Golf, Golf, Golf...

[RonTheWhip]

Played nine holes of ball golf today at Trysting Tree in Corvallis. I have only played there a handful of times, as well as only playing ball golf occasionally anyways, but I shot my best nine yet. 53 (+17) for nine holes, just under a double bogey average.

1. Par 4: 6
2. Par 4: 5
3. Par 4: 8
4. Par 3: 6
5. Par 5: 6
6. Par 4: 4
7. Par 3: 4
8. Par 4: 8
9. Par 5: 6

I can only drive about 200 yds, not very consistent. I have a decent chip, and struggle with putting. Sometimes I wish that Disc Golf was more like ball golf, in the sense of par fours and fives. I like how every shot in ball golf can either bring you closer to a good score on a hole, or if you are a beginner like myself...away from par. In disc golf with everything (ok, not everything) as a par three, we lose that feel. It becomes drive and putt hole after hole. This is why Milo is my favorite course, as well as Winthrop and other Championship layouts.

Disc Golf is too easy. Our putting is so drastically easier than ball golf putting it is almost rediculous. What it makes me think about is the lack of scoring seperation between the top players in our game - the elite professionals, the top regional pros, and the average joe. I consider myself a top regional pro, and on many par three courses, lets say like Willamette, I have a decent shot at taking out players like Borg and Nikko. However, put us on top notch courses, and the obvious disparities in skill level appear. Take for example, the Trojan layout at this years ORDGC. Many of Oregon's best have never played such a challenging course, and the seperation was evident. While I was extremely happy with how I played, it may or may not (probably not) have been enough to take out any elite player. If our game was a bit more challenging (lets say like a thinner basket design...) then I feel "being good" would mean a bit more in our sport.

Just my thoughts. Oh, and I did play 18 holes at Adair afterwards and shot a 46 :)

[Adam Schneider]

But maybe the fact that it's so easy is part of the appeal for a lot of people.

[RonTheWhip]

But maybe the fact that it's so easy is part of the appeal for a lot of people.

Undoubtedly. However, as a sport I think things oughta change at the professional level.

[Toby Puttzinski]

I'd like to see more courses with par 4's and 5's as well. That's one of the things that appeals to me in regard to playing with superclass discs, because they force you to 'golf' a bit more...

[blang11]

Ditto.

[The Ombudsman]

Most every course out here has a few par 4's and some even have par 5's. Many of the par 4's would be considered par 3 on the west coast.

[Cold Steel]

Undoubtedly. However, as a sport I think things oughta change at the professional level.

What I get from what you've written is that putting should be more difficult. I haven't played much stick golf, but I do know that it's real easy to spend a few strokes trying to get it in that stupid cup.
Is that what you're talking about?

[sillybizz]

What I get from what you've written is that putting should be more difficult. I haven't played much stick golf, but I do know that it's real easy to spend a few strokes trying to get it in that stupid cup.
Is that what you're talking about?

Because you don't play ball golf often. Putting for people who don't play disc golf often can be tricky as well.

[snap7times]

Dion, you sound exactly like a beginner in disc golf but only you are speaking of your experience in ball golf. I remember my first PDGA tournament, I shot an 86 and a 74, omg I sucked, but with hard work, it's gotten easier and I am yearning that challenging course more and more. I used to be a hard core ball golfer and I was pretty good at it too. Accuracy and putting improve in both sports about the same with practice, but yes putting the ball in the cup from 30 feet out is way harder than putting the disc in the basket or even close from 60 feet out. Birdies are definitely harder to come by on the ball golf course for the average golver versus a disc golfer but for the pros, it's about the same in a sense. Good ball golfers will get -5, -8 or even a super hot round of -12 or something, just like a super hot round at Milo is -8 or -9 on the east and -12 on the west... But in the end, yes putting in disc golf is easier which makes our scores lower, maybe we should start making sure that sanctioned championships and national tours have at least a par of 60 or something. Most golf courses are par 70-72 while Disc Golf is 54, which is a 16-18 stroke difference which allows for more variation. I am sure if we played 24 holes of disc golf in a round or played par 60+ disc golf courses, we would see the same score spreads that we see in ball golf in disc golf... ahh enough rambling, point is, dion's a pro who's bored like tiger woods and wants longer, harder golf that includes more strategy and skill.. I agree we need more milos and idlewilds *never played this but there is an annual Deaf tournament there and some top pros say it is their top 3 course nationwide because of the par 69-72*...

I truly enjoyed Adair's tournament layout at Willamette Open along with Bryant surging up into the top 5 in Oregon in 2010. I look forward to more "modified" courses in tournament play as that really does bring out the real skill and strategy in players.

Top tournaments in 2010 for me
Trojan - Oregon Championship layout - par 61
Adair - Willamette Open layout - Par 60
Bryant - Par 59
Milo - East and West, par 60
Timber Linn - Calapooia - Par 58

I look forward to the sport evolving to more modified courses requiring more skill and strategy in the future.

[smobro]

Undoubtedly. However, as a sport I think things oughta change at the professional level.

I wondered if Anthon's 53 at the USDGC last year would be the turning point for professional disc golf much like the way golf changed when Al Geiberger shot his 59 in 1977. But look at what Shusterick and Nikko did to the course when they made it so much harder. I mean, how much more technical will they have to make it next year?

I think that Disc Golf courses on average are right on pace with golf courses in the aspect of course difficulty. In Golf, the majority of courses in the US are generally not going to be shot in par or better by the average golfer.While they are most often shot in par or better by the local pro and the touring pro. In disc golf the same phenomena occurs. (The average disc golfer in the US is less than a 930 rated player according to PDGA stats and the average golfer in the US is more than a 28 handicap )

Perhaps Tee placement is what disc golf is in need of looking at. In Golf, there is a series of tee lengths. Women play the front tees, then the am's play the next tee, then the advanced play the next and the touring pro's play the back tee's. Without having to put concrete in, tournaments could do this if needed on courses that are typically easier to score on for the touring and regional pro.

As in golf, the equipment and players have been progressing rapidly. Golf couse superintendants have had to change and adapt their courses for the new game over time. Disc courses will have to do the same.
It is thinkable that courses could be remodeled to account for this as well. Today, the average Disc Golf Pro can throw over 450 feet with accuracy and has all the shots. Because of that, courses like Willamette should be adjusted for tournament play when pro's are going to play them. The Hope Open was a perfect example. Dion crushed the field. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a 2nd tee box set up for him and the rest of the pro field? He even said, it is the kind of course that is just too easy for the Pro field in it's normal long configuration.

Dion and Nate have remodeled Adair for tournaments and that seems to work out fine. Why couldn't more of this be done? Or when new courses come online, they are built with the phases of Disc Golfer in mind? That is what has happened in Golf. New courses are developed that are able to be configured easily to accomodate the weekly duffer and the regional Pro. Few are able to accomodate tour events, however. The very special courses are set up for those.

The thing to remember is that in Golf, Pro's and Amateurs rarely ever play together in tournaments unless it is a PRO-Am for a charity. So courses can be configured for the pro game and it doesn't really matter what the am would shoot. With Disc, we are still putting pro and am out on the same layout many times in tournaments. I imagine that will happen less and less over time as the game matures and gets a larger sponsorship and audience base.


anyway, an ideal golf or disc golf course is built with the idea in mind to create a flowing, roller coaster ride for anyone who dares play it from the first shot to the last shot. Much like the USDGC this year. That means that the difficult pin placement on hole #7 is made equally difficult by the narrow approach shot on #8, followed by the insane shape shot off the drive on #9. These are examples, but a great course, short or long should challenge every skill level through all 18 holes. I don't think that means add more length necessarily, but add technical and well thought out shots that take into consideration the big picture. The big picture is did that course take my breath away? Did I have to think about every shot? Did it make me better?
If you have played a course like that, let me know. I want to move next to it.:cheers:

[Denny]

Well said

[smobro]

oh and one of things that Golf did was limit a players club selection. and dictate equipment specifications. Why not limit a Pro player to carrying a maximum number of discs in a pro event? You lose one, well, buck up little camper, you still have, say 13 left to throw. You lose 2, well,,,,
I know that would throw a monkey wrench into the pro disc game for a while. Some of those players have over 30 discs in their bags. At minimum, it might make the game more interesting to them.

[Kris C]

I like this idea^^^! My friends and I have done similar things (as I'm sure many of you have). Play a round with only 1 or 2 discs and your putter.

[snap7times]

Some have 40+... but yes, ball golf does have a rule on the number of golf clubs you can bring in your bag in tournaments. Doubt that would be a good idea in disc golf since there is a much larger variety in discs than there are in clubs, plus that would impact the bag market as well.
We just need to make holes more longer and more skill/strategy. Also think we should stop seeking out the longer flying discs and be content with the speed 13 family. The game has taken a dramatic jump since the wraith-destroyer-boss discs were released i believe? More challenging basket placement might impact putting to some extent?

I believe the direction that we have taken this year with modifying courses and playing par 58+ courses is the right one.

[Sean Phillips]

I've thought that disc golf baskets are too big for a long time. It makes putting too easy. The large basket also contributes to inconsistent putting results. Blow throughs could be decreased by a narrow target and bounce backs could be reduced by a shorter target.

[jevon]

Now all someone has to do is design and create a smaller basket. Every hole could have two baskets, an AM basket and a smaller Pro basket...

[Scott]

I wonder what smaller baskets would do for the popularity of the sport. Part of the appeal of disc golf is that players can be relatively successful after a short period of time. Would as many players stick with the sport if they could never hit a putt?

[papatart]

I wonder what smaller baskets would do for the popularity of the sport. Part of the appeal of disc golf is that players can be relatively successful after a short period of time. Would as many players stick with the sport if they could never hit a putt?

How has the difficulty of putting on a ball golf green diminished the popularity of that sport? I still see it on TV with thousands of people on the course watching while the top players make millions each week.

I too agree that putting is way too easy in our sport. If you look at our holes in this sport they are approximately1/3 the size of a ball golf hole. (i.e. 350 feet to 350 yards) yet the inverse is true of our putting. While we are upset at missing a thirty foot putt, a ball golfer is stoked about canning a 10 foot putt. We don't have to be very accurate and can generally throw as hard as we want if we are going to hit the chain because even if it doesn't stick then it just stops the discs next to the basket.

Want to have real fun, take the chain assembly off of you basket and putt at that. We do it every Howliewood and let me tell you it is unnerving. I am normally a hard and very direct putter and it is nearly impossible for me with my style to get the biscuit in the basket from outside of 10 feet. Yeah, it takes the signature chain sound away but boy does it ever make canning a thirty foot putt look very impressive!

Later,
Papa

[Chuck Kennedy]

An interesting consideration is why does the game and course design need to get tougher? It's apparent that this sport is much more interesting for participation than it is to watch. That means a bleak future for the pro side of our sport from the standpoint of generating sufficient viewership to justify getting significant sponsorship $$ to provide decent payouts so some might make a decent living from DG.

Perhaps we should abandon worrying about pros and increasing course challenges for their level of play and focus more on making the courses just that more enticing for rec and amateur play? That would be things like enhancing the amenities, variety and fun factors in course design but not necessarily adding length or tougher baskets. More players means more opportunities for entrepreneurs to develop private pay-for-play facilities that finally exceed the typical public golf course. Note what the "most powerful person" in golf is doing to enhance golf country clubs while ball golf overall is declining: http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/meet-the-most-powerful-person-in-golf-and-its-not-tiger-wood/19703153/

[smobro]

I've thought that disc golf baskets are too big for a long time. It makes putting too easy. The large basket also contributes to inconsistent putting results. Blow throughs could be decreased by a narrow target and bounce backs could be reduced by a shorter target.

What is the basket size relative to the size of a disc versus the hole size releative to the size of a golf ball? My guess is it is pretty close.

It is a stretch to compare putting in golf to putting in disc golf in any type of logical way. the only way you could make them similar is to dig a hole in the ground and require disc golfers to roll the disc in from an area specified as a green.

The beauty of an incredible golf course is the use of its natural terrain and the simplistic difficulty that it creates.

We don't have to have a windmill hole and a clowns mouth hole to make the game more interesting.

Disc is just different. It seems to me to be plenty difficult. The disparity of talent in our game is quite similar to the PGA tour and golf.

When the top pro's in the game are acing 50% of every hole they play in competition then it has become too easy. Until then, Disc up and let's do this.

[olydiscgolf]

I love waterslides!

[snap7times]

could try an event where the outer rim of chains are removed, leaving the inner 6-12 chains?

[Chuck Kennedy]

If you have a course with Mach 3 baskets, just slide the small ring holding the outer chains to the top of the pole and secure it with a twist-tie or two. That's a slick way to make the basket tougher temporaily with no chain removal.

[runnaman]

I too agree that putting is way too easy in our sport. If you look at our holes in this sport they are approximately1/3 the size of a ball golf hole. (i.e. 350 feet to 350 yards) yet the inverse is true of our putting. While we are upset at missing a thirty foot putt, a ball golfer is stoked about canning a 10 foot putt. We don't have to be very accurate and can generally throw as hard as we want if we are going to hit the chain because even if it doesn't stick then it just stops the discs next to the basket.

You have to remember though that professional golfers can drive a golf ball ~300 yards pretty accurately; professional disc golfers are driving ~133-150 yards.

And I don't think baskets need to be changed at all. In golf, you are putting a 1.68 inch diameter ball into a 4.25 inch diameter cup. In disc golf, you are putting an 8.3 inch disc (Aviar) into a 26 inch basket.

Those ratios are:
Golf - 1:2.53
Disc Golf -1:3.13

Very close.

And I agree with smobro:
It is a stretch to compare putting in golf to putting in disc golf in any type of logical way.

[Toby Puttzinski]

The homemade baskets at Lake Stevens were designed to create 'break' that mimics ball golf putting... putting on these baskets is much more difficult, especially if you're on the side of certain baskets that have 'blocker' chains/cross bar.

No, you google it, Adam.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m140/prerube/Basket3.jpg

O.k., so I gave in. This is one of the easier baskets to putt on out there, as it doesn't have any 'blocked' sides. As you can see, the basket has been segmented. Not only can the 'cross bars' deflect your disc, but many of the baskets have 1-2 segments that have 'blocker' chains that are difficult to fit through(a driver actually slices through better).

[smobro]

and my final point, I promise.

Why does disc golf have to become like any other sport? Can't it just be disc golf and be allowed to morph naturally?

For example, take the snowboarding industry. In 1980 I was riding a Burton Backhill with nothing but a safety strap and some rubber decking on the board to stand on. After school, my buddies and I would snowmachine into the Chugach Park in Anchorage Alaska and tow each other with ropes through the fresh powder. Hundreds of face plants later we got pretty good. Then one of the dudes bought a board with a rubber strap and we really could shred. then bindings came out and it was on! The ski mountains would not let us ride the lifts for years until we could prove proficient enough. We even had to take a "lift test" given by the ski patrol before they would let us on in 1983. But man that was the raddest day on the mountain I have ever had! We hiked a little to get to a better run, but it was so sweet to get a ride up the hill on the lift. EPIC! Now look at the industry. It is massive. All because the love of it and dedication by some key players to get rights to the mountain. Guys just simply would not give up and leave the resort owners alone about it. As more and more people moved to snowboarding and some of them became elite, competitions formed and resorts built snowboard friendly runs and parks. Today, any skill level can enjoy the same mountain. But what they didn't do is take on the Skier persona. They built their own individual persona. So, yes snowboarding and skiing are similar but should not become the same.

My point is, we need to be creative and innovate, but we still need to maintain the core of what makes the game fun for the masses as well as the elites. If the Elites and regional pro's are that bored with the game, then we should definitely take a hard look at course reconfiguration for them in PDGA events. Much like the HabRec where we played the am pads and the pros played the pro pads.

To be clear: I am in favor of these things:
1) making the basket slightly smaller in diameter
2) reducing distance between top of the basket at the top of the chains to the basket rim.
3) having alternate bakset and tee positions for pros during PDGA events
4) finding incredible topography and building epic new courses that will let all stages of the game have a great time.

I am not in favor of these things:

1) Windmills and clownsmouth holes during PDGA events

[General Scales]

If people like a challenge, replace the baskets with something like the ChingStrategy Putt. Go look at it at the Ching website. That'd definitely start adding strokes to everyone's game.

With that said, that thing is a bitch to.hit 15 footers on when its totally in the flat posistion. I couldn't imagine trying to hit 50 footers with obstacles in the way. This might be something that revolutionizes the way people play.

On a side note, Ed Hedrick made the pole hole cause when baskets were somewhat like this in the beginning (made out of chicken wire). He got tired of people throwing vertical drop shots (disc straight up and down) as opposed to flat like a frisbee should've been thrown.

Just something to consider...

[Adam Schneider]

I don't foresee them altering the "official" dimensions of the baskets -- there are thousands of standardized baskets out there now, and they'd suddenly be out of spec? Doesn't seem like a good move.

[runnaman]

I don't foresee them altering the "official" dimensions of the baskets -- there are thousands of standardized baskets out there now, and they'd suddenly be out of spec? Doesn't seem like a good move.

Agreed. I think adding longer holes to tournament courses is a better move that will make the course harder and keep it enjoyable.

What's wrong with being about to make a 50 putt anyway? We can't throw 700' accurate drives like golfers can. Maybe they need to make their pin cup (I guess I don't know exactly what they're called) bigger so they can make longer putts and be more like disc golf. :nahnah:

I'm just kidding about that last part, but seriously, make tournament holes longer but not gimmicky and I think that's good progression for the sport.

[Cajun]

The homemade baskets at Lake Stevens were designed to create 'break' that mimics ball golf putting... putting on these baskets is much more difficult, especially if you're on the side of certain baskets that have 'blocker' chains/cross bar.

No, you google it, Adam.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m140/prerube/Basket3.jpg

O.k., so I gave in. This is one of the easier baskets to putt on out there, as it doesn't have any 'blocked' sides. As you can see, the basket has been segmented. Not only can the 'cross bars' deflect your disc, but many of the baskets have 1-2 segments that have 'blocker' chains that are difficult to fit through(a driver actually slices through better).

I was hoping someone would bring up Lake Stevens baskets. Thanks Toby.

Every hole at Lake Stevens brings up a unique putting opportunity. It is similar to having to read a green in ball golf. In ball golf you have to play the slopes and angles. On the baskets at Lake Stevens you have to play the angles and be able to throw multiple putting styles and/or else be extremely accurate. Sometimes you have to putt extreme hyzer or anhyzer, you may have to putt like you are throwing a dart, sometimes a basketball, and sometimes a touch shot upside down turbo putt is in order (my favorite).

This easily adds strokes to ones game. You can putt dead on but you actually needed to come in to the left or right and that middle blocker drops your putt like a brick wall.

The course at Lake Stevens is somewhat technical but admittedly short so the baskets are a welcome challenge.

JUST THINK IF SOME LONGER COURSES HAD THESE STYLE BASKETS!!!

If you wanna shake up the game get a longer course with the Lake Stevens style baskets. Someone wake up Dr. Fred.

Let's start a DISC GOLF REVOLUTION YA'LL ! ! !

[Alright now which one of you is going to be the first to bash our great baskets? :nono:]

[Uhlman]

It is good to hear a Pro say the same thing I have said to my club. We need higher par holes. The Pendleton course has two par 4 holes according to PDGA Blue Tee Guidelines (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf) but only because of distance. A pro of Dion's caliber of could easily eagle them, as they are flat and open.

[Scott]

It is good to hear a Pro say the same thing I have said to my club. We need higher par holes. The Pendleton course has two par 4 holes according to PDGA Blue Tee Guidelines (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf) but only because of distance. A pro of Dion's caliber of could easily eagle them, as they are flat and open.

Great point. Distance alone does not make a good golf hole.

[runnaman]

It is good to hear a Pro say the same thing I have said to my club. We need higher par holes. The Pendleton course has two par 4 holes according to PDGA Blue Tee Guidelines (http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf) but only because of distance. A pro of Dion's caliber of could easily eagle them, as they are flat and open.

Blue tees are meant for people rated around 950. Dion is rated 1010, so I'm sure he could possibly Eagle those holes (I wouldn't say easily) because on the Gold tees chart, those two holes (550') are par 3s. For the Gold tees a Par 4, lightly wooded hole starts at 600'. That sounds right to me.

[Uhlman]

Great point. Distance alone does not make a good golf hole.

As I said in the longest hole thread Quality over Quantity. We need to design quality holes not just long holes. When designing a course, a good mix of a variety of holes is a lot more interesting than a bunch of straight, RHBH hyzer holes, or open holes that are all par 3. This is where the ball golf course design theory comes in. Having multiple tee and pin locations on gold level (1000 rated) courses and multiple pin positions on blue level (950 rated) courses is in my opinion are imperative. Knowing what kind of course you are playing or designing is important for knowing what you should expect from the course. On a blue level course, one should except to use a variety of shots, not the same throw and discs for every hole.

[Uhlman]

Blue tees are meant for people rated around 950. Dion is rated 1010, so I'm sure he could possibly Eagle those holes (I wouldn't say easily) because on the Gold tees chart, those two holes (550') are par 3s. For the Gold tees a Par 4, lightly wooded hole starts at 600'. That sounds right to me.
Well as the pars stand now he would eagle thoes two holes and probaly birdie most evey other hole as Pendleton is on the easy end of the blue level spectrum.

[emmarose]

... i truly believe that a good portion of the beauty of our sport lies in it's accessibility... both in ease of play and cost of play... it is the game of golf in a format that does not have to be an exercise in frustration every time you go out... i mean, seriously... i'm oregon's second ranked pro woman and i skipped every single day of p.e. in high school... there is some serious awesomeness in that situation...

... this does not mean that i'm down on finding ways to make tournaments more challenging for top pros, dion, as i believe that if the game became too easy for you then it would most likely lose it's sweetness for you, as well...

... but i did want to get my two cents in... as i am inclined to do... ;)

peace,
em