PRO/AM Payouts

[dc1]

To get away from the EC; I thought I would bring this to a new thread. I know it’s been discussed several times, but it seems like things are changing more and more as the sport is growing. So, maybe it’s time to bring it all up again.

First, I am a MA1 player. I do like getting script. I also do question things when a payout seems low. I know its taboo to bring it up, but I guess I’ll risk it.

I don’t feel like amateurs have to get paid as much or even equally to what the pros get paid. After all they pay higher entry fees, and usually don’t get a players pack. I also have no problem with TD’s taking a cut for their time and dedication to putting on a tournament. If the majority or all of the sponsorship money is brought in by the TD then I feel it should be left up to the TD to decide where they want the money to go, as I believe it is.

I do however; feel that the costs of running the tournaments (park fees, printing fees for scorecards or whatever, pencils, OB strings, or anything else that is a cost to putting on the tourney) should be taken out equally from all the participants’ entry fees regardless of division. The one exception being the players pack, but if the pros get part of a players pack then that percentage should come out of their entry fee. I’m not accusing ANY specific tournament or ANY specific TD of doing this. I have talked to many TD’s, PROS, and AMS, in more than one state and I know that it can be a practice to take all costs of running the tournament from the amateur’s entry fees. To me, that is a form of subsidizing the PRO payout with the AM’s entry fee.

If the trend is to get rid of script all together, like some Pros have mentioned, takes hold, then I think that more emphasis needs to be place on better player packs and/or lower entry fees. I know these last few years it has seemed as if entry fees are going up, and payouts have been lower.

When I started competing about four years ago I could hardly scratch the surface of cashing in intermediate. So when I finally did, it was a huge accomplishment. The same progression happened when I started playing advance. Before I started consistently cashing I didn’t have extra discs, I hadn’t tried the full range of drivers and midrange discs, and I certainly didn’t have a stack of 4 or more putters that I could use to practice with. Getting script allowed me to start trying more discs. It also allowed me to practice my putting over and over because I was able to get 4 of the same putter. It ultimately made me a better disc golfer. In one tournament in TN I even won a basket, which tremendously helped my putting. My point is, that I think that script helps the amateur players get to the point where they can start thinking about playing pro, which in turn builds the pro field. I also wanted to say that when I started, I had many pros and advanced players not only give me tips, but give me free discs because they had extras from when they played AM and got lots of free plastic with script. I was always so thankful and in return I have given away a lot of plastic to intermediate players just starting out.

To finish my thoughts on this subject… I’ve looked through the events I’ve played over the last few years and the one constant that I’ve found is that there are always more (many more in a lot of cases) amateur players than there are PRO players playing in these tournaments. As we all try to grow the sport, let us think about that as a good thing, because today’s amateurs are tomorrow’s pros.

Maybe in the years to come, along with mixed tournaments, there will be more PRO only and AM only tournaments. I know that the NAAC this year (AM only) was a fantastic event!!!!

Dan Carpenter (don’t want to be accused of being anonymous)

[Bullseye]

This is a good discussion Dan.

Over the past 6 years I've been on all sides of this argument; Am player, Pro player and Tournament Director.

Lately, I shifted my priority to providing AMs with better players packs with slightly lower scrip payout. My feeling is this allows ALL players to take home something nice each tourney rather than only the people who play well. Another positive to this is that it takes away some of the motivation for an "always cashing" AM from staying in Advanced simply because they can win so much plastic. I still aim to have a solid scrip payout, but not over the top.

As for expenses...

Am players pack stuff is paid for by AM entry fees.
Pro players pack stuff is paid for by Pro entry fees.
Tourney expenses, park fees, volunteer players pack stuff etc... is paid for by everyone.

As a TD, I do not take anything for myself, but I fully support any TD who decides to take a small stipend for himself. Of course, this only stands if they have put together a solid event, with fair payout and the stipend stays within the PDGA guidelines. Seriously... anyone who has run a tournament knows they end up costing the TD money every time.

[Tim]

As a TD, I do not take anything for myself, but I fully support any TD who decides to take a small stipend for himself. Of course, this only stands if they have put together a solid event, with fair payout and the stipend stays within the PDGA guidelines. Seriously... anyone who has run a tournament knows they end up costing the TD money every time.

Depending on how merch/scrip is handled, scrip is often one of the only ways a TD can (legitimately) recoup some of those costs.

/in before bs arguments of TDs "ripping off" the ams with the cost/value of plastic

[Bullseye]

Depending on how merch/scrip is handled, scrip is often one of the only ways a TD can (legitimately) recoup some of those costs.

/in before bs arguments of TDs "ripping off" the ams with the cost/value of plastic

I'm not a big fan of "marking up" scrip to move funds around. I subtract all costs from the appropriate entry fees, and whatever is left (+ added cash/merch) goes to payout. I don't "mark-up" players packs at all. In a perfect world, at the end of an event I want my tourney account to have ZERO money left. Sometimes this is harder to accomplish than you might think, but that is the goal. For instance, at the ORDGC the players chose to roll over the ace pot to next year, so there is already $148 in that account for next year).

[SMOKIN JOE]

I don't have big events to run but they all come out at $0.00. Don't mark up anything. If I script out to other people I leave it to them.Never charge for my services. Don't like players packs unless they are donated items. Want new discs and stuff show up and buy some. Get some with your script. You should be rewarded more for winning or placing in such events. Big events should be full of people wanting and having a chance to win. Not just to get cool stamped discs and shirts. If you had to earn what you get at these big events. The fields would be closer together. Just my opinion.

[Tim]

I'm not a big fan of "marking up" scrip to move funds around. I subtract all costs from the appropriate entry fees, and whatever is left (+ added cash/merch) goes to payout. I don't "mark-up" players packs at all. In a perfect world, at the end of an event I want my tourney account to have ZERO money left. Sometimes this is harder to accomplish than you might think, but that is the goal. For instance, at the ORDGC the players chose to roll over the ace pot to next year, so there is already $148 in that account for next year).

Right, but say you buy a bunch of plastic wholesale for your event, do you pay out at the wholesale prices? Next Adventure certainly isn't giving their stuff away at cost when they give scrip for events, and I wouldn't expect them to either.

[Bullseye]

Right, but say you buy a bunch of plastic wholesale for your event, do you pay out at the wholesale prices? Next Adventure certainly isn't giving their stuff away at cost when they give scrip for events, and I wouldn't expect them to either.

I don't buy plastic to sell to players using scrip. As for Next Adventure, while they are not giving it away at cost, they're certainly not gouging anyone. Quite the opposite actually. Next Adventure gives us a bump UP in payout which definitely sweetens the pot for the players. Next Adventure has been an excellent partner, and the relationship has been good for all parties involved; N/A, Stumptown and the players.

[Scott]

I don't like the idea of trophy only for AMs, and would probably not play in any tournament that was structured that way. Here is why:

As a perpetually average AM, my goal for each tournament is to finish somewhere in the "cash". I don't have any delusions of winning. For now, finishing in the top half of the field is reward enough. But what if finishing in the top half offered no reward (other than first)? What is my incentive to play? There are many reasons to play - the people, the experience, the player's pack, etc. - but one of those reasons is the COMPETITION. What's the point of competing if I'm effectively out of it after the third hole?

Perhaps I should play down? Move back down from Advanced Masters to Intermediate? Perhaps? But what if people who are playing in Advanced feel the same way as I do? I feel that eliminating scrip (i,e. trophy only) would only cause sandbagging to increase.

[Tim]

I don't buy plastic to sell to players using scrip. As for Next Adventure, while they are not giving it away at cost, they're certainly not gouging anyone. Quite the opposite actually. Next Adventure gives us a bump UP in payout which definitely sweetens the pot for the players. Next Adventure has been an excellent partner, and the relationship has been good for all parties involved; N/A, Stumptown and the players.

Well, maybe you don't buy plastic, but lots of times TDs do, or scrip moves through the local club, or a pro shop runs an event, etc. I'm not trying to dis NA at all, far from it. You guys are lucky to have them down there, which I think most of you know (though many also take for granted.) Certainly I'm opposed to any artificial inflation, but I think it's perfectly fine for a TD, club, business, whathaveyou, value their plastic at retail, or close to it.

[sillybizz]

Does anyone still play tournaments to have fun? No, just me? Oh alright.

[Matt B.]

Does anyone still play tournaments to have fun? No, just me? Oh alright.

Is there some reason having fun and competing are mutually exclusive? Did you mean to say "just to have fun"?

[The Ombudsman]

I was thouroughly disheartened when I won scrip at a tournament and the vendor/TD had very little decent merchandise to redeem it for. I decided to just throw the scrip at raffle tickets only to later overhear the vendor/TD laughing to his buddy because he now did not have to pay me out anything. He told his buddy that he keeps a poor stock of merchandise on hand just so this will happen more often.

I won the same lame T-shirt in the raffle that I didn't want to buy with the scrip.

[Joshua Olmsted]

Very well voiced arguments Dan, as a player who has played in the am divisions for the past 6 years, slowly moving up, now in the solid middle to upper-middle of the MA1 field, I definitely agree that am payouts are certainly part of what I play for in tournaments, not that it would ever be the sole or even close to the top factor that informs what tournaments I play each year. As one who's disc golf career happens to coincide with being a student with consistently low budgets in life, I agree with Dan, script has helped me keep a full playing bag over time, even though I haven't come even close to winning more script than entry fees in the grand scheme of things. I shudder at the thought of major PDGA events going trophy-only for all am divisions for similar reasons that Scott voiced (sand-bagging, cash-line). I think players packs are a nice part of the tournament process, but if fees are still going to be in the 60 dollar range for MA1, I'd like to also play for some discs. Folks should still remember that the vast majority of competitive disc golfers are ams, and not all will someday reach the pro ranks.

[dc1]

Jeff, although I don't want to talk about specific tournaments or specific TD's, I have always thought your payouts were very good and more than fair. Thank you for the way you choose to run your tournaments. I will always support them.

Next I would like to say that we are more than lucky here in Portland that we have Next Adventure. If anyone from NA reads this. THANK YOU for EVERYTHING you do!!

As far as TD's, local clubs, dealers, making money on script. That doesn't bother me too much either. However it is magnified when the payout is low, and the discs are marked way up. If you win a decent size tournament and can only get two discs without paying out of pocket that can be frustrating. It is also disappointing if they have a very poor selection, but I think that evens out over awhile and AM's stop playing in those tournaments. Just like PROS stop playing in tournaments that they think don't pay well. Honestly in my experience that has rarely happened to me.

I just really don't want to see a trophy only PDGA tournaments. Like I've said I like getting script, I like playing thinking I could win some plastic. If I were good enough right now to play pro, I would. If I keep improving and my rating continues to go up, I'll move up because I like the competition. I like to push myself. But I also like feeling like I have a chance. If i can play on one of the top three advance cards with golfers that are all pushing each other, I'd much rather do that then play on the bottom couple of PRO cards where everyone could be in a pissy mood because they think they should be playing better and they're angry because they aren't going to cash. I do believe that playing up can make you better, and playing with PROs makes you better, but playing with people that have bad attitudes regardless of division only makes you better at ignoring the people you're playing with.

As far as the comment about playing to have fun. We all get something different out of this great sport that we play. For me, it's fun trying to win and place well, and it's fun to get rewarded for that. If it wasn't fun I personally wouldn't be paying $45-$75 to do it.

One last thing. It's not just about the money and getting script for plastic. I've seen TD's get creative with payouts. Having a basket that they got donated by Innova for the winner of a division. I believe the BSF and the OSDGC winners got a free pair of Keen shoes, bags, etc. I think that is all very cool too! Some tournaments have had really great players packs and a lower payout. All of that adds to the experience.

That reminds me, we are lucky to have Keen on board the DG community here in Portland as well. Huk-Lab too. It's pretty bad ass when you drive into a tournament and see the huge flags flying!! That always pumps me up to and gets me excited. The NW has a great disc golf community, it took me moving away to fully appreciate it. Thanks to everyone that is a part of it!!

[ChUcK]

I would play a trophy-only tournament, but at a seriously reduced cost.

I'd like to see more Pro-only and Am-only tournaments. What would that mean for payouts?

[Uhlman]

This is what, I think, many Ams and possibly some Pros look at when considering tournaments.
After playing in a tournament, I ask myself two questions
1: Did I have a good time?
2: Did I get my money's worth (i.e. players pack value, added extras like food and entertainment)?
Travel and schedule are of course a large part of this factor as I will travel further if I answered yes to both then if I only answered yes to one.
If I answer yes to both, then I will definitely be back for your next tournament.
If I answer yes to the first, but no to the second, then your tournament will be higher on my when considering my tournament options.
If I answer no to the first, but yes to the second, then your tournament will be lower on my list when considering my tournament options.
Finally, if it is no to both, then count me out for the next tournament you run.

[LJ Jubner]

First: Script is what a actor uses for direction and content
What we are taking about is Scrip

This is a timeless and well argued point in our community. I have run "Am II trophy only" several times now and have discovered that bagging goes down when the payout goes down (value not number) I wonder why?

Gone are the days of ..."2nd Place, here is your stack of blue Rocs. and the winner gets this stack of blue sharks, If you want something different Trade amongst yourselves." and the infamous Vargas PP of Towel and a mini.

Retail vs. Wholesale Again a tried and true argument. Jeff's model eliminates any speculation on what to buy an how many, NA takes care of that for him. When you say "bump up" do you mean more value for your dollar $1 in = $1.50 out kinda thing or does NA lower their wholesale price to the TD.

Value of Sponsorship goods and/or services
This is a tricky subject. Most sponsors believe they are donating something of value, but really it's not as big of a commitment as it might seem. That $10 coffee card from the local barista only has lasting value to the local who could use it more then once. TD's who try and equate this card with actual value (Oh by the way all the cards actually need to be used for the sponsor to pony up again) are just asking to be blasted.

Ever wonder when DG will change in regards to this issue?
NEVER!
There is too much money changing hands from the manufacturer/ TD or Manufacturer/ Brick and mortar.

What we really need is a constructive way to evaluate events. Players can vent and TD's gain valuable info all of which make our sport better.

[jshrack]

I know we have a site for course reviews... anybody thought of including a location for tourney reviews??

I played a tourney in Seattle and one in Portland this summer and they were amazing compared to some of the other's I have been to.
They weren't quite as friendly to the traveling golfer but the players and the TD's were amazing. I will be visiting them both again next year, given the chance.

[sillybizz]

Scrip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrip)

[Sean Phillips]

Well done Dan, you approached this touchy subject with tact and reason. :cheers:

I remember getting frustrated with AM payout a couple times when I played MA1. Different TD's take different approaches to the AM/Pro payout balance. Over time, I figured out which ones tipped the scales one way or the other. It's their event and they have the right to do so. As a player, I have the right to choose which events I participate in. (capitalism at work)

My thoughts on the subject are right in line with Mr. Carpenter's and Hagerty's. I think that is a fair way to approach the balance without diminishing the player's motivation to move up.

[Eric Olson]

I am an am player. I rarely play tournaments other than weeklies and such. Mainly because the entry fees are disproportionately high versus going out to the park and playing golf for the cost of a parking pass.

If you were to ask someone like me what it would take to get me out for more tournament competition here is the answer you'd get:

I'd love to test my game competitively vs other am players for around 20 bucks or less. I don't need t-shirts or player's pack discs or whatever, and I doubt I need to kick in an extra 10 bucks to fund the PDGA to find out if I am a better golfer that day than the next am. Eliminate the cheesy giveaway items and extras and eliminate the need to pay for them with higher entry fees. Use whatever percentage of the entry fees necessary to keep the event financially viable for the organization running it, and whatever is left over can be distributed as scrip for prizes. It would be hard to complain about payouts if the cost to play is severely reduced. It seems like a lower price point for entry would increase accessibility and lead to more interest and bigger fields as well.

Summary: Lower entry fees for ams. No player's packs or other superfluousness to drive up cost.

This seems so simple to me, and yet there are so many strong and conflicting opinions about it. I must be missing a piece of the puzzle somewhere since I am mostly out of the loop on the details of tournament organization, so forgive me if this sounds naive. Just trying to shed light on another point of view I haven't seen expressed.

[runnaman]

It sounds like you just want a weekly.

The $10 PDGA fee for non members helps pay for insurance and things like that.

Most people that I talk to want something to remember a tournament with, that's what player packs are for.

Also, part of the reason entry fees can be higher is because the TD has reserved the park, that's not cheap.

As far as payouts go, I think whoever wins or places well in their division should be rewarded and not just get "whatever is left over".

But that's just my opinion.

[Kevin Madrid]

I am an am player. I rarely play tournaments other than weeklies and such. Mainly because the entry fees are disproportionately high versus going out to the park and playing golf for the cost of a parking pass.

If you were to ask someone like me what it would take to get me out for more tournament competition here is the answer you'd get:

I'd love to test my game competitively vs other am players for around 20 bucks or less. I don't need t-shirts or player's pack discs or whatever, and I doubt I need to kick in an extra 10 bucks to fund the PDGA to find out if I am a better golfer that day than the next am. Eliminate the cheesy giveaway items and extras and eliminate the need to pay for them with higher entry fees. Use whatever percentage of the entry fees necessary to keep the event financially viable for the organization running it, and whatever is left over can be distributed as scrip for prizes. It would be hard to complain about payouts if the cost to play is severely reduced. It seems like a lower price point for entry would increase accessibility and lead to more interest and bigger fields as well.

Summary: Lower entry fees for ams. No player's packs or other superfluousness to drive up cost.

This seems so simple to me, and yet there are so many strong and conflicting opinions about it. I must be missing a piece of the puzzle somewhere since I am mostly out of the loop on the details of tournament organization, so forgive me if this sounds naive. Just trying to shed light on another point of view I haven't seen expressed.

I would have to agree with you...this was the norm....BACK IN THE DAY :wink2:. You could wake up on Saturday and remember there is a tourney in Eugene...drive down and sign-up for 20-25 bucks and play a one day tourney (two rounds) and go home. I do miss those days...I can't give up my weekend for a two day tourney.

[Tim]

I've always liked having some sort of souvenir from a tournament, be it a disc, shirt, whatever. I always try to have a little something to give players when I run tournaments. To illustrate what I was talking about earlier with recouping costs, here's a lesson learned the hard way from my experience:

Last year, I ran a casual little tournament, and thought that it'd be cool to give away pint glasses in the player pack--seemed like a good idea, everybody can use a pint glass, they're relatively inexpensive, and you don't have to worry about sizes or anything. The only issue is that you've got to order them in advance and make sure you have them in hand before the tourney. Disc golf being what it is, oftentimes players don't register until a few days before, or even the day of, so even though I wasn't sure what the final numbers would be, I ordered 72 glasses just in case (the tournament capacity).

I forget what the exact numbers were in the end, but I think it ended up being about 2/3 full. So, I ended up with a surplus of pint glasses. I could have reimbursed myself by taking a bigger chunk out of players' entry fees, but that didn't seem right to me. So, I ended up eating the cost. I did all the scrip with a local vendor, which did take away the headache of handling scrip and inventory on my own. But while I was handing over a fat envelope to him, I was losing money from my overhead with the glasses. Had I had an inventory of my own, I could have at least cut my losses.

Fortunately, as I said, the glasses were relatively inexpensive so I didn't take too big of a hit. If I had discs or t-shirts or something, then I would be in a much less pleasant situation. Still, no matter the amount, it's a bummer to devote a bunch of your time and energy to a weekend, and still come out of it in the red.

On a side note, I've heard of people jacking up the value of their player packs (i.e. getting a t-shirt for $6 but charging the player $15), but I don't know that I've ever seen that in reality.

On another side note, anybody wanna buy a pint glass for cheap?