ask you, "What time do we start the second round?".
Another thing to learn is, don't get wigged out when spontaneity strikes and things change. Change is inevitable.
Stimpi

[TreeLove]

TD Tips: ALWAYS stick to the posted facts. If there are multiple source of information, always update them all at the same time. ALWAYS stick to the posted schedule. DGOD, you hearing me ;) ?

[Lyounger]

Typically, events allow about an hour break, from when the last cards are turned in. I was thinking in this direction, and anxious to begin the second round, noticing the weather building up in the SouthWest, so I called for the second round, not knowing there was a specific time listed on the registration flyer.
When this was brought to my attention, the round was stopped until the appointed time, with the "late" players allowed to catch up in the mean time. That just seemed fair to me, and I apologize again for not knowing how my own event is supposed to be run.
What should be learned here, is... read your own flyers, or don't put a specific second round time and have everyone in the event ask you, "What time do we start the second round?".
Another thing to learn is, don't get wigged out when spontaneity strikes and things change. Change is inevitable.
Stimpi

Thank you for the explanation!!

No worries at all :-)

Didn't realize people got all wigged out and didn't mean to make you re-live the trauma:slapface:

[TreeLove]

Of course people wigged out. When don't they?

[General Scales]

Yeah we had to restart right after I posted a 3 on hole 9. I was quite upset at that. So I went back and did it again. Wasn't so upset after that.

[gmason1]

General- Im not clear on the rules for false start but Seems to me that shouldnt have been your fault? if the start horn was blasted and you threw it shouldnt count against you or constitute a re-throw? i would be really upset if the horn blew, I threw and ace and then had to re-throw at my expense when it wasnt my bad? I even heard of one person complaining they had to take an extra stroke on throw 1 because of the early horn? if throws are early in a situation like this cant you just play the discs where they landed once the official horn is blown? Seems like the TD should be the ones ruling on this particular event and it seemed like it was being handled group by group rather than being addressed by the TD as a whole what the penalites would be..

-G

[General Scales]

General- Im not clear on the rules for false start but Seems to me that shouldnt have been your fault? if the start horn was blasted and you threw it shouldnt count against you or constitute a re-throw? i would be really upset if the horn blew, I threw and ace and then had to re-throw at my expense when it wasnt my bad? I even heard of one person complaining they had to take an extra stroke on throw 1 because of the early horn? if throws are early in a situation like this cant you just play the discs where they landed once the official horn is blown? Seems like the TD should be the ones ruling on this particular event and it seemed like it was being handled group by group rather than being addressed by the TD as a whole what the penalites would be..

-G

The issue as I understand with a false (or early) start is that everyone on the course is to proceed to their starting hole and re-throw. It'd be a bigger nuisance on an ace run for sure. The good thing was that it wouldn't of had any effect on my score for the tournament. I took myself out with out of bounds and lost discs. I do think that this a rule that needs to be looked over by the PDGA. This could ruin a brilliant set of throws on a difficult hole. Good example of this would be starting out on Farragut D.B.D hole 18. Get a birdie on it (which would be monumental considering the distance and difficulty of the hole). Then find out you have to walk back to the pad and start over because of a false start. Thats a hole where I would argue with the person controlling the horn because the chances of birding that hole back to back are small at best.

All in all however, I had a great time at the tournament.

[Sean Johnson]

Then you have to look at the flip side; what would happen if you went from going ob on 2, then had to re-tee because of a restart, and turned around and parked it? I use this example because Jon V had a birdie look with a huge lefty flex shot that came within a foot of going ob and it could have easily gone the other way.

Also, what happens if half the group throws and the horn blows before the other half tees off? I'm only playing devils advocate here, and pointing out how hard it would be to uniformly enforce any solution. My group completed an entire hole before we heard that we were supposed to stop and even we were not told to re-tee, we were told to stop playing and wait for the horn.

Solution? Keep to the schedule. Players get 4 strokes for being late, and neither the rules or public opinion seem to give any leeway for getting a start time wrong (especially when the reason is that they didn't double check the flier). It's only fair that everone involved in the tournament should be held to the same standard.

PS- Didn't we also start early on day 2?

[Wobbly Bob]

Quote by gmason1 - General- Im not clear on the rules for false start but Seems to me that shouldnt have been your fault? if the start horn was blasted and you threw it shouldnt count against you or constitute a re-throw? i would be really upset if the horn blew, I threw and ace and then had to re-throw at my expense when it wasnt my bad? I even heard of one person complaining they had to take an extra stroke on throw 1 because of the early horn? if throws are early in a situation like this cant you just play the discs where they landed once the official horn is blown? Seems like the TD should be the ones ruling on this particular event and it seemed like it was being handled group by group rather than being addressed by the TD as a whole what the penalites would be..

Just so all concerned know, I did include the delayed start incident to the PDGA in the TD report. :posting:

Greg, I take full responsibility for the second round early start at the DRO. When I blew the horn to stop after the second round had started, I yelled STOP as loud as I could and heard people yell stop back to me.

Stopping play and marking one's lie was what was supposed to have happened.

General, your score the first time you threw the hole was the score you were supposed to use. This is one of those situations where if it was unclear how to proceed the provisional throw rule should have been used and at the end of the round you should have come to the TD for a ruling.

No one received any penalty strokes from the mistake that I made that I know of. After six years as a TD I am still learning about how to properly run a tournament and I will remember this incident every time I start a tournament round.