Ahead of the curve! Who sets par for any course?

[LJ Jubner]

Who sets par for any course? Designer? TD? Players? pDGA?


If you ask me (and even if you don't) it's the designers decision alone not only where the holes go or how it flows but what par is!!!!!

I heard the argument of a drive and two putts equals par. I say bull!!! You are trying to use a ball golf rational for a sport that has only about 10% the hazards of ball golf.

Is there any fairway bunkers or sand traps on the DG course? NO!

Do DG'rs worry about grass between the disc and their hand? NO! in ball golf they do.

How DG is all "Lift, clean and place" but not so in ball golf. (mud does effect a balls flight)

How much bigger is the disc/basket area then the ball/cup in ball golf?

Disc/Basket 7" diameter disc, Basket normal basket is about 30" in diameter + the 24" the chains hang down =720 cubic inches

Ball/Cup 2" diameter ball 4" diameter hole (and no chains hanging down) When you putt the flag comes out

We won't even talk about swing vs throw.

[Magilla]

I like the "Best achievable score plus 2" method of setting par on an individual hole.
On the courses I have either designed or had a part in designing, it has worked out just fine.
I have kept records of strokes taken, during tournament play, on each hole to verify my methods.

:cheers:

[mrDROCK]

Who sets par for any course? Designer? TD? Players? pDGA?


If you ask me (and even if you don't) it's the designers decision alone not only where the holes go or how it flows but what par is!!!!!

I heard the argument of a drive and two putts equals par. I say bull!!! You are trying to use a ball golf rational for a sport that has only about 10% the hazards of ball golf.

Is there any fairway bunkers or sand traps on the DG course? NO!

Do DG'rs worry about grass between the disc and their hand? NO! in ball golf they do.

How DG is all "Lift, clean and place" but not so in ball golf. (mud does effect a balls flight)

How much bigger is the disc/basket area then the ball/cup in ball golf?

Disc/Basket 7" diameter disc, Basket normal basket is about 30" in diameter + the 24" the chains hang down =720 cubic inches

Ball/Cup 2" diameter ball 4" diameter hole (and no chains hanging down) When you putt the flag comes out

We won't even talk about swing vs throw.


I don't understand what points you are trying to make between ball golf pars and disc golf pars. Your reasoning leads to the thought that ball golf is tougher than disc golf, yet your opening question leads us to think disc golf par should be more than 3 shots per hole. It this correct? Does anybody else see where Jubner is going?

[jshrack]

First of all, yes, designers and TD's should have say on PAR for a particular course or for a particular event.

That said, I have read that a disc golf PAR should be set up such as:

It is a PAR 3 unless otherwise posted.
If a pro CAN reach putting circle in their drive then it is a legit par 3.

Many holes are posted as more than PAR 3 so...
To set par on these, as I understand, take the number of shots a pro COULD (not would) reach the circle in, then add 2.

I find this sets most holes at a PAR 3 anyway.
This is not a perfect system as I have seen Climo get drop in eagles (hole 12 at Winthrop) but it works for the most part.



As for the jargon relating Ball vs. Disc Golf... Who the F*%k cares.
If it's that big a deal, play ball golf.
I personally find that your arguments are misplaced... Yet I am circumventing the argument and restating, who cares.

[Chad_from_BC]

By PDGA it's drives to the green plus two putts. How far a 'drive' is is open to debate I guess, but I'd say it's for the 'average' player.

[Chuck Kennedy]

By PDGA, the guideline for par is this table and it depends on the skill level a layout is designed for. http://www.pdga.com/documents/par-guidelines

If you aren't designing for a specific skill level, you aren't designing but just putting tees and pins in the ground.

[sillybizz]

I think this is pretty smart thinking:

http://sites.google.com/site/discgolfcoursedesign/Home/par/CRpar

[Chuck Kennedy]

Essentially another way to get to the PDGA Par guide.

[ROC]

If you really think about it pars don't even matter, everybody else is playing the same holes with the same par.

[TYVEK]

jub,

most disc golf courses dont have sand traps, but a well placed bush or area of long grass is the equevilent of a sand trap. also since you are comparing disc golf courses with ball golf, how many ball golf courses have fairways that are peppered with trees that you have to shoot though??? i would say NONE.

the point i am trying to make is that each has its own difficulties for the equipment you are using, and you cant try and argue that disc golf has less hazards than ball golf. disc golf has just as many hazards if not more. sure mud makes your ball fly a bit differently, but the same can be said with a disc. so in each instance you clean it off before your next stroke.

there are legitimate par equations out there and Chuck Kennedy posted a link for you to look at. I deffinately dont think the ultimate par for a course is up to the designer only. i think that they should include a suggested par in their design proposal, and take into account PDGA guidlines and the skill level of the players and the different tee pad placements if there are multiple tee pads.

I also think that your argument is misplaced here and it seems like you are just trying to stir a little crap for some reason or another. Par for a hole has to give a reasonable chance for birdie, that is the simplified basics of how to come up with a par. if you want a course that is 10,000 feet long with a par of 50 then go build your own course on your own property.

[sillybizz]

I know of so many people who still think that what the par is matters on how hard the course is. I can make every hole out at Seatac a par 1 but does that make it harder? NO! I can make every hole at Seatac a par 16, now does that make it easier? NO. So why does it matter what the par is for a hole?!?!?! "Par" is essentially an easier way to keep score for you lazy hippies that could never figure out 2nd grade math. 3+4+2+... "OUCH, my head, too much thinking". :rolleyes2:

[RonTheWhip]

If you really think about it pars don't even matter, everybody else is playing the same holes with the same par.

Not true. Par does matter, both mentally and...

1.5 Practice Rounds and Tee Times

B. (2)

"...If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown by then, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole..."

So, depending on how a par is set, someone could unfairly benefit from this rule. What if you and your ride arrived just a few minutes late to find you start on different holes with different pars. Someone gets a 7 and someone else gets an 8 or whatever, as it should be. But by the mentality of everything is a par 3, that would not happen. Something to think about.

The mental aspect of par has been studied and documented several times in ball golf. There is a wonderful article regarding birdie putts vs par putts of comparable difficulty. The study shows how a birdie putt is missed more often than that of a par putt (due to the added pressure and mental stress on the players behalf). Found here: Article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/16/sports/golf/16study.html)

So, in my mind, par matters. I have a problem with people who say everything is par 3 in disc golf, because...its not. Just my thoughts...

[RonTheWhip]

Who sets par for any course? Designer? TD? Players? pDGA?


If you ask me (and even if you don't) it's the designers decision alone not only where the holes go or how it flows but what par is!!!!!

I heard the argument of a drive and two putts equals par. I say bull!!! You are trying to use a ball golf rational for a sport that has only about 10% the hazards of ball golf.

Is there any fairway bunkers or sand traps on the DG course? NO!

Do DG'rs worry about grass between the disc and their hand? NO! in ball golf they do.

How DG is all "Lift, clean and place" but not so in ball golf. (mud does effect a balls flight)

How much bigger is the disc/basket area then the ball/cup in ball golf?

Disc/Basket 7" diameter disc, Basket normal basket is about 30" in diameter + the 24" the chains hang down =720 cubic inches

Ball/Cup 2" diameter ball 4" diameter hole (and no chains hanging down) When you putt the flag comes out

We won't even talk about swing vs throw.

First, I agree with Chuck, if you aren't designing for a specific skill range, than all you are doing is dropping baskets and pads in the woods...

That being said, a good designer should ultimately be the person to settle disputes regarding pars. However, a tournament director gets to do whatever they want (as far as their event is concerned), so if they change pars on a course for the purpose of their event so be it.

Oh, and your argument regarding the differneces in the sport is ridiculous. Honestly, very lame. Oh, thanks for pointing out the obvious...we don't play the same sport as ball golfers...got it.

Oh, actually, I do care about the grass in between my disc and my hand, and usually remove it. I've found that having a grassy grip really does a number on my accuracy.

[jshrack]

I think the PDGA took the system one step further by just adding the SSA system in 2002.
True, it's mostly used to rate the players but with some work you can figure out your course ratings as well... as long as sanctioned tourneys have run there.
http://www.pdga.com/course-ratings-by-course?

My local course has a PAR of 54, standard for an 18 basket course.
My local course had an SSA of 49.44 in it's last tourney, meaning the average "PAR" player on a standard difficulty course would probably score a 49 or 50 on our layout.
Different Tees, Baskets, and weather can all effect a course difficulty.

Par gives everyone a goal to shoot for and use as a gauge to improve.
I am still lookin for my first even round and will celebrate the day.
:headbang:(so many +1's)

[Ol' Bob]

I can't read this without thinking of our 10th hole. It's about 450' to the turn of the narrow dogleg left, which itself usually demands a slight arc to the right from most well placed approach shots (mostly second shots). I remember when Fletch and Lowell were laying out that hole, as its my front yard. I've always argued it should be a par 4. In the 8 years it's been there, I've only witnessed one tee shot making it around the dogleg into a position for a reasonable putt (and he was a pro with a big drive). That putt was missed. I've been told it has been birdied/deuced, but I've never seen it in many thousands of attempts. It had been there about two years when, playing with Lowell, I heard him exclaim, "I finally parred it!" He's parred it many times since then, but I'm only getting it in three about once a year. Before I ripped out my pectoral muscle and lost 50 feet off my drive, I used to get the 3 in about one round in a hundred. Anyway, I'm still lobbying for it to be a par four.

[TYVEK]

I think the PDGA took the system one step further by just adding the SSA system in 2002.
True, it's mostly used to rate the players but with some work you can figure out your course ratings as well... as long as sanctioned tourneys have run there.
http://www.pdga.com/course-ratings-by-course?

My local course has a PAR of 54, standard for an 18 basket course.
My local course had an SSA of 49.44 in it's last tourney, meaning the average "PAR" player on a standard difficulty course would probably score a 49 or 50 on our layout.
Different Tees, Baskets, and weather can all effect a course difficulty.

Par gives everyone a goal to shoot for and use as a gauge to improve.
I am still lookin for my first even round and will celebrate the day.
:headbang:(so many +1's)
actually the SSA for a course is what a 1000 rated player would shoot on a average round. and most of us are not 1000 rated players or close to that, so course SSA is a high acheivment to shoot for, it is not par for a average round.

[Bullseye]

All I could think about while reading this thread is how absurd it is to keep hearing people claim Sea-Tac is par 54.

[sillybizz]

All I could think about while reading this thread is how absurd it is to keep hearing people claim Sea-Tac is par 54.

What he said.

[Skookum]

One could argue that Par is not set but defined.

If you decide that the the PDGA sets the standards for what discs you use and what targets you throw at, it would stand to reason the their well documented guide lines for par would be our common definition.
If you want say a particular hole is more or less stokes than what PDGA guide lines would call it (this include SSA calculated par) maybe call it something other than par, while the rest of us will use the term "par" so we can maintain a shared vocabulary that doesn't require constant qualifiers i.e. "real par 3" or "should really be a 4".

[Pizzel]

All I could think about while reading this thread is how absurd it is to keep hearing people claim Sea-Tac is par 54.Agreed!

[Kenny B]

All I could think about while reading this thread is how absurd it is to keep hearing people claim Sea-Tac is par 54.

My thoughts exactly!

[Bullseye]

Agreed!

I see Sea-Tac par as being somewhere between 58 and 60.

Almost certainly Par 4s:
Hole 12
Hole 14
Hole 16
Hole 17
Hole 18

Could possibly be called par 4s.
Hole 11 - a 2 on this hole is possible, but very tough.
Hole 15 - same same.

Yes, these last two are questionable, but a 2 on either of these holes would be simply amazing. If the high route on 11 were to be opened up again I'd say it would drop back down to a 3.

[TreeLove]

I vote that hole 15 is also a par 4, despite the fact that a few rare psycho pros can occasionally deuce it....

[Tim]

Could possibly be called par 4s.
Hole 11 - a 2 on this hole is possible, but very tough.
Hole 13 - same same.

Yes, these last two are questionable, but a 2 on either of these holes would be simply amazing. If the high route on 11 were to be opened up again I'd say it would drop back down to a 3.

You've gotta be thinking 15, not 13, right? Both 11 and 13 have been aced, so I think that effectively takes them both out of par 4 territory. But I don't think there's anything wrong with a par 4 being potentially twoable, that's just an eagle. Heck, I forget what distance was, but I remember Skellenger managed to two a par 5 hole at USDGC a couple years ago.

[Bullseye]

You've gotta be thinking 15, not 13, right? Both 11 and 13 have been aced, so I think that effectively takes them both out of par 4 territory. But I don't think there's anything wrong with a par 4 being potentially twoable, that's just an eagle. Heck, I forget what distance was, but I remember Skellenger managed to two a par 5 hole at USDGC a couple years ago.

Yes, you are correct. 15 is the one I was talking about. I'll go correct my post.

[sillybizz]

Seatac was built with the open players in mind, correct? Well if you look at the results of the first round at Seatac (Duel Nature) and do some math you will see that the average score of the open players for the first round was a 60 (+6). If you correct the pars at Seatac with making holes 12, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18 all par fours then the average score at Seatac for open players would still be PAR(60). This seems to make more sense.

[jshrack]

actually the SSA for a course is what a 1000 rated player would shoot on a average round. and most of us are not 1000 rated players or close to that, so course SSA is a high acheivment to shoot for, it is not par for a average round.

I said standard difficulty before, meant 'PDGA standards' which are hard. Overall you basically said the same I said, just in different words.
A 1000 rated player would be expected to score an even 'PAR' on "the perfect difficulty course" as judged by the PDGA.

Look at Ball Golf though, Most PGA tourneys have less than 10 pro's playing better than PAR on each round. And when you look, it's almost always 10 of the top 20 players in the world. It is a very tough level of play to keep up.
SSA reflects that at a professional level.

[Ol' Bob]

In watching the Open Championship from St. Andrews last week, I kept hearing the commentators speaking of, "birdie holes." Obviously, certain holes will always favor certain kinds of players. A lot of those big-arm guys just hit trees harder than the rest of us. A wimp who can miss the trees can't fire off those long open shots that require nothing more than big D. It all gets pretty subjective.

[jshrack]

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParHistory.pdf

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGACourseDesignGuides2009.pdf

[Yoduh]

Hole 11 was "aced" When the trees were way thinner up top. An "ace" right now on that hole is an ace on a par for.. an albatross. Seatac is a par 60. The average hole scores are well over 3.5 it is a par 4 wether or not it is an easy par 4 or not. just because it is an easy par 4 doesn't mean that pros aren't going to take 5's or worse. I remember at last years Jetwash some one (I think it was Stephen) got a 2 on 15 because he punched a sick drive up the middle and hit a 40' putt. When I played with him on the second round he punched his drive again a little left and ended up with a 6. I went 3/4 on the day beating him by 1 on the day..

[cefire]

Hole 11 was actually aced this year (see exhibit A (http://www.nwdiscgolfnews.com/forum/showthread.php?p=30193&highlight=seatac#post30193)) - trees would have been about the same...

Average number of strokes taken on a hole has nothing to do with assignment of par - see the old hole 17 at Winthrop where scores average WAY higher than 3 for a short open par 3 hole. Par is assigned on an individual hole basis (when done correctly) so ratings (which take into account scoring across an entire round 18+ holes) also have nothing to do with assignment of par.


I'll add in that the top players birdie hole 17 with some consistency - I'd vote for it as a par 3 even though only the very elite are getting up there for their putts.

[Chuck Kennedy]

FYI, hole 17 at Winthrop averaged 3.3-3.4 in 2008-2009 making it a par 3 based on scoring average as originally intended. But it took years to get the design to deliver that until they went to the buncr rule structure in 2008.

[Nate Sexton]

Why is everyone so scared of "reachable" par 4s? Hole 17 at SeaTac is obviously a par 4 in my mind. It is pretty insane to make a 2 on the hole and that is what an eagle should be. Let us have an eagle every once in a while...it makes everyone happy!

[cefire]

Good point Nate...its just tough to know when that crossover to a different par should occur. When I last played a Seatac tourney, the other three guys in my first round group all had 45ft or less putts on that hole (2 made them) so I figured it was becoming not out of the ordinary to get that one.

For hole 17, I was referring to the "old" hole without the buncr rule. The hole of death version :) Out of curiousity Chuck, do you have the ave scoring for that too, maybe like 2003 or so?

[Chuck Kennedy]

The scoring average on hole 17 ranged from 2.8-3.2 from 2001 thru 2003. Then it was 3.6-3.9 from 2004 thru 2007. Then back to 3.3-3.4 with the buncr version.

[Tim]

Wow, that's lower than I thought, after hearing about horror story meltdowns on that hole in the past. I guess there were enough scores to effectively nullify the outliers. Can you give a quick history of the OB rules on 17 in its different eras?

[Chuck Kennedy]

It was fully written up in the fifth issue of Flying Disc Magazine. It's not online that I'm aware of.

[GettinBetter]

I think we can all agree that it is absurd to call SeaTac a par 54 course. If you shoot 54 you already have a rated round higher than 1000.

[ChUcK]

Alls I know is when I score a 3 on holes 4, 12, and/or 14-18 I get a nice warm feeling inside, not unlike the first sip of a Bulleit on the rocks.

[Altophish]

Par is a funny thing, right? Half the people don't care at all and the other cares a LOT.

So this is my personal opinion but for what it's worth I think the idea of the gold, blue, green, blah blah blah, is a stupid idea. Who does it really help? When ever I take someone out who's new to the sport I tell them to just play everything for a 4. It's a good place to start...for the average course. As to people who show up to play by themselves, I ask what good does a sign do them with a bunch of different numbers? It's just confusing.

Do the old cross comparison even with ball golf. Out of all the X or current ball golfers out there, how many of us would tee off expecting to get par all that often? Even from the woman's tee? Not me and hardly anyone I know is a par golfer.

One good solid par on a hole is plenty enough information. That par should be set by the course designers but with solid information. That includes averages. They may not be the end of the story but they can help keep your par's honest.