Dave Feldberg wants to "Fix" the basket's...

[Tek Zeus]

I would have to agree with him.:D Thanks Dave for sharing your input. I know the powers that be are listening.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LplBP9-28b0):shooting:

[jshrack]

I would have to disagree.
The Basket is the target, not the chains.

Using his basketball analogy.

You see a lot of basketball shots hit the square on the backboard and miss... the square isn't the target, just a reference point and assistance into your target.
I would also argue that the chains aren't the target, just a reference point and assistance into your real target, the basket below.

I have, on the other hand, seen a disc bounce out of the bottom of the basket... same issue they had with peach/apple baskets when basketball started.
Something to consider.

[Sausage Fingers]

I have, on the other hand, seen a disc bounce out of the bottom of the basket... same issue they had with peach/apple baskets when basketball started.
Something to consider.

So are advocating for a bottomless basket with some netting or something? Unlike basketball, when the disc goes in the basket there might not be a bunch of people standing underneath it to watch it go through. So you'd need some way to distinguish a shot that went through the basket from one the skipped up to the pole beneath the basket.

Still, interesting concept on what is and isn't the "real" target in disc golf.

:pirate:

[runnaman]

What if the bottom of the basket was made of netting, would that reduce bounce outs?

[HarrisonH]

What if the bottom of the basket was made of netting, would that reduce bounce outs?

Would also drastically reduce the longevity of baskets, and make them easy to seriously vandalize. Seems like a good idea for tourneys, though.

[Scott]

The baskets are fair, as long as they are the same for everybody.

[HarrisonH]

The baskets are fair, as long as they are the same for everybody.

I like the way you think.

[Ol' Bob]

If you hit the perfect line on a long putt in ball golf, but it comes in just a bit too fast, it's harder to sink and likely to jump off the rim. The longer disc putts are, the harder they are to keep in the basket. I've seen ace runs that could not have been more well placed, but they puked out. Generally speaking, the farther out you are, the more things can go wrong.

Baskets will probably improve some more, but longer shots will probably still have a harder time sticking than shorter ones.

[all2common]

Perhaps we should go to a point system. 1 point if you hit some metal on a putt, 2 if you hits chains, and 3 points if it goes in the basket. The number of strokes that it took you to get to your putt subtracts from your score on the hole. Really, I'm just goofing around. Dave missed his putt and he was not happy with the result. It's golf, the most frustrating sport I can think of.

[sillybizz]

Yes a Disc Golf putt is just like a Basketball shot going into a hoop. :rolleyes2:

If people are really confused about spit out putts and whether they count or not that really has nothing to do with the baskets. You can putt on a Golf (ball) green and hit the hole and "cup out" the same way. If you throw the disc with enough velocity and hit the chains high you should get a spit out, sorry Dave.

Listening to Dave's interviews is about as taxing as watching Nikko's hissy fits ... and hair.

Disc golf has bigger issues to deal with...

[Parks]

Nothing is ever Dave's fault. The only reason he ever loses is because of unfairness in the sport.

[JMan]

maybe a designated spot where the basket would be, and as you get close a member of the group stands on that spot and you putt to that person, if they catch it it's good...

[Bullseye]

maybe a designated spot where the basket would be, and as you get close a member of the group stands on that spot and you putt to that person, if they catch it it's good...

Oh dang. Sorry JMan, I done dropped your putt. Better luck next time!

[General Scales]

Why would he want to fix the baskets? Is he worried about disc golf basket over population? Seems to me he's taking a page out of good old Bob Barkers book.

[D.L.]

maybe a designated spot where the basket would be, and as you get close a member of the group stands on that spot and you putt to that person, if they catch it it's good...

Dibs on Stork! (http://www.frisbee-freestyle.de/charles_tips.html)

[LegoRules]

As long as everyone shoots at the same basket it seems fair to me.

Cindy :)

[Ol' Bob]

...it seems far to me.

I have the same problem.

==============================

I don't have to dress like this, do i?
http://www.frisbee-freestyle.de/images/charlestips_cover.jpg

[JMan]

Oh dang. Sorry JMan, I done dropped your putt. Better luck next time!

I know Jeff, it's alright; let's change it to just hitting the person, bring a little Guts Frisbee to DG.

Ol Bob, one of the best books ever published on the art of throwing plastic, and yes you must dress like that, but only for Super Class tourneys...

[Slick willie]

I like the Neanderthal man look to the book, I will check that one out where do I find it.

[Ol' Bob]

That Neanderthal invented the Frisbee, but before he knew what he'd done, he lost it in the tree ferns.

[JMan]

I like the Neanderthal man look to the book, I will check that one out where do I find it.

bought mine in '77, doubt they are any left out there, but you might try Amazon, eBay, Powells...

[Tim]

... and yes you must dress like that, but only for Super Class tourneys...

I wholeheartedly agree.

I also somewhat agree with Dave--the basket design needs improvement. In any given round of 4 people, I'll witness at least one putt that should have stayed in the basket but didn't, guaranteed.

[Bruce]

I have that book, and have had it since the first day I touched a disc, 12 years ago. Well worth the read.

[JMan]

Should have stayed? Should have stayed? Really? I SHOULD shoot better, can DF help me with that too? Maybe we should dig a hole in the ground and it has to slide in, oh, nevermind it may slide over...come on, everybody thinks the baskets should be different when they miss. Somehow it couldn't have anything to do with disc angle, speed, rotation, placement of hit... Do we need to find an external locus of control for every struggle we face in our lives...no wonder this country is on it's way to joining the third world, no one wants to do the work, or take responsibility for, well apparently even thier pursuit of a HOBBY...


Sorry, didn't mean to go off, but come on...my putting sucks lately, I'm not blaming the baskets, now I'm blaming Dave Feldberg...



not really Dave...

[Ol' Bob]

not really Dave...

You're that afraid of him?

[JMan]

^^^^ Heck no, now if it were Avery....

[Tim]

Should have stayed? Should have stayed? Really? I SHOULD shoot better, can DF help me with that too? Maybe we should dig a hole in the ground and it has to slide in, oh, nevermind it may slide over...come on, everybody thinks the baskets should be different when they miss. Somehow it couldn't have anything to do with disc angle, speed, rotation, placement of hit... Do we need to find an external locus of control for every struggle we face in our lives...no wonder this country is on it's way to joining the third world, no one wants to do the work, or take responsibility for, well apparently even thier pursuit of a HOBBY...


Sorry, didn't mean to go off, but come on...my putting sucks lately, I'm not blaming the baskets, now I'm blaming Dave Feldberg...



not really Dave...

I'm not speaking on my own behalf, though I've had plenty of putts bounce out that were dead on and at the right power. I've seen it happen across the board for all skill levels. Bouncing off the pole, being pushed back by the weight of the chains, bouncing off the rings at the bottom of the chains, bouncing off the bottom of the basket--I've seen it all happen. These are design flaws. That's why the designs of baskets have changed since Steady Ed's first prototype. They're better, but still far from perfect.

[JMan]

Well when you find perfection let me know. If it bounces off the pole, it was thrown too hard, chain weight pushing it away...the throw was not hard enough, bouncing off the bottom, it has to much down angle on the leading edge, how is this the basket's fault?

[Tim]

I'll be the first to admit when I have a bad putt, even when a bad putt manages to stay in. But I've seen plenty of "textbook" putts come out of the basket one way or another. And for what it's worth, Dave's putt in the video wasn't textbook.

This obviously wouldn't work in a park setting, but as far as a prototype goes, I think Cubby's got a good idea here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Splgdp_OUKo&feature=related

[NWDiscer]

This obviously wouldn't work in a park setting, but as far as a prototype goes, I think Cubby's got a good idea here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Splgdp_OUKo&feature=related


hmmm that is a cool entrapment device

[D.L.]

Hang bamboo rods from the chain supports or yellow band to just inside the rim? A one-way valve for discs- and not quite as hideous!~

[Jason Philips]

J-Man, I agree with you. I got no sympathy for missed putts. Everyone has the same chance with the same basket. Find me a basket that everyone fails a putt on or maybe even fifty percent and there begins a case to change one basket but not all.

[Wes Hansen]

A whole thread dedicated to one person's lack of accepting that anything is his fault?!
Great player, but I've heard so many instances where he blames anything but his own play it's just silly. Either that or I'm really a great player and the last decade of play have been the baskets fault.

[JMan]

I'm going with that Wes, it's been those damn baskets since 1975; let's go back to tone poles...you can't un-ring a tone pole...

[sillybizz]

it's just silly.

Hey don't blame me! ;)

[General Scales]

I'm going with that Wes, it's been those damn baskets since 1975; let's go back to tone poles...you can't un-ring a tone pole...

Yeah but tone poles expose people's lack of accuracy and we can't have that. It'd be madness if everyone took responsibility for their failures. That'd be a world too rational for any decent folk to live in.

It's best we leave the baskets the way they are. People are frightened by change. I had to eat a xanax and watch fox news after thinking about it.

Mmm complacency.

[Slick willie]

We will fix his chains. Lets supper glue them when he is first to start a round in a major, that will fix it. I can not believe a Pro at that level complains about equiptment.

[Ol' Bob]

I don't think we're going to sell the DDGAs on tone poles.

[jshrack]

I'm going with that Wes, it's been those damn baskets since 1975; let's go back to tone poles...you can't un-ring a tone pole...

If a tone pole is hit in the woods and nobody is there to hear it... Does it make a sound?

Anyway, back to my original point... what is the target?
If it is the chains, then hitting the chains should be a make... like a super wide tone pole.
If the basket is the target, maybe we should quit blaming the chains for not guiding the disc.

Personally, I like our current target.
I have had putts bounce off the chains, especially my 150g putters.
I have had putts go right through the chains.
I have had great putts miss and I have had horrible putts fall in.
I have had a lot more great putts go in though... and the majority of my crappy putts don't.

We are all shooting on the same contraption... I guess we all take a different perspective on what the target is.

[LJ Jubner]

The only reason why this story even gets any traction is because Dave said it. It's funny how many people want to trash someone just because of the perception of who they think that person is.

IE Kahn Singh syndrome: Hate for Hate sake

[Bruce]

http://tcpm.mrlazyinc.com/files/images/Funny%2022/haters_gonna_hate_pink_suit.jpg

[JMan]

Ah Jub, it's not about hate, or DF, it's about the thought process that insists baskets need to be improved because they don't accept a putt. Hey if they improve on the basket design it will change, as it has since the beginning. It's about not blaming the basket for a lapse of player ability, even on a shot by shot basis. Hey if the basket is to change for the betterment of the game...great. But, does it need to change just because DF, or any of the other hundreds of thousands of disc golfers miss a putt...hardly.

[Wes Hansen]

The only hate I've seen is Dave's hating to lose.
When someone disagrees with another person it's a pretty big jump to call it hate.
But then some folks only see things in black and white.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The fundamental flaw with the current basket design is that it is not radially symmetrical in the way the hole is in ball golf. Apologists for the current target design can't justify it and no modified chain pattern can likely resolve it.

[NextLevel]

Hey if the basket is to change for the betterment of the game...great. But, does it need to change just because DF, or any of the other hundreds of thousands of disc golfers miss a putt...hardly.

I agree with Dave 100%. The basket or "target" does somehow need changed for the BETTERMENT of the game. And furthermore, it DOES need to change because DF and many other disc golfers miss putts, period. It is by no means the basket's fault when a putt is missed, because of course there has to be a perfect way for the disc to fall into the basket and stay; however, it seems like a very intelligent idea for those of us that love this sport, to see it improve in any way possible.

I'm sure that it is a little discouraging for a spectator that may be interested in trying disc golf to watch a pro miss a putt that looks like it was in but then falls out.

A target that "retains" the disc once struck is the ultimate goal here . . on our way to lifting up our sport to be the best and most inviting it can be. I've only heard of a golf ball bouncing out of the hole once, and I've never heard of a basketball bouncing out of its hoop after going completely through; we should strive for a target device that provides the same security.

Not trying to argue with anyone, just stating my opinion and ideals.

-Derek :wink2:

[Rakoz]

I live at Lunchtime in Portland and thems some bad baskets (people are working on fixing those by the way)! You know when you go play at lunchtime you're going to miss 1-2 putts that would be in on most other courses... just like you know that your disc is going to roll down one of the hills if you don't lay it up just right, just like you know your disc is likely to go somewhere you don't want it to after you threw the PERFECT drive... straight into a tree. Everyone has to deal with the same basket, same hill, same tree.

I want to see better baskets at places like Lunchtime but most major courses have the proper baskets. If we're improving the baskets to the point that scores start dropping we're doing something a little wrong. Ball golf doesn't make bigger holes on the greens just to see better scores.

Interesting topic... sad it came up this way though.

[Ol' Bob]

In ball golf, when a long shot goes in, it's luck. Is that any different in disc golf? How many short putts with the right touch are robberies?

[NextLevel]

You know when you go play at lunchtime you're going to miss 1-2 putts that would be in on most other courses... just like you know that your disc is going to roll down one of the hills if you don't lay it up just right, just like you know your disc is likely to go somewhere you don't want it to after you threw the PERFECT drive... straight into a tree. Everyone has to deal with the same basket, same hill, same tree.

Lower scores at a course with better catching targets are to be expected, which is why people are looking to improve the baskets at Lunchtime, as you pointed out. This is why a Mach V costs more than a Mach II, obviously.

Intelligent and experienced players choose their plastic for each shot concerning certain criteria, along with their intended flight path. As an example, discs with flatter, broader edges roll away easier with little to no momentum. If you hit a tree, then it wasn't a PERFECT drive, either because you missed your intended line or because you simply didn't plan your line beyond 100-200 feet in front of you. AND, you are right: everyone does have to deal with the same basket (target) . . why not reward "everyone" with better catching targets. "Everyone" includes the player that started playing today and the Pro that started playing before the noob was born.

Dave Feldberg is a very intelligent player, which is what sets him above most. In conversation, he is constantly talking about the future of the sport . . this is just another great example, in my personal opinion.

-Derek :seeya:

[Wes Hansen]

There are two ways the thread topic here can be viewed.
In total- from DF, in response to a specific putt of his
or-
out of context, from DF, as if he had been randomly interviewed and asked about the state of DG baskets.

I see some responses here using one way, some another.
Mine was based on the video we were shown. I thought it sounded intelligent, but whiney.
Had I read it in an interview about DG, I would probably have lent it more credibility.
Baskets certainly aren't perfect. Tone poles are a more accurate gauge of putting ability, though they needed to be made slightly shorter.
And DF did express the need in an inclusive manner, which I liked.
I think Chuck came to the point. There are problems with the current target specs and design, but a better solution has yet to be offered. At least that's what I read.
I also bow to DF's accomplishments and contributions to the sport.
For me, it was all about context.

[Rakoz]

Yeah. Context probably did change my initial response to this topic. If the interview started with "Hey Dave, what do you think of current basket design" instead of with him missing a putt we'd probably look at this a little differently.

I'm still stuck with ball golf not making the hole bigger, basketball not making the hoop wider, and baseball not making the fields shorter. At some point we have to accept a standard and accept that luck sometimes frowns on you.

[NoLoPutts]

This is a funny thread. If you throw a perfect putt it is in. If it doesn't stay in it wasn't perfect. I don't see other way to look at it. You can hum and haw all you want but the proof is in the pudding.

[Sean Phillips]

I think the baskets need to be smaller and more dense. A smaller more dense basket would catch more consistently.

The current baskets catch really well 95% of the time. When that "questionable" putt spits it's unfortunate. The catch zone of our baskets has grown over the last few decades. The new Innova disc catchers, Discraft chainstars, and DGA mach 5's all have a larger catch zone than the original mach 2's.

[mine all mine]

I'm still stuck with ball golf not making the hole bigger, basketball not making the hoop wider, and baseball not making the fields shorter. At some point we have to accept a standard and accept that luck sometimes frowns on you.

Well, you kinda make the point that Feldberg might be talking about. In ball golf, the hole is the same size on every course in every country. A basketball rim is the same diameter in every arena in every country. I have played on so many different types of baskets that have huge differences in catch zones, chain configuration, chain weight, basket depth, length of chains...need I go on? Maybe the real issue here is we don't have a standard target that we play in competition.

[Ol' Bob]

Basket sellers are in competition with each other. PDGA is the sanctioning body. Both manufacturers and the PDGA have financial interests they will be looking out for. We'll see where this goes. Selling baskets is good for both.

Just a few years ago, I read up on approved disc parameters. At that time, the leading edge of the disc could be no sharper than 1/8th inch radius (obviously, this was from the mold line up, as the lower radius was usually a sharp right angle). When I saw Bosses and Katanas, I thought, "WTF?" I looked it up again and the spec for that radius had changed to 1/16th inch. The manufacturers needed some level of obsolescence to multiply sales, and PDGA obviously set that up for them. "Conspiracy theory," you say? Occam's Razor might not.

[NoLoPutts]

Well maybe it's time the PDGA lives up to the name. Professional. In other professional sports, like the ones mentioned here, basketball, golf, ect. Maybe there should be a standard. I know this sport is evolving. But give me a break. If your sport wants validation in the professional world. It need to act that way. They need to have a target standard for professional play. No if,and,or buts about it. If the corse does not have the approved baskets for that tourney. Then it should not be sanctioned. There is a reason the PGA does not hold professional tournaments at every corse.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Just a few years ago, I read up on approved disc parameters. At that time, the leading edge of the disc could be no sharper than 1/8th inch radius (obviously, this was from the mold line up, as the lower radius was usually a sharp right angle). When I saw Bosses and Katanas, I thought, "WTF?" I looked it up again and the spec for that radius had changed to 1/16th inch. The manufacturers needed some level of obsolescence to multiply sales, and PDGA obviously set that up for them.
The Rim Configuration is the ultimate determinant of how "sharp" a disc's leading edge can be and it can't fall below 26. You might be surprised that value has not changed for over 22 years. Look up the Rim Configuration value of the Eclipse and the year it was approved (far right column). http://www.pdga.com/documents/pdga-approved-discs-pdf Then compare that value of 26 with the Rim Config values for the Nuke, Valk, Boss and Katana, for example.

[Chuck Kennedy]

They need to have a target standard for professional play. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If the course does not have the approved baskets for that tourney, then it should not be sanctioned.
Fountain Hills, on display in the online TV coverage at the Memorial, didn't even have the same basket types for all 18 holes which is a requirement, at least on paper, for NT and higher events. Hard to not sanction an event where the purse is $50,000. But then the Memorial hasn't always been held to a few other professional guidelines for many years, presumably because it's big and popular.

[jshrack]

I think the baskets need to be smaller and more dense. A smaller more dense basket would catch more consistently.

The current baskets catch really well 95% of the time. When that "questionable" putt spits it's unfortunate. The catch zone of our baskets has grown over the last few decades. The new Innova disc catchers, Discraft chainstars, and DGA mach 5's all have a larger catch zone than the original mach 2's.

I can't disagree with this point... :wink2:

[Wes Hansen]

Too much variation in "regulation" baskets. Everyone without questionable baskets on their private/home course agree?
I don't know why the PDGA allows such basket variation. Perhaps they are in cahoots with the target manufacturers (ha ha), but I think it's just growing pains. They could have a very specific guideline for baskets, and there would still be several manufacturers.
PDGA just needs to tighten up the specs.
Whatever is decided.. I can miss or make a putt on any basket you can point me at.
beside... unless we all use the same spec putter no basket is going to treat each of our putts the same.
Solution; One type of basket and one type of putter.
And we all need to learn to use the same style putt.

[Bullseye Disc Golf.com]

The fundamental flaw with the current basket design is the metal ring at the base of the chains. The metal ring tends to "trampoline" the disc out of the basket. This is even more evident with baskets like we have at Pier Park that have added loose chains that aren't attached at all at the bottom.

The simple solution to this is to use a ring of chain at the base to secure the bottom of the basket chains. There are a couple of baskets with this setup at Dabney (hole 8 and 17?) and it is painfully obvious that those baskets catch significantly better. I have 2 baskets of my own, one with a ring at the base and one with a chain that I attached with S hooks myself. The basket with the chain at the base catches so much better that I don't even want to practice on it because it catches better than any basket on the courses, and I don't want to get used to it.

Using a ring to secure the chains at the base probably saves $2 in the overall cost of the basket. Probably $36 for an 18 hole course. Not really worth it when players in the open division are losing $100 or more in lost payouts for putts that spit out or spit through.

A chain ring placed at the base of the vertical chains in any basket significantly makes the basket catch way better than the standard design. It creates more of an irregular motion when impacted by a disc vs the springboard effect you get with a ring at the base. This is the easiest solution and the manufacturers should just suck it up and make this the industry standard.

[Chuck Kennedy]

If the PDGA created or an inventor patented a basket design that was turned over to the PDGA to become the "official" target, it would not have external chains because it likely could not be radially symmetrical. The members were clear that they wanted chains in the survey completed several years ago. http://www.pdga.com/pdga-documents/technical-standards/targets-member-survey So I don't see much hope in the short term for resolving this conflict to move toward establishing an official target design for our sport.

[Flatroc]

This is a funny thread. If you throw a perfect putt it is in. If it doesn't stay in it wasn't perfect. I don't see other way to look at it. You can hum and haw all you want but the proof is in the pudding.

OR, maybe the Proof is in the Putting! :biggrin2:
I think it is a ridiculous idea to even think we could/should change what we already have in regards to the hundreds of courses out there.
It is what it is.
How many of us complain when a chunder putt goes in?
Derek, Dave ....... suck it up and focus a wee bit more.:biggrin2:

[Ol' Bob]

When I'm doing putting practice, and I get one of those gift putts to stick, I consciously do not count it as a good shot and try to avoid doing it again. It just seems so plain to me. Everyone plays with the same baskets. Yes, if I make a good looking putt that pukes out, I get to bitch. That's all I get (along with the stroke). When I get the lucky one that goes in, I just do that stupid grin that ya gotta do.

[NextLevel]

lol, Yose . . . I just can't putt. There is no basket to blame for my lack of skill, period. I "focus" on a link, then throw my putter at a tree. haha

I figured that it wouldn't be long until you coined in, since I mentioned this to you yesterday. Nice chattin' with ya yesterday, btw.

-Derek

[dooley]

Too much variation in "regulation" baskets. Everyone without questionable baskets on their private/home course agree?
I don't know why the PDGA allows such basket variation. Perhaps they are in cahoots with the target manufacturers (ha ha), but I think it's just growing pains. They could have a very specific guideline for baskets, and there would still be several manufacturers.
PDGA just needs to tighten up the specs.
Whatever is decided.. I can miss or make a putt on any basket you can point me at.
beside... unless we all use the same spec putter no basket is going to treat each of our putts the same.
Solution; One type of basket and one type of putter.
And we all need to learn to use the same style putt.

i kind of enjoy having to adjust my putting to the baskets i am playing...just like weather/course conditions.I do think all A tier and Tour events should be on tight specs as far as teepads and basket design.Some leeway given for B tier events and let the C tiers and such continue to give us some variety in taste and design.I hope we can commercialize the professional side of the sport without losing the variety and personality of the game.

[jshrack]

The fundamental flaw with the current basket design is the metal ring at the base of the chains. The metal ring tends to "trampoline" the disc out of the basket. This is even more evident with baskets like we have at Pier Park that have added loose chains that aren't attached at all at the bottom.

The simple solution to this is to use a ring of chain at the base to secure the bottom of the basket chains. There are a couple of baskets with this setup at Dabney (hole 8 and 17?) and it is painfully obvious that those baskets catch significantly better. I have 2 baskets of my own, one with a ring at the base and one with a chain that I attached with S hooks myself. The basket with the chain at the base catches so much better that I don't even want to practice on it because it catches better than any basket on the courses, and I don't want to get used to it.

Using a ring to secure the chains at the base probably saves $2 in the overall cost of the basket. Probably $36 for an 18 hole course. Not really worth it when players in the open division are losing $100 or more in lost payouts for putts that spit out or spit through.

A chain ring placed at the base of the vertical chains in any basket significantly makes the basket catch way better than the standard design. It creates more of an irregular motion when impacted by a disc vs the springboard effect you get with a ring at the base. This is the easiest solution and the manufacturers should just suck it up and make this the industry standard.

I don't like this concept, 'Make them catch better!'
It seems that Putting is the easiest part of our game yet people want to Nerf it. (Make it all soft and squishy, for those out of the loop.)
I personally think that the speed of your putt should be more of a consideration during a money round than the design of a basket you are all sharing.

If the design of the basket is the major problem in your game... it is probably your brain affecting the putt well before the chains get a chance.
:whistler:

[cefire]

Standardize everything, baskets, basket heights, fairway patterns, teepads - remove the trees from the fairways and all creativity from the game so that 'bad luck' is eliminated and someday we can get it on TV...(rolls eyes) :)


OR, why not embrace the creativity, regional difference, and grassroots character that makes this game so unique. As one of my friends recently said, "everyone is trying to make this game like ball golf; but they play disc golf precisely because it isn't ball golf!"

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Standardize everything, baskets, basket heights, fairway patterns, teepads - remove the trees from the fairways and all creativity from the game so that 'bad luck' is eliminated and someday we can get it on TV...(rolls eyes) :)


OR, why not embrace the creativity, regional difference, and grassroots character that makes this game so unique. As one of my friends recently said, "everyone is trying to make this game like ball golf; but they play disc golf precisely because it isn't ball golf!"

AND shorten the fairways, make only ONE driver, approach, and putter disc. Everyone uses the same discs in the same weight. :whistler:

I completely agree cefire........this game would be boring if EVERY putt stuck. Some baskets don't catch the same as others, some fareways have fewer/more trees than others, some courses have water hazards. Learn to play with what the course gives you.

Bob

[Chuck Kennedy]

That point of view is just another reason this sport should probably revert to 100% amateur level competition with no pro level. Non-standardization of throwing and field components is just one of several elements that do not support having pro level competition.

[cefire]

This ^^^^

Except substitute "fun level competition" for "amateur level competition"

[WestsoundBT]

I got to this thread with some interest, as I've seen this discussion before on a few other forums. However, as I read through it, I get the same feeling I got from the other threads on this topic.

For those who work in a group work setting, or a family unit, or whatever, there has often been the mantra of "don't bring any problems without some kind of solutions" or the accompanying idea that "expounding on the problem... a solution it does not make"

I was still getting that vibe from this discussion as I sat here thinking there's a lot of negativity of current design, but not much solid options. I did see the part about a netting bottomed basket, but it wasn't until we got to the part about the chain gather vs a metal ring gather that I got something that sounded uplifting. I did see a hinting by something John Houck alluded to on another forum thread in regards to target design, but that the sport/culture wasn't ready for it yet. Maybe its our dedication to the basket/chains sound or image thats reflected in Chucks Kennedy's survey results.

It'll be tough to get a great design that could live in many of our parks if we go with alternate materials. I do like continually tweaking and improving the catch-ability of the metal and chains concept. I like the current baskets and think the appeal of the metal and chains has become integral to the experience.

But a better mousetrap does have the world knocking at your door... or welding shop.:wink2:

[Ol' Bob]

I think what we have is pretty much good enough to have fun. If I was so serious that it wasn't, I'd quit (or go postal).

[WestsoundBT]

http://web.mac.com/uwblt/WSDGA/Humour_files/DiscGolf%20shopping%20cart6x6.jpg

[General Scales]

I was under the impersonation that there was a minimum height that the bottom of basket had to be above the playing surface.

I am all for different baskets and their idiosyncrasies. I just want courses to not change basket types halfway through. Quite annoying when you start on mach fives and end with mach twos.

[Ol' Bob]

And some holes are longer or have more obstacles than others. All the baskets need to be the same? You want all Mach Vs with no trees within fifty feet, or all the trees at some regulation distance from the pin? Venues without the big bucks to buy 18 baskets at once should just forget about trying.

I have to admit I'm a bit amazed by some of the things on this thread. That includes DF.

[Kris C]

That point of view is just another reason this sport should probably revert to 100% amateur level competition with no pro level. Non-standardization of throwing and field components is just one of several elements that do not support having pro level competition.

I would think that the pros would be better at adapting to all of the different situations and challenges that are presented to them, including baskets. Or are they pros only because they throw farther and straighter than us ams?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Pros in other sports would also be more adept at adapting to changes in the equipment in their sports also. But you don't see that happening. For example, would you see each NBA arena having baskets of different diameter, different heights or different distances from the backboards?

[citizens arrest]

I think we should go back to the days when we played to a tree with ribbon on it. This is the concept that if you hit the target you hit the target. This eliminates all the bad break calls. If you hit the the metal you hit the metal:shooting:

[Flatroc]

I think we should go back to the days when we played to a tree with ribbon on it. This is the concept that if you hit the target you hit the target. This eliminates all the bad break calls. If you hit the the metal you hit the metal:shooting:

Some of us down south still play trees with ribbons.
Love of the game baby!

[Ol' Bob]

What in the Hell is in that shopping cart?

http://web.mac.com/uwblt/WSDGA/Humour_files/DiscGolf%20shopping%20cart6x6.jpg

[Denny]

I think what we have is pretty much good enough to have fun. If I was so serious that it wasn't, I'd quit (or go postal).

Some people have more fun the more serious it is. Not everyone is like you.

[gmason1]

Some people have more fun the more serious it is. Not everyone is like you.

So the great Steady Ed hedrick passes and Dave thinks he can just change the rules? Lets not forget who this sport was pioneered by and why he chose the specs he did. Although you think your the best , you dont own this sport Dave. I understand its just a suggestion but its sounds more like an excuse. how bout showing some respect for the man who created our great sport and continue to use the original design the way it was intended. Stop making excuses and go practice!

-G

[Denny]

So let's take DF out of the discussion.

I personally think improvements and innovations to our targets and discs are a good thing.

Think about the difference between an M14 practice basket and a Mach V

Which would you rather play on?

I think that bullseye really hit the nail on the head and I would love to see that become the standard, or at least the new trend.

It's not about fair and unfair because in tournaments we all have to play the same baskets.
I think it's more about the overall enjoyability of the game,
wouldn't you have more fun with fewer spit outs or maybe if that ace run actually stuck instead of 99% of the time spitting out
because it was going to fast and the target was too weak to catch it?

Just like in any sport as our athletes became stronger and faster our equipment is going to have to evolve with them.
Just think if leather helmets in football were still the standard, also they did not initially play on the basketball rim we know today.

[Denny]

I'm pro evolution :trophy:

[Adam Schneider]

Weird stuff happens. Deal with it. If it pisses you off that your high-speed 50-foot putt didn't stick, throw a better drive next time so you only have to make a slow 'n' easy 10-foot putt.

Overall, though, I'm like Ol' Bob on this topic: if it stops being fun, I'll stop playing. Tournaments don't look like fun, they look like work.

[WestsoundBT]

What in the Hell is in that shopping cart?

http://web.mac.com/uwblt/WSDGA/Humour_files/DiscGolf%20shopping%20cart6x6.jpg


Office chair upside down with dangling power cords. Yet it also doesn't demonstrate radial symmetry. What... haven't played the "back" back nine behind your local Staples store?...:laughing:

[Ol' Bob]

Office chair upside down with dangling power cords. Yet it also doesn't demonstrate radial symmetry. What... haven't played the "back" back nine behind your local Staples store?...:laughing:

Then it's not a three-balled octopus? I was worried about that.

[jshrack]

That point of view is just another reason this sport should probably revert to 100% amateur level competition with no pro level. Non-standardization of throwing and field components is just one of several elements that do not support having pro level competition.

There are many types of PRO level golf courses played on the PGA. Our sport could learn a couple things from ball golf... if not embrace all the stuffiness.
Anyway, they have shown that different styles of courses can be very fun for both the golfers and the spectators.
Strict standardization of the courses seems a bit overboard and silly.

Heck, when it comes to equipment, the PGA still outlaws certain types of putters, drivers, or balls in competition.
Our sport has similarly put in place a set of specifications which our throwing and target components must meet during competition.
I don't see any of these guidelines holding much weight in all amateur setting.

[Chuck Kennedy]

There are many types of PRO level golf courses played on the PGA. Our sport could learn a couple things from ball golf... if not embrace all the stuffiness. Anyway, they have shown that different styles of courses can be very fun for both the golfers and the spectators. Strict standardization of the courses seems a bit overboard and silly.
I wasn't talking about standardizing courses but the equipment on them, primarily baskets, how OB is marked, tee pads. All of those different ball golf courses have holes the same diameter.

[Minordiety]

I wasn't talking about standardizing courses but the equipment on them, primarily baskets, how OB is marked, tee pads. All of those different ball golf courses have holes the same diameter.

Oh come on Dave! Change the baskets. WTF? You missed a putt. Does this really mean that baskets need to be changed?

Or does this really mean you have to change the way you putt?

We all have putts that spit out. It's part of the freaking game. It happens. Get over it. Move on. It happens...

[Matt B.]

I love how someone posts a video from 2009 and people are all worked up to the point of addressing Feldberg as if he's reading this! The rest of the discussion about basket standardization is pretty interesting.

[cefire]

I personally think improvements and innovations to our targets and discs are a good thing.

Think about the difference between an M14 practice basket and a Mach V

Which would you rather play on?

I think that bullseye really hit the nail on the head and I would love to see that become the standard, or at least the new trend.

It's not about fair and unfair because in tournaments we all have to play the same baskets.
I think it's more about the overall enjoyability of the game,
wouldn't you have more fun with fewer spit outs or maybe if that ace run actually stuck instead of 99% of the time spitting out
because it was going to fast and the target was too weak to catch it?

Just like in any sport as our athletes became stronger and faster our equipment is going to have to evolve with them.
Just think if leather helmets in football were still the standard, also they did not initially play on the basketball rim we know today.


You are talking about two different things here:

1. Innovation
2. Standardization

I'm all for the continual innovation of the sport; improve baskets, make new creative designs - but don't mandate a standard that all baskets must be the same...

[Denny]

You are talking about two different things here:

1. Innovation
2. Standardization

I'm all for the continual innovation of the sport; improve baskets, make new creative designs - but don't mandate a standard that all baskets must be the same...

I believe one day.... there will be one basket to rule them all.

[Bruce]

I'm with Denny here. I've been reading this thread since it started without chiming in, but here goes. I feel like baskets on the professional level needs to be the same in tournament play (Major's and NT's especially.) It will bring consistency to our sport, which is needed in some aspects but perhaps not all.

I feel the same way about McIver every round I play there, 3 different styles of Discatchers. While it may not make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things, different styles of chain configurations, cage depth, etc. does make a difference in the mental game.

Just my feelings on things though, evolution of the sport is bound to happen, we can either be complacent and shoot down ideas left and right; or roll with the punches in hopes that things will become better, for everyone.

[Mayumoogy]

I am not sure that the basket needs to be fixed. I agree that if everyone shoots at the same basket then it is probably fair. Then there are the plastic options. I use an R-pro Rhyno, and never discs cut through, hitting the left side of the chains and having it roll out... thats another story.

However, baskets have evolved over the years, I remember when baskets had only the one set of chains, then the center chains were added. I think the next obvious step is smaller strings of chains, but more of the strings.

[The Ombudsman]

Baskets have ruined this sport

[JMan]

you can't un-ring a tone pole, counts on the weak side or strong

[The Course Bro]

.02

The best baskets on the market are heavy!!! Try picking up a Mach3 or 5 :b(like at Riverside and Stielly, right? :bricks: )and then do the same with a temp/portable like the M-14 or the DB-5. Much lighter. Especially the M-14. One of the reasons the permanent baskets cost so much is the materials are sold by weight. Building a basket isn't hard for a metal shop, but buying the bar stock and chains is a significant expense.
I have been screwing around with my old M-14 for a while now in the Lab.
The M-14 come with a single ring of chains.
1. Removed stock chains.
2. Replaced stock chains with thicker gauge chains (I didn't bust out the calipers but I tried to match the new chains to what's on the Mach3s at North Park).
2. Added inner chains. Inner chains are almost twice as heavy as outer chains. I putt harder than I should so I gave the basket some more mass dampening at the pole. I also set the lengths so the bottom ring of the outer chains are above the ring for the inner chains (have both sets of chains on the same ring makes no sense to me) so the sweet spot for the outer ring is wider as the chains can slide up and grab that waaay too far to the right/left putt still has a chance to grab metal but if the disc gets to the inner ring of chains, the inner ring on the inside chains slides up and picks up the weight of the outer chains as well to help slow the disc.
3. Add third set of chains that are attached to the same rings as the outer chains but run at 45 degrees to the pole. This set of chains is an attempt to a. close the hole between the two chain sets where they run parallel closer to the top of the basket (works pretty good but sometimes redirects the disc right the *&%^ out of the basket) and b. to force the disc into to go "nose down" if I hit the chains high. I've had and seen many seemingly perfect putts hit just a little high and flat/nose up suffer needless (and heartbreaking!!) rejection.

Now looking at Cubby's disc trap (I swear I've gone crabbing with that thing when I was a kid!!) maybe there something to an outer ring of chains that somehow mimic the trap aspect of Cubby's trap. I guess I want a basket that works like a roach "motel" trap (discs check in, they don't check out!!!). But just having a row of loose chains hanging seems weird.

Maybe adding some metal bars into one of the rows of chains would add some trapping rigidity w/o impeding the catching area.

The best baskets are just that: THE BEST BASKETS!!! But there is nothing in the PDGA specs about chains or entrapment elements so why not figure out if there is a way to make the Best Baskets Better.

If anyone else has done any experimenting, I would love to hear/see what you've done. I'll try and get some pics up of my modded basket.

My mods are designed to be additive to existing baskets. Converting a POS basket over to something better is not cheap- but it's cheaper than buying a new basket.

Cheers,
Bro

[The Course Bro]

One more random thought:
What about using bicycle chains? Just for one part of the overall entrapment structure. I've always been intrigued by the thought of chains that flexed on one axis but was rigid on the other.

Now another thought- what about one-way chains? The disc hits the basket, the chains do (more or less) their standard thing but the chains on the sides/back somehow offer more resistance going "the wrong way".

Now, someone has to figure out a way to do thing without pushing basket prices up to 600 bucks due to extra engineering/metal work/materials costs.

We are waiting.

[jonverbarg]

I'm a little late here but, as far as I see it...
We have a pdga standard for basket diameter. Why not have a standard for chain length, placement, top and bottom connections, and most important... gauge and weight of the chain.
If the chains are the same, the putts would be the same across the board.
I putt on Cool Shoes, DGA, and Innova on a regular basis. Granted I know how they are all going to catch, but it is definitely a factor.
The other part of the basket that should be standardized would be the top edge of the basket. Some have nubs around the top to stop a slide out, some don't.
In the meantime... I'm gonna keep practicing on the meanest basket i know... If I can stick it 90% of the time, I'll do just fine... That or I need to try putting from more than 15'. :headbang: