Throw and Distance Rule

[Nathan]

Do you like the throw and distance rule being used at the USDGC? Why or why not?

[runnaman]

I think it's good on the smaller holes, but on the long holes, it's kind of ridiculous, I think.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Here was a post I made on the NEFA Board along these lines:
Two-shot penalties should be reserved for shots that are way off the fairway (shanks), primarily off the property. I don't believe two shot penalty areas should ever be an integral part of defining or within fairways. They simply aren't necessary for creating proper risk/reward design elements. You stay on the fairway, no penalty other than sometimes a bit of distance if you short arm it. You miss the desired fairway on wooded holes or high rough, you earn near a one throw penalty with the amount more or less gauged by the "badness" of the shot. For example, landing somewhat off a wooded fairway will average less than a one shot penalty since you may be able to save it occasionally with a great next shot. You go farther offline in the woods, it may average a little more than a shot equivalent penalty. You go in a buncr, it ranges from a relatively short distance on a greenside buncr up to a full throw if the rethrow version is being used. You go OB, it's at least one throw plus some distance depending how far down the fairway you went out. In general, these penalties are roughly proportional to the "badness" of the shot.

With throw and distance OB, the penalty is not in proportion to the "badness" of the throw. It's one size fits all with the highest penalty possible no matter the degree of badness in your throw. It's all risk with little reward. Where it rarely occurs with lost disc or unplayable lie penalties as part of our regular rules, it's not as a result of specific features designed on a hole other than maybe not clearing the deep schule or prickers far enough from the fairway. Even then, it's not like the designer specifically "created" and unplayable lie trap or was trying to make a "lost disc" area.

[KenGilmore]

I'm not a huge fan.

- Overly punitive when you go OB.
- Causes even slower rounds.
- Only works when you have spotters to tell you in/out so you knew whether you had to re-throw or not. Otherwise, you would have to go back and then it is once again a judgement call from where you previously threw.
- Removes the reward from most risk/reward shots and really forces extremely safe play

[Scott]

I'm not a huge fan.
- Removes the reward from most risk/reward shots
It doesn't remove the reward, but it increases the risk.

[Bullseye]

A 1000 rated player from Finland who had just shot a 96 put it best. He said "I did not take two weeks of vacation, spent several thousands of dollars and flown halfway around the world just to play with my Roc all day".

The rule is overly punitive. Had a guy on my card yesterday hit the basket on the drive and it ricocheted OB. Retee! Almost aced the second throw, but it slid OB by 6 inches. Retee! He then threw a tomahawk that bounced right under the basket, but slid OB by about a foot. Retee! He ended up taking a 9 after four damn good throws. This crap happened ALL DAY. Yuck.

[TYVEK]

The rule is overly punitive. Had a guy on my card yesterday hit the basket on the drive and it ricocheted OB. Retee! Almost aced the second throw, but it slid OB by 6 inches. Retee! He then threw a tomahawk that bounced right under the basket, but slid OB by about a foot. Retee! He ended up taking a 9 after four damn good throws. This crap happened ALL DAY. Yuck.

i would say that he didnt learn his lesson very good. after the first shot went ob he should have just made a safe shot to be sure of being in bounds.

[ChUcK]

I wonder how this rules scheme would be welcomed if it was employed on a course with less OB?

[KenGilmore]

It doesn't remove the reward, but it increases the risk.

Yes, you are right. What I was trying to imply was that the risk/reward balance was now shifted so far to the risk side that it wasn't worth going for rewards. But thanks for clarifying.

[Ol' Bob]

Anyone here care to state, or link to, the rule?

On edit: I just found where Scott posted this: "Instead of estimating where the disc was last in bounds, you re-throw from the [original] lie, with a penalty stroke..."

[runnaman]

When a disc is thrown OB, the next shot is thrown from the same spot as the previous throw.

[Ol' Bob]

I could see both liking and disliking such a rule. There are definitely pros and cons. It will not likely apply equally to all styles of players.

My drive is so short I'd not be threatened (except for tree bounces). Where my only upside is ever going to be accuracy, the big arms will suffer more. I'd bet this rule won't generally last, as the big guns are the heart of the sport at the top levels. What if they gave a tourney and nobody went? The players will have something to say about how the game is played.

Now I'm going to go see the poll results.

On edit: No surprise there. ( I didn't vote.)

[Vector_2008]

I only like this rule if the disc never touched the inbound area of play.

If a disc slides on the ground across the OB line, play from where it went out. If your throw never touches earth and goes OB, you have left the course and must pay the price. This only works with OBs that are marked really well.

[ChUcK]

I only like this rule if the disc never touched the inbound area of play.

But Vector, any disc flying over the in bounds area of the ground is touching the in bounds area of play throughout its flight.

[Vector_2008]

But Vector, any disc flying over the in bounds area of the ground is touching the in bounds area of play throughout its flight.

Keep reading.

If your throw never touches earth and goes OB, you have left the course and must pay the price. This only works with OBs that are marked really well.

[blang11]

I'm not a huge fan.

- Overly punitive when you go OB.
- Causes even slower rounds.
- Only works when you have spotters to tell you in/out so you knew whether you had to re-throw or not. Otherwise, you would have to go back and then it is once again a judgement call from where you previously threw.
- Removes the reward from most risk/reward shots and really forces extremely safe play

I think Gilmore makes some good points here. Haggerty also summed up many players' feelings I'm sure about traveling all that way to throw Rocs all week.

[REDFIVE]

I didnt care either way until I saw what happened to Nikko on 14(?). 2 perfect drives that took very unlucky skips off a sidewalk. from an easy 3P to a 7. not cool. too much punishment for getting unlucky. Buncr rule is cool. 2 stroke penalties are not.

[Nathan]

I didnt care either way until I saw what happened to Nikko on 14(?). 2 perfect drives that took very unlucky skips off a sidewalk. from an easy 3P to a 7. not cool. too much punishment for getting unlucky. Buncr rule is cool. 2 stroke penalties are not.

Ya I watched that. It was rough.

[Bruce]

Essentially Nikko lost the USDGC the same way he won it last year. In the last round Feldberg threw 2 OB shots in the final round, but had the added penalty. While Nikko also threw 2 OB shots but on hole 17 and was able to use the buncr rule and just had to retee without penalty. At least this year the rule was consistent through the entire course...which I like better than having two sets of OB rules...

[Will of Doom]

A 1000 rated player from Finland who had just shot a 96 put it best. He said "I did not take two weeks of vacation, spent several thousands of dollars and flown halfway around the world just to play with my Roc all day".

The rule is overly punitive. Had a guy on my card yesterday hit the basket on the drive and it ricocheted OB. Retee! Almost aced the second throw, but it slid OB by 6 inches. Retee! He then threw a tomahawk that bounced right under the basket, but slid OB by about a foot. Retee! He ended up taking a 9 after four damn good throws. This crap happened ALL DAY. Yuck.

:shocked::shocked:

Wow. That's screwed up!!!

[smobro]

I didnt care either way until I saw what happened to Nikko on 14(?). 2 perfect drives that took very unlucky skips off a sidewalk. from an easy 3P to a 7. not cool. too much punishment for getting unlucky. Buncr rule is cool. 2 stroke penalties are not.


The lay up was the theme of the week.

I feel bad for him because they were amazing drives with bad outcomes, but he took the risk. It sucks but the smart play there was to lay up short of the path, lay up to the basket, make your putt, win your 2nd USDGC.

I do, however, feel like the stroke and distance rule took something away from the event.

Case in point, watching the distance competition was so fun because those guys were crushing drive after drive. I mean holy crap, Wiggins is 15 and he made it across the lake with a midrange! There is just something inherently awesome in seeing someone crush a drive. Even if it is your buddy who just threw 400ft for the first time, it still rules. The stroke and distance rule eliminates that part of the game entirely. It rewards safe play while making risk too punitive. Risk is what makes this game fun. Take that gotta make it, tight 250 ft anny line to the pin away and replacing it with the 175 foot gotta make it straight line lay up and I am bored and on to another game.

I understand course management is important, but damn, let them grip it and rip it once in a while.

The truth is, Schusterick is the story here. That guy won an event that was set up to be the most mentally intimidating 72 holes in DG. We gotta give him mad props! He really only cracked 1 time in 4 days and it didn't even faze him. And he is 18! OMG!

[papatart]

I've been waiting to respond to this to see what other's thought before I chimed in. I have been to USDGC 5 times and must say that over the years I have seen it change from a great course/event/tournament to a really confusing attempt at making disc golf into something it really is not.

I love the pomp and circumstance that follows the event and the fact that it becomes a truly grand event in so many ways. It has become diluted though with every rule change and rope maneuver that is made. It is kind of funny in the fact that the last year I played that 8 of the holes played as "island" holes and I made the comment that pretty soon they would all be that way. Whoops, maybe I shouldn't have said that.

Bottom line, the rule is positively ridiculous to use on the entirety of the course. While I am not a huge fan of the rule period, moderation should have been the theme here. I think the reason that I find the rule so silly here is that so many of the fairways are set up in such a way that even playing safe is not a given. I know for a fact that Barry Schultz and Ken Climo are two of the most consistent thowers ever and to see them take a 9 and an 11 on a hole is just not right.

One year I had five out of bounds in one round and the distance that all five shots were out of bounds added together did not equal two feet. That year it cost me five strokes. This year I would have been penalized at least ten strokes. Was that really a measure of good golf? Or just unfortunate luck? I know on hole three I went out of bounds twice-both times playing very safe and both times hitting just one foot left of a disc that had stuck on the green. Both times I hit dry grass and skidded just past the rope to be out of bounds. At no point was I unhappy with either shot, but just the luck of the bounce. A year earlier I would have canned the comeback putt for a circle three. The year it played as an island I ended up with a double circle 6. Nope, I don't think that it was a valid display of whether I had the skill to make the shot or not.

I think the funny thing is that now they even have a Mando on hole 4 that is the top of the tree to keep people from throwing the overhand shot at the pin. The funny thing is is that it truly is the best shot to throw as an approach as you then go over the trees guarding the basket to eliminate the OB issue. Now it seems that it has been taken away. Why would you feel the need to take shot selection away from people that have that arsenal in their possession?

Well, I know everyone says that I throw an event that has all kinds of weird rules and baskets and I shouldn't complain. Yeah, we call it Howliewood and the idea is that it is a tournament made so that everyone has a blast playing disc golf in a way that you NEVER would play it in a real tournament. I wish that the tourney that many think of as THE premier event would stop making me have to make up new things to be different......

I'm glad I got to go to USDGC early on and not only play and be humbled by the course, but learn how to play it and do well on it before it became the weirdenss that it is now. I still tell everyone that gets a chance to play that they absolutely have to go as it is an experience that you just don't want to miss. Now, I'm not so sure but maybe it's just me thinking back to what it was and wishing the good ole' days were back again.

Until next time, see you all at the REAL weirdo tourney Howliewood!

Later,
Scott Papa

[KenGilmore]

Thanks Scott. I appreciate your insight.

[chris7graham]

what scott papa said is very insightful you have been lately a person I look up to since my switch to discraft and I must say glad that someone chimed in that had something to say that will last a longtime thanks for all that you do for the sport of disc golf

[Getty]

The PDGA has 2 years to process feedback on this rule. Personally, I found it to be overzealous and made the event hard to watch. It seems like the PDGA is taking a couple of steps backwards with this rule adaptation and deciding to go to an every-other year rotation with Europe. I don't feel it's a good idea to implement experimental rules at one of the premier events in the sport, and I hope they rethink this.

[Bullseye]

Very well put Scott; particularly the paragraph mentioning Barry and Ken.

What happened to Nico on hole 14 of the final round is EXACTLY what happened to me. The funny thing was that I had yet to par that stupid hole so I was honestly trying to just par it. My attempt at a "relatively" safe drive to the area above the basket ends up rolling/skipping OB... twice in a row. Insta-7.

I've been waiting to respond to this to see what other's thought before I chimed in. I have been to USDGC 5 times and must say that over the years I have seen it change from a great course/event/tournament to a really confusing attempt at making disc golf into something it really is not.

I love the pomp and circumstance that follows the event and the fact that it becomes a truly grand event in so many ways. It has become diluted though with every rule change and rope maneuver that is made. It is kind of funny in the fact that the last year I played that 8 of the holes played as "island" holes and I made the comment that pretty soon they would all be that way. Whoops, maybe I shouldn't have said that.

Bottom line, the rule is positively ridiculous to use on the entirety of the course. While I am not a huge fan of the rule period, moderation should have been the theme here. I think the reason that I find the rule so silly here is that so many of the fairways are set up in such a way that even playing safe is not a given. I know for a fact that Barry Schultz and Ken Climo are two of the most consistent thowers ever and to see them take a 9 and an 11 on a hole is just not right.

One year I had five out of bounds in one round and the distance that all five shots were out of bounds added together did not equal two feet. That year it cost me five strokes. This year I would have been penalized at least ten strokes. Was that really a measure of good golf? Or just unfortunate luck? I know on hole three I went out of bounds twice-both times playing very safe and both times hitting just one foot left of a disc that had stuck on the green. Both times I hit dry grass and skidded just past the rope to be out of bounds. At no point was I unhappy with either shot, but just the luck of the bounce. A year earlier I would have canned the comeback putt for a circle three. The year it played as an island I ended up with a double circle 6. Nope, I don't think that it was a valid display of whether I had the skill to make the shot or not.

I think the funny thing is that now they even have a Mando on hole 4 that is the top of the tree to keep people from throwing the overhand shot at the pin. The funny thing is is that it truly is the best shot to throw as an approach as you then go over the trees guarding the basket to eliminate the OB issue. Now it seems that it has been taken away. Why would you feel the need to take shot selection away from people that have that arsenal in their possession?

Well, I know everyone says that I throw an event that has all kinds of weird rules and baskets and I shouldn't complain. Yeah, we call it Howliewood and the idea is that it is a tournament made so that everyone has a blast playing disc golf in a way that you NEVER would play it in a real tournament. I wish that the tourney that many think of as THE premier event would stop making me have to make up new things to be different......

I'm glad I got to go to USDGC early on and not only play and be humbled by the course, but learn how to play it and do well on it before it became the weirdenss that it is now. I still tell everyone that gets a chance to play that they absolutely have to go as it is an experience that you just don't want to miss. Now, I'm not so sure but maybe it's just me thinking back to what it was and wishing the good ole' days were back again.

Until next time, see you all at the REAL weirdo tourney Howliewood!

Later,
Scott Papa

[Chuck Kennedy]

It seems like the PDGA is taking a couple of steps backwards with this rule adaptation and deciding to go to an every-other year rotation with Europe.
This is 100% Innova. PDGA just acquiesces.

[Sean Phillips]

I like the throw and distance rule. However, I don't think it should be used if the fairway is only 50' wide. And it sounds like that's the case on many USDGC holes.

[runnaman]

Sean, I totally agree. Either get rid of the Throw and Distance rule or make the fairways wider. That's exactly what Eric McCabe said and I've heard many other people say that as well.

[RonTheWhip]

Far too punishing for the difficulty and "luck" involved on this course. I have one really horrible roll away story that cost me five strokes in my last round, but I saw this rule cost the best in the game many more strokes than that.

Super fun to play this year, and always an honor to represent OR at the US, but the rounds were more about not going OB instead of going for great shots. Too stressful.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Read the Wrap Up article: http://www.pdga.com/schusterick-seals-it and substitute Tiger and Phil's names in there for Will and Nikko. The ball golf world would be in an uproar. "Tiger chips from 125 yards, hits the cart path and goes OB. His caddy hands him another ball. He lofts a beautiful shot set to run up the green for a big save. Oh no, he hits the cart path again and the ball bounds OB. That's the tournament folks." The story for an event should rarely be about a rule change, especially one that affects almost every shot on every hole. It should be about the players excelling.

[GettinBetter]

I like it only if OB is not as tight as it was at the USDGC. Too much luck factor involved, widen up the OB a little bit and then I think it is a little more realistic.

[Uhlman]

It sounds like this was the rule on every hole. If you have a hole with a lake or some other "disc eating monster" I see this rule being fair but not for every hole. I hate when people try to fix something that isn't broken. Please don’t let this become an official rule.

[Getty]

Quote:
It seems like the PDGA is taking a couple of steps backwards with this rule adaptation and deciding to go to an every-other year rotation with Europe.

This is 100% Innova. PDGA just acquiesces. >>


That's absolutely ridiculous that the PDGA allows an outside entity to come in and make up their own rules, assuming this is a PDGA event or Innova puts up all the cash. Cuervo invaded Ultimate in the early '90's, got UPA sanctioning and proceeded to install their own rules. The UPA ended up revoking their sanctioning since we felt it was becoming a blatant attempt to dictate how the game of Ultimate, our sport, was to be played. It was a good move on our part even though some of the rule changes were pretty damn cool. The bottom line was this outside force telling us how to play the game could not be allowed to fly.

[Tim]

The USDGC has been a kind of testing ground for new ideas, some of them good, some of them not so much. Any of the rules they implement are ones that any TD can implement at their own events. A couple years ago, there was a similar rule at a local PDGA tournament (basically the same as throw and distance, but with the exception that if the disc touched ground before going OB, you could take the drop where it crossed over). Similar to the feedback players are voicing from USDGC, the players of that tourney weren't particularly happy with the rule, myself included.

The organizers said that they implemented the throw and distance rule to make the course that much more difficult this year. This is after they've added all the yellow rope and hay bales in years past. I know Chuck K. has said that Winthrop is the only venue that can provide all the resources needed for the USDGC. But surely, out of 3000+ courses, there's gotta be a better venue that can challenge the top players without the addition of artificial OBs and wonky/experimental rules.

[Bullseye]

As far as I know, the stroke and distance rule was designed specifically for the USDGC event, which is heavily funded by Innova. Yes, the rule was approved by the PDGA for this event, but it was done at the request of the tournament director. I think it is unfair to lay the blame at the feet of the PDGA. Now, if the PDGA instituted it across the boards, then, yes, we could rightly grab our pitchforks and head to the PDGA headquarters, but at this point I think its a little premature.



Quote:
It seems like the PDGA is taking a couple of steps backwards with this rule adaptation and deciding to go to an every-other year rotation with Europe.

This is 100% Innova. PDGA just acquiesces. >>


That's absolutely ridiculous that the PDGA allows an outside entity to come in and make up their own rules, assuming this is a PDGA event or Innova puts up all the cash. Cuervo invaded Ultimate in the early '90's, got UPA sanctioning and proceeded to install their own rules. The UPA ended up revoking their sanctioning since we felt it was becoming a blatant attempt to dictate how the game of Ultimate, our sport, was to be played. It was a good move on our part even though some of the rule changes were pretty damn cool. The bottom line was this outside force telling us how to play the game could not be allowed to fly.

[Chuck Kennedy]

That's absolutely ridiculous that the PDGA allows an outside entity to come in and make up their own rules, assuming this is a PDGA event or Innova puts up all the cash. Cuervo invaded Ultimate in the early '90's, got UPA sanctioning and proceeded to install their own rules. The UPA ended up revoking their sanctioning since we felt it was becoming a blatant attempt to dictate how the game of Ultimate, our sport, was to be played. It was a good move on our part even though some of the rule changes were pretty damn cool. The bottom line was this outside force telling us how to play the game could not be allowed to fly.
I don't disagree that it's an issue but not necessarily for the reason that Innova was overstepping with this approach. I hope to address that down the road with our PDGA decision makers, some who live in your "backyard." It's not that the rule was new or abnormal at all. But its application on every hole was not the way the game has been played by our pro players who qualified to get there. If Throw and Distance (TAD) was the required OB rule and fairways were lined with yellow rope in every PDGA event, or at minimum NTs and A-tiers, then at least people would have known and been practicing that version of our game all year long rather than having it sprung on them at the last minute.

The TAD OB rule applied everywhere is a significant change in scoring for our game and resulting ratings calculations. It's enough different that it fundamentally becomes a different game not just simply a more challenging course. Just look at the kind of scores and distribution on each hole. These are nothing like any other hole played with regular OB rules including earlier versions of USDGC holes with OB that didn't use the TAD rule before.

It's little different from all of a sudden playing the USDGC with only Super Class discs or baskets with a target zone half the height and width as our Championship baskets. There's nothing inherently wrong with these versions of the game. But would they really be the same as "standard" disc golf competitions as pros know it and practice it?

[Ol' Bob]

There is an old saying. It's: "Sh*t in the game."

That's the way it's looking to me too.

[Getty]

Thanks for the clarifications, guys! It was really cool to watch one of the premier tournaments in the world from my office, but it was also painful watching good shots get penalized so severely. I don't feel this is the right venue for experimental rules if the tournament is being live-streamed and considered to be a major, but if the players know that going into the event that there will be some rules variences then that's the way it is. The throw and distance rule is a real turn-off to the sport in my view.

[sassalicious]

not a fan of stroke and distance. If it became a regular rule, the game would change for sure (more for some courses especially). It's demoralizing to players that get the penalties, and it dosen't allow for a tight race at the end of the event, which is more exciting to watch and play... aren't we here to have fun?

I want to make a plea to all TDs... if you are going to amend a PDGA rule like this you are REQUIRED to ask for and recieve a waiver form the PDGA prior to using it in a sanctioned event. I am sick and tired of showing up at a PDGA event and finding out that the TD or one of their staff have decided it would be fun to try an amended rule they heard of or saw at USDGC on a whim without getting the OK to do so.

my $0.02 ;p

[Chuck Kennedy]

No waiver is required (but I think that should be changed). Here are the relevant parts from the existing OB rule:
803.09 B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from: (1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or (2) ... or (3)... These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).

[JMan]

waited some time to think it over...no it's dumb, on dry land that is. What they can't find dangerous enough terrain to play so they rope off imaginary boundries...no. The disc should be lost in water, or off a cliff for this rule to apply. If the boundries are imagineary why not the game, and the score.

Oh hey I aced the genius hole at Milo yesterday, came out L to R then panned back, caught a tailwind and BAM! f'in beautiful...Gonna do it again soon...

[Uhlman]

waited some time to think it over...no it's dumb, on dry land that is. What they can't find dangerous enough terrain to play so they rope off imaginary boundries...no. The disc should be lost in water, or off a cliff for this rule to apply. If the boundries are imagineary why not the game, and the score.

Oh hey I aced the genius hole at Milo yesterday, came out L to R then panned back, caught a tailwind and BAM! f'in beautiful...Gonna do it again soon...
That's about the only time I think it should be used.