Whats the result on this?

[DoubleDees]

Scenario:

Player A and player B throw the same disc on the same hole both clearly marked. They have similar shots. Player B marks his lie and throws his approach, putts out and moves on to the next hole. Player A sees what he believes is his disc 20 foot or so into water and is unable to retrieve the disc. Marks his lie as ob and plays the hole out.

Player A gets a 4p
Player B gets a 3



Several holes later Player B realizes he has player A's disc.

[RonTheWhip]

Several holes later...its too late to make any calls or enforce any penalties.

However, if it were discovered right away then the ruling is: play out the hole from the wrong lie and add two strokes...

803.10 Throwing From Another Player's Lie



A. A player who has thrown from another player's lie shall receive two penalty throws, without
a warning. The offending player shall complete the hole as if the other player's lie were his
or her own. No throws shall be replayed.

B. The player whose lie was played by the offending player shall be given an approximate lie as
close to the original lie as possible, as determined by the offending player, a majority of his
or her group, or an official. See section 803.11 C if the disc has been declared lost.

[Chuck Kennedy]

It's never too late for penalties until the TD has given out awards and declares the event is over. Two rules can be used to handle this situation and both result in each player getting two throws added to the scores they recorded (4p & 3). Rule 801.04D on misplays discovered after additional holes have been completed adds 2 throws per player. Or, 803.13A(2) on inadvertently not holing out adds 2 throws to each player. The fact that Player B played from another player's lie and caused Player A to also play from another player's lie gets washed out since player A didn't discover the problem while the hole was being played to get the proper lie and no penalty.

[DoubleDees]

So does player A still receive the penalty stroke for being ob?

[mazza]

So does player A still receive the penalty stroke for being ob?

i think player a should have the penalty stroke removed because it was player b that was ob

[Chuck Kennedy]

Nope. Each player gets the score they recorded + 2. Both players screwed up even though player B started the cascade of errors. The only way player A wouldn't get any penalty is if he (or Player B) discovered the problem before he marked and threw. Once he threw, he had played from another player's lie and would complete the hole with a 2-shot penalty and not get the OB penalty. Once the hole was apparently completed before the error was discovered, the presumed score stands and the 2-shot misplay/incomplete penalty is added. I think the revised rules for 2011 are going to require that discs be marked on both sides to reduce the need for flipping discs for identification and help prevent situations like this.

[LakeStevensBA]

Is there a penalty if player A kicks player B in the groin for being such a douche? Or would he get a warning first?

[mazza]

Is there a penalty if player A kicks player B in the groin for being such a douche? Or would he get a warning first?

personily i would call it an ace and give player A the $1 and sign his disc

[Ol' Bob]

That wouldn't be a foot fault?

[Jeff Hemmerling]

I think the revised rules for 2011 are going to require that discs be marked on both sides to reduce the need for flipping discs for identification and help prevent situations like this.Ugly! :(

[essjay]

"I think the revised rules for 2011 are going to require that discs be marked on both sides to reduce the need for flipping discs for identification and help prevent situations like this."

Chuck, can the rule be a bit more complex, allowing discs that are unique (i.e., dyed discs) to not have to be marked on both sides? I understand the need for production discs, but a dyed disc is, in and of itself, a unique identifier. Just a thought for all those guys out there who don't want to tag up their pretties. :cheers:

[emmarose]

"I think the revised rules for 2011 are going to require that discs be marked on both sides to reduce the need for flipping discs for identification and help prevent situations like this."

Chuck, can the rule be a bit more complex, allowing discs that are unique (i.e., dyed discs) to not have to be marked on both sides? I understand the need for production discs, but a dyed disc is, in and of itself, a unique identifier. Just a thought for all those guys out there who don't want to tag up their pretties. :cheers:

can the 2011 revised rules have something that disallows for jack asses to play the sport... ;)

[Scott]

"I think the revised rules for 2011 are going to require that discs be marked on both sides to reduce the need for flipping discs for identification and help prevent situations like this."

Chuck, can the rule be a bit more complex, allowing discs that are unique (i.e., dyed discs) to not have to be marked on both sides? I understand the need for production discs, but a dyed disc is, in and of itself, a unique identifier. Just a thought for all those guys out there who don't want to tag up their pretties. :cheers:

I'm guessing that it will. The current rules don't require a name and phone number, although that's what most of us use to uniquely mark our discs. They simply require a "unique identifier". I'd assume that a dyed disc qualifies.

[Chuck Kennedy]

I think the rule would likely be similar to the current one which would say something like, "uniquely marked on both sides." That would allow for dyed sides to not have a mark on them if the dye and disc color combo was unique. But how would you know that more weren't made unless you dyed it yourself?

[Bullseye]

I think the rule would likely be similar to the current one which would say something like, "uniquely marked on both sides." That would allow for dyed sides to not have a mark on them if the dye and disc color combo was unique. But how would you know that more weren't made unless you dyed it yourself?

In all honestly, I think that proposed rule is absurd. It sounds like a knee-jerk solution to a non-problem. Seriously, if someone makes a mistake and throws from the wrong lie because they didn't bother to make certain it was their disc, then they take the penalty. That should be the end of it.

[Scott]

I think the rule would likely be similar to the current one which would say something like, "uniquely marked on both sides." That would allow for dyed sides to not have a mark on them if the dye and disc color combo was unique. But how would you know that more weren't made unless you dyed it yourself?

I can see that leading to arguments, or at least discussions. Aren't fly-dye discs all technically unique? As far as I know, they're done by hand, right? An artist will repeat the same general idea several times and, at first glance, some might look the same. But all will have small variations making them unique.

Allowing custom dyed discs seems like a no-brainer, though.

[Chuck Kennedy]

In all honestly, I think that proposed rule is absurd. It sounds like a knee-jerk solution to a non-problem. Seriously, if someone makes a mistake and throws from the wrong lie because they didn't bother to make certain it was their disc, then they take the penalty. That should be the end of it.
Consider how absurd it is that we even allow custom discs at all for professional competition. The ones used for competition should be factory hotstamps and weighed for compliance if we were following the lead of other professional sports.

[emmarose]

In all honestly, I think that proposed rule is absurd. It sounds like a knee-jerk solution to a non-problem. Seriously, if someone makes a mistake and throws from the wrong lie because they didn't bother to make certain it was their disc, then they take the penalty. That should be the end of it.

amen, brutha.

[Bullseye]

Consider how absurd it is that we even allow custom discs at all for professional competition. The ones used for competition should be factory hotstamps and weighed for compliance if we were following the lead of other professional sports.

Oddly enough, I would support this idea more than the idea you mentioned earlier. Unlike having ink on both sides of the disc, overweight discs do make a difference in flight characteristics.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Of course these discs would need to be marked on both sides since so many would look alike... ;)

[Magilla]

Oddly enough, I would support this idea more than the idea you mentioned earlier. Unlike having ink on both sides of the disc, overweight discs do make a difference in flight characteristics.

A TD DOES have the right to check a competitors bag for overweight discs at his/her event.

Just find a hole that traditionally has backups....set up a table with a digital scale....and start checking. :evilgrin:

THAT would go over well..... :whistler:

[Uhlman]

Oddly enough, I would support this idea more than the idea you mentioned earlier. Unlike having ink on both sides of the disc, overweight discs do make a difference in flight characteristics.

Forgive my ignorance (as I can’t seem to find it in the rues) but what constitutes an "overweight" disc?

[Bullseye]

A TD DOES have the right to check a competitors bag for overweight discs at his/her event.

Just find a hole that traditionally has backups....set up a table with a digital scale....and start checking. :evilgrin:

THAT would go over well..... :whistler:

Until our manufacturers start making "PDGA Approved" discs that actually weigh what they say they weigh I think we're safe :)

[ChUcK]

Consider how absurd it is that we even allow custom discs at all for professional competition. The ones used for competition should be factory hotstamps and weighed for compliance if we were following the lead of other professional sports.

That's a really good point, Chuck.

An overweight disc is going to become the disc golf equivalent of a corked bat.

[Ol' Bob]

Accept no substitutes.

http://www.batsbatsbats.com/pics/wil_officiallittleball.jpg

[Ol' Bob]

Okay, back to golf. Does everyone playing in the PGA use the same clubs? The same ball? What game are we playing? The limits are set by rule of the sanctioning body. The manufacturers, big and small, must observe the basic parameters. This should be enough.
http://www.simpsonspark.com/images/references/films/lemeilleur/homerlafoudre3_film.jpg

[Uhlman]

Forgive my ignorance (as I can’t seem to find it in the rules) but what constitutes an "overweight" disc?

Anyone?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Originally Posted by Uhlman
Forgive my ignorance (as I can’t seem to find it in the rules) but what constitutes an "overweight" disc?
Check section 805 B(4) of your printed rulebook or here online:
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGATechStandards_121909.pdf

Does everyone playing in the PGA use the same clubs? The same ball? What game are we playing? The limits are set by rule of the sanctioning body. The manufacturers, big and small, must observe the basic parameters. This should be enough.
No, but player's equipment is actually checked and approved at PGA events incuding things like groove shape on irons and spring effect on the face of drivers.

[Uhlman]

Check section 805 B(4) of your printed rulebook or here online:
http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/PDGATechStandards_121909.pdf


Thanks

[Ol' Bob]

No, but player's equipment is actually checked and approved at PGA events incuding things like groove shape on irons and spring effect on the face of drivers.

Fine and dandy, check out the equipment for obvious juicing. I just think the parameters go far enough without limiting discs to the point where if a hot stamp is replaced by a dye, it's not being legal. Crazy absurd. Glad I don't play tournaments.

[jevon]

Fine and dandy, check out the equipment for obvious juicing. I just think the parameters go far enough without limiting discs to the point where if a hot stamp is replaced by a dye, it's not being legal. Crazy absurd. Glad I don't play tournaments.
Parameters are fine and dandy IF the manufacturers actually followed them. When was the last time you actually weighed a disc? If, according to specs, a discs maximum allowable weight is 175g, and you buy one that is marked at 175g, you would expect it to actually weigh 175g. Now if said disc actually weighed 180g wouldn't that be cheating? You could try to play the ignorance card but it probably wouldn't get you far. You are the one who chose the equipment and put it in your bag so you are responsible when they bust out the scales and your go to disc that is marked 175g turns out to be 180g...

[Scott]

Does any tournament weigh discs? I've never heard of it being done, although I suppose they might have to at the Japan Open.

[jevon]

Does any tournament weigh discs? I've never heard of it being done
Probably not many. Doesn't mean they can't though.

I suppose they might have to at the Japan Open.
I believe they do.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Japan Open is the only event I've heard of doing it formally.

[Ol' Bob]

If, according to specs, a discs maximum allowable weight is 175g, and you buy one that is marked at 175g, you would expect it to actually weigh 175g. Now if said disc actually weighed 180g wouldn't that be cheating?

I just read the PDGA regs and it said no more than 200 grams.

I noticed that the edge radius has been cut from 1/8th inch to 1/16th inch since the last time I read the regs. I was wondering how the Bosses and Katanas happened.

[Magilla]

I just read the PDGA regs and it said no more than 200 grams.

I noticed that the edge radius has been cut from 1/8th inch to 1/16th inch since the last time I read the regs. I was wondering how the Bosses and Katanas happened.

Each mold has it's maximum weight limit....NO Disc, regardless of the mold is allowed to exceed 200g.

:cheers:

[Magilla]

What is the advantage of throwing an 'illegal' 180 disc over a 175? Is it a matter of control? More stable in the wind? Would it be a noticeable difference for most people? I guess I could see how a big-arm thrower might have a 175 mold that is too flippy, but flys great for them at a heavier weight... Wouldn't you remedy this by just throwing a more stable mold?

Hehe, just curious, thanks :)

The heavier the disc...the more overstable it will be in flight.

:cheers:

[Ol' Bob]

Is it just me, or is this disc/mold thing a bit over-regulated? It seems if you buy a disc that says, "PDGA Approved," it should be okay to use if you haven't cut parts away or glued a gravity drive to it.

[Magilla]

Is it just me, or is this disc/mold thing a bit over-regulated? It seems if you buy a disc that says, "PDGA Approved," it should be okay to use if you haven't cut parts away or glued a gravity drive to it.

Yea...and all Toyotas are supposed to stop once you step on the brake.

:wink2:

[Ol' Bob]

Yea...and all Toyotas are supposed to stop once you step on the brake.

What's that got to do with the Dodgers sucking?

[Kenny B]

Scenario:

Player A and player B throw the same disc on the same hole both clearly marked. They have similar shots. Player B marks his lie and throws his approach, putts out and moves on to the next hole. Player A sees what he believes is his disc 20 foot or so into water and is unable to retrieve the disc. Marks his lie as ob and plays the hole out.

Player A gets a 4p
Player B gets a 3



Several holes later Player B realizes he has player A's disc.

Back to this original question...I'm afraid I don't see how the situation described above is very realistic. How do players A and B throw "similar shots" where one ends up in the water and the other does not? Seems to me that Player B is an idiot for not checking his disc before throwing his second shot. And Player A is an idiot for watching his disc land on the ground and then just assuming it is in the water now.

The only way for one of the "similar shots" to be wet and the other dry is if the dry disc is near the water, in which case both players would be very interested in proving their disc is the one that is dry before proceeding.

If you are going to play disc golf tournaments and want to succeed, then pay attention to what is going on!

[Chuck Kennedy]

Blind landing area on this hole perhaps?

[Scott]

Back to this original question...I'm afraid I don't see how the situation described above is very realistic. How do players A and B throw "similar shots" where one ends up in the water and the other does not? Seems to me that Player B is an idiot for not checking his disc before throwing his second shot. And Player A is an idiot for watching his disc land on the ground and then just assuming it is in the water now.

The only way for one of the "similar shots" to be wet and the other dry is if the dry disc is near the water, in which case both players would be very interested in proving their disc is the one that is dry before proceeding.

If you are going to play disc golf tournaments and want to succeed, then pay attention to what is going on!

Discs can take funny bounces, bumps, and skips after landing. Often times the thrower won't even see the disc as it rolls into an unfortunate place.

[DMajor]

Back to this original question...I'm afraid I don't see how the situation described above is very realistic. How do players A and B throw "similar shots" where one ends up in the water and the other does not? Seems to me that Player B is an idiot for not checking his disc before throwing his second shot. And Player A is an idiot for watching his disc land on the ground and then just assuming it is in the water now.

The only way for one of the "similar shots" to be wet and the other dry is if the dry disc is near the water, in which case both players would be very interested in proving their disc is the one that is dry before proceeding.

If you are going to play disc golf tournaments and want to succeed, then pay attention to what is going on!

The Downriver Golf Course has a few holes where your disc can land in a seemingly good spot and roll a hundred feet down to the river.

[Kenny B]

Good comments, but in all those scenarios it is still unrealistic for any player to take a second shot without to fully investigating discs first.

With blind landing areas, I never trust any player who says the disc they picked up was theirs and not mine. Not because the player would be untrustworthy but because it is an easy mistake to make.

With rolls and skips that you can't see, there is even more reason to expect the disc way over there in the water is not yours and thus investigate what another player may have already picked up.

I don't see how a player can just assume that a disc in 20 feet of water and far away from the expected resting place is theirs without looking at it first. If fact there is a very good arguement that your disc is actually lost. No one watched your disc fly, roll, or skip into the water. Why should it be yours? Your disc should be lost until either you prove it's yours or the group decides that they did watch it go OB before losing sight of it and so it is OB and unretrievable.

[Greg_R]

I guess I could see how a big-arm thrower might have a 175 mold that is too flippy, but flys great for them at a heavier weightYou got it. For top pros or players who have access to a LOT of discs they can go through the pile and find discs that are heavier than the max weight (i.e. a disc labeled 175g but actually weighs 183g). This could result in an unfair advantage.

I think a lot of people are assuming that the weights written on the back of discs are actually accurate. They are not, particularly with certain brands (cough, Innova, cough).

[T-Bird]

You got it. For top pros or players who have access to a LOT of discs they can go through the pile and find discs that are heavier than the max weight (i.e. a disc labeled 175g but actually weighs 183g). This could result in an unfair advantage.

I think a lot of people are assuming that the weights written on the back of discs are actually accurate. They are not, particularly with certain brands (cough, Innova, cough).

If the max allowable weight is 200g how is 183 an "unfair advantage"?
What am I missing?

Edit: nevermind. I see what you are saying.

[ChUcK]

I think a lot of people are assuming that the weights written on the back of discs are actually accurate. They are not, particularly with certain brands (cough, Innova, cough).

As much as I dislike Innova, I'm still going to have to throw the BS flag at you. Do you actually weigh discs, or are you just repeating something you've heard?

Every Innova disc I have ever weighed has been a max of 1 gram off. Sure, you hear a horror story every now and then, (~10 gram difference in marked vs actual) but those are freak accidents. With the amount of plastic Innova churns out on a daily basis, they will have a higher quantity of mis-marked discs out there than other companies, but no higher of a percentage.

[D.L.]

regarding digi scales, a single disc could weigh in accurately at 174 and 176 on the same scale depending on your location on the earth.

and I'll call Shenanigans on Greg_R. I've found the marking on 100's of Innova discs to be exceedingly accurate. Rare is the +/- 2 error. I'd doubt there are (m)any 183's marked as 175's in play. An 8g error is more likely a bad battery or power supply on your scale. 1 or 2 grams is within the earth's normal gravitational variance.

[Uhlman]

regarding digi scales, a single disc could weigh in accurately at 174 and 176 on the same scale depending on your location on the earth.

and I'll call Shenanigans on Greg_R. I've found the marking on 100's of Innova discs to be exceedingly accurate. Rare is the +/- 2 error. I'd doubt there are (m)any 183's marked as 175's in play. An 8g error is more likely a bad battery or power supply on your scale. 1 or 2 grams is within the earth's normal gravitational variance.

Heres how to get around the digital scale battery error use a Triple-Beam Balance (http://www.nyu.edu/pages/mathmol/textbook/mass.html)

[Ol' Bob]

Is that what they mean by, "grammatical error?"

[Sean Phillips]

regarding digi scales, a single disc could weigh in accurately at 174 and 176 on the same scale depending on your location on the earth.

and I'll call Shenanigans on Greg_R. I've found the marking on 100's of Innova discs to be exceedingly accurate. Rare is the +/- 2 error. I'd doubt there are (m)any 183's marked as 175's in play. An 8g error is more likely a bad battery or power supply on your scale. 1 or 2 grams is within the earth's normal gravitational variance.

You would have to measure the disc at sea level and then on top of mt. Hood to see 1 to 2 grams difference due to change in gravity.

When scales are calibrated at the factory they are calibrated to weigh a mass at standard gravity (~9.8 m/s2). Portland is at an elevation that keeps us very close to standard gravity.

So the 1 to 2 gram difference is from other measurement uncertianties. (scale accuracy, tempurature, cleanliness, ect)