disc speeds and the Halo driver...

[Mikk]

I do know that some drivers rotate at faster speeds. Can anybody explain this to me? I have been reading some info but still don't get it?? I just got a 166 Halo in opto plastic and can tell it's super fast compaired to my other drivers. The grip edge is beveled out and I gota change my grip to rip it. Boy does it go like a frickin lazer beam when I get rip on it!! Its super picky tho, it likes to sneak right outa my hand if I'm not careful.

[Adam Schneider]

When they talk about a disc being "fast," they don't mean it rotates at faster speeds. They mean you need to throw it at a higher velocity to get it to its "cruise speed" -- the speed at which it will fly the way it was intended to.

The Halo has a very shallow rim, which may be why you're having to grip it differently, and why it might sneak out. But the angle of the rim against the flight plate is not that unusual.

[Mikk]

ok now I get it. I was thinking about rotational speeds not the drive/throw speed..DUH!! It makes a great for-hand roller too. Sizzle in the grass!!

[The Course Bro]

Basics:
Three things you when you throw a disc:
1. Speed- the rate of travel of the disc when it leaves your hand.
2. Spin- the rate of rotation of the disc
3. Direction- 3 different components here-
A. Nose- where the front edge of the disc is pointing and the line the disc will fly on when you release it.
B. Angle- the hyser/anhyser thingy
C. I can't remember the name for it but it's nose up or nose down. Air bounces are nose up and you throw the disc down towards the ground and it "bounces" up and flys forward.

Ok, that's out of the way. Take two discs- an Orc and a Halo. Throw them with equal speed, spin and direction. The Halo will fly farther with the same amount of effort vs. the Orc.

The whole understable/overstable/stable thing.
Discs like the Halo (Wraith, Teerex, Surge, Force, Boss, etc.) are overstable and want to curve against the rotation of spin. But the secret to these disc is the huge weight in the rim and making it work for you. Now this is a wild over-generalization for these discs but the faster the spin, the longer they will keep on their original line. This changes at very high rates of spin as they will turn over and become (at least temporarily) understable but for max weight Halos, Bosses, etc. that is a freaking ton of spin.

So Mikk, slow down your arm (speed) and try and throw that sweet Halo with massive spin- just for kicks. Think of riding a bike in a 20 ft. across circle- really hard to do at 3 mph but easy at 16 mph. That because the wheels need to spin fast enough to be gyroscopes (fancy way of saying they will want to keep spinning in the same direction). Same with the fast, big rimmed discs (except their mutant cousins the Nuke and the Katana). Spin them hard and they will carry far. The goal is to be able to throw them really, really fast but still give them as much spin as possible. Sacrificing speed for spin will give you more control (where the nose is pointing) while still really getting that sucker out there.

Last thing: wide rim discs tend to be unforgiving bastards, hence the "expert" designation by Discraft, Innova, etc. Given the right spin, they will keep doing what they were doing when they left your hand. Very important, very very very important. If you throw one of these discs with a touch too much hyser or anhyser, they will merrily continue on that path- i.e. way the f@#k left or right with serious enthusiasm. Golfers that tend to throw with a touch of hyser (because they flip their regular discs just a little and it all works out) will often throw a boss or whatever for the first time and as it cranks waaaaay too left, will say, "Oh, that's too stable for me." And I think, bulls*%t, it went the way you pointed it.

Enough preaching. Easy exercise for what flat is. Take your disc. Find the "nipple" on the bottom were the plastic was injected into the mold. Put your finger on the the nipple (sounds good so far right?) and spin the disc. If it spins smoothly, without up/down or side to side wobbles, you have found the center of gravity of the disc. Now balance the disc right there and KNOW that in regards to gravity (imagine a straight line to the center of the planet, 4000 or so miles below you) that is flat. Now try throwing the disc FLAT, slow arm at first-but spin it like an ancient Norse God on the Wheel of Fortune. That Halo will fly like a lazer. Repeat, repeat, repeat and your release speed will just naturally increase as you build the muscle memory of that controlled spin. I always think of an air hockey table, a really big one, from me to the hole, if I can just spin the disc hard enough and throw that disc right onto it, the air from the table will get where I need to go-the disc will do what it was born to do with less and less effort on your part.

I'm sure I screwed up something in there. Tear it up. Cheers, Bro

[Mikk]

I was playing this morning and was practicing my less arm power but more spin drive with that Halo. Still a bit picky on the release but man does it fly with a finesse drive. I still haven't been able to put a lot of power behind it like my innova discs but with more practice I'll get it. It still seems to cut through the air better than any disc I've thrown but the grip issue I have is gonna be a bigger learning curve than with the boss.

[The Course Bro]

First of all, nice work on the breakthrough. It's like solving part of a puzzle and then throwing the puzzle farther than you ever have!! :yay:

Next lesson:

Bachelor of Discology:

Flight: all wings (discs are wings) generate lift by diverting more air under the disc and this creates an area of reduced pressure over the disc. This reduced pressure creates lift and thusly, flight. This is an interaction between the disc and the air, so the frame of reference is called airspeed (as opposed to ground speed-the speed of the disc when it flying underground).

Spin: Now the interesting thing about discs is that they rotate. This rotation means that one side of the disc is moving into the wind and the other side is moving with the wind. Right-handed backhand (RHBH) throws spin clockwise, as viewed from the top of the disc, so the left side of the disc (from above or from the tee) has a higher airspeed then the right side of the disc. Not only is there a difference in air speed, the difference is symmetrical across the disc, i.e. the greater the rate of spin, the greater the difference AND the left side's airspeed is always equally higher (than the airspeed of the entire disc) than the right side airspeed is lower (than disc airspeed).

If I haven't lost you yet, sweet. If I have, I take all the blame.

Pressure differential: So now we have the left side with a higher airspeed than the right (RHBH), this creates a more concentrated area of low pressure over the left side and so the disc lifts it's left side and turns over. Lighter discs will turn over easier because there is less weight to shift.

Disc Weight: Generally speaking, there is continuity in the shape of a disc as it gets heavier. Weight tends to be added in the flight plate as the wing needs to stay the same size to remain a Wraith or whatever. Because the disc shape stays the same, the flight characteristics of the disc stays the same so a heavy wraith and a light wraith both cause the air to move over and under them the same way, but the difference in weight will cause a difference in the flight pattern.

And the point? I don't remember.

Oh, yeah. So if you are flipping your light discs but there were money before, then yeah, head down to your local disc shop and bump up the weights on old faithfuls. See how that works and then check out the Marshal Street Disc Golf flight chart HERE (http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/htmlpages/flightguide.html) and use it to fine tune your next disc purchase. The flight guide is sweet, move up the chart for faster, go left for more stable and right for flippier.

Again, nice work loocid. Keep your light discs around for shorter shots (they'll fly sweet for you if you throw them more like midranges), low ceilings (throw them hyzered with mad spin and low speed, more or less at the ground and they'll hovercraft like Obi Wan's landspeeder on nitrous) and for up hill. If this works out, let me know and I'll put up the Master level.

Keep 'em, huckin!!!!! Bro

[Ol' Bob]

I can't wait for loocid to get here again and fill me in so I can try to keep up with him (I'll have to be shown). Also, I have his LM bag tag for him.

[Ol' Bob]

...all wings (discs are wings) generate lift by diverting more air under the disc and this creates an area of reduced pressure over the disc.

You're sure about that?

[The Course Bro]

All of the sudden, no. Why?

[Uhlman]

Bro, you were right on describing Bernoulli's principles and Newton’s laws of motion, they are both relevant to disc flight. My own rule regarding flight is “While fight is a fact, its application is not.”

[Uhlman]

...the Marshal Street Disc Golf flight chart HERE (http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/htmlpages/flightguide.html)...
While that is a nice chart and I give props to whoever designed it, I feel it is flawed. They put the Crush and Orc next to each other is in the stable section, which I feel is wrong. The Crush (for me) is a lot more overstable then the Orc. I am curious to see the formula they used to determine where the discs go on their chart.

[Ol' Bob]

My point was about the idea that more air is "diverted" under the wing. The point would more be that the air going over the wing travels a longer path, bringing Bernoulli's into play. The principle is, the faster a fluid moves, the lower its pressure. The bottom of the typical wing is flat and the top is curved, creating a longer path for the air going over the top. The longer path accelerates the speed of the air and lowers its pressure. So, both the air going under and over have been diverted, one flow to a shorter path and one to a longer path. The air in the longer path drops in pressure. Early wing designs diverted nearly all of the air hitting the leading edge over the top, yet had lift nonetheless.

[Ol' Bob]

If we could pick all the nits, flight paths for discs, of any given weight, for any given hukker (not to mention how it cooled from the mold), would probably be like fingerprints: no two alike. Any chart or mapping is a generalization and will likely reflect the chart creator's form, strength, and the particular disc that form his/her experience, and should be followed by the qualification: Your Mileage May Vary.

[bvdisc]

For the Bernoulli effect to work on a wing it's not about how much air goes over or under but rather how fast it goes over or under. So this means the bulge on the top of the disc requires the air to travel a longer path then the air on the bottom in the same amount of time. So the air on the top goes faster creating a lower pressure and providing lift.

Now as to the left and right hand side, you are right about the spin but wrong about the effect. Since the left hand side is moving against the wind it will actually act to slow the air down on that side (compared to the right hand side). The right hand side of the disc that is spinning backwards or with the air will allow the air to pass faster over it. So with Bernoulli's principle alone we would expect the spin to give to right hand side of the disc lift and make it more stable.

All of this is to say that the physics behind the flight of a disc are not as simple as they may seem. Any description that you read that sounds good and is easy to understand isn't correct. First off, laminar flow is very difficult to model. Second, the large effect that no one ever mentions (because most people don't understand it) is conservation of angular momentum. Some talk about it as the gyroscopic effect that keeps it going flat but there is more going on. As the disc slows it's spin the front edge that was originally up will now shift to the side causing the disc to turn. I'm not going to try to explain all the physics behind the flight because I know enough physics to know that I don't know enough physics to fully explain this without doing significantly more work in the field.

[Ol' Bob]

...doing significantly more work in the field.

Now you're talkin'! When's tee time?

Considerable smoke has come out of my ears, thinking about disc physics.

[Ol' Bob]

Spin: Now the interesting thing about discs is that they rotate. This rotation means that one side of the disc is moving into the wind and the other side is moving with the wind. Right-handed backhand (RHBH) throws spin clockwise, as viewed from the top of the disc, so the left side of the disc (from above or from the tee) has a higher airspeed then the right side of the disc. Not only is there a difference in air speed, the difference is symmetrical across the disc, i.e. the greater the rate of spin, the greater the difference AND the left side's airspeed is always equally higher (than the airspeed of the entire disc) than the right side airspeed is lower (than disc airspeed).

Pressure differential: So now we have the left side with a higher airspeed than the right (RHBH), this creates a more concentrated area of low pressure over the left side and so the disc lifts it's left side and turns over.

========================

Now as to the left and right hand side, you are right about the spin but wrong about the effect. Since the left hand side is moving against the wind it will actually act to slow the air down on that side (compared to the right hand side). The right hand side of the disc that is spinning backwards or with the air will allow the air to pass faster over it. So with Bernoulli's principle alone we would expect the spin to give to right hand side of the disc lift and make it more stable.

========================

I lean more toward the Bro's take here. I'm looking at the relative airspeed over the disc's surface. I can see that there may be more drag on the left side, and it would be the left side that does more to slow the disc down, but it's the affect of the low pressure at a given place and time in a relative environment applying the lift. Because of laminar flow, the air closest to the surface of the disc will be being dragged around, and the differential nearest the disc and its layer of laminar flow will be that which has the lifting effect. After all, in an airplane wing, the air it is flying through isn't really moving, but it's the relative motion that applies. And the relative airspeed over the two sides is in play over the disc.

[Uhlman]

Depending on how you throw the disc, I think all the laws physics regarding flight and fluid dynamics go in to effect at some point. As I said earlier, the application of flight is only a theory.

[The Course Bro]

Awesome thread.

I suppose I may resolve this by adding disclaimer: All attempts at precise description of the physics of disc flight in this thread are, at best, incomplete and, at worst, completely wrong. But the general principles still apply when trying to understand why discs do what they do.

My belief about learning anything physical is that perfection is a worthy goal. But I really really want people to flip their measurement system on it's head.

STOP BEATING YOUR SELF UP. STOP. STOP. STOP. ONCE THE DISC HAS LEFT YOUR HAND, YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE DISC. And if the disc doesn't do what you wanted it to do- you don't suck, you aren't a bad person, your mom still loves you, etc.

Now I'm no Pollyanna, (or Elsa for that matter) but after a bad shot I see a lot of time and energy devoted to self-asskicking and "Man, I suck" thinking and acting. Why? I have yet to hear any supporting evidence that this sort of negative feedback reduces the chances of doing the same thing again. AND. THAT. IS. NOT. THE. POINT. OF. DISC. GOLF. (personal opinion).

My goal is that over time, my skill and ability will increase INCREMENTALLY on a consistent basis. If I find myself making the same error again and again, I will "Go Random" and try something I have no idea whether it will work or not. But I'll be damn sure I won't make the same mistake as I did before.

Bro's Positive Mental Reinforcement Technique:
1. Visualize the throw you want to make. The throw should be one that you have made successfully in the past or a throw that you feel you could throw successfully.
2. Throw the shot.
3. If you do not achieve the throw, ok, that sucks. But to just say, well, that sucked and I suck and this game sucks and now I'm going to kick my bag and look like an idiot and f*&k up the game of the people playing with you is not disc golf, it's public masturbation of your self doubt and is really really unfair to you. Yep, to you. And to the people around you.
3a. If you do not achieve the throw, ok, that sucks. Bow your head in a moment of silence (off the pad- someone else is up) for what could have been. And then try this exercise: What did I do right?

There are so many variables that we must control from the moment we get onto the course until the disc goes into the last basket of the round. Why not focus on the ones you got right first, then see what's left.

Example: 40 foot putt. The kill zone. Higher %s from here really help the score. You throw, and chain out weak side. Yep, the score card says, "Suck", but you took a piece of round plastic and for 40 feet through the air, controlled the height, speed, spin and orientation and ended up 8-10 inches to the left of your target link. Seems like that is 90 to 95% of a great shot, maybe more.

Example: XXX ft. drive. Straight shot with slow fade at the end. Goal: 30 ft. diam. circle for birdie opportunity at XXX ft. Throw lands at XXX-20 ft. and no joy for birdie op. Score card says, "Suck", but drive was 100% correct on: direction, height, rotation and XXX-20/XXX % right for distance. Same throw next time, with 100-(XXX-20/XXX) % more speed and you are money. And I bet that last number is pretty damn small. Regardless of the score, in my book that was a great throw. Same as the putt above, even though it didn't go in, you got so much right, how can you feel bad?

This is the inner game. It's a buffer against negativity while pinpointing what you still need to work on.

During play: I use two different modes in play.
1. Practice: This is when I try different discs, shots, etc. to see if I can hit the line I want (always, always, always have a target- even if it's not what you are ultimately looking to hit- a tree 600 feet away is great for the straightest shot you can throw). I will watch other players throw-how they hold the disc, how they throw it (angle, speed, snap) and see how it works out. If it doesn't do what they wanted it to do, I try and figure out what would have worked, i.e. 100% distance but 30 ft. right.

2. Play: As I wait for my shot, I try and feel what shot and disc will do what I want to do. If I do not have know what I am going to do, I DO NOT WATCH OTHER THROWS for fear I will try and copy someone else's successful shot. Which is damn near impossible because I am not them and have not thrown that shot 1000s of times (or might not get lucky like they did-it happens!!). I look away or down, until I hear the release- foot scrape, grunt, "Rosebud" or "Adrian!!" (I play at North Part too much). Then I watch the disc fly, because that's why I'm there- to see the beauty of discs in flight and to create that beauty myself (plus I believe it's the responsibility of the thrower to throw and the non-thrower(s) to watch and prevent lost discs).

An old business adage is "That which gets measured, improves." And score is not how to measure success in disc golf. You can't change your score by thinking about it-before or after the throw. The window of control is from the time you pick a disc until the release. At release, your disc is like a robot. You program the disc's flight by selecting speed, spin and orientation and then see if you picked the right instructions to make your robot go where you wanted it to go. If not, figure out what you did right first (GOOD JOB!!!) and then figure out what you didn't do right, so next time you practice you can focus on the things that you CONSISTENTLY didn't get correct. Grip lock, slips, brain farts, etc. HAPPEN. But if your 175 Z-Buzz keeps landing 25 ft. right and past the basket- what do you need to do? Change discs for that shot? Throw more left and softer to compensate? That for practice. Play, measure, practice, play, improve. It's an iterative process, small changes that sometime equal big changes. But if your focus is on one shot at a time (can't think about that last bad shot and expect to make the next one better), you will move faster towards the goal of this game: make the disc do what you want it to do. And most of the time, we want the disc to go in the basket. This equals lower scores. Score is an indirect measurement of success when it comes to getting better EVERY TIME you throw the disc but is an excellent measurement of your overall game.

Be the ball, Danny. Breathe through your eyelids. Whatever it takes to find the sweet spot and hit it right where you want it. And then again. And then again. The score will take care of itself if thats what you do.

Cheers, Bro

[Uhlman]

Awesome thread.

...
Be the ball, Danny. Breathe through your eyelids. Whatever it takes to find the sweet spot and hit it right where you want it. And then again. And then again. The score will take care of itself if thats what you do.

Cheers, Bro

I think that about says it all.

[Ol' Bob]

I'm not sure the breathing through the eyelids works without a black lace garter belt.

[The Course Bro]

I'm not sure the breathing through the eyelids works without a black lace garter belt.

Please post your disc golf gear in the DG Equipment area, Bob. Thanks.

[Mikk]

Hey bro where you play regular like? I'd like to throw a round or two. I might just learn something. Beverage of choice is on me.

[Ol' Bob]

Please post your disc golf gear in the DG Equipment area, Bob. Thanks.

Sorry, I just watched Bull Durham again a couple of days ago.

[The Course Bro]

Sorry, I just watched Bull Durham again a couple of days ago.

No apologies necessary. Magnificent film.

[General Scales]

STOP BEATING YOUR SELF UP. STOP. STOP. STOP. ONCE THE DISC HAS LEFT YOUR HAND, YOU HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THE DISC. And if the disc doesn't do what you wanted it to do- you don't suck, you aren't a bad person, your mom still loves you, etc

:shocked: I didn't know that at all. I thought all bad shots were actually a little personal view into a person's innermost psyche. :slapface: Goes to show how much I actually know :p.

As for this whole physics lesson with formulas provided for variables, simply great. Felt like I was back in college and arguing with my professors for a more detailed explanation of variables in flight.

My only input on this (as anything I would of said about disc flight has been said and explained by much smarter people then myself) is the most aerodynamic, fast and glidey disc in the world won't do a damn bit of good if you can't apply a rock solid form behind it.

[Mikk]

Form over function. Simple theory form is where its at. If ya dont know how to throw correctly then any disc is gona suck. Looks like I need to work on my form more and beat myself up less!!

[XandorF]

While that is a nice chart and I give props to whoever designed it, I feel it is flawed. They put the Crush and Orc next to each other is in the stable section, which I feel is wrong. The Crush (for me) is a lot more overstable then the Orc. I am curious to see the formula they used to determine where the discs go on their chart.

yea i see some flaws too. like the firebird being the same speed as a teebird... :slapface: comeon. its a bird made of FIRE!

[Ol' Bob]

I was walking down the road with a Firebird in my hand. It pulled me off into the left side ditch.

[The Course Bro]

yea i see some flaws too. like the firebird being the same speed as a teebird... :slapface: comeon. its a bird made of FIRE!

As opposed to a bird made of tea?

[XandorF]

As opposed to a bird made of tea?

since when was tea the opposite of fire? go home bro, just go home.

[XandorF]

As opposed to a bird made of tea?

and for the record. i understand your pun. and im not laughing.:pullhair: <see that face. im not happy with you. grrr

[The Course Bro]

I am used to people not getting my jokes. I usually attribute it IDS. It's cool.

Next Lesson is the Evening Certificate Program on Plastics
Then the final lesson is the Gyroscopic Procession Symposium

[Ol' Bob]

A solemn procession, indeed.

[Toby Puttzinski]

Brofessor Berg dropping knowledge, but not the baby.