What would you do?

[Scott]

2nd hold of the second round in a tournament, in second place be 4 throws. After both you and the leader have thrown your upshots that are both basically under the basket the leader walks up to your disc and begins to putt. Do you point out the fact that he's at your lie, or do you let him putt it and take the penalty (two penalty throws, without warning: 803.10)?

[snap7times]

If you see he takes your lie, call it before he throws, dont be a jerk and make him take a penalty you could have prevented easily.

[Scott]

If you see he takes your lie, call it before he throws, dont be a jerk and make him take a penalty you could have prevented easily.

Which is exactly what I did. But on the walk out to the next hole a little Scott with devil horns and a pitchfork appeared over my left shoulder and whispered that I should have let him make the mistake. I'm glad I listened to the good Scott instead; I really want to win, but not that way.

I'm just really curious about what others would do in a similar situation.

[Sam]

Was this Josh?

[HarrisonH]

I really want to win, but not that way.

Still a ways to go before I'm competing in PDGA events, but that sums up my mentality should I come across the situation.

[CMC206]

I would have tried to stop it if I could have. I don't like people that are always on the lookout to stroke you. I don't care if its A, b, or C tier. The only thing I would stroke someone for is littering after a warning.

[dooley]

Which is exactly what I did. But on the walk out to the next hole a little Scott with devil horns and a pitchfork appeared over my left shoulder and whispered that I should have let him make the mistake. I'm glad I listened to the good Scott instead; I really want to win, but not that way.

I'm just really curious about what others would do in a similar situation.

I would warn him if i saw he was going to putt from my disc if you were both under the basket.I would warn him after if he had issued any warnings to me during play.I would penalize him only if i was pretty sure he would do the same.:D

[Scott]

Was this Josh?

No, but I think Josh would have won if the penalty had been applied. I haven't seen the results yet.

[JMan]

It is the hardest question in DG, and where compitition runs headlong into the hippy mindset that prevailed in this game for years. If you play a toureny you want to do good, but if you want to win as well you hope those around you do poorly. Stroke the bastard...play big or go home...you should get to slap him too...tough call...warn him and then ask him if that is his disc everytime he approaches his disc from then on. Oh, this was the tourney at Wortman...nevermind...

[geo_ducks]

An understandable dilemma. It is good to see that folks prefer the 'higher road.' How satisfying would it be to win on an inadvertent penalty stroke (good thing there is a warning/rethrow first).

However, this brings up an important point: Why is calling a penalty or warning considered bad, evil, or even strategic? This is an issue disc golf needs to change. Rules are rules, and they should be followed. If a putt-jump is actually a jump-putt, then it is a foot fault. If a disc is thrown from the wrong lie, then it is a warning/rethrow or a penalty (if it is the 2nd time).
This is one category where our beloved sport should take a page from ball golf...HONOR, DISCIPLINE, SELF-ACCOUNTABILITY. "Thanks for calling that on me! I want to play the game the right way!"
This reminds me of when I first came to Eugene, not knowing the rules all that well. Andy Hock called me on a foot fault from a fairway lie. I have been good about hitting my lie ever since. Golfers helping golfers, the way to truely learn and improve!

[Sam]

Actually, geo... in this case there is no warning nor rethrow. It is a simple two stroke penalty that is unavoidable once the infraction occurs. I know this because... well... let's just say I know this. :)

[Scott]

Sam is correct:

803.10 Throwing From Another Player’s Lie:
A. A player who has thrown from another player’s lie shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning. The offending player shall complete the hole as if the other player’s lie were his or her own. No throws shall be replayed.

[Ol' Bob]

I'd say, if Scott is in your group, always be on the lookout for them devil horns. Better to head it off by giving him a shot of your Red Bull.

[The Ombudsman]

I would definitely say something before he putted. Stimpi would probably let the guy putt first.

[cefire]

I would definitely say something before it went down! I'd be ashamed to win in that way, you'd remember something like that forever.

[ryanajanes]

when i read this, my first thought was that most of the people who respond would say they would tell him. But who knows what people in the same situation would really do. We can all act righteous on a forum lol.

[Lyounger]

However, this brings up an important point: Why is calling a penalty or warning considered bad, evil, or even strategic? This is an issue disc golf needs to change. Rules are rules, and they should be followed. ...HONOR, DISCIPLINE, SELF-ACCOUNTABILITY. "Thanks for calling that on me! I want to play the game the right way!"


I appreciate this comment and I have so much respect for players who handle themselves with grace when something is pointed out to them.

I often play tournaments with folks who are new and do not know the rules. I used to painstakingly craft my words gently and with sensitivity so I wouldn't offend them when I kindly let them know that their actions were not allowed in tournament play and could incure a warning and even subsequent strokes.

More often than not the person got angry, became defensive and continued to break the rules...then go talk to people about what a rules nazi they played with.

It boggles my mind. I enjoy playing pool... but I would NEVER compete in a pool tournament without reading the rules. And I certainly wouldn't be a jerk to someone trying to help me learn the game if I missed something.

Why is the attitude so different in disg golf?

Now, I RARELY say a word to anyone who is breaking the rules unless it's littering, damaging the course or excessive anger.

Foot faults, pencil whipping, cheating their lie, stance violations....when I see someone do that and that person is competing in my division, especially if our scores are close....I keep my mouth shut. It's a shame but it has NEVER paid off for me. If someone beats my score with bad feet, I know it. They may or may not know it but I know it.

Guess it comes back to me playing the course, not the other players and me enjoying the experience.

Once bitten - twice shy...

[Cajun]

At minimum he owes you a beer. And maybe some grace if you would have had a good natured minor "penalty" type situation in the same round.

[BigBubbBelly]

The question you have to ask yourself is do you want to beat this individual or do you want to win because of a technicality? I would defiently mention it to him before he putted. If Im gonna beat someone(doesnt happen often)I want it to be because I outplayed said individual. I dont want to win or gain ground on someone because of a mental slip. If it happend time and again, then thats another issue.

[ryanajanes]

technically you did outplay them if they commit an infraction. the infraction was part of them not being mentally on top of their game

[TREX]

technically you did outplay them if they commit an infraction. the infraction was part of them not being mentally on top of their game

I agree to this .

I whole heartedly believe in good sportsmanship and I would stop and tell someone just out of habit not even thinking of the score or situation. But it does need to be said that lack of mental focus leading to this type of penalty is part of the game, especially in a tournament atmosphere.
Cheers to you for being a good sport, I'm sure he learned a lesson there knowing what that would have cost him if you let it go.

[Sausage Fingers]

technically you did outplay them if they commit an infraction. the infraction was part of them not being mentally on top of their game

And I probably wouldn't mention it until after the shot. And yes, I am a rule Nazi. You don't want to play by the rules then you probably shouldn't play in PDGA sanctioned tourneys.

But that doesn't mean I wouldn't call the same thing on myself as soon as I realized the mistake. Making a mental error like that is a part of the tournament game. Sometimes you screw up. I take my penalties when I have erred. I expect my opponent to do the same. If they are such babies that playing by the rules causes them to complain, maybe they should stay home or play casually.

:pirate:

[emmarose]

interesting question, scott, and while i believe that there was a devil on your shoulder whispering sweet nasties in your ear, i do not for a moment believe you would have let the man putt from your lie... for most good hearted disc golfers, we do very much love to win (oh, golly, do i love to win) but only if it feels good and clean... i bet it would have felt like a dirty win had you not spoken up.

i also wanted to address the post from lyounger, which a few other folk have made similar statements, about not speaking up re: rules infractions. in the kindest of ways possible, i call bullshit on y'all. in my first pdga event ever i was aware of another competitor miscounting her strokes. i let it slide. i really wanted her to like me and didn't want to come off as a jerk... thank goodness i beat her by two strokes or i would've really been kicking myself in the ass... and she would have felt pretty crappy, too, had she realized later that she'd miscounted. i've been called on miscounting, i've called myself on a falling putt and let my card know they darn well better stroke me next time, i've been warned for 30 seconds, approaching a lie improperly, improperly marking my disc and i have been grateful to the ladies on my card every damn time...

anyone who doesn't want to play a good, honest game according to the same exact rules and requirements as the rest of us can suck it... and also not play in pdga events 'cause obviously it's not their thing if they've got such a problem with rules.

... so, seriously, call people out, give them their warnings... teachable moments folks! and if someone on your card speaks up, support them, for crying in the bucket... it can be awkward and uncomfortable, but it is the right thing to do...

(ummm... can you tell i just passed the officials exam? haha!)

[Ol' Bob]

I would tell the person before they putted.

I was once the only person to see another's disc hit my bag. I kept my mouth shut (and it was a really crappy shot by them). It wasn't a tourney, and I really only play against myself (except for bag tags with my local yocals, that's for blood).

[Bryon_Harris]

I honestly would not even be worried about it if the scenario involved a gimme. That is a bit lax on the rules i know. If someone else in the group called it on the person I would grudgingly agree. Aside from that, if it did not change the game play, I would 95% of the time just pretend not to notice.

Exceptions I can think of would be if that person had acted like a jerk for much of the round. In that case I would use it as a chance to make a nice wise remark right as they were getting ready to throw ("giving me strokes that easy now?")

[Kris C]

I honestly think in a sanctioned event, I would let them putt and penalize them. It's not my job to stay on top of their game. In a casual round, I couldn't care less, but if you're going to play a sanctioned event, you're going to play by the rules.
Case in point: I played the Chump Challenge last year (my first sanctioned event) and on one of the temp holes there was a mando that I didn't know about. I don't think there was any sign or marker for it. I was the 2nd to tee off, and I followed the line the 1st guy threw. The 3rd guy said something like "Sucks to be you guys - you missed the mando" We both took our stroke and moved on - no whining.

[General Scales]

I wouldn't let them know. I have never thrown from the wrong lie. If you are not paying attention so much that you can't notice that the disc your putting from isn't yours, you deserve the penalty. I have no issues with being called on things if they are legit. What I have an issue with is people ganging up on one another in these situations. If you eff up and cause yourself a stroke penalty or two, that's on you. If you didn't do anything wrong but get called on it because two people are on a mission to ruin your day because you called something legit, then that's a problem.

Woo, that was a very long sentence. Pay attention, save yourself the strokes. Playing smart is just another way to better yourself. Let's face it, if you were in an NT, you'd be called on it. C, B and A tiers should be no different.

[Ol' Bob]

Being ADHD and lysdexic is a good reason for me to not play in tournaments. This is a kind of screw-up that comes naturally for me. Even if I'm paying attention, I might be paying it wrong.

[pdxdiscer]

Does this rule mean I can "accidentally" take my opponents lie (from the fairway, say), instead of my own (just off the fairway, no playable line) if I found an advantage in it?
Are other rules also in play that would prevent this?

Sam is correct:

803.10 Throwing From Another Player’s Lie:
A. A player who has thrown from another player’s lie shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning. The offending player shall complete the hole as if the other player’s lie were his or her own. No throws shall be replayed.

[The Brodys]

I think you did the right thing Scott. I am surprised that people would call that when both disc are under the basket. Teaching a lesson is one thing, letting someone get stroked so you can win is another. Help a brother out for goodness sakes.

[olydiscgolf]

Does this rule mean I can "accidentally" take my opponents lie (from the fairway, say), instead of my own (just off the fairway, no playable line) if I found an advantage in it?
Are other rules also in play that would prevent this?

I like it.... Im OB. My opponent is parked.....after everybody drive's, I run really fast (well as fast as a fat guy can run) and tap in from his spot for a four instead of.....

[Scott]

Does this rule mean I can "accidentally" take my opponents lie (from the fairway, say), instead of my own (just off the fairway, no playable line) if I found an advantage in it?
Are other rules also in play that would prevent this?

From the competition manual:
3.3 Player Misconduct
A. The PDGA adopts a strict policy of appropriate behavior and comments to the media. Any conduct deemed to be unprofessional is subject to disqualification by the Tournament Director, and may also be subject to further disciplinary actions from the PDGA.
B. Players are expected to behave in a professional and sportsmanlike manner while participating in a PDGA sanctioned event. Actions that are in violation of this conduct include but are not limited to:
(5) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play



Also noted in the competion manual, but without referencing any specific penalty:

"The Spirit of the Game
Disc golf is played, for the most part, without the supervision of a referee or umpire. The game relies on the integrity of the individual to show consideration for other players and to abide by the Rules. All players should conduct themselves in a disciplined manner, demonstrating courtesy and sportsmanship at all times, irrespective of how competitive they may be. This is the spirit of the game of disc golf."

[Bruce]

I'd let the poor bastard putt, then tell him it was a four stroke penalty just because he obviously doesn't know the rules...

[Bryon_Harris]

I think you did the right thing Scott. I am surprised that people would call that when both disc are under the basket. Teaching a lesson is one thing, letting someone get stroked so you can win is another. Help a brother out for goodness sakes.

I'm with you in the minority. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of it. A big part of why I play disc is because it makes for good friends. I'm not out to play police officer. Even in PDGA.

It's my job to make sure I follow the rules. Beyond that I just want everything to be fair. I really won't take action beyond those two things. Even then if I do think someone is getting an unfair advantage (ie. minor foot faults on upshots) I would much rather mention it to them privately than make a big thing over it. I think of it as an extra warning.

[The Brodys]

I'd let the poor bastard putt, then tell him it was a four stroke penalty just because he obviously doesn't know the rules...

Low down and dirty.:nono:

Yeah I just wagged my finger at you.

[Joshua Olmsted]

I'm with you in the minority. There is the letter of the law and the spirit of it. A big part of why I play disc is because it makes for good friends. I'm not out to play police officer. Even in PDGA.

It's my job to make sure I follow the rules. Beyond that I just want everything to be fair. I really won't take action beyond those two things. Even then if I do think someone is getting an unfair advantage (ie. minor foot faults on upshots) I would much rather mention it to them privately than make a big thing over it. I think of it as an extra warning.

I'm in the same camp, I don't believe that the game of disc golf will somehow get better if we all become really aggressive about calling minor rules infractions or try and start gaming the rules for an advantage. I've heard a few people mention ball golf as an example of rules policing to emulate, but I've played in numerous ball golf tournaments at around the same level of competitiveness as the C tier that Scott was originally referencing, and they generally have the same attitude, preferring to politely let people know if they are consistently making small infractions rather than try and be a rules cop about it.
Don't get me wrong, I like to follow all the rules, I've read the rule book, just this weekend I had to explain some rules about fair OB/casual water relief to players new to the PDGA. But I'd still prefer to maintain a fun atmosphere about the game, after all, I'm not out to make serious money here. My example from this weekend was when a player on my card who generally was great on all the rules, was consistently standing just off his marker for his 2-3 foot drop-ins, rather than call it on him, which would only force him to re-make his 2 footer without a penalty, after the hole I politely let him know, and he didn't have another infraction the rest of the round.

[Jim J]

I feel qualified to weigh in on this because I have actually thrown from the wrong lie, not once, but twice (many years separated from the two events).

The first time I had just put on a pair of yellow-tinted sunglasses, which messes up color differentiation. Second time I walked up to one of three white putters under the basket, placed my foot behind the wrong one and tapped in.

I was penalized both times.

Three points:

1) I deserved the penalties, and I felt bad forcing the others in my group to call me on this, because they clearly felt worse about it than I did.

2) I would warn someone who was about to throw from the wrong lie, just as I would warn someone who was about to walk into a patch of poison oak.

3) I would never expect others to prevent me from making this fundamental mistake. I am responsible for me.

[Flatroc]

I think when the disc is that close, good sportsmanship should rule over a rule.
Anything else prolly should get called because the ju-ju for the hole and the group was messed with and it could change the world.
I just hope if someone ever putts mine by mistake they make the putt.

[IH8U!!]

I like it.... Im OB. My opponent is parked.....after everybody drive's, I run really fast (well as fast as a fat guy can run) and tap in from his spot for a four instead of.....

Can I do this? Is there a rule against doing this?

[Jim J]

Can I do this? Is there a rule against doing this?

No
Yes (see above)

[Lyounger]

This in an interesting spectrum of responses...

I am a proponent of playing by the rules, spirit of the game and heathy competition. Ironically, this all culminates during tournament rounds and the balance of those factors depends so much on who you are carded with, how you respond and how they react. As I stated before, it has not worked out well for me when I have tried to point out infractions in tourney play.

I'm talking about moderate violations such as being 4 or more inches off your line of play to reach around an obstacle and being over a meter to the side or in front of your marker on a run up fairway drive...

Those things don't seem so big to some players till they attempt to watch their feet and try really hard to be on their mark. It takes effort and it can cost you strokes if you play correctly. My putting and upshots would definitely improve if I wasn't concerned about having clean feet.

I'm not talking about minor things like being half an inch off your lop when you are tapping in from under the basket.

I generally don't have much choice in who I play with in tourneys but I DO when it comes to practice rounds and casual play. I use those times to be much more vocal about the rules of the game - friendly dialog only - never an official warning or stroke. People who don't like it, don't choose to play with me. More often than not, the newer players are thankful for the rules clarifications in casual play.

Hopefully, it helps improve the sportsmanship when someone is actually playing sometime and they get called for something....or they may even feel more comfortable calling an infraction they see.

[CMC206]

So if someone putts your disc out and you were ready to take a par 3 is it a birdie?

[Scott]

So if someone putts your disc out and you were ready to take a par 3 is it a birdie?

No. Someone putting from your lie would not have an effect on your score. You would simply place your mark approximately where your disc was (in case it was picked up after the other player putted) and take your putt.

It only affects the player who played from the wrong lie. He would receive a two stroke penalty. He would not finish the hole from the correct lie.

[IH8U!!]

No
Yes (see above)
I know I was goofing. Honestly tho if u see some one getting ready to do that, say some thing
I am sure if u were going to make a penalty stroke you'd want some one to say some thing. I would think if u just let some one do that your probably losing and can't play well enough to win with your game. So u gotta catch them in penalty strokes.

[DexterHawk]

Good on you for trying to prevent the improper play...

I think the really important lesson here is that rules are there to keep things fair, not to be used to get an advantage over those you are playing with.

I play in open and I've seen many situations like this. Where players have to make decisions about rules that will affect other players scores... usually regarding OB... All too often I've seen people making calls that give them a competitive advantage. Unfortunately, most of us are all too susceptible to this. We are not used to be called on rules so when it happens we get emotionally involved and lose focus on the round. The most obvious example of this is when player A calls a foul on player B and then player B goes out of his way to make a call against player A.

It is really unfortunate that most people consider those who call fouls jerks. If we really want to have rules that keep the game fair we all need to enforce them and defend them.

Maybe a completely different issue is that the PDGA keeps adding and changing the rules which seems to invite confusion and frustration.