Online Registration

[Rideout]

When did the board decide to stop allowing other online registration outfits to have a link on the PDGA schedule?

I provide another choice to TD's in the northwest for their event's online registration with Northwest Sign-Ups. Although I'm still deeply in the red, I support both northwest disc golf events & players with this online reg business. I am able to provide online registration to non-sanctioned events and I am working on providing a very detailed "who's registered" list to the site within a couple months.

As a disc golfer who embraces the PDGA and also tries to find ways to keep northwest money in the northwest, I find this to be a slap in the face.

Am I wrong for feeling this way?

Should I be looking at this differently?


Mike Rideout

[Rideout]

I should have posted this as well...

In an email I received today from Karolyn O'Cull (PDGA office manager),

"At this time the Board of Directors has voted to not allow outside online registration links to be posted to the schedule anymore."

[ericedge]

From the pdga board meeting minutes of Jan. 11th..

Links to Non-PDGA Online Registration Sites – Nesbitt
Nesbitt reminded the board that it was decided at the fall summit that links to outside online registration
services would no longer be provided on the PDGA online event schedule beginning in 2011. The board
discussed whether the decision they made should be reconsidered but ultimately decided that they did not
want to readdress the topic.

I agree with you Mike. I think the pdga should attract TDs to use their online reg. service by being competitive, not by restricting the link. As it is now a player needs to click on the event and then click on the tourney website to find the online registration.

[Bullseye]

My response on the PDGA boards can be found: HERE (http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=1449009&postcount=18)

[Sean Phillips]

I got your back Mike. :shooting:

[snap7times]

That is correct what Hagerty said, limiting only PDGA sign up to the PDGA schedule is a kind of monopoly, however that is their choice to limit the workload of the people who set the schedule up with the links etc I would assume? However, PDGA makes money off the sanctioned event anyways so yes there should be an option and spread the wealth within the disc golf community. The PDGA's finances are doing sooooooooo well that there are several things that the PDGA could change to benefit the disc golf community instead of worrying about making more money in areas such as online registration control.... just my opinion...

[RonTheWhip]

Yikes,

What kills me is that I've run several events and used multiple online registration processes, and northwestsignup is by far the best service I've used. Titledisc was slow and dificult to comunicate with. PDGA was just plain aweful...sorry Breiner, but I expected a lot more. Mike has been great at communicating and has followed through with every promise he has made to me.

Support DG business in the NW, use NorthWestSignUp for your event!

Dion

[LJ Jubner]

I read the pDGA has a one year budget surplus Basically if we all quit they still have 12 months worth of our money to try and survive. As the norm most non profits have only a 90 day surplus.

[olydiscgolf]

I read the pDGA has a one year budget surplus Basically if we all quit they still have 12 months worth of our money to try and survive. As the norm most non profits have only a 90 day surplus.


I think its a bummer that the PDGA isn't advertising for competing online sign ups on their website because it directly affects a great supporter of NW disc golf (Rideout). But, I don't advertise my competition (who has better service and lower prices) on MY website! It wouldn't benefit my business.

I'm a big fan of the PDGA actually having money to work with. The more money they have, the more power they have to benefit disc golf.

[Chuck Kennedy]

There's only one click difference between PDGA and alternate online sign-up services since there are Event Info and Website links on the Tournament page that the TD can direct wherever they wish. The payment performance of some alternate online sign-up services has been spotty. The PDGA service has never defaulted and is not likely to but other services have missed or not made payments to TDs. As a TD, where do you trust that you'll get your money the service collects for you?

[Wes Hansen]

That seems like a very reasonable explanation... and with the one-click difference it still allows for alternate sign-up services to compete.

[Rideout]

I do not think the PDGA did anything wrong, but I do think they made a bad move. I will continue to support the PDGA the way I always have; I think the PDGA does a lot of good for the growth of competitive disc golf.

I like to think that when northwest TD’s contact me about their event’s online registration, they can feel comforted by the fact (in most cases) that they know the person on the other end of the phone or email. Most TD’s in the northwest know me by name and if they haven’t actually camped out in my backyard for an event at Steily, they probably know someone who has; therefore, they know where I live and can hunt me down if the funds aren’t delivered on time.

On two separate occasions in 2010, I was able to help my customer’s event get a few more registrations by keeping registration open until Friday evening and then hand delivering the event’s cash to the TD in the morning.

Northwest Sign-Ups also donated to several events in 2010 with either cash or tourney supplies.

Northwest Sign-Ups has not missed a payment.

Northwest Sign-Ups is a small-time/regional business looking to support players, courses, events, and the general growth of disc golf in the northwest. I’m not mad about the PDGA’s move to make other online registration outfits less desirable, but I am calling out to the TD’s in the northwest to seek me out and support Northwest Sign-Ups and you will see Northwest Sign-Ups support northwest disc golf.

Mike Rideout

[breiner]

This thread was brought to my attention (along with a related thread on the PDGA Discussion board). This seems a more appropriate place to answer questions. Why people post some of the things they do on an Association message board, I will never understand. Seems counter productive in many instances.

While we are limited in what we can do on www.pdga.com, I think you would be hard pressed to find many that would question the level of service, for the services and sites 'we' actually control / run.

I think if you look back through messages in **this** forum, you will find a record of incredibly good service. This is actually the only club related message board that I have ever posted on. I have personally provided instant feedback, stats, and answered questions -- when appropriate -- to help streamline some of your biggest and fastest filling events.

Most clubs and events will never even come close to requiring the level of service that some of your events require... which should read as a complement in many ways.

-----

I and we are both used below. I is me [Breiner], and we is my company.

In response to ryangwillim (Portland, OR) regarding the following post (found in the PDGA thread) :

"I will never use the PDGA signup process. It charges the players too much money (I was told that signing up for the Memorial was a $7 service fee this year?!), and I've heard nightmares from other TDs trying to get player's lists and other info from whomever runs it (I think Breiner?)."

1. "I will never use... It charges the players too much" -- While yourself and Peter Shive keep quoting the events with the HIGHEST ENTRY FEES, do you bother to notice that events like Ice Bowls, C-Tiers, and many B-Tiers average $2.50-4.00 [handling]. The handling fee is directly related to the average entry fee amount [for each event] (w/ a minimum of $2.00).

Working for FREE is not sustainable over time. I think 99.9% of people realize this. We (and other sign up services) loose money on almost all of the smaller events. It takes time to set them up, process entries, write checks, etc.. If you actually take the time to think about it closely, I think the question you are more likely to ask is HOW CAN WE PROVIDE THE SERVICE AT ALL / WHY WOULD WE WANT TO.
-- Answer: Because I saw a need, and WANTED to build a better system. I won't come close to breaking even for years. Don't really ever care if I do. That's my risk, and one I am willing to take -- largely b/c I just felt like doing it.
-- The vast majority of the 'handling fee' goes straight to the credit card companies. I paid VISA, MC, AMEX and DISCOVER almost $200,000.00 last year for the "right" to accept credit cards (company wide). Yep, that would all be PROFIT if everyone paid in cash or by check. Cash used to be king. Not any more. Credit rules the world.

2. Quit speculating, and simply go look up the information. "I was told... Memorial... $7.00..." -- It's not hard to look up
- PRO side $8.75
- AM side $4.75
They differ b/c the events have VERY DIFFERENT ENTRY FEES.

3. "I've heard nightmares" -- Send me the names of the Tournament Directors or have them call me. I find this incredibly hard to believe, but will gladly apologize to them if that's the way they feel. If they truly feel the way you have described, then I WANT THE FEEDBACK.
- This is the type of statement best avoided when trying to make a point. If the person(s) who supposedly feel slighted don't bring it to our attention, then effectively they (and those on their behalf [who have 'heard something through the grapevine'] have no legitimate right to complain.
- One of two things happens with this type of statement:
-- Either it never happened or simply was not big enough to mention [to me]
OR
-- It did happen, and the person complaining did NOTHING to help improve the system, service, situation [in/for the future].

I think you will find we are exceptionally good at meeting specific requests, fixing something that needs fixing (it could be something we have never even thought about fixing), and building in features that make everyones life easier.

BOTTOM LINE: If 'you [the collective]' don't / won't call me directly (I'm pretty easy to reach), then you give up your right to complain [IMO].

I think in reality, most [most means NOT 100% -- We will NEVER be able to please everyone] Tournament Directors will report service above and beyond -- at all hours (damn near 24 hours a day / 365 -- since 1998).

EXAMPLE: While we are on the East Coast, will still close WEST COAST events at or after 8pm PST (and most times after 11-12pm PST)... allowing players to sign up after work, etc.

Find anyone else working for the PDGA or YOU at 1-4am PST.

-----

From another post by Rideout...

"Northwest Sign-Ups is a small-time/regional business looking to support players, courses, events, and the general growth of disc golf in the northwest. I’m not mad about the PDGA’s move to make other online registration outfits less desirable, but I am calling out to the TD’s in the northwest to seek me out and support Northwest Sign-Ups and you will see Northwest Sign-Ups support northwest disc golf."

In general this is a productive statement (as opposed to the other example above). It's clear, and has a specific call to action.

"... they can feel comforted by the fact (in most cases) that they know the person on the other end of the phone or email."
- While I don't know every TD personally, I have certainly met a good majority of them (across the country) over the years. Comfort certainly helps with trust... an example of why LOCAL is sometimes better for some people.

"Northwest Sign-Ups has not missed a payment."
- I would expect no less. Reality is, this has not always been the case across other services (most of which effectively no longer exist). Large reason I chose to 'build a better service'.

"Northwest Sign-Ups also donated to several events in 2010 with either cash or tourney supplies."
- Very cool.

"...by keeping registration open until Friday evening and then hand delivering the event’s cash to the TD in the morning..."
- Great example of why LOCAL is sometimes better. Have done so locally myself. Not always feasible.

-----

Complaining is largely unproductive. Help build a BETTER system instead(regardless of which sign up system you use).

Anyone is welcome to give me a call anytime at 1-888-596-9347.

Breiner
1-888-596-9347

[snap7times]

Excellent post Breiner. So the main reason that the board of the PDGA decided to stop allowing other online services be linked directly to the schedule was because problems related to their services were taking place and it was impacting PDGA sanctioned tournaments in a bad way?

[Dave Pittman]

Fantastic post Todd, thanks for taking the time to do that! :yay:


I have handled registration for the last three Calapooia Classic’s and have used PDGAsignup online registrations for all three. My experience in dealing with Todd Breiner and his company has been as seamless as you could ask for. Any hiccups like duplicate player entries were resolved quickly the next day. Heck that’s the only hiccup I can think of… :shocked:
Thanks again Todd you provide a fantastic service to the PDGA and PDGA tournament TD’s. :trophy:


David

[Uhlman]

In my experience, competition builds better systems.

[Rebecca]

Great post Todd---the Eugene Celebration has used Todd for a few years. He has gone above and beyond. I've never had a problem. He even started my players list in an excel sheet for me last year.
I have always been able to call with any problems and Todd fixes them right away.

[RonTheWhip]

Thanks Breiner for taking the time to address the issue on our measley NW board, that does indeed mean a lot to the folks and players here.

I agree that competition for signups ulitmately will benefit the player in the long run. Here's to the best for each of these sign up companies :cheers:

[Rideout]

Just to make sure nobody thinks otherwise; I have never had a problem with the PDGA registration. I have used it before and I would use it again.

I don’t think anything “wrong” has been done, but I don’t like the fact that I no longer get to put an online reg icon next to the events on the PDGA schedule.

Breiner, you are very well spoken. I’d say that in general, your statements are also productive. Thank you for your professionalism.

I embrace competition and I, in no way, want to discredit any other online reg provider out there, including the PDGA’s.

Mike Rideout

[LJ Jubner]

Pay pal vs these others providers

Paypal cash in two days directly into my account. A date and time stamp that builds the wait list for me and the fees are $1.50-$2 Definitely a No Brainier

[Flash]

Pay pal vs these others providers

Paypal cash in two days directly into my account. A date and time stamp that builds the wait list for me and the fees are $1.50-$2 Definitely a No Brainier

That's true unless the entry fee is greater than 60 bucks! When you get to the NT or Majors level it is easy 2-3 times that amount.

[Altophish]

Excellent discussion. But I have a question...

Is the PDGA sign-up a service provided BY the PDGA with all sign up fees going TO the PDGA or is this Mr. Breiner's business?

[LJ Jubner]

That's true unless the entry fee is greater than 60 bucks! When you get to the NT or Majors level it is easy 2-3 times that amount.

It's actually a % of the fees. Even at $100 Paypal is still cheaper and a better paper trail.

[TreeLove]

Pay pal vs these others providers

Paypal cash in two days directly into my account. A date and time stamp that builds the wait list for me and the fees are $1.50-$2 Definitely a No Brainier

Don't you mean a No Breiner?

[breiner]

If this thread stays on topic, I will be happy to answer questions.

Ground rules for my participation:

1. No post here is intended as advertising against Northwest Sign-Ups -- Just answering questions. Nuff Said.

2. Stay on topic. No arguing, complaining, etc.. Start a new thread if you wish to do so. I will not be participating in said thread.

3. All statements are MY OPINION -- You don't have to agree with them.

Here are answers and opinions to a few of the questions that have been asked...

-----

@ snap7times Post #14

- I am not aware of any specific issue related directly to a company that had a 3rd party link, but the discussion of potential liability did come up in various stages of decision making. Depending on the event, there can be ALOT of money outstanding.

-----

@ Rebecca Post #17

- As a new feature this year, all tournaments larger than really small C-Tiers receive both an email notification, AND all pertinent data in Excel spreadsheet format; formatted to be cut & pasted into the PDGA Electronic TD Report.

This is in preparation for a forthcoming feature mentioned below.

-----

@ Rideout Post #19

- The decision to stop allowing 3rd party links was made when the PDGA decided to 'internalize' the signup system to better allow integration with their forthcoming 'Phase 2' of the new PDGA webiste.

Among other cool features coming, the biggest will be automatically updating the PDGA Registered Players List for the Tournament Director. While we (Breiner) have this capability now, we are waiting on a PDGA side re-write of the code that handles importing in the PDGA Admin section to allow incremental updates (ie 1 name at a time).

As mentioned in the reply to Rebecca above, we have already rolled out the posting of data in an Excel spreadsheet format to help ease the workload on Tournament Directors. In addition to providing information in a data format, the system auto checks PDGA #'s etc.., again saving Tournament Directors time related to tracking down mis-entered info.

For larger events (like The Memorial Championships, Beaver State Fling, and those who ASK), we handle the waitlist, track down members that are not current by a posted deadline, track down those who have not taken the Officials Test, etc.. We can handle just about anything if you ask nicely.

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@ LJ Jubner Post #20

- Remember, PayPal also charges a per transaction fee (same as other Credit Card providers).
- Someone (Tournament Director, Club, etc..) still has to set it up.

Assuming the view of 'other' sign up sites as 'competition' to www.pdgasignup.com...

True competition will most likely never come from a '3rd Party Site'... there's really not a profit incentive for someone to build a truly competitive site.

The actual 'competition' if you look at it that way will most certainly come from Club Websites using a content management system, and a payment service such as PayPal. PayPal, and similar services (Google Checkout, Amazon Payments, etc..) have made it pretty easy for 'anyone' to accept credit cards. The tools for integrating their services are getting better and better each year.

The PDGA system will grow; but it will grow because of the SERVICE BEING PROVIDED (ie.. Labor, Features, Tournament Director Tools, etc..)... not just because we can process credit cards.

PayPal offers a great service and most certainly should not be discounted. I have PayPal integrated into various shopping carts, and use their services on a daily basis.

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@ Flash Post #21

- True. Regardless of which credit card provider you use, they charge a percentage of the transaction, PLUS a per transaction fee, PLUS various penalties for non compliance (such as when a CVV Code is not supplied, a billing Zip Code does not match, etc..). The fees are quite frankly more than a bit ridiculous considering the transactions are completely automated. This is a major reason why there are some serious Credit Card Charge reforms going on in Australia right now (imposing limitations on how much the CC companies can charge merchants).

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@ Altophish Post #22

- It's www.pdgasignup.com = their system.

We prototyped the system as www.discgolfsignup.com for 3 years prior to the PDGA system [internal] launch.

Breiner handles the processing for the PDGA similar to processing memberships, fulfillment, etc...

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@ LJ Jubner Post #23

If you like PayPal better, then use PayPal. Use the system or site that best meets your needs.

It is absolutely TRUE that you can simply process a credit card payment cheaper; you (as the Tournament Director), still have to handle everything else after that.

Depending on the Sign Up service that you use, various aspects of processing are taken care of on your behalf, thus hopefully making your life a bit easier. To provide these services, a portion of the 'Handling Fee' is just that, a 'Service Charge'.

Currently, as far as I know, every sign up site passes this 'Handling Fee' on to the Player in the form of a 'Convenience Fee' -- maybe that will change someday under a different model.

As an example, an advertising supported model; which is VERY HARD to justify, b/c signing up for an event is a 'destination service' -- People arrive, do what they need to do, and leave. There is almost no way for an advertiser to get any real benefit out of it. Tournament Directors are all too familiar with this model. There are certainly some very good hearted 'sponsors' out there, but most of the time, they are just that -- good hearted.

-----

Breiner
1-888-596-9347

[LJ Jubner]

If this thread stays on topic, I will be happy to answer questions.

Ground rules for my participation:

1. No post here is intended as advertising against Northwest Sign-Ups -- Just answering questions. Nuff Said.

2. Stay on topic. No arguing, complaining, etc.. Start a new thread if you wish to do so. I will not be participating in said thread.

3. All statements are MY OPINION -- You don't have to agree with them.

Here are answers and opinions to a few of the questions that have been asked...

@ LJ Jubner Post #20

- Remember, PayPal also charges a per transaction fee (same as other Credit Card providers).
- Someone (Tournament Director, Club, etc..) still has to set it up.

Assuming the view of 'other' sign up sites as 'competition' to www.pdgasignup.com...

True competition will most likely never come from a '3rd Party Site'... there's really not a profit incentive for someone to build a truly competitive site.

The actual 'competition' if you look at it that way will most certainly come from Club Websites using a content management system, and a payment service such as PayPal. PayPal, and similar services (Google Checkout, Amazon Payments, etc..) have made it pretty easy for 'anyone' to accept credit cards. The tools for integrating their services are getting better and better each year.

The PDGA system will grow; but it will grow because of the SERVICE BEING PROVIDED (ie.. Labor, Features, Tournament Director Tools, etc..)... not just because we can process credit cards.

PayPal offers a great service and most certainly should not be discounted. I have PayPal integrated into various shopping carts, and use their services on a daily basis.

-----

@ LJ Jubner Post #23

If you like PayPal better, then use PayPal. Use the system or site that best meets your needs.

It is absolutely TRUE that you can simply process a credit card payment cheaper; you (as the Tournament Director), still have to handle everything else after that.

Depending on the Sign Up service that you use, various aspects of processing are taken care of on your behalf, thus hopefully making your life a bit easier. To provide these services, a portion of the 'Handling Fee' is just that, a 'Service Charge'.

Currently, as far as I know, every sign up site passes this 'Handling Fee' on to the Player in the form of a 'Convenience Fee' -- maybe that will change someday under a different model.

As an example, an advertising supported model; which is VERY HARD to justify, b/c signing up for an event is a 'destination service' -- People arrive, do what they need to do, and leave. There is almost no way for an advertiser to get any real benefit out of it. Tournament Directors are all too familiar with this model. There are certainly some very good hearted 'sponsors' out there, but most of the time, they are just that -- good hearted.

-----

Breiner
1-888-596-9347

I am curious
Are you an extension of the pDGA or a separate company?
If separate how did you acquire the contract with the pDGA?
If part of the pDGA doesn't the organization already do what you are doing for a fee?

As a 10+ year TD I made the decision to go with (at the time the only way to take online payments) PayPal. I suppose that doing as you stated "everything else" is just part of the TD game. Personally I am use to relying on myself to make sure things get done. Yes, I do realize growing pains are bound to occur but I personally don't think I should add $3+ to a players entry fee for the convenience of all that you offer and that I am willing to perform as you so aptly put it as good hearted.

Side note Good luck with the thin skinned rules you hope to use. As a TD I would hope that If I chose to use your service your actual site feedback is less confrontational. After all If you piss them off they don't attend my event.

[Wobbly Bob]

I used to use Marshall Street online registration rather than PDGA. :pullhair: After many ignored phone calls, receiving sign-ups that were 6-7 days old and having to wait for my money I eventually went to PDGA Sign-Up. :) I have not had a problem with my on-line registration since that fateful day. Todd has always been there when I've called him. Made changes when "I" needed them made, and most important always been on time concerning the check. :D

You can say what you want, but as a five year TD, I'll put my money on PDGA SIGN-UP every time. :posting:

[Altophish]

Thanks for the answer and the work you've done on the system.

[Wes Hansen]

Interesting posts.
I wonder if JJ will get an answer on whether Breiner is speaking for the PDGA (I hope the PDGA doesn't condone addressing their "owners" in such a fashion) and whether the registration system is the PDGA's or Breiner's.
Makes a HUGE difference IMO.
If the current system is "outsourced" to Breiner, then I too would be interested in how the process worked determining his receiving the contract.
Based on one post alone I'd be inclined to support Rideout's system.
Hopefully, I posted this without breaking Breiner's rules of this thread!

[breiner]

@ LJ Jubner Post #26 | @ Wes Hansen Post #29

Previously answered:

- Separate company. All statements are MY OPINION.
- It's www.pdgasignup.com = their system.

- This thread was brought to my attention... I chose to answer a few questions here, as I felt it was inappropriate to answer them on the PDGA forum; as simple questions often turn into unproductive and sometimes destructive threads (especially on an Association website).

As an example: The PDGA Discussion thread started with a simple question: 'How do you do this...'; to which a simple answer was given. Then the unproductive and destructive element ensued.

I think every member of an association [a member by choice] has a responsibility to put thought into their posts. Every post in theory should be authored assuming a non-member will be reading it.

--

I filled out the RFP for fulfillment of membership services.

--

"... and that I am willing to perform as you so aptly put it as good hearted."

I believe you have misinterpreted my 'example' in the last two paragraphs.

--

My 'rules' put forth do not apply to anyone but myself. Read another way, they simply state: *I* have no interest in arguing, defending, bashing, etc. There is no hint of confrontation; non should be inferred.

Breiner
1-888-596-9347

[snap7times]

Breiner gets the job done... and now he says phase 2 of the pdga will include the TD updating online with the excel sheet and so forth, thatttt is worth the money as it takes hours to do it and some TD's take forever to even do it so this will create more consistency in tournament registration updates.

[Wog]

I'm not sure if the policy has changed but I have noticed that several events have listed 4discgolf.com (http://www.4discgolf.com) as the tournament web site and the PDGA has allowed that.

I have asked for a formal clarification on the current agreement covering online registration with the PDGA and hope to find out when/if the agreement is set to renew.

Personally I would like to see multiple services allowed by the PDGA rather than one service given an exclusive arrangement. However, should the PDGA decide they would like to continue an exclusive arrangement with a business I would hope that 4DiscGolf.com (http://www.4discgolf.com/about) would be considered a worthy choice by the PDGA board of directors.

[Chuck Kennedy]

I believe the PDGA planned to switch to another exclusive vendor to provide online tournament registration effective Jan 1.

[Wog]

According to the minutes from their last board meeting they are indeed creating an interface with Disc Golf Scene. To what extent that interface will give DGS exclusive status with the PDGA for online registration is not mentioned. I love DGS and think they do a great job, however, I don't think the PDGA should give one vendor exclusive priority and allow for competition among the various online registration services.

The October minutes also talk about bringing online registration in-house. I'm not sure how good an idea that is based on the current state of the web site.

Source: http://www.pdga.com/board-minutes