New courses versus improving current courses

[snap7times]

Curious, since I have lived in various parts of the country, what impacts a geographic area to think a certain way in course design and mainteance? For example; Washington has their courses with 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 different layouts on a single course, Oregon is hard working on putting new courses in the ground and very slowly works on the ones already in place and most holes have 1-2 placements that do not get moved often and California has courses that often have 3-5 alt pins per hole and the majority of the holes see the basket moved between alt pins on a weekly basis but hate that they are overcrowded and not enough clubs putting new courses in the ground.

I love Oregon courses, but hate the fact that the baskets almost never move. I love the idea of multiple layouts on a single course but hate the idea of them crisscrossing and overlapping dangerously and would be satisfied with 2 layouts maximum per course like multiple tees to same basket. I love baskets moving on a weekly basis to keep me coming back and working on my game but hate that the course is crowded and that there arent enough courses within a 30 minute drive....

Just curious what influences this type of course thinking in each area of at least the West Coast?
I find it interesting that Oregon is doing an awesome job putting new courses in the ground but does very little to add alternate pins to existing courses and move the baskets on an occasional basis, which is at a fraction of the cost and effort? And having awesome courses up in Washington be made so confusing when the extra layouts arent neccessary? Just wondering... Since I seem to be picking up a little bit of this thinking and a little bit of this etc. Jerry Miller DGC @ Camp Taloali will be seeing at least 6 more Alt Pins in the ground before Thanksgiving on top of the 4 that were put in a few weeks ago. And these baskets will be moving around all through the winter and spring until camp sessions begin in June. And we are working on finding tractor donations for the spring work parties to add longer teepads to at least 4-6 of the holes.
Just making conversation, since my other thread seems to be dying heh... but was awesome though...

[General Scales]

I think courses should always have an a and b layout at least. What I'd love to see is alternate tees that are legitimate and not just locally known. Alt tees and two basket positions are great. 3 alt pins and 2 tees are perfect.

[Scott]

I think it has a lot to do with availability. If land (and the willingness of the property owner) is available, new courses can go in. If land is tougher to come by, or local governments are harder to work with, then courses are tough to build. Local clubs then put their efforts into making the existing courses better.

[The Ombudsman]

Here on the east coast they like to put two permanent tees and two permanent baskets on every fairway. This allows for the courses to be played 4 ways without crossing fairways.

[Uhlman]

The course in Pendleton is in a busy multi-use park and the “front 9” usually needs approval from the parks and rec commission for anything that goes into the ground. When we put in the course in, we designed it to have two layouts that didn't cross each other except on hole 7 where the two layouts meet. The two positions come in perpendicular to each other and the away players should yield to the people closer to the pin. Does it always happen this way... no. Do I get upset at the people throwing on me... sometimes. I always try to explain to these people that they need to yield to the players closer to the pin.
On The “back 9,” we have permission from the parks and rec commission to develop it as needed because it is on undeveloped city owned property.
We are currently putting in tee pads for the “front 9,” Which should be completed this weekend. We have slated the “back 9” tee pad installation for this spring but may be in sooner if it there is no snow. Once we have our tee pads are complete, we are going to explore options for alt pin placements for the front and back nine. We would move the pin positions regularly to keep the course fresh.
As I said earlier, our course is in a busy park and as responsible disc golfers, we need to consider the other users of the park too, just as they need to clean up after and leash their pets.

[Tim]

One point of clarification--it isn't all Washington that has courses with multiple layouts like that, it's just 2 courses that happen to be fairly close to each other in Pierce Co. Most of the Washington courses are similar to the Oregon courses. I agree that all courses should have alt. pins, and if possible, alt. pads. The guys over on the peninsula are actually doing a great job of putting in more courses as well as enhancing existing ones. NAD has multiple placements and tees, and the pins get rotated on a regular and consistent basis.

I really like the idea of 2 pads and 2 permanent baskets per hole like what Michael's talking about. I hope that's a trend that becomes more common everywhere.

[Adam Schneider]

All things being equal (which I realize they're not), I'd prefer alt pads, because then the player -- not the guy with the keys to the padlocks -- can decide, "which layout do I want to play today?"

[sillybizz]

I disagree unless there is excellent signage. I've played Steili multiple times and if I were to go there and play I would still be trying to find my way around. I personally believe that if you do the layout right the first time you don't need a bunch of tee pads and baskets. NAD is a great example of where it works, Steili and Riverside are great examples of where it didn't work. Look at Seatac and the one basket, one pin layout they have, it's still in everyone's top courses list. A place like Lakewood isn't bad with the multiple pin placements and only one basket in at a time, this is much better than two tee pads or multiple baskets in at once.

[Tim]

One of the things that holds Seatac back is the lack of alt pads and placements. It's a great course, but could be even better. When people talk about multiple pads and placements, they're not talking about multiple (conflicting) layouts. Steilly and Riverside are unique entities, I haven't heard of another course in the world that does that.

[JR Stengele]

I disagree unless there is excellent signage. I've played Steili multiple times and if I were to go there and play I would still be trying to find my way around. I personally believe that if you do the layout right the first time you don't need a bunch of tee pads and baskets. NAD is a great example of where it works, Steili and Riverside are great examples of where it didn't work. Look at Seatac and the one basket, one pin layout they have, it's still in everyone's top courses list. A place like Lakewood isn't bad with the multiple pin placements and only one basket in at a time, this is much better than two tee pads or multiple baskets in at once.

It would be cool to see a few other pin positions on SeaTac, especially the back 9. Not necessary, but still would be nice. Almost all courses can benefit from multiple pin positions. It can help change it up a bit for locals, helps with erosion (rings around the basket), and allows for players to work on new shots. However, multiple tees can get confusing, can be wasteful and/or pointless, and not always be done properly (same shot but 10 feet behind the original). Sometimes, it does work, but rarely.

[Adam Schneider]

When people talk about multiple pads and placements, they're not talking about multiple (conflicting) layouts.
Tim's right... I don't know if anyone wishes for conflicting layouts. It'd just be nice to make the choice to play "the longs" or "the shorts" on any given day. If done right, the alternate pads can give an entirely new look at the hole (or the first shot, anyway), without causing confusion. Especially on 9 hole course, where dual pads can make for a passable "18."

Oregon is woefully short on dual-pad courses: Lunchtime and McIver are the only ones that jump to mind. Woodmansee (Salem) is working on it, and I really hope Stub Stewart considers adding shorts.

[sillybizz]

I hate alternate tee pads on nine hole courses, see North Park.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Not a single ball golf course has one tee per hole because they realize the course serves players of different skill levels at the same time. Same philosophy should follow for all DG courses even if funding isn't available for hard surface (or rubber) pads for more than one tee per hole at the beginning. The only exception would be a course that was so short that the one set would be at beginner level anyway. The clever alternative being used on some newer ski hill designs is to have either two tees or two baskets on each hole but not both. That way, two player skill levels are still served. But in steep sloped locations where doing tees and potentially steps or walkways is tricky and/or expensive, they can just do one tee and account for the two skill levels with two baskets instead.

Having traveled the west coast in the 90s looking at courses like Steily and Riverside and some others like Dela, it seemed to me the reason those multiple configuration courses were done was out of frustration in not being able to get more courses installed like we were doing in the Midwest, i.e. if you can't get variety from different courses, you get it by making multiple overlaying routing on the same property. My assumption was that land out west was more expensive, less available in metro areas and more difficult to get approved for disc golf due to more powerful special interest groups such as environmental groups that objected. Oregon at the time appeared to be a little farther behind on disc golf development than parts of Washington and California so perhaps didn't yet have the demand and frustration for more courses. Once disc golf ascended in popularity at the turn of the century, Oregon started coming on like gangbusters and found the environment easier to get courses installed more like the Midwest without the need for as many alternative tees or pins, at least in the initial installation.

[Adam Schneider]

I hate alternate tee pads on nine hole courses, see North Park.
That doesn't count, it's like 3 acres in a crowded city park! Most 9-holers have a little more room to work with.

[sillybizz]

Ball golf course tees are usually right next to each other and you can see all of them. Also there aren't other ball golfers shooting across your fairway or on to your green at the same time as is happening at Riverside and Steili.

[Tim]

I hate alternate tee pads on nine hole courses, see North Park.

That's another poor example to pick. North Park would be fine if it were were in, say, Skamakowa. But since it's the one course actually within Seattle city limits it's destined to be chaotic. It's also on the smallest plot of land I've ever seen a course on, and that doesn't help matters at all.

[sillybizz]

I know I'm in the minority on this issue. I'm prepared to take the heat. ;)

[sillybizz]

That's another poor example to pick. North Park would be fine if it were were in, say, Skamakowa. But since it's the one course actually within Seattle city limits it's destined to be chaotic. It's also on the smallest plot of land I've ever seen a course on, and that doesn't help matters at all.

OK, well Adam brought up Woodmansee Park. I just recently played there for the first time and though I didn't have any issues finding my way around I also had to tip toe around another group on the same hole who was on a different tee pad but I threw on the hole not knowing they were on the other tee because I didn't know about the alternate tee pad. If that group were like some of the people I have run into at North Park there would have been hell to pay for me shooting on the same hole without asking. Luckily they were really nice (just like the vast majority of people I have run into in Oregon) and let us play through in the fading sunlight.

[Scott]

I hate alternate tee pads on nine hole courses, see North Park.

A great example of pointless dual pads (2nd pad 10' behind the 1st).

[luckylaurent]

I know I'm in the minority on this issue. I'm prepared to take the heat. ;)

I think they are talking about alternate tee pads for the same hole, Northpark these are technically not the same hole your just going back through to play them again as different holes which sucks because it is too small and crowded. I think on a 18 hole where you can pick different teepads, much like an am and a pro teepad setup, this can be very beneficial.

[Tim]

A great example of pointless dual pads (2nd pad 10' behind the 1st).

I agree that's not a great solution, but NP is limited in the space it can use, to say the least. The alternative would be to just use the same pad twice. If you've got the extra 10', you may as well make use of it. Even on those holes where the tees are close to each other, the shot changes up more than you think it would.

Also, I've generally found most folks there are pretty friendly, it's the crowds of noobies out there that keep me away. I went out a month ago or so and almost got hit 4 times without ever hearing a fore.

Basically, NP would be a great course in somebody's back yard, but it's not well suited to a metropolitan area.

[sillybizz]

I agree that's not a great solution, but NP is limited in the space it can use, to say the least. The alternative would be to just use the same pad twice. If you've got the extra 10', you may as well make use of it. Even on those holes where the tees are close to each other, the shot changes up more than you think it would.

Also, I've generally found most folks there are pretty friendly, it's the crowds of noobies out there that keep me away. I went out a month ago or so and almost got hit 4 times without ever hearing a fore.

Basically, NP would be a great course in somebody's back yard, but it's not well suited to a metropolitan area.

This I agree with.

[snap7times]

Tim's right... I don't know if anyone wishes for conflicting layouts. It'd just be nice to make the choice to play "the longs" or "the shorts" on any given day. If done right, the alternate pads can give an entirely new look at the hole (or the first shot, anyway), without causing confusion. Especially on 9 hole course, where dual pads can make for a passable "18."

Oregon is woefully short on dual-pad courses: Lunchtime and McIver are the only ones that jump to mind. Woodmansee (Salem) is working on it, and I really hope Stub Stewart considers adding shorts.

Haven't read the rest of the posts yet but Jerry Miller DGC will be a dual-pad course and I find it interesting that some people call it the "AM-Pro" tee pads and others call it alternate teepads (which one is the primary teepad then?)
While I did say "Washington", I wasn't too sure how many others were like Riverside and Ft. Steilacoom, since I have only played 3 courses above Vancouver and 2 were those two. But my point was obvious.
There are some courses that are just stuck with 1-2 pin placements and stay in the same spot for 3-6 months, when they could move more often or an alt pin placement can be put in easily and fast. Continue people ;)

[snap7times]

OK, well Adam brought up Woodmansee Park. I just recently played there for the first time and though I didn't have any issues finding my way around I also had to tip toe around another group on the same hole who was on a different tee pad but I threw on the hole not knowing they were on the other tee because I didn't know about the alternate tee pad. If that group were like some of the people I have run into at North Park there would have been hell to pay for me shooting on the same hole without asking. Luckily they were really nice (just like the vast majority of people I have run into in Oregon) and let us play through in the fading sunlight.

At Woodmansee, I believe it is marked as hole numbers 1-18, not alt pads for 9 holes. Last time I was there, most of the tee signs if I recall showed which was hole this and which was hole that.

[Adam Schneider]

I find it interesting that some people call it the "AM-Pro" tee pads and others call it alternate teepads (which one is the primary teepad then?) )
In some cases one isn't necessarily harder than the other, just different. But does it matter what you call them?

At Woodmansee, I believe it is marked as hole numbers 1-18, not alt pads for 9 holes. Last time I was there, most of the tee signs if I recall showed which was hole this and which was hole that.
Again, does it matter? Call them 1A and 1B, or call them 1 and 10. Makes no difference when you play the course.

[snap7times]

In some cases one isn't necessarily harder than the other, just different. But does it matter what you call them?


Again, does it matter? Call them 1A and 1B, or call them 1 and 10. Makes no difference when you play the course.

Just saying what the club/course installers are thinking, they are installing the new tee pads with the intention of them being numbered 10-18. So if you play a quick 9, it'd be the "front 9" or the "back 9" still heh..

[sillybizz]

At Woodmansee, I believe it is marked as hole numbers 1-18, not alt pads for 9 holes. Last time I was there, most of the tee signs if I recall showed which was hole this and which was hole that.

:slapface:

it doesn't matter what you call them, it's still confusing! The course wasn't marked enough for me to tell there was another tee pad or "the back nine tee pad" and so there could have been a confrontation. Hell I'm lucky I even found tee pad two with that walkout!

[LJ Jubner]

I personally would rather play the same course over and over and over If I want something different I go somewhere else. I would rather see new courses go in then keep redesigning the old ones just because we can

the tac
First did you realize that the baskets are actually welded into the sleeves? That makes the moving of them problematic. It does however keep them on the proerty

North Pole was small before then add the little used walk on the East border and adding 9 more baskets was just a huge waste of resources (but par for the course at NP)

Chuck you ball golf tee analogy was correct. Realizing the superintendent needs to consider the wear and tear of the actual swings (divots) dictates when, where and how often he moves the tees around. I can offer the fact that pins are moved 3-5 time per week for the same wear and tear reasons (Ball marks)

[Adam Schneider]

it doesn't matter what you call them, it's still confusing! The course wasn't marked enough for me to tell there was another tee pad or "the back nine tee pad" and so there could have been a confrontation. Hell I'm lucky I even found tee pad two with that walkout!
Woodmansee is a work in progress. Give it time. They haven't even installed all 18 pads yet, as far as I know.

[sillybizz]

Woodmansee is a work in progress. Give it time. They haven't even installed all 18 pads yet, as far as I know.

I actually liked that course quite a bit and not just because I got my first FH ace there. :)

[JR Stengele]

I actually liked that course quite a bit and not just because I got my first FH ace there. :)

Still under 200ft.:yawn:

[sillybizz]

Still under 200ft.:yawn:

Thanks John, I appreciate that! No Birthday gift for you!!

[General Scales]

I think that alt pads should be used to change the s.s.a. That way you can judge your performance via the rating of said layout. This should be done only if its feasible. Theres no point in cramming in two pads that minutely change the play of the hole. Id rather see two quality pins since pins can drastically alter the way you play a hole.
With that all said, I'd still like to have one course near me that had a gold tee setup. Id like to throw one 1000 rated round.

[General Scales]

Stupid android double post, my bad.

[sillybizz]

Off with his head!!!

[WestsoundBT]

Speaking of WA state NAD's layout management...

Dual pad (red/blue)
Pin placement (a/b = short/long generally)

Here's the cool part. The course does play like 4-8+ different courses in one. The regular basket movement is half the baskets move each week. (odds then evens) So played straight up, there's red-allshort, red halflong (x2 depending on odds/evens), red all long, and all variations again from the blue tees. Each day you show up does only give you two options (red v Blue) if you stick with a consistent skill level pad.

Ok, so why is that so great. Well, isn't there always group of players interested in a red/short layout? Yupp - they can have it 25% of the time. At the same time, isn't there a group wanting to take on the bear of a blue/long layout? Again 25% of the time. 50% of the time its a mixed bag with the basket placements. If you gravitate towards one of the extremes, you'd better play when the gettings good.

Doubles there had been alternating red/blue pads, meaning you wouldn't encounter the same layout for at least 8 weeks. Lately a little more creativity has come to bear with declarations of "odds from red, evens from blue"etc. Based on the clockwork basket positions a few new experiences occurred. "Heaven and Hell" is now when you end up alternating red/short and blue/long for a roller coaster of go'fers vs strategic play.

I'd advocate being careful with dual baskets - as a new player there's nothing more confusing than more baskets than make sense. For some reason(maybe the ball golf association) dual tees are inherently less jarring to the newbie. "you mean I throw over that basket to get to that other one... wha?.."

Overlapping layouts happen other places than Steli and Riverside - the Charlotte area Renny Park and Hornets nest are well known examples, and even as a discer "in the know" - it got mind boggling for initial navigation...
BT