Official Announcement: CSI to split weekends

[LJ Jubner]

#March 19-20 AM Weekend
includes AM age protected Ladies

*March 26-27 Pro Weekend
includes AM age protected Ladies

C tier to start. If I get 60 Open or 72 Am's I would bump the respective weekend up to B

RSVP for previous contestants
Released Mon January 10th
Deadline Wed Feb 15th (received payment)

Open registration starts on Fri Feb 18th
Fields limited to 72

If you want to be included in the Open registration period send an email to
jubjubdiscgolfer@hotmail.com

#Am's three rounds of 18 (9 exhibition skins tbd)

*Pro weekend will be two rounds on Sat Shot gun start
Then a cut (of sorts) will be made. If you are more than say 7 stokes of the lead you will play really early on Sun with a shotgun start. If you are within the margin you will get a tee time.

Times to be posted here

This should make it more spectator friendly knowing when the leaders are going to play on Sunday.

[LJ Jubner]

The first 100 invites went out today. Watch your inbox. If you don't get one let me know at jubjubdiscgolfer@hotmail.com

[JR Stengele]

What do you have to do to qualify? Is it based on rating?

[LJ Jubner]

It's a legacy thing Jonny
Here are the links to the flyer's
http://www.discgolfpugetsound.com/New_Folder/Site%20Pages/news.htm

CSI is a way to celebrate Dan's life and the effort he and others put in to begin what we now know and love "The Tac"

I saw Dan the Wed before he died at Juel. When I heard he had passed I decided I wanted to run something in his honor.The first year I just put it out to his friends and People he admired like his Pender pals Jonny Mac, Dave Ross, Glen O, and locals like Kilmer, Papa , ED D, Marty, were all invited.

As it grew (and I kept messing with it) Some were able to attend other were not. Others have inquired about getting in, did and have been sold participants ever since. I have never turned anyone away on Sat morning and we usually add 8-15 new legacies every year. I have always had a strong East side ratio and The Big Sky connection has been profitable for all of us from day one.

Anyway, If anyone wants an invite send me an email and I will see you get on the Feb 16th batch.

Disclaimer:
I do not have email addresses for everyone so I will start winding up the phone tree ASAP
Notice:
When you see the Name listed nationally that is your confirmation of paid entry

[killa]

cool "invitation" video, Jub! I can't believe someone actually caught Feldberg's amazing putt on 16... one of the most prominent birdies in my disc golf memories.

also, another cyber-slap on the back for splitting the weekends. I have no doubt that it will effect hoards of caddies and other volunteers out there for both events. for my part, if none of the pros on my short list accept my caddy services, I will extend an open invitation on this forum some time next month.

cheers!
- Kyle

[LJ Jubner]

And were off. Got my first three pre regs yesterday
two Am's Ace Berg and Robert Brown
and
One Open Andy Farris

I am hoping the TDG schedule can be worked out on the Am weekend. Play on a TDG team and want to play the Am weekend advise your captain of your wishes.

Looks like CSI will once again be the Kick off for the 2011 INWS

[CMC206]

Yo,

Put me in the list! This is my RSVP....

CMC

Listen to www.rewindb.com for DG info..:D

[LJ Jubner]

Sponsors for the 2011 CSI are (so far anyway)

Big Sky Brewery
Disc Golf Depot
2011 INWS
J & J Plastic
Lilac City Open June 4-5
Zoo Town Open June 18-19
Canadian Disc Golf Championships June 25-26
7th Annual Jet Wash Open August 20-21
Pagliacci Pizza
Sushiman in Issaquah
Gordy's Sichuan Cafe, Spokane
Four Mound Disc Golf Reserve
Stimpi Ridge
Spokane Disc Golf Association
Aurora Lawnmower
Corning Wear Screen Printing

I want to thank all the other events that have decided to sponsor this year.

LCO is always "the best In State event" of the season

Zoo Town is definitely worth the drive. A tier and the traveling Pro's makes it "a must make of the summer"

I am really happy that the Canadian Disc Golf Championships is also on board. The Kamloops club does an outstanding job and will prove that Canadians really now how to "raise the roof".

CSI and Jet Wash are your only chances to play ALL your rounds at SeaTac.

These are just the current sponsors each of which is worthy of your support More to come

[LJ Jubner]

It's official CSI will again be the kick off event for the 2011 Inland Northwest Series


http://www.nwdiscgolfnews.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6530

[LJ Jubner]

Both weekends are sanctioned and online. I will start the postings in the next couple of days. I have had some phone calls a couple of things to remember

Please speak slowly especially when you are giving a return number and don't forget to tell me who you are.

Your payment insures your entry

[LJ Jubner]

Sanctioning approved

Current regestration uploaded

[LJ Jubner]

Next national update 2/9

[LJ Jubner]

update complete

[LJ Jubner]

I have been monkeying around with the Shotgun cut and the subsequent tee times
Assuming

72 total players 30 make the cut (20 Open Men)
the Shot Gun starts at 8 AM
either 3'' (14 holes) or 4's (11 holes)
3.5 hrs to play



10:14 Grand Masters 4 some
10:21 Masters 4 some
10:28 Last Open 3 some
10:35 Next last Open 3 some
10:42 Next open 3 some
10:49 Next Open 3 some
11:00 Ladies (depends on how many enter but at least 3)
11:10 2nd group Open 4 some
11:20 Leader Card 4 some
11:30
11:40


I am also thinking about starting the times at Hole #8
if this is the case the shotgun will start on 14-9

[LJ Jubner]

It's official CSI RSVP period has ended.

General Open Registration is now being secured.

National site Updated regularly. See your name nationally then your in.


Additional sponsorships from players

Nancy and Jack Lorber
Kyle Sutherland
Andy Faris

[LJ Jubner]

I got a "both weeks" player today now that's dedication

[Nathan]

hmmmmm... I've been thinking about doing that also.

[CMC206]

Does Sea-Tac play Par 54 in Tournaments? I just noticed that it says Par 60 on DG review.

[REDFIVE]

Does Sea-Tac play Par 54 in Tournaments? I just noticed that it says Par 60 on DG review.

It plays as a 54 at all times.

[olydiscgolf]

It plays as a 54 at all times.

Par is 54.

SSA= 56+/-.

[LJ Jubner]

It's 54

The question of what DGCR states is an interesting one, DGCR is like wikipedia. Any tom dick or silly can change par just on a whim

[Bullseye]

It's 54

The question of what DGCR states is an interesting one, DGCR is like wikipedia. Any tom dick or silly can change par just on a whim

Which is equally as absurd as calling Sea-Tac a par-54 course, because it clearly is not.

[cefire]

But it makes the course "harder", somehow...I think...:biggrin2:

[sillybizz]

Benson State Park is the hardest course in the world because I play it as par 1/2 a stroke.

[CMC206]

Dang!

[TreeLove]

Does Sea-Tac play Par 54 in Tournaments? I just noticed that it says Par 60 on DG review.

Will you play the course differently if the par is a 60?

[LJ Jubner]

Which is equally as absurd as calling Sea-Tac a par-54 course, because it clearly is not.

Par is a goal that most players will never realize at SeaTac. When it was designed 18 3's was the norm. If you ask me 54 is a great target score because it's what a 1000 rated player should shoot on AVG. there.

Ball golf does not change par from skill level to skill level (Ladies to Men yes normally it's only one or two strokes) It's done with shorter tees. Now with Blue Lake because it was designed with 3-4-5's Par should be whatever it was designed too. Not what some silly come lately thinks it should be after the fact.

[sillybizz]

http://rlv.zcache.com/jub_jubs_mom_tshirt-p235489134032572780t5hl_400.jpg

[olydiscgolf]

Par is a goal that most players will never realize at SeaTac. When it was designed 18 3's was the norm. If you ask me 54 is a great target score because it's what a 1000 rated player should shoot on AVG. there.

Ball golf does not change par from skill level to skill level (Ladies to Men yes normally it's only one or two strokes) It's done with shorter tees. Now with Blue Lake because it was designed with 3-4-5's Par should be whatever it was designed too. Not what some silly come lately thinks it should be after the fact.

Actually Jub, a 1000 rated player should shoot a 56-57 there. The SSA is around 56-57.

I love how this thread is turning into the standard issue "PAR" debate!

To take us way off topic, if your looking for par 4's and 5's.....Come help dig holes for the Shelton Springs DGC! Saturday the 26th at 10:00 AM. Bring a shovel and rock bar if you have one.

[CMC206]

Personally I don't really care. I just want to play the course the right way. I do think a couple of the holes on the back nine should be par 4's. Just sayin.. =) CMC

[LJ Jubner]

http://rlv.zcache.com/jub_jubs_mom_tshirt-p235489134032572780t5hl_400.jpg

It's nice to see you found a bra that fits properly Silly

[LJ Jubner]

Open weekend updated 2nd "step up iron arm" particpant

[SPIDER-DAN]

I agree with treelove..........i play seatac to the best of my ability no matter what the par is. My best score at seatac is par (54) and i did it twice...........i was pretty stoked. If i shot that on the amatuer course at fort steilacoom i would cry and go home and not play disc golf for months or until the anti-depressants wore off. If i go to seatac i want to shoot under +5..........if i go to play fort steilacoom amatuer i want to shoot -10 or better.

Just step up to the challenge.........not take the path of least resistance.

[Skookum]

Actually Jub, a 1000 rated player should shoot a 56-57 there. The SSA is around 56-57.

I love how this thread is turning into the standard issue "PAR" debate!

To take us way off topic, if your looking for par 4's and 5's.....Come help dig holes for the Shelton Springs DGC! Saturday the 26th at 10:00 AM. Bring a shovel and rock bar if you have one.

Team Disc golf put the SSA at 58.23 for the first round and 58.51 for the second last weekend.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!!! WHAT THATS SAYS ABOUT PAR!!!! IT MEANS THAT CHRIS IS RIGHT....

...about Shelton Springs DGC! Saturday the 26th at 10:00 AM. Bring a shovel and rock bar if you have one.

oh and a little birdie told me we should have our locks tomorrow. Lock plus prepoured anchors means we just need 19 holes dug and we are playing golf.

[Skookum]

Oh and I still believe "par" is not something you set. You don't just look at a 200ft hole in an open field a decide its a par 5. Holes and course should be built so the average strokes from your relative tee pad creates the desired par. I.e. if Seatac was designed to be a par 54 from what I believe to be Blue(SSA 50-54) tee pads then the course needs to be adjusted because there is more than enough proof that the mark has been missed. Personally I think the space warrants the use of par 4s, maybe find a way to stretch it to a par 60, I would prefer to see that over any shorting.

Courses should be as the saying goes "built to par" and we should all go play with the intention of being better than par, after all, who's goal is to be just average?

[LJ Jubner]

As course designers now The MC Boys can design and set par to whatever level they want. I will show up, pay, play and whine about how poorly I played not about how par is all screwed up.

Oh and I still believe "par" is not something you set. You don't just look at a 200ft hole in an open field a decide its a par 5. Holes and course should be built so the average strokes from your relative tee pad creates the desired par. I.e. if Seatac was designed to be a par 54 from what I believe to be Blue(SSA 50-54) tee pads then the course needs to be adjusted because there is more than enough proof that the mark has been missed. Personally I think the space warrants the use of par 4s, maybe find a way to stretch it to a par 60, I would prefer to see that over any shorting.

Courses should be as the saying goes "built to par" and we should all go play with the intention of being better than par, after all, who's goal is to be just average?

"Par has been missed"
thats a good one maybe if you threw farther or putted better or maybe just...

There is a huge difference between tournament stroke play and handicapped stroke play. The real problem is the stupid rating debate. By using a handicap
you are already trying to level the field artificially
to make your series more attractive competition wise
not skill driven like it should be.


I find it interesting that at any Ball golf course you just show up, pay and play. NO mention of what my par should or should not be. Want to have some fun
Go into any Golf Pro shop and tell them par at their course is too low for your game. Know what they would say to you? Maybe some lessons or the pitch and putt around the corner is better suited for your skills.
FYI
In Ball golf the average player is 18 over
80% of all ball golfers will never ever break par
Realistic goals most want to just break 80


In DG we whine about par. Raise the par at the Tac and you will see a 1200 rated round.

Like Dan said "my personal best is my goal" If it's better than par great if not thats great too. It's still my personal best.

[Bullseye]

In DG we whine about par. Raise the par at the Tac and you will see a 1200 rated round.

I could be wrong here, but I don't think what you "claim" par to be has any effect on ratings whatsoever.

I was curious about this one night when I was posting the results for one of my events. As a test, I submitted the results with an incorrect course par, checked the ratings, then resubmitted the results with the correct par and there was no change. I'd love to hear Chuck Kennedy's feedback on this subject.

[cefire]

You are correct Bullseye - I could care less about beating 'par' at a course and I've already beat "par" at the tac so it isn't an attempt to 'dumb it down' as the argument is often made. What is lost in this whole discussion is that par is assigned on an individual hole level! Likewise, 'par' has no effect on ratings, for reasons that should be obvious to folks who care to look into it (ratings compare players to players more than players to course).

There seems to be a kind of magical thinking that creating a realistic par set by individual holes would make courses somehow easier - if anyone could explain this to me, I'd be happy to listen and try to understand exactly how this miracle occurs :) Perhaps discs fly further when par is higher or maybe more trees sprout up when par is lowered?

If we want the Tac at its toughest, why not call it par 52 or 50 - then it will become much harder.

On the upside, it (par) doesn't matter for much (only 1 small PDGA rule) so the dream will live on for some! :)

BTW - If anyone is interested in some good discussion on course design and a lot about how it is much more than putting in tees and baskets, check out this page: http://www.houckdesign.com/course_design_articles.html



Paging Chuck Kennedy or John Houck...

[Wes Hansen]

It's been a long time since I tried to follow a JJ thread.
Par and ratings have nothing to do with each other.
I can find no logic in his points of view.
Perhaps someone with the ability to interpret Jubisms understands what he means...
or why he's saying it.

[sillybizz]

I'm going to hold a tournament at Ferguson Park (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=1256&mode=hi) and then set the "par" at 5 on each hole, that way everyone who plays it will get a rating of at least 1800. :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:

[dan mc]

Not sure what the arguement is. If it takes you 64 throws to get around seatac it still took 64 stroke regardless of the course being par 54 or 60 if ssa is 55 you still threw 9 strokes over the SSA. so the par doesn't matter more than +4 sounds way better than +10

[D.L.]

Ratings are a derivative function, par is not. Setting ST at par 72 would not change the ratings.

This inanity calls for a lunk, http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf
and the lunk has provided a link. :jumpspin:

This seems to suggest par means different things to different people.
Just like in bolf. The members play it as a par 5, but for the pros it is a par 4.

No. 7: 447 yards, PAR-4 ("Briars," 4.118, 7th): A PAR-5 for Ridgewood members known as the Cemetery Hole because George Washington Memorial Park borders it, it requires an uphill drive of at least 290 yards to a plateau on a fairway that slopes left to right (toward the cemetery). Anything shorter leaves a blind second shot to a diminutive green for a hole of this length.

They took two holes the members play as par 5s -- the 475-yard 6th and the 466-yard 10th -- and declared them par 4s. etc.

OK? It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine hole-by-hole par.
What determines 'heavy or light' foliage?
What color are the tees? What color are the trees?
Do you need to remove your shoes to count to 12?
Do you understand the difference between an eagle and an ace?
So many questions, sow many seeds, sew mini-skirts, snow many inches.:slapface:

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

[Rolly]

I agree. Personally I think that you should always challenge yourself. Shooting a 54 at the Tac is a great goal, and something to work for. Shooting a 60 or under is a somewhat decent round for any Gold or Silver player. It seems too easy to raise the the par for those that need to feel better about their game. During a PDGA event ratings are based off of the SSA and the field correct? Not course "par". Somebody please correct me if I'm incorrect. I'm not sure there is an answer for this debate. The way I see it is their are 2 types of golfers those that break 60 and those that don't. I can see some argument why some would want it changed to 60. But really, it's about progessing yourself and your game, and Seatac is all about making you a better golfer. Frankly par shouldn't matter if you are playing for fun, and changing par because the course is tough is for golfers that I personally think don't want to challenge themselves. You play the course and in events play the field, not the par..If you want to change it to 4's great, fine, but that will never make you a better player. It will only give you some artifical feeling of accomplishment for the drive home.

[Skookum]

As course designers now The MC Boys can design and set par to whatever level they want. I will show up, pay, play and whine about how poorly I played not about how par is all screwed up.



"Par has been missed"
thats a good one maybe if you threw farther or putted better or maybe just...

There is a huge difference between tournament stroke play and handicapped stroke play. The real problem is the stupid rating debate. By using a handicap
you are already trying to level the field artificially
to make your series more attractive competition wise
not skill driven like it should be.


I find it interesting that at any Ball golf course you just show up, pay and play. NO mention of what my par should or should not be. Want to have some fun
Go into any Golf Pro shop and tell them par at their course is too low for your game. Know what they would say to you? Maybe some lessons or the pitch and putt around the corner is better suited for your skills.
FYI
In Ball golf the average player is 18 over
80% of all ball golfers will never ever break par
Realistic goals most want to just break 80


In DG we whine about par. Raise the par at the Tac and you will see a 1200 rated round.

Like Dan said "my personal best is my goal" If it's better than par great if not thats great too. It's still my personal best.

I'm not sure I even know where to start... or if it's even worth it, but as I am snowed in today why not.

First of all the little barb about us MC boy whining. I don't remember saying anything about my play or our performance because this issues has nothing to do with that. I take pride in stepping back from my skill level (sub 900) to look at these thing objectively. I use the math and methods provided by the PDGA to determine the relative strengths and weakness of individual holes and courses. I do not rely on my gut or my score (because i'm terrible). I assure you as a "designer" (I use that term loosely) we did not set par, we created it. We modified our holes till they hit our desired average strokes based on 1000 rated player (our at least tried our best).

As far as handicapping goes, it had zero bearing on the SSA calculations for the event. Handicapping only helps to determine the winner between to players it's does not affect their ability to play (although we may tie one of Crabtrees arms behind his back).

Your ball golf points are a little off. The pars in ball golf are created by a professional designer who crafts the course so that Pro golfers from Blue tee pad score an average that meets the par. Many ball golf course have different pars on the same hole (usually from the womans tees).

You are right ball golfer don't whine about par because the sport is mature enough after all these years that things like par are UNIFORM between courses. A par 4 on this course is equivalent to a par 4 on that course. Not, "Well on our course we call it a par 3" I wonder though if there was a golf course that had a 600 yard par three would player complain? I will have to always wonder because holes like that don't exist, at least not on PGA level courses.

Why even bring ball golf into this as it really speaks more to my points than yours. They use math and science to create balance courses and OMG what is the first question two golfer ask each other when they meet? What is your handicap? As a group they are way more plugged into that stuff than we are.

From a competitive stand point if we want to be taken seriously things like using "par" as word that means the same thing regardless of what course you happen to be standing on at the moment is essential. If we are talking about just going and have fun.... well we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, we'd be golfing.

What if we replaced the word "par" with "SSA" would it make this conversation easier to follow? They are after all the same thing. (please look it up before contesting this point) The SSA at SeaTac is always above 54 by 2-3 even 4 strokes. If I did the math I'm sure 4 of those holes out there have SSAs between 3.7 and 4.3 or higher. Making the SSA on 4 of the holes at SeaTac SSA 4 (rounded to nearest whole number). These are FACTS objective based on reality facts to dispute them is to seem a crazy person.

[KG_MCDGC]

What if we replaced the word "par" with "SSA" would it make this conversation easier to follow? They are after all the same thing. (please look it up before contesting this point) The SSA at SeaTac is always above 54 by 2-3 even 4 strokes. If I did the math I'm sure 4 of those holes out there have SSAs between 3.7 and 4.3 or higher. Making the SSA on 4 of the holes at SeaTac SSA 4 (rounded to nearest whole number). These are FACTS objective based on reality facts to dispute them is to seem a crazy person.

The nerd has spoken; Calculations Rule Everything Around Me, C.R.E.A.M. Get the money, dolla dolla bills ya'll...

But, for real, good debate. Better thread jack.

[sillybizz]

Sam? We need a "like" button on this site! posts 45 and 44 qualify.

[REDFIVE]

WHAT? CSI is splitting weekends, crazy.

[LJ Jubner]

As far as I know Guy and I am the only TD's to offer on the tee signs the avg Score for 5 divisions and how each holes is handicapped (14,17,18 being hardest 1,5,10 being easiest) since 2006


First of all the little barb about us MC boy whining. I don't remember saying anything about my play or our performance because this issues has nothing to do with that. I take pride in stepping back from my skill level (sub 900) to look at these thing objectively. I use the math and methods provided by the PDGA to determine the relative strengths and weakness of individual holes and courses. I do not rely on my gut or my score (because i'm terrible). I assure you as a "designer" (I use that term loosely) we did not set par, we created it. We modified our holes till they hit our desired average strokes based on 1000 rated player (our at least tried our best). .


I was speaking about myself when I said "whining" and it was about my play not the course layout or what par is. Yes, (As you are designing your holes) Par is what you make it and based on whatever criteria you choose to employ. When SeaTac was built the pDGA criteria was not available. Not that it's a bible... I am just not sure how we ever survived before 2005


As far as handicapping goes, it had zero bearing on the SSA calculations for the event. Handicapping only helps to determine the winner between to players it's does not affect their ability to play (although we may tie one of Crabtrees arms behind his back).
...From a competitive stand point if we want to be taken seriously things like using "par" as word that means the same thing regardless of what course you happen to be standing on at the moment is essential. If we are talking about just going and have fun.... well we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, we'd be golfing.

Handicapping makes it so two different skill levels can play against each other and have the scores be somewhat close at the end. And Yes both groups are equally as rabid when it comes to competition

My suggestion for kyle is make him play either super class or lids

Side note to play in a P.G.A. event you need to be a scratch (par) or better player


Your ball golf points are a little off. The pars in ball golf are created by a professional designer who crafts the course so that Pro golfers from Blue tee pad score an average that meets the par. Many ball golf course have different pars on the same hole (usually from the womans tees).

You are right ball golfer don't whine about par because the sport is mature enough after all these years that things like par are UNIFORM between courses. A par 4 on this course is equivalent to a par 4 on that course. Not, "Well on our course we call it a par 3" I wonder though if there was a golf course that had a 600 yard par three would player complain? I will have to always wonder because holes like that don't exist, at least not on PGA level courses.

Why even bring ball golf into this as it really speaks more to my points than yours. They use math and science to create balance courses and OMG what is the first question two golfer ask each other when they meet? What is your handicap? As a group they are way more plugged into that stuff than we are.
.

The only difference between us and Fazio, Nicklaus or Ross design is someone paid them to build it. Either group tries to design something that is
Feasible, aesthetically pleasing and fits the terrain. the bigger budgets actually move dirt around.

Actually handicap is #3
What the course record? is #1
and
Where is the first tee is #2

The variance you speak of is more likely addressed by the type of Ball golf course and it's not more then 2-3 strokes.

Pitch and Putt:


Par threes
and at the longest 250 yds
normally only 9 holes 2000 yds.
one set of tees.
pretty simple greens
no rough
no hazards
3-4 clubs + putter
Walked




Executive:

Either 9 or 18
]maybe one 5* and even number of 3's and 4's (*for 9 maybe two 5's for 18) Longest hole (either 4 or 5) 400 YDS.
Built by design to have fast play.
9 as little as 2700 to 6000 for 18.
Two sets of tees
maybe tougher greens to lengthen the course
a few hazards.
moderate rough
Full bag of irons and maybe a 3 or 4 wood.
Walk or ride



Municipal:

Full length 6800+
Even number of 3's,4's and 5's on each side. usually one 5 and three 3 the rest 4.
Multiple tees and distances but still same par/hole.
Tough greens
plenty of hazards
plenty of rough
Full bag
Walk or ride



* Someday's Tees are back, some days the move up one or two spots (normally determined only by maintenance issues IE heavy play)

Resort: Same as Municipal but in a better location and higher fees. I take shoes, gloves, balls and tees. I rent clubs Definitely ride

T.P.C. Tournament Players Club or P.G.A. type courses

Monster 3's
once in awhile a short 5 (for members) is made into a long 4 for the touring pros.
Hardest greens
hazards force players to work around them.
Rough that covers your shoes
Full bag
Definitely ride

[BigBubbBelly]

Since Im who I am, can I have it set to par 6? Ferguson is a pretty tough course for me. Youve all seen me throw, so I think I can reasonably ask for this. What do you say Tom?

[sillybizz]

Damn Jesse, you're rated higher than I am! If you get par 6 then I get par 6 1/2. This is what we need more 1/2 stroke pars. ;)

[papatart]

Wheee! It has been forever since I have posted on any thread and this one is the winner.

I am a total supporter of courses being labeled to what a par should truly be (and I will get it out of the way and say that to me, SeaTac is NOT a par 54 course but either a par 59 or 60, I don't know the stats well enough). I have to say that I am a fan of this because I want to see course designers starting to think about designing holes that take two or three shots to reach the "green". If a course has the room, then gone should be the days of thinking about how to design yet another hole that is reachable off the drive. I love holes that take great drives and excellent second (and sometimes third) shots to give the person a look at the basket. To me, this is where the fun really is.

Here is where I get to say "super huge kudos" to the group that painstakingly designed the excellent course we know as Shelton Springs. With true par 4 and par 5 holes, this course rocks. Why are they true par 4 and 5? Because it takes two or three quality shots to reach the basket and give you birdie opportunities. Can you eagle the par 4's and 5's? Sure, but it isn't easy.

I am just trying to say that if we have room at parks (like SeaTac and Shelton Springs) there is no reason not to try and design holes that are not reachable in one shot. They don't need to be 700 feet to be par 4 (I played a par 4 at Highbridge that was about 250', and a legitimate par 4) but they need to be designed to be a hole that will take two well executed shots to reach and is basically unreachable in one. It can be done.

As a last note for SeaTac, I actually walked the course with Herm when he was still about and the course was in it's early incantation. He asked me to come out to design a second set of teepads like I had at NAD to utilize the same fairways, yet totally change the shots. If these had been put in, there would have been two layouts at SeaTac using the same design, but neither of them would have been the course that is played now. All of the tees that are in use now would still be used, but some for the "easy course" and some for the "hard course". The thought was to have a more friendly par 3 type of course and also a totally challenging par ? course. I still wish to this day that those pads could have gone in.....

Also, he asked about the course itself and changes that I would make if I could. If anyone remembers the old course, holes 14 and 16 use to be shorter. They were the old, boring "3.5" type of holes where if you threw a drive that went 250' or 400', you were still getting a three with a basic upshot. But once the pins were moved back, now that short drive either takes the thought of a three out, or you must make a miraculous shot/putt to still get a three. But those holes are now definite par 4 holes thanks to some added distance. I'm not saying that "distance equal better" but it did work for those holes. We also talked about the possibility of clearing much more (yes, much more) behind pin 12 and trying to get to a par 5 on that hole..........

So while I enjoy deuce or die courses (RIP Riverside Red) I still love the challenge, both mentally and physically, of courses that have par 4 and 5 holes. Long live Shelton Springs and SeaTac (and maybe even Dalaiwood in the long setting, heeheehee):wink2:

Later,
Papa

[Bullseye]

Wheee! It has been forever since I have posted on any thread and this one is the winner.

I am a total supporter of courses being labeled to what a par should truly be (and I will get it out of the way and say that to me, SeaTac is NOT a par 54 course but either a par 59 or 60, I don't know the stats well enough). I have to say that I am a fan of this because I want to see course designers starting to think about designing holes that take two or three shots to reach the "green". If a course has the room, then gone should be the days of thinking about how to design yet another hole that is reachable off the drive. I love holes that take great drives and excellent second (and sometimes third) shots to give the person a look at the basket. To me, this is where the fun really is.

Here is where I get to say "super huge kudos" to the group that painstakingly designed the excellent course we know as Shelton Springs. With true par 4 and par 5 holes, this course rocks. Why are they true par 4 and 5? Because it takes two or three quality shots to reach the basket and give you birdie opportunities. Can you eagle the par 4's and 5's? Sure, but it isn't easy.

I am just trying to say that if we have room at parks (like SeaTac and Shelton Springs) there is no reason not to try and design holes that are not reachable in one shot. They don't need to be 700 feet to be par 4 (I played a par 4 at Highbridge that was about 250', and a legitimate par 4) but they need to be designed to be a hole that will take two well executed shots to reach and is basically unreachable in one. It can be done.

As a last note for SeaTac, I actually walked the course with Herm when he was still about and the course was in it's early incantation. He asked me to come out to design a second set of teepads like I had at NAD to utilize the same fairways, yet totally change the shots. If these had been put in, there would have been two layouts at SeaTac using the same design, but neither of them would have been the course that is played now. All of the tees that are in use now would still be used, but some for the "easy course" and some for the "hard course". The thought was to have a more friendly par 3 type of course and also a totally challenging par ? course. I still wish to this day that those pads could have gone in.....

Also, he asked about the course itself and changes that I would make if I could. If anyone remembers the old course, holes 14 and 16 use to be shorter. They were the old, boring "3.5" type of holes where if you threw a drive that went 250' or 400', you were still getting a three with a basic upshot. But once the pins were moved back, now that short drive either takes the thought of a three out, or you must make a miraculous shot/putt to still get a three. But those holes are now definite par 4 holes thanks to some added distance. I'm not saying that "distance equal better" but it did work for those holes. We also talked about the possibility of clearing much more (yes, much more) behind pin 12 and trying to get to a par 5 on that hole..........

So while I enjoy deuce or die courses (RIP Riverside Red) I still love the challenge, both mentally and physically, of courses that have par 4 and 5 holes. Long live Shelton Springs and SeaTac (and maybe even Dalaiwood in the long setting, heeheehee):wink2:

Later,
Papa



How dare you disagree with Jubmeister. What the hell do YOU know anyway?


Heh. Kidding. I agree completely.

[Lund]

My favorite is when someone just has to know what the "par" is on a particular hole before teeing off, cause it determines how they play the hole i.e. how risky they have to be. I have seen this happen many times. In tournaments. A lot of times this occurs on a hole that has traditionally been "called" a par 3 cause that was the only option when the course went in but now some TDs change the hole par for a tournament. One example from down here where this happens all the time is on the long hole at Timber (the hole formerly known as #17). Invariably when we get to the tee someone says,

"$h^& does anyone know if they called this a 3 or a 4 today?"

"Uh not sure. I don't think it matters really, there are gonna be more 4's than 3's for sure."

Momentary silence, mostly blank stare (presumably thinking about the "doesn't matter" part).

"Crap, does the scorecard say?"

"No"

"Well I'm just gonna assume its a 3 then, and bomb my drive down past the pole." Throw OB.

OR

"Well I gotta keep this bogey free round growing." Throw OB

Then when the hole is done, the icing on the cake (as far as comedic value goes):

"Man that better be a par 4."

This scene has played out a lot in tournament groups in my experience. Other holes where I remember similar conversations (Milo hole 1 of 27, Trojan regular hole 5, Hornings Meadow horseshoe hole...)

[LJ Jubner]

Thanks for articulating the point Scott

I want to say this now I am not opposed to 4's and 5's just not at Seatac or at least it's current setup.

I can offer that over the last few years SeaTac has been "a try and get ahead of it project". Now that the transition period is happining the new group is organizing " as to finally get a handle on the TAC". Their efforts should be more than aplauded they should be attended.

There is talk about a third 9 that could include holes that are 4's and 5's. I would be totally fine with that.

The two holes 14,16 were moved only because players actually birdied them. I thought 14 should have stayed where it was. The current pin is exposed to drives from 16 (to my knowlege 5 players have been hit in Tournament play on this part of the course). In the first two or three CSI/Pats I offered a Temp basket for these two holes on Sat. AM 14 short , PM 16 short. There is some talk about either "planting to protect" the current 14 or moving it 75 ft back down the walking trail towards the 15 tee.

I really don't see any room for 12 to move back. A blind shot over last established public access trail at that end of the course seems risky.

Attachment
this is info from 2005-09 maybe 300 rounds each winter/ summer
First line hole numbers
second line Winter handicap 1 hardest 18 easiest
third line winter scoring average
forth line summer handicap 1 hardest 18 easiest
last line summer scoring average

[LJ Jubner]

Mods is it possible to chop this two headed thread into just that two threads? It's pretty obvious where each starts and are vital discussions that should each go forward separately. Thanks

[LJ Jubner]

next update on Sunday Feb 27th

Keep those registrations coming the Open weekend is only a month away.

[olydiscgolf]

next update on Sunday Feb 27th

Keep those registrations coming the Open weekend is only a month away.

Start your own thread Jub! This one is about par!

[LJ Jubner]

I would but silly will whine about the forth active CSI thread

[sillybizz]

Yeah CSI threads are a Par 3, if you made one more you would get a bogey.

[LakeStevensBA]

I would also like to hijack this thread.

So, are the paved trails at Silver Lake always out of bounds?

[Toby Puttzinski]

I would also like to hijack this thread.

So, are the paved trails at Silver Lake always out of bounds?

To answer your question, not always.

[REDFIVE]

Jub,
Is online registration available?

[LJ Jubner]

Am's updated
Open not so much (-1) C Waugh is registerd

The sites gremlins are on the TD Admin side too. I have had to update my registration a min of 5 times to get it to actually register. I switched to chrome and it barely helped.

[LJ Jubner]

Update complete

[LJ Jubner]

Next update Wed 3/9

Phone messages

Please Speak slowly and clearly.

Alex Anderson needs to call back an leave the first number of the last four 206.446. ?163

[LJ Jubner]

Update complete
Course is starting to shapen up!

Thanks to the new Landlord (Chainbanger'z DGC) for getting after the Tac early and often.

[LJ Jubner]

Update complete

[LJ Jubner]

The Am weekend had 49 players not bad considering a work party at Lakewood and a $375 ace pot at Terrace (congrats Messford) weather was just fine maybe even a 1000 rated round or two. I should have the results posted either today or tomorrow. now bring on the pros

[LJ Jubner]

Open Weekend updated and current.

7 1000 rated players and sneaking up on the largest Open Men and full field Open event in the NW certainly in WA

Goal 60 open and CSI will be a B tier.

[CMC206]

SO it could switch from a C to a B?

[Toby Puttzinski]

Last time Jub had something change from a 'C' to a 'B', he had to stay after school for an extra round of 'show and tell' in Mr. Rupert's class.

[LJ Jubner]

From possible split thread first post

...C tier to start. If I get 60 Open or 72 Am's I would bump the respective weekend up to B

[LakeStevensBA]

As a new player who throws all lightning discs, tags baskets with my name after 3 birdies, and has 2 unleashed crazy dogs with me at all times on the course, can I ask...what is the difference between a B Tier and a C Tier? More prize money? More points? More fun?

[Scott]

As a new player who throws all lightning discs, tags baskets with my name after 3 birdies, and has 2 unleashed crazy dogs with me at all times on the course, can I ask...what is the difference between a B Tier and a C Tier? More prize money? More points? More fun?

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/EventsGuide.pdf

[cefire]

More money, more points, fun...about the same :)

[LJ Jubner]

So I posted the results and submitted the paperwork just now but I am having trouble accessing the site other then the homepage anyone else having trouble with pDGA site

[captain jack]

So I posted the results and submitted the paperwork just now but I am having trouble accessing the site other then the homepage anyone else having trouble with pDGA site

Ams results page comes up blank for me. Tried twice today.

Maybe you could post the results here Jub.

[Kymmer]

So I posted the results and submitted the paperwork just now but I am having trouble accessing the site other then the homepage anyone else having trouble with pDGA site

Just tried to view the results page and got nothing. Must be the site.

On an unrelated topic.....I just got a phone call from someone who found a disc today that I lost at LAST YEARS CSI. It must have finally fallen out of that holly bush/tree/thing. :biggrin2:

[CMC206]

Same here.. Blank page. I wanted to see if I was last place again...

[LJ Jubner]

It loaded for me this AM. The missing pDGA #'s is being fixed as well as getty, boyd being in the wrong divisions

[cefire]

Yeah, I was also having trouble uploading tournament results last month. I kept having to completely delete all cookies and stored files to be able to access each page...not sure what that means but if you run into trouble again you could try it.

[LJ Jubner]

It posted today and is accurate. The official results are submitted with payment.

I can offer that 3 some's played in 3 hrs 10 min
There will be a limited number of those shirts available at $20

One down one to go. The course looks great now but it will be pimped by the time Sat AM rolls around.

I will be working all day tomorrow, AM on Thurs and out playing on Fri like noontime pay me sooner then later BJORN

I will run 18 5's (90) if I need too

Come on Lets make this the largest Open field in State history.

[DMajor]

I find the blow up scores more entertaining than the good ones for seatac tournaments. I wonder if a couple of those real high scores became intentional so the round rating would drop. I always seem to play not quite bad enough to have a round drop when I blow up.

[LJ Jubner]

Man the pDGA site is frustrating. I tried unsuccessfully 6 times to update CSI registration so I am adding here first and trying again later there.

New Total

52

Open
Kirk McAllister
Ruben's # is 31881 not (88)
Mike Werth

Masters
Eric Messford
John Johnson
No Really! Elliott?

I was able to convince Mark Yarmek, Nathan McConnell to step up and play both weekends. Nathan P is still up in the air, (He may have hurt himself) we will see on Sat? Same with Markin?

Out to the curse! Do'h I am course.

[LJ Jubner]

Alright alright so it was not instantaneous. Now only Messford is left.

[Bullseye]

Alright alright so it was not instantaneous. Now only Messford is left.

It appears the PDGA has changed the way uploading works. It used to be that we upload our reg lists and the website updated immediately. Lately it appears there is some lag time before your updated list gets published... even though your changes were accepted.

[ericedge]

Mesford- 18515 (http://www.pdga.com/player_search_results/mesford/points)

[vapor]

Careful, those shirts from the am. weekend give off lots of dye.

[LJ Jubner]

Careful, those shirts from the am. weekend give off lots of dye.

Thats weird they were commercially done. What color did you get? We even joked about how much smaller they were to begin with multiple washes and dries part of the process.

wash the shirt alone and add some vinegar to the water say 1/4 cup to med load not a lot just enough to really set the dye. then it should wash with like colors.

[Snooskie Longhorn]

Jub,

The course looks marvelous. Not sure of the bench situation, but apparently they are somewhere in the park. Only the benches on Hole 2, 3, and 8 were affected. If we get them back, then I willl install the cable locks on them as to aviod future relocations.

The CSI 2011 is going to be the bomb!

Now I just have to beg for time off to register.

[vapor]

Thats weird they were commercially done. What color did you get? We even joked about how much smaller they were to begin with multiple washes and dries part of the process.

wash the shirt alone and add some vinegar to the water say 1/4 cup to med load not a lot just enough to really set the dye. then it should wash with like colors.

Thanks for the tip. Mine is green.

The tournament was fun, thanks for all your work.

[captain jack]

Jubs got that lucrative laundry career to fall back on if the whole DG tourney thing doesnt pan out.

[mine all mine]

Jub,

The course looks marvelous. Not sure of the bench situation, but apparently they are somewhere in the park. Only the benches on Hole 2, 3, and 8 were affected. If we get them back, then I willl install the cable locks on them as to aviod future relocations.

The CSI 2011 is going to be the bomb!

Now I just have to beg for time off to register.

We found the benches, they are in the Laurel bushes behind hole two. We were playing and heard laughing so I made my way into the Laurel Layer and discovered all the benches strategically placed literally up in the laurel with a bunch of teenagers? in them. I asked them politely to please return the benches by Friday. If we had more man power we would have done it then and there, but those benches were tied six to eight feet up in the laurels.

[Snooskie Longhorn]

Thanks for the update about the benches. Children had to sit on the ground for crying out loud. It was a travesty. Cable locks in hand and on the way.

Thanks again for all of the work on the course. Best I've ever seen it.

[captain jack]

Seatac is a different course now.

4 years ago it was intimidating to try and play a round at this time of year.

I was joking with Jub and Erik yesterday about how the grass on #4 was so tall back then, even if you threw your disc dead center fairway, you still had to look for it. I lost a disc on 14 years ago, short and right, it disappeared into those prehistoric giant cabbage plants and I never saw it again.

Now, for most golfers, finding anything resembling rough will take a really really bad shot.

It looks like a golf course out there now, not the abandoned subdivision it used to be. Except for some of the rubble poking out of the ground on 16 and 17, thats gonna get fixed next.

With so many people now contributing to the effort, Seatac will hopefully never again be that scary disc eating monster it used to be.

Still not a 60 though, I think its about a 57 now.

[Cajun]

We found the benches, they are in the Laurel bushes behind hole two. We were playing and heard laughing so I made my way into the Laurel Layer and discovered all the benches strategically placed literally up in the laurel with a bunch of teenagers? in them. I asked them politely to please return the benches by Friday. If we had more man power we would have done it then and there, but those benches were tied six to eight feet up in the laurels.

Stadium style seating for CSI, I bet you could see play on a few different holes from up there. You could serve drinks & food and charge $10 a seat this weekend.

[Sausage Fingers]

Still not a 60 though, I think its about a 57 now.

Which of the final four holes isn't par 4 in the longs?:chinscratch:

:pirate:

[olydiscgolf]

Which of the final four holes isn't par 4 in the longs?:chinscratch:

:pirate:

Is this a trick question? There are no "longs".

[Sausage Fingers]

Is this a trick question? There are no "longs".

I have played multiple pin positions on at least a few of those holes. If they have been pulled out and now only have 1 pin placement, please excuse my ignorance.:blush: I only get to play that course a few times each year...:waaah:

:pirate:

[LJ Jubner]

List updated 58 Registered Open players 40 Open men 13 Open Masters

The only two pins that have moved are 14 100ft longer and 16 about 75ft longer.

Jordy, they are all threes I have pared every hole at least once

[Sausage Fingers]

The only two pins that have moved are 14 100ft longer and 16 about 75ft longer.

Jordy, they are all threes I have pared every hole at least once

So they were actually moved and the shorter pin placements no longer exist? :confused:

Whether or not you have 3'd those holes is not the point, have you ever 2'd those holes with a putt from inside the circle? If not then the hole par should be 4. But I know that this is a sore spot for you Jubby, so I won't continue with this line of inquiry.

I love that course! Have a great time this weekend and give Sandy some crap for me.:cheers:

:pirate:

[Getty]

1st round leaders:

Feldberg 52
Crabtree 52
Brody 53
Morris 54
Anderson 54

Andy Faris shot 56 in Masters but I had to leave before all the scores were posted. All the players I talked to said the weather, which was light rain at times, wasn't a factor.

[BigBubbBelly]

1st group out - Open Group 2
J. Morris D. Ross C. Waugh
2nd group out - Masters
M. Werth A. Faris TC Todd M. Cook K. Holmes
3rd group out - Open Group 3
A. Holley C. Fry B. Cook
4th group out - Ladies
J. Westphal Melo M. Drews M. Bailey
5th group out - Open Group 4
L. O'Driscol B. Penny S. McClain
6th group out - Open Group 1
Borg K. Crabtree B. Miller J. Anderson

Everyone else, shotgun start at 8 a.m. Players meeting at 7:45 a.m.

Tee Times meeting at 10 a.m. at tourny central.
1st group out will probably tee off around 10:15 or so at hole 16.
2nd group out will probably tee off around 10:20 or so at hole 8.
3rd group out will probably tee off around 10:25 on hole 16.
4th group out will probably tee off around 10:30 on hole 8.
5th group out will probably tee off around 10:35 on hole 16.
6th group out will probably tee off around 10:40 on hole 8.

[CMC206]

RewindB Podcast. DG World Scenario interview with Dave Feldberg at the CSI. It comes in around 29 minutes.

http://www.rewindb.com/audio/3.26.11.mp3

[Karl Hungus]

Anybody wanna help me shoot some video of the lead card tomorrow? So as a moderately skilled videographer I was able to shoot some nice footage at CSI today. For the 1st round I parked my miniDV camcorder/tripod and shot all the groups driving on 6 and some other throws on 3 and 5. For rnd 2 I followed the lead card with my little handheld HD FlipCam and got some good stuff...However, it'd be great if I could get someone to shoot footage of where those big anny shots they throw actually land. The FlipCam is super easy to use...point at the subject, press a button, layoff the zoom, hold it still. Either way, I'll be able to edit a nice little video for the chainbanger'z site/youtube, etc. Cheers

[Getty]

By my unofficial tally, Feldberg wins it by 2 over Crabtree. Kyle had a 3-shot lead with 5 holes left (3-7) but shot them +2. Borg went 2,3,2,3,2. I believe Borg was -4 and Kyle was -3 heading into the 3rd round. Both guys missed putts in the circle during the round. Dave missed 4 by my count but had several sick runs and barely missed deucing #16 from 75 feet.

Lots of video was being shot by others so maybe we'll get some youtube clips soon.

[REDFIVE]

Video will be found here. (http://www.discflicks.tv/)

[Sam]

Um... that is not the video you are looking for...

[REDFIVE]

that is where the video will be. Not where it is now.

[Flash]

that is where the video will be. Not where it is now.

Same place the scores are!

[LJ Jubner]

I normally take Mon off, the scores should be up some time today.

[LJ Jubner]

Score are up with payout official by tomorrow

[LJ Jubner]

Damn soggy cards

I have found (been pointed out) several mistakes If you see one PM me here. Thanks

[DoubleDees]

Im curious if we can get a break down of the money. I didnt cash and never looked at the board but have been asked by several people why the payout sucked. Alot of people dont understand how fast money adds up.

[Sausage Fingers]

Damn soggy cards

Try this next year: Good paper means good scorecards (http://www.riteintherain.com/)

[all2common]

Man, to shooting "par" at Seatac nets you a 1022. Shooting +11 on "par" (61) gets you 962. Craziness. What if par changed constantly, saying that par for the course on a given tournament weekend was the average score shot. Or is that the SSA?

[LJ Jubner]

Im curious if we can get a break down of the money. I didnt cash and never looked at the board but have been asked by several people why the payout sucked. Alot of people dont understand how fast money adds up.

First let me state there was exactly $0 in sponsorship for the Open weekend. Any sponsorship money generated was used to support the Ams.

Sure Ed the total deductions out of every entrant was $20
$4 INWS, $3 each to the club and pDGA $2 for the Ace pot and $8 for me. about $420 (12%)

The way I see it I am providing a service and deserve to be compensated for that effort. I could have easily "expenses'd" much more from the $150 trophies to the $50 sanctioning and insurance but I did not. It's not like I live around the corner or have a club to run expenses through with Maintenance costs and such.

It's interesting how if I as a TD can't profit off an Open only field but can gouge the Ams as fast and as often as I want. I am curious why anyone would ever offer an Open only event "just for the heck of it"

Just for the record I took $26 from each Am $15 shirt (cost),and the same fee's as the Open. Again, No trophies or national fees those were all supported by my sponsors.

[LJ Jubner]

Man, to shooting "par" at Seatac nets you a 1022. Shooting +11 on "par" (61) gets you 962. Craziness. What if par changed constantly, saying that par for the course on a given tournament weekend was the average score shot. Or is that the SSA?

I think the Tac plays much harder in March especially this past weekend. At times on Sat afternoon it was down right miserable. Low 50's wind to 15 and RAIN

[TYVEK]

hey jub, after reading you post about the money/fee's and where they went to i had a question/suggestion for you.

i am not meaning to sound like a jerk or anything i am honestly trying to give some constructive critisism. as a player if you as a TD are taking a small fee for you work as a TD i would expect that to include having scores updated in a timely manner. for instance posting saturdays scores on saturday evening, and final scores posted sunday evening.

im not trying to sound like a whiner or complainer, just if your actually taking money for yourself (which i think is ok for TD's to do) please try and give the players the best tournament experience possible. MOST players of a tournament look forward to checking out posted scores on the day they played the round(s).

[LJ Jubner]

hey jub, after reading you post about the money/fee's and where they went to i had a question/suggestion for you.

i am not meaning to sound like a jerk or anything i am honestly trying to give some constructive criticism. as a player if you as a TD are taking a small fee for you work as a TD i would expect that to include having scores updated in a timely manner. for instance posting Saturdays scores on Saturday evening, and final scores posted Sunday evening.

I'm not trying to sound like a whiner or complainer, just if your actually taking money for yourself (which i think is OK for TD's to do) please try and give the players the best tournament experience possible. MOST players of a tournament look forward to checking out posted scores on the day they played the round(s).

Thank Ty I do try an get them up as soon as possible but sometimes sleep wins out.

I can offer two other pieces of info
First, I posted the payout on Sat PM mid round encouraged players to look at it and had it posted after the round and all day Sun. That would have been the time to discuss it. The only person who mentioned anything was (after the awards) Mark Kilmer and I explained it to him.

Second, I wanted to thank the Am's who used their scrip as entry into the Open weekend. As a TD I have choices to make one of which was to allow Am's to do just that scrip for entry. I could have very easily made them take plastic and then pay again to play the following weekend but I did not.

[LJ Jubner]

I also wanted to mention that between the two weekends CSI contributed $315 to the repayment of the SeaTac basket purchase to it's lenders. Thats nearly 10% of the total cost.

[Getty]

You can also try charging them $20 for the trophy they won fair and square in a division you decided to hold. I know for a fact you didn't have to pay out scrip to one first-place finisher, so you got to pocket that payout. Cool Shoez would've hung you by the balls, for sure.

Still, I had a great time playing 3 rounds with some new pals and managed to throw or match personal bests in all 3 rounds.





Second, I wanted to thank the Am's who used their scrip as entry into the Open weekend. As a TD I have choices to make one of which was to allow Am's to do just that scrip for entry. I could have very easily made them take plastic and then pay again to play the following weekend but I did not.

[LJ Jubner]

You can also try charging them $20 for the trophy they won fair and square in a division you decided to hold. I know for a fact you didn't have to pay out scrip to one first-place finisher, so you got to pocket that payout. Cool Shoez would've hung you by the balls, for sure.

Still, I had a great time playing 3 rounds with some new pals and managed to throw or match personal bests in all 3 rounds.

You raise some interesting points
How many players need to be in a field to offer a trophy? Not the division but actual number of players? 2?,3?

My trophies come in two parts the actual trophy and the custom top.

Getty I could have just as easily gave you the custom top ONLY and had it count as a trophy. As far as scrip goes you can still cash it in.

[geo_ducks]

It is refreshing to see a TD be candid about payout/finances for an event. Any TD deserves to take their full share of entry fees. This should never be a point of contention, especially for those of us who have not run our own tournaments. To all TDs out there: THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK!!!!!

With that said, much respect is due to the SeaTac course and those who have done such an excellent job of maintaining it. May the future of our sport head in this direction...the days of pitch and putt golf is over!!!
For those who have not played SeaTac, do yourself a favor and see if you are as good as you think :)

[DoubleDees]

I dont see why the person running the event should be paid more than the person winning the event in Open. PERIOD.


I would like to give Jub a congrats on winning the CSI.

[Skookum]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I though the Maximum event management fee for a "C" Tier event was $100 dollars.

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/TourStandards.pdf

[DoubleDees]

65x57=3705
8x57=456
12x57=684
45x57=2565
456/2565=.17.7%

fees are not part of the prize pool.
-----------------
20x57=1140

this is to much money out of the prize pool.
-----------------

Total prize pool= 2556 on the pdga site.

Open Men=1741 38x45 1710
Open Women=185 4x45 180
Master Men=630 14x45 630

according to Jub math there is added money.
----------------------------

if you can read and understand what i just did here you will realize that it doesnt make sense. ive always got along with Jub and dont hold any ill will! I feel this is something that might help people realize that playing pro is pointless.

edit*fixed

[LJ Jubner]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I though the Maximum event management fee for a "C" Tier event was $100 dollars.

I am not sure if there is a limit or not I used the standard service industry tipping percentages. I heard the pDGA might insist TD's take a cut (8%)then hold them responsable for the results. IE It's hard to bitch out a volunteer but it's easy to critique someone who was compensated.

Thanks Ed that means a lot coming from you. I wanted to thank all the entrants who compensated me for the work on the course that benefits everyone the other 24/7, 363.

[Skookum]

I guess it just depends on if Tour Standards are more like guide lines than actual rules.

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/TourStandards.pdf

[DMajor]

I'm curious what the hourly wage would come out to, if you took all of the hours Jub put in working on the course (for these tournaments) and running both weekends compared to the amount of money he actually pocketed after.

I'm guessing it's not a number very many of us would work for.

[cefire]

My guess, $0.05 per hour - good point Dan!

Another interesting figure:

Number of people playing CSI that were at the last two workparties = 0

Certainly not expecting those living far away to come as they have their own courses to tend to but this is still an interesting stat :) (edit: this is neither a justification for Jub or the tournament payout or anything but an interesting figure regarding average workparty participation in the area)

[cefire]

I feel this is something that might help people realize that playing disc golf for money is pointless.

and fixed this :)

[DoubleDees]

There is also the 50$ sanctioning i left out. as well as the 50$ insurance.


Andrew you made me lol

[LJ Jubner]

65x57=3705
8x57=456
12x57=684
45x57=2565
456/2565=.17.7%

fees are not part of the prize pool.
-----------------
20x57=1140

this is to much money out of the prize pool.
-----------------

Total prize pool= 2556 on the pdga site.

Open Men=1741 38x45 1710
Open Women=185 4x45 180
Master Men=630 14x45 630

according to Jub math there is added money.
----------------------------

if you can read and understand what i just did here you will realize that it doesnt make sense. ive always got along with Jub and dont hold any ill will! I feel this is something that might help people realize that playing pro is pointless.

edit*fixed

Ed I too bear no ill will thats why I posted them early and online. If you really feel playing pro is pointless then running a pro only seems really pointless After all is'nt it just a glorified ace pot?

Here are the totals $1140-$228 (INWs)=$912-$165 (Club)=$747-$171(pDGA)=$576-$112 (Ace)=$464 left /57=$8.10

[DoubleDees]

im curious what the pdga will do if a td takes more than the tour standard amount. im also curious what the feelings are of the other pros who played this event.

[REDFIVE]

I know Jub put in a bunch of time and I thank him for doing this. I had a good time playing the event and know it was only due to jubs work. I have no problem with a TD taking some cash to compensate for their work. However I don't agree with taking more than the winner of the event. I would likely be upset if I traveled to the event and didn't feel that I had a chance to be compensated for my expenses.

The payout may have seemed poor due to the amount of spots that were paid out also. I shot better than 31 players and made a profit of $20.
I became curious as to why 17 out of 38 places were paid with last cash getting $35 when the buy in was $65? I think that last cash should be no less that money back. If you lose any cash you should be losing all your cash. I prefer top heavy prize pools.

I was given the oportunity to speak up about the pay out before the end of the event but decided not to because I wanted to focus on preparing myself for my upcoming round. The pay out was posted but the deduction for pocket was not. Atleast I didn't see it anywhere. Probably for the best because I know there would be players that would be livid about this.

As a player that attempts to profit from playing in tournaments I dont like to see the TD take so much. But as a player that enjoys playing in events I know that TDs should be compensated in some way. Where do we draw the line? Our events don't bring in enough cash to make money for both the players and the TDs. I Think too much money was taken from the pot and the money that was left was spread too thin.

I am not too concerned but not fully ok with it either. I guess it will make me think a bit harder about playing the event next year but it isn't going to keep me out for sure, as of now. I would not travel to the event with the payout spread so thin. Luckily I don't have to worry about that.

Again I thank you Jub for your work. You got $5.00 I can borrow?

[LJ Jubner]

Thanks Chris Your post was well thought out.

The way almost all events are set up now the TD has the opportunity to make more then any contestant. My cut was off the entire field not just one section so comparing it to just the Open winner only seems nit picky. Would you rather I nickled and dimed the purse to death same end but easier to rationalize. I personally asked Dave if $8 per player was too much and he said NO.

I have attached the posted payout sheet from the weekend. The handwritten column on the left is the expense section.

As far as top loading I used the recommended 45% Voalkes formula. I have noticed that no matter how many players or how much they paid the payout is always about the same. I agree that last cash should be your entry fee back minus fee's of course. After all when you pay in it's the events money and up to the TD's to decide where it goes within reason that is.

I am curious why the TD is the only one who is asked to add cash. Unlike the Am's not one open player even considered adding cash or offered to sponsor. Is it because the Am's like extra stuff? or is it because the Pros are use to only playing for their entry fees?

So my question's are
What deductions are you willing to support? Maintenance, Series, club, national (both player and sanctioning), ace, TD?

What deductions are you not willing to support? Maintenance, Series, club national (both player and sanctioning), ace, TD?

Is an Open field Only just a glorified Ace Pot?

What are you willing to part with? like the course being pristine? no trophies?


Needless to say I was available to discuss over the weekend and will be most anytime in the future and yes Chris I can float you a finski

[mine all mine]

My guess, $0.05 per hour - good point Dan!

Another interesting figure:

Number of people playing CSI that were at the last two workparties = 0

Certainly not expecting those living far away to come as they have their own courses to tend to but this is still an interesting stat :) (edit: this is neither a justification for Jub or the tournament payout or anything but an interesting figure regarding average workparty participation in the area)

Um...I attended a work party the week of CSI, helping weed whack the course. It actually affected my play because all the weed whacking inflamed my tendinitis and I had to drop out in the second round. Lesson learned, don't do that the week of the tournament, but I WILL come out and help again just not the week of the tournament.

[Getty]

I consider 4 to be a proper number for prize qualification. I believe the PDGA defines a division as two or more players. You can simply deduct the cost of the prize from the 1st place scrip and call it good.

"This is what you're all playing for, folks. They are sweet!" Jub lifts trophy and speaks on 3/19/11

It now resides in my studio on top of one of my amps, and I think of Dan everytime I see it. It's the only trophy I have that doesn't stay in my game room since Dan and I were occassional musical collaborators, and I'm happy to have a momento of him when I fire up the guitars.

Thanks for the tournament, Jub!



You raise some interesting points
How many players need to be in a field to offer a trophy? Not the division but actual number of players? 2?,3?

My trophies come in two parts the actual trophy and the custom top.

Getty I could have just as easily gave you the custom top ONLY and had it count as a trophy. As far as scrip goes you can still cash it in.

[LJ Jubner]

...Number of people playing CSI that were at the last two workparties = 0
...but an interesting figure regarding average work party participation in the area)

Andrew, I know that more Am's showed for the work parties then the Opens did. Aaron Holley comes to mind as the only one to work and play, Bill Clark worked but could not play. I have also noticed more older Am's participate.

Here is the list of volunteers who helped get the course ready
The Bangerz weekend Andrew could you please list them here I would not want to forget anyone

The weekday workers
Am Week of 15 hrs each Cap'n Jack, M.A.M. (Ray) Bill and Aaron, Erik's friend larry

Erik Illg the new course superintendent was invaluable his time and effort was critical.

About 35 hrs of my time was spent with a blower, a rake and a tarp
holes 4,7,8, 9 and 11-18. By doing this now I made it much easier for the grass to grow and easier to and on the mower as the season progresses.

[Sean Phillips]

So my question's are
What deductions are you willing to support? Maintenance, Series, club, national (both player and sanctioning), ace, TD?

What deductions are you not willing to support? Maintenance, Series, club national (both player and sanctioning), ace, TD?

Is an Open field Only just a glorified Ace Pot?

What are you willing to part with? like the course being pristine? no trophies?



None of these questions are black and white. Every one of them is a "how much" question. Maybe a 1-10 scale would be an accurate way to get feed back.

Back to work, I'll try to remember to answer them later.

[LJ Jubner]

None of these questions are black and white. Every one of them is a "how much" question. .

Exactly my point why are some ok and others not?
and
at what point does it become to much?
One thing is for sure TD compensation is in the near future.

[Discgolfingkilmers]

I do not agree with TD's getting paid for x-c-b tiers !!!!!
All the players that are at the work parties are not getting paid so why should the TD? There are other players helping out like the club members should they be paid also?
This is a problem that we are coming up against and i think we as players should END it this year.
We need to make these TD's that are going to take money for themselves make that known before we sign up and pay, not Sunday morning when we have no say to change it. We are there to golf and compete not dicker with the TD over payout.
WE AS PLAYERS NEED TO CHANGE THIS!!!! STAND UP AND SAY NO MORE
Ask all TD'S before you sign up if they are taking money out to pay themselves. better yet lets make them post it in the flyer or online so we know.
Is this a standard for all inland series events?
JUB THIS STINKS and most players at your event all agreed that it is you and the way you run your event is hokey to say the least. to bad they can only complain to other players and not the guy stealing their money and setting a standard for greed and crappy payouts. The more this happens and TD's get away with it the harder it will be to change it later. WE AS PLAYERS CAN STOP THIS

MAY 14TH & 15TH STEILY EVENT WILL NOT BE TAKING ANY MONEY FOR THE TD. Will be donating my time for the growth of disc golf in my community.

[LJ Jubner]

Here is a little survey I whipped up for us to try out. Please only take it once and only if you played

<a href="http://FreeOnlineSurveys.com/rendersurvey.asp?sid=0lwq4ns34oqas6w895646" >

Click here to take our Online Survey

</a>

[LJ Jubner]

This is a problem that we are coming up against and i think we as players should END it this year. We need to make these TD's that are going to take money for themselves make that known before we sign up and pay, not Sunday morning when we have no say to change it. We are there to golf and compete not dicker with the TD over payout.
WE AS PLAYERS NEED TO CHANGE THIS!!!! STAND UP AND SAY NO MORE
Ask all TD'S before you sign up if they are taking money out to pay themselves. better yet lets make them post it in the fl yer or online so we know.

This policy will at some point put you up against the PDGA and it's policies

Furthermore, Then the same TD's need to publish all of their books to see what and where they made money from both Open and AMATEUR. My payout was posted Sat afternoon, From that point forward if you choose not to question it it's your fault not mine

All the players that are at the work parties are not getting paid so why should the TD? There are other players helping out like the club members should they be paid also?
.

The chainbangerz were actually offered club membership for their volunteerism so in away they were paid + the $3 per player also went to the club.

This is a problem that we are coming up against and i think we as players should END it this year. We need to make these TD's that are going to take money for themselves make that known before we sign up and pay, not Sunday morning when we have no say to change it. We are there to golf and compete not dicker with the TD over payout.

WE AS PLAYERS NEED TO CHANGE THIS!!!! STAND UP AND SAY NO MORE
Ask all TD'S before you sign up if they are taking money out to pay themselves. better yet lets make them post it in the flyer or online so we know.

I don't know if you remember or not Mark but I was the first one to even consider publishing my deductions now it's common place. and Yes in the future my flyers will state that as TD I will be getting an established % of the total entries collected


Is this a standard for all inland series events?.


Nope, but they do offer other guidelines concerning deductions and their acceptable amounts



MAY 14TH & 15TH STEILY EVENT WILL NOT BE TAKING ANY MONEY FOR THE TD. Will be donating my time for the growth of disc golf in my community.

Well good luck finding people to do it more then once or twice and By spending the time, SeaTac current conditions benefit the same community EVERYDAY not just on Tournament weekends

[Sean Phillips]

Exactly my point why are some ok and others not?
and
at what point does it become to much?
One thing is for sure TD compensation is in the near future.

You're doing the correct thing in my opinion. Ask for feedback, change accordingly, then let capitalism do it's thing.

[cefire]

Sorry "Mine all Mine"! I knew I would probably miss someone, but you and Jub are right (and I was thinking mainly about the Pro weekend since that is where the payout discussion went!) - I don't have "the list" of who was there at the Bangerz work party, you all know who you are!, but there were a couple who worked and played.

We do have a great dedicated (but small) group who works on the course - I just wish we had more! :)

[LJ Jubner]

Sorry "Mine all Mine"! I knew I would probably miss someone, but you and Jub are right (and I was thinking mainly about the Pro weekend since that is where the payout discussion went!) - I don't have "the list" of who was there at the Bangerz work party, you all know who you are!, but there were a couple who worked and played.

We do have a great dedicated (but small) group who works on the course - I just wish we had more! :)

It's safe to say 15 on Sat worked about 5 hrs each? 12 or so on Sunday about 4 hrs. Hey it sounds like Kilmer has some time maybe he can drive the 40 min one way to help. lol

[LJ Jubner]

First survey Am
To clarify I did not take anything from the Am weekend. the profit was $29

[LJ Jubner]

First survey Am
To clarify I did not take anything from the Am weekend. the profit was $29

here is the same form for the AM weekend

[Wobbly Bob]

I do not agree with TD's getting paid for x-c-b tiers !!!!!
All the players that are at the work parties are not getting paid so why should the TD? There are other players helping out like the club members should they be paid also?
This is a problem that we are coming up against and i think we as players should END it this year.
We need to make these TD's that are going to take money for themselves make that known before we sign up and pay, not Sunday morning when we have no say to change it. We are there to golf and compete not dicker with the TD over payout.
WE AS PLAYERS NEED TO CHANGE THIS!!!! STAND UP AND SAY NO MORE
Ask all TD'S before you sign up if they are taking money out to pay themselves. better yet lets make them post it in the flyer or online so we know.
Is this a standard for all inland series events?
JUB THIS STINKS and most players at your event all agreed that it is you and the way you run your event is hokey to say the least. to bad they can only complain to other players and not the guy stealing their money and setting a standard for greed and crappy payouts. The more this happens and TD's get away with it the harder it will be to change it later. WE AS PLAYERS CAN STOP THIS

MAY 14TH & 15TH STEILY EVENT WILL NOT BE TAKING ANY MONEY FOR THE TD. Will be donating my time for the growth of disc golf in my community.

Here are the TD guidelines for the INWS.

Without sponsorship a tournament is destined to fail. This seems to be the real issue concerning the Pro weekend of the CSI. Finding tournament sponsorship has become increasingly harder in the economic climate that we are living in right now. Then when you add the fact that you have to find sponsorship for two weekends in a row really creates a challenge for a TD.

If you are unhappy with a specific event you may always exercise your option to choose not to play in the tournament. Most events will fill up anyway. I personally prefer to not have whiners play in the events that I direct.

I commend you on donating your time and effort for the upcoming Steili Event, but the days of "Thanks for a great tournament." as payment for all the work that goes into directing a tournament are over. The PDGA recognizes this fact.

[Yammits]

LJ Jubner has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

Okay WHAT is going on here?

I have tried on several occasions to get the details CORRECTED for me on this tournament... Jub listed me with an incorrect name AND incorrect PDGA number... not sure how or why this happened, but I have asked it to be corrected several times but to no avail... now JUB is banned from PMs? Not taking PM's... what gives here? This is his duty as a TD.

[Sausage Fingers]

LJ Jubner has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

Okay WHAT is going on here?

I have tried on several occasions to get the details CORRECTED for me on this tournament... Jub listed me with an incorrect name AND incorrect PDGA number... not sure how or why this happened, but I have asked it to be corrected several times but to no avail... now JUB is banned from PMs? Not taking PM's... what gives here? This is his duty as a TD.

Forum communication is never the 'official' venue for contacting the TD of an event. Either call him directly or e-mail him directly if you need to contact him. This forum is a convenience that some TDs provide and Jub is one of those, but since he is serving a one week ban for certain comments, posting here is like standing on your porch and yelling about how your water bill is too high. Nobody but your neighbors hear your complaints...

:pirate:

[Scott]

LJ Jubner has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

Okay WHAT is going on here?

I have tried on several occasions to get the details CORRECTED for me on this tournament... Jub listed me with an incorrect name AND incorrect PDGA number... not sure how or why this happened, but I have asked it to be corrected several times but to no avail... now JUB is banned from PMs? Not taking PM's... what gives here? This is his duty as a TD.

Jub will be able to receive your PM once his suspension is over. In the mean time, a phone call would probably work best.

[LJ Jubner]

LJ Jubner has chosen not to receive private messages or may not be allowed to receive private messages. Therefore you may not send your message to him/her.

Okay WHAT is going on here?

I have tried on several occasions to get the details CORRECTED for me on this tournament... Jub listed me with an incorrect name AND incorrect PDGA number... not sure how or why this happened, but I have asked it to be corrected several times but to no avail... now JUB is banned from PMs? Not taking PM's... what gives here? This is his duty as a TD.

I resubmitted the AM weeknd paperwork, Remmeber the Offical socres are done at the National level and on thier time schedule it's not like CSI was the only event since the begining of the year so be patient. NOW!!!!

[killa]

I find the blow up scores more entertaining than the good ones for seatac tournaments. I wonder if a couple of those real high scores became intentional so the round rating would drop. I always seem to play not quite bad enough to have a round drop when I blow up.

You're on to something, Danny boy. I showed up late Sat. morning (er, kind of...), so I was penalized 8 strokes for missing 2 holes. At the end of that first round I made the tough decision that I probably hadn't played well enough to overcome the deficit and cash even if my next 2 rds were tourney-P.R.s for me at the SeaTac... so I 10-putted the last hole, making sure it would be bad enough to not affect my rating.

I've "thrown" a round intentionally one other time (withheld a scorecard... also at the 'Tac, coincidentally), but I didn't like the feeling it left me with. I felt like I was deceiving myself and trying to live in a fantasy world, and I told myself I'd never do it again on principle, despite the potential embarassment of a bad score/rating being posted online. This time around, though, it seemed more deceptive to turn in a card with 7s for the two holes I hadn't actually played; it didn't feel right that such sandbagging-by-default should affect my rating. So I bit the bullet, decided the end result of the the tourney was a lost cause, and focused on playing my best golf for rounds 2 and 3. (side note: they did indeed turn out to be my two best sanctioned rounds at SeaTac, but I would have been a few strokes shy of cashing)

I stand by my decision, and hope that my memory of this experience helps motivate me to be substantially early for future events, both in disc golf (to have more time to warm up, but also because the TD can apparently choose to start 20+ minutes earlier than what the flyer says...) and life in general.

[Scott]

You're on to something, Danny boy. I showed up late Sat. morning (er, kind of...), so I was penalized 8 strokes for missing 2 holes. At the end of that first round I made the tough decision that I probably hadn't played well enough to overcome the deficit and cash even if my next 2 rds were tourney-P.R.s for me at the SeaTac... so I 10-putted the last hole, making sure it would be bad enough to not affect my rating.

I've "thrown" a round intentionally one other time (withheld a scorecard... also at the 'Tac, coincidentally), but I didn't like the feeling it left me with. I felt like I was deceiving myself and trying to live in a fantasy world, and I told myself I'd never do it again on principle, despite the potential embarassment of a bad score/rating being posted online. This time around, though, it seemed more deceptive to turn in a card with 7s for the two holes I hadn't actually played; it didn't feel right that such sandbagging-by-default should affect my rating. So I bit the bullet, decided the end result of the the tourney was a lost cause, and focused on playing my best golf for rounds 2 and 3. (side note: they did indeed turn out to be my two best sanctioned rounds at SeaTac, but I would have been a few strokes shy of cashing)

I stand by my decision, and hope that my memory of this experience helps motivate me to be substantially early for future events, both in disc golf (to have more time to warm up, but also because the TD can apparently choose to start 20+ minutes earlier than what the flyer says...) and life in general.

Check out section 3.3 b (13) (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGA_Competition_Manual_2011.pdf)

[cefire]

Makes sense Killa, the reasoning seems perfectly sound to me. I'd feel kind of ashamed if I purposefully 'threw' a round but if you are late, the rating is already going to be incredibly inaccurate.

Pick on those who actually are circumventing the rules...there are plenty of them :)