Ten Meter Marking Rule

[DMajor]

This came up in the tournament last weekend and there seemed to be some confusion.

The question is if your disc is on top of the ten meter line. Meaning the front of the disc is inside ten meters and the back of the disc is outside ten meters are you allowed to jump putt as long as you don't mark your disc?

The only thing I found in the rules adressing this is

"Putt: Any throw from 10 meters or less as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole is considered a putt."

The rule doesn't specifically say anything about not marking the disc in which case there would be no marker disc.

Opinions?

[runnaman]

Sounds like if you choose to mark your lie with a mini, you don't get to jump putt.

Simple answer, don't mark with a mini.

[TreeLove]

If you choose not to mark with a mini (can't do this if you want to throw the same disc again!), the disc becomes the marker.

[snap7times]

so if the disc is the marker, and it's more than 10 meters, jump away

[Chuck Kennedy]

You can jump putt if you don't mark with a mini and leave your disc as a marker. However, note that the painted line is not official and the distance should be measured with a tape if there's any question about the distance. I've seen Feldberg occasionally checking distances with a tape even when 10m circles are painted.

[LJ Jubner]

At what point does measuring become time wasting

[JMan]

How can it be wasting time if the pdga allows for it? If it is allowed as per the rule book it's not about time wasting, it's about playing within the rules set down by the governing body.

[all2common]

How can it be wasting time if the pdga allows for it? If it is allowed as per the rule book it's not about time wasting, it's about playing within the rules set down by the governing body.

I concur. If it's a questionable distance, I don't jump putt anyway...except when the group agrees that the lie is outside the line.

[LJ Jubner]

As a TD, I am concerned about how long it takes to play each round. My point is if it's close WHY push it?

Side note At the too casual round of doubles yesterday falling putts and stance violations were the most abused rules of the round. I educated/evaluated/ re-educated/ Warned and made this guy re putt three times in 19 holes. He almost seemed pissed at me for enforcing two of the most basic rules of this game.

So my question is What are the most important rules we need to adhere too even during casual play.

I think of five
Don't advance ahead of play
Falling putt
Stance(in the neighborhood of the mini (fairway) and putting footwork)
Don't break shit
Pack it in Pack it out

[all2common]

I think of five
Don't advance ahead of play
Falling putt
Stance(in the neighborhood of the mini (fairway) and putting footwork)
Don't break shit
Pack it in Pack it out

I concur. I wish people would just pay attention and learn/abide the rules.

[Ol' Bob]

I was just thinking the same thing (though I could use some work on it myself).

[DMajor]

You can jump putt if you don't mark with a mini and leave your disc as a marker. However, note that the painted line is not official and the distance should be measured with a tape if there's any question about the distance. I've seen Feldberg occasionally checking distances with a tape even when 10m circles are painted.

The reason that I thought you could not jump (putt jump) in the circumstance mentioned above is that the same question came up in Feldberg's latest viral putting video

http://www.svdgc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=138&st=0&gopid=232&#entry232

He answers that regardless if you mark or not you can not jump (putt jump). I'm not trying to bash Feldberg. He seems like a good guy to me. But if you are touring the country giving clinics, are a member of the PDGA board, and one of the most recognizable people in Disc Golf you should make sure you are giving people the correct information about the rules of the game because they will usually assume you are correct.

The guy is an incredible player and teacher of the game and I would gladly pay money to take one of his classes. I hope he continues to travel and give technique clinics.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Sorry. I meant putt jump or the Feldberg step thru. Either way, you can follow thru from behind the 10m arc as long as your supporting foot is still on the ground before releasing your shot.

[Sky Pilot]

This came up in the tournament last weekend and there seemed to be some confusion.

The question is if your disc is on top of the ten meter line. Meaning the front of the disc is inside ten meters and the back of the disc is outside ten meters are you allowed to jump putt as long as you don't mark your disc?

The only thing I found in the rules adressing this is

"Putt: Any throw from 10 meters or less as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole is considered a putt."

The rule doesn't specifically say anything about not marking the disc in which case there would be no marker disc.

Opinions?

Dave Feldberg said that 10 meters was actually 33 feet. He also said that there "isn't any such thing as a 'jump putt' it's actually a 'putt jump... : 0

[Sky Pilot]

Dave is on the board of the PDGa

[DMajor]

Sorry. I meant putt jump or the Feldberg step thru. Either way, you can follow thru from behind the 10m arc as long as your supporting foot is still on the ground before releasing your shot.

So is he wrong in the video when he says you cant step through or puttjump when the front of your disc is inside and the back of your disc is outside?

[Chuck Kennedy]

I think you have to take the rule literally. If you decide to use your thrown disc as the marker, then the back of that disc is at least another 21cm farther from the basket pole than you would be if you marked your lie with a mini. If that extra distance puts you outside 10m then you have the option for putt jump or walk thru.

[JMan]

I think you have to take the rule literally. If you decide to use your thrown disc as the marker, then the back of that disc is at least another 21cm farther from the basket pole than you would be if you marked your lie with a mini. If that extra distance puts you outside 10m then you have the option for putt jump or walk thru.

Bingo

And as for time concerns, well if someone wanted to they could ask for a marshal to measure. Sure it would really wreck havoc on the flow, but rules is rules...right

[RonTheWhip]

I think you have to take the rule literally. If you decide to use your thrown disc as the marker, then the back of that disc is at least another 21cm farther from the basket pole than you would be if you marked your lie with a mini. If that extra distance puts you outside 10m then you have the option for putt jump or walk thru.

803.04 Stance, Subsequent to Teeing Off
A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line
of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

Does that mean I get to back up 29 centimeters behind my disc, and if that puts me outside 10 meters, I can jump putt? So, all I really have to be is 971 Centimeters (31' 9'') to jump putt?

[Chuck Kennedy]

No. The rule states the measurement is to the back of your marker to determine whether you are outside 10m, not where you launch from.

[RonTheWhip]

No. The rule states the measurement is to the back of your marker to determine whether you are outside 10m, not where you launch from.

I agree. I also think the wording of "measured from the rear of the mini" should be replaced with "measured from the point of the lie (as determined from the rear of a mini marker, or leading edge of a disc)". Wouldn't that be more consistent?

Little stuff like that bugs me. I have seen this scenario before and HAVE NOT allowed people to jump putt because their disc is outside the circle, but their mini would be inside. MY BAD I guess...

[Chuck Kennedy]

I think that actually adds more confusion than simply measuring from the back of what the player determines will be their marker whether mini or disc. I know the Rules Committee is seriously looking at the 10m putting line for possible changes in the rule for 2011, so we'll need to see what wording change, if any, might be appropriate for more clarity.

[General Scales]

I've always understood it as this.

Disc lands with half in the circle half out.

Regardless of if you choose to mark with a mini or use the disc as a marker itself, you are not allowed to putt jump.

Reason being is that the outside of that 10 meter line is the end of the circle. If your disc is even touching the painted line, that puts you inside 10 meters regardless of marking.

I've asked this question to a lot of pros and this is the answer I get the most.

If this isn't the ruling then something really needs to be clarified because I got a falling putt call at the DRO because of it.

[DMajor]

I think that actually adds more confusion than simply measuring from the back of what the player determines will be their marker whether mini or disc. I know the Rules Committee is seriously looking at the 10m putting line for possible changes in the rule for 2011, so we'll need to see what wording change, if any, might be appropriate for more clarity.

I think more clarity in the rule would be very helpful.

[Jeff Hemmerling]

I know the Rules Committee is seriously looking at the 10m putting line for possible changes in the rule for 2011, so we'll need to see what wording change, if any, might be appropriate for more clarity.Are they thinking of changing the rule or the wording? And what change? We'd all like to know...

[The Ombudsman]

The ten meter circle should be expanded to at least 15 meters and, in my opinion, 20 meters.
This is because of the jump putt. It should be banned.

[Chuck Kennedy]

The Rules Committee will be reporting their progress next week at the Summit meeting so whatever they say will eventually show up in the meeting minutes. My sense is that eliminating the circle completely (of any radius) is one option under consideration. But I expect this discussion to drag on until they are forced to make a decision this summer. Three of your NW crew will be at the meeting so you might get some local updates in two weeks.

[The Ombudsman]

So if the circle is completely eliminated, does that mean the jump putt will be eliminated along with it?
Or will that make it legal to cheat from anywhere?

[Scott]

So if the circle is completely eliminated, does that mean the jump putt will be eliminated along with it?
Or will that make it legal to cheat from anywhere?

How is a jump putt "cheating"? The current PDGA rules allow it (outside the circle, of course), so it is not cheating.

It's only cheating if a rule is broken. As it stands right now, taking a jump putt outside the circle is playing by the rules.

[General Scales]

So if the circle is completely eliminated, does that mean the jump putt will be eliminated along with it?
Or will that make it legal to cheat from anywhere?

I don't see how the putt jump is cheating so long as you do it from outside the circle and release the disc before you leave the ground and before you cross the front lie of your marker/disc etc.

Although most people that putt jump are foot faulting without realizing because they release in the air. If thats the case, call it and make them re-throw.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Putt jumping was never specifically legalized. All the rule says is that "stepping past the marker is permitted." At some point, players, not the Rules Committee, broadened the interpretation to include jumping versus just stepping past.

[General Scales]

Putt jumping was never specifically legalized. All the rule says is that "stepping past the marker is permitted." At some point, players, not the Rules Committee, broadened the interpretation to include jumping versus just stepping past.

Exactly. Thats why when I putt jump, I don't actually jump. I just take the extra momentum from my push and follow through by stepping past the lie.

The whole jump issue is, at least in my opinion, a way to add extra variables to your putt that really don't need to be there. Then you are trying to control a jump, releasing before your lie and before you leave the ground and speed and distance and vertical and horizontal planes at the basket. With the step through opposed to a jump, you can just add the extra oomph to your push putt without adding a ton of extra variables.

[Skookum]

The ten meter circle should be expanded to at least 15 meters and, in my opinion, 20 meters.
This is because of the jump putt. It should be banned.

Lol and the run up too! Tee boxes should be 2x2ft squares (think of the money we'd save building courses)

ahhh... but really less regulation really is better than more. Lose the circle rule and focus on enforcing releasing the disc before lifting the plant foot rule. Saying folks shouldn't be able to jump putt(putt jump) is not that different from saying no forehand because it allows an unfair advantage to those those who throw both ways? Its fair if everyone can do it.

So with no circle will everyones scores go down, maybe, or will people use it in situations where it wasn't needed costing them strokes? Or, maybe it doesn't matter because Its fair if everyone can do it. and if it makes the rule book smaller, GREAT! Every sport should endeavor to simplify its rules we already have one football.

As far as the original question of this thread using your disc to mark your lie does not make your disc a "marker disk" your lie is one singular unarguable point, the edge of your disc closest to the basket after it comes to rest. Your lie extends to infinity up and down from this point. If this point is inside 10m it is a putt and all rules pertaining to that apply. The rules "should" refer for clarity sake that the measurement is from the (center of the?)base of the hole to your "lie".

BTW this goes for the 11 inch rule, It is messured from your "lie" meaning if you choose not to use a "marker" and play from behind the disc you only have a 3-4 inches behind the disc to cross the plane that defines you as being behind your lie with you plant foot. If you place a "marker" then you get the whole 11 inches, I guess you get 11 inches when you don't use a "marker" if you willing to step on your disc.

Here is a thought if this was a question of O.B. would be even discussing whether you can get a different lie simply by deciding to use or not use a marker?

[Chuck Kennedy]

As far as the original question of this thread using your disc to mark your lie does not make your disc a "marker disk" your lie is one singular unarguable point, the edge of your disc closest to the basket after it comes to rest. Your lie extends to infinity up and down from this point. If this point is inside 10m it is a putt and all rules pertaining to that apply. The rules "should" refer for clarity sake that the measurement is from the (center of the?)base of the hole to your "lie".

BTW this goes for the 11 inch rule, It is messured from your "lie" meaning if you choose not to use a "marker" and play from behind the disc you only have a 3-4 inches behind the disc to cross the plane that defines you as being behind your lie with you plant foot. If you place a "marker" then you get the whole 11 inches, I guess you get 11 inches when you don't use a "marker" if you willing to step on your disc.

Wrong all the way around. If you leave the thrown disc on the ground, it becomes the "marker" and you have 30 cm behind this disc, not from the front edge. That's black and white in the rulebook. The 803.03A Marking a Lie rule defines your thrown disc as your "marker" if you don't use a mini. Then 804.04A indicates you have up to 30cm behind the "marker" disc which is the previously thrown disc if a mini is not used.

803.03A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker.

803.04A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

[ericedge]

803.03A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc.

I've always found "mini marker...touching the thrown disc" rule strange, or at least in need of a modification perhaps. Sometimes a disc lands in such a way that the point of the disc closest to the pin isn't touching the playing surface (ex. angled tombstone). I think a clarification could be made that states the mini must be placed on the playing surface corresponding to the point of the disc closest to the pin, like you would do with a disc hanging in a bush above the playing surface. Who watches to see that their competitors place their mini touching their thrown disc?

[Sausage Fingers]

803.03A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, on the line of play, touching the thrown disc.

I've always found "mini marker...touching the thrown disc" rule strange, or at least in need of a modification perhaps. Sometimes a disc lands in such a way that the point of the disc closest to the pin isn't touching the playing surface (ex. angled tombstone). I think a clarification could be made that states the mini must be placed on the playing surface corresponding to the point of the disc closest to the pin, like you would do with a disc hanging in a bush above the playing surface. Who watches to see that their competitors place their mini touching their thrown disc?

I'll be watching you closer next round!:pirate:

[Toby Puttzinski]

If it's within the rules it's legal... how could you ban jump or step through putting altogether?-you'd have to disallow crossing your lie on all throws excluding the tee-shot... not going to happen. Those who oppose step/jump-putting (legally) should learn how... it's a useful shot, even if used sparingly.

Edge, it seems to me that they were trying to shadow the rules applied to marking a golf ball.

For me, seeing an illegal stance, mark, or foot-fault is more of an eyesore than anything... most of the time the player isn't trying to gain an advantage by this breach of the rules(though they may be inadvertantly)

[Skookum]

Wrong all the way around. If you leave the thrown disc on the ground, it becomes the "marker" and you have 30 cm behind this disc, not from the front edge. That's black and white in the rulebook. The 803.03A Marking a Lie rule defines your thrown disc as your "marker" if you don't use a mini. Then 804.04A indicates you have up to 30cm behind the "marker" disc which is the previously thrown disc if a mini is not used.
You have got to be kidding me... why would it be worded that way? Why is everything not based on a single point. It just invites the use of the biggest diameter possible (still some BIG legal discs out there) for upshots, then measuring to see how you want to mark it. The size of the disc you throw should not be a determining factor in anything. This making my OCD itch...

The concept that if a player is close to the circle they can measure so they know if they can be 8 inches closer and still "jump" or if they need to use a "different" maker to maintain proper distance. As someone who's stance doesn't change till outside 40 I don't personal care but this one of those things you would have to explain more than once to someone and will be constantly misunderstood.

Removing the 10m rule would fix this...

[Chuck Kennedy]

It's worded that way partly because your foot can't be touching your marker upon release. In your scenario, players would be allowed to step on their previously thrown disc. In addition, the current rule allows a little strategy and safety when a shot lands near a tree. Leave the disc on the ground as the marker and you'll have a little more arm room for the next throw versus marking it with a mini.

[The Ombudsman]

Plain and simple. The jump putt is cheating. regardless of what the PDGA says. That is my opinion. if I had a say, it would be banned. 10 meters is way too close to step past the lie. 20 meters is a more realistic 'circle' AND if you consider a par 3 to be a reasonable drive to the circle and 2 putts, a 20 meter circle would clear up any debate on what par should be on any given hole. Anyone should be able to get up and down from 20 meters without jumping.
Even on fairway drives, I do not step past my lie. It is habit. It is possible to do this. Just because so many throwers do not have the discipline to do this is no reason not to ban the jump putt. What is so hard to comprehend about not throwing from beyond your lie? Throwing from beyond the lie is just plain wrong.