Tournament Director Compensation -- Public Accounting of Tournament Fees

[CrazyDriver]

I was at the Mystery Tournament in Fall City on Saturday and heard a conversation about keeping tournament fee accounting private. Apparently PDGA allows tour directors to charge a maximum of $100 for their services, for a tier C event. Higher events allow more money for the tour director. One fellow said "can you imagine the bitching if people knew that the TD was taking some of the money instead of putting into payouts? It's not like TDs don't do a lot of work and deserve the money, but people would scream." Well, it seems to me that we all should know where all the money goes. I don't begrudge a TD compensation for his work, but don't I have a right to know that he is taking some of the money and how much? I mean, if you pay attention to the payouts, you can kinda figure out how much they had left. Why not be above board on this issue?

[Parks]

If the accounting isn't transparent, you always have the option to not play in the tournament.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Well, it seems to me that we all should know where all the money goes. I don't begrudge a TD compensation for his work, but don't I have a right to know that he is taking some of the money and how much? I mean, if you pay attention to the payouts, you can kinda figure out how much they had left. Why not be above board on this issue?
Do you care how the park director, staff and officials divide the money collected for Little League, Peewee football, soccer or tennis tournies? How much the burger flipper at McDonald's gets from your purchase?

[Uhlman]

Do you care how the park director, staff and officials divide the money collected for Little League, Peewee football, soccer or tennis tournies? How much the burger flipper at McDonald's gets from your purchase?

yes, yes, yes, not really because McDonalds doesn't flip burgers any more.

[Matt B.]

I don't begrudge a TD compensation for his work, but don't I have a right to know that he is taking some of the money and how much? I mean, if you pay attention to the payouts, you can kinda figure out how much they had left. Why not be above board on this issue?

Of course you don't have a "right" to know. Not a natural right or an earned right or a right conferred to you by some authority. You have a "want" to know.

And I want Angie Dickinson to tongue my balls.

[Sam]

Really? Angie Dickinson? I can think of several hundred people I would pick first... unless you know something about her skills in this area that you are not sharing with the group.

[Tim]

I think Matt's vicariously operating off of Uncle Junior's tastes.

But yeah, as to financial transparency, it's not a big deal to me. If I had a good time and felt I got my money's worth, that's enough for me. Most of the time, a TD is struggling to simply break even on a tournament, but there are TDs that are able to turn a slight profit from running tourneys (it really helps if you're a vendor). But, in at least a few cases I know of, people heard there was a profit being made, and that naturally evolved into people thinking the tournaments were basically profiteering schemes and of course, people started complaining about it. Due to that kind of bitching, the TDs got tired of it, and in turn, we've lost some great TDs both locally and nationally. I can't say I fault their decisions.

[ChUcK]

CrazyDriver, if you want more intimate knowledge tournament finances, then grab a clipboard and run a tournament.

I'd like to see a reference to whatever laws dictate this financial transparency that you supposedly have a right to. I do not believe they exist.

[cefire]

I think a great way to do this would be to make PDGA reports viewable online. You would also have to make the "accounting" section of the report mandatory to complete. I agree with most all points raised so far about TD's being under more scrutiny than most other things people contribute $$ to & opting out of tourney's you don't like the behind-the-scenes stuff on.

IMO, I don't think it is necessarily a "right" for people to know - but as crazydriver said, what is there to lose by being "above board" as a TD and upfront about the accounting for a tournament?
All that said, I'll gladly post my accounting for our Ice Bowl online...

[cefire]

I also wonder what can be done to provide incentives for TD's to run tournaments. As it stands, like Tim mentioned, TD's who take anything back for their hard work are shamed by players (99% of which contribute nothing to a tournament) which contributes to burnout.

Might be a bit controversial, but what about a mandated incentive from PDGA, even if it were a very small amount. For example TD's must take $50 for running a C-tier event - they can choose to donate back if they really want but something to destigmatize TD's getting something in return.

[olydiscgolf]

TD's should be compensated for their work. Reason, its WORK! Events should be run like a business. Like my business's, if you ask to see my books, I say get bent, none of your business! If more people could actually profit from this sport, there would be a lot more participation in the admin side of things and we wouldn't lose good TD's.

[chris7graham]

Hey were losing sight of why we play disc golf ....... because its fun. I personally don't care where the money goes Ive heard lots of story's about this and I must say it again its fun to play a tournament and we shouldn't care where the money is going.

[SMOKIN JOE]

I disagree. I believe people trying to profit from the sport is why we lose good T.D.'s. That's the main reason why I'm a non-profit club. For one, my books have to be open to the public. For two, in order to the sport to grow you have to give to it not take from it. There is not enough money involved to run it like a business. If you did the T.D. would make about .10 cents an hour for all the time they spend before and after a tournament. You would have to sell allot of discs, food, drinks, and other stuff to ever make a business from it. Even the P.G.A. don't pay anybody at there tournaments. It's all volunteer. It all goes to payout, administration. charity. You should want to do this to promote the sport not yourself. Open a store if you want to run a business. Unless you have a business licience you shouldn't be making money on other people anyway.

[Tim]

IMO, I don't think it is necessarily a "right" for people to know - but as crazydriver said, what is there to lose by being "above board" as a TD and upfront about the accounting for a tournament?
All that said, I'll gladly post my accounting for our Ice Bowl online...

Not to sound dismissive of the Pretzelbowl, as that's easily one of the best bang-for-your-buck tournaments I've ever had the pleasure of playing, but the waters get a little more muddied when you have to factor in stuff like player packs, payouts, scrip, lunch, water, artist compensation, etc. Last year, at Lakewood Open, I talked to a player who, looking at the payout breakdown, was pissed off that the Am2 payout was so much smaller than the Am1 payout. I explained to him that the Am2's got a fatter player pack and their entry fee was $10 less. Even though that makes perfect sense to most of us, he was still steamed. :rolleyes2:

I also wonder what can be done to provide incentives for TD's to run tournaments. As it stands, like Tim mentioned, TD's who take anything back for their hard work are shamed by players (99% of which contribute nothing to a tournament) which contributes to burnout.

Might be a bit controversial, but what about a mandated incentive from PDGA, even if it were a very small amount. For example TD's must take $50 for running a C-tier event - they can choose to donate back if they really want but something to destigmatize TD's getting something in return.

I've thought about the mandate idea too, as that would certainly be something to incentivize TDs and bring in more new ones, and I wouldn't be opposed to it. I could see there being complications though with the option to donate the money back to the tournament, where TDs who didn't donate back could be facing the same kind of stigma they do now.

One idea I had that I think would be pretty cool would be to have a tip jar for TDs. If players felt the tournament was well run and are appreciative of all the work the TD has put into it, they can give a little somethin' back as a way of saying thanks. The only thing is that I think somebody not affiliated with the tournament should be the one who brings the jar. A TD setting out a tip jar for him or herself seems a little, for lack of a better word, tacky.

Heh, thinking about the notion of tipping, it strikes me how odd it is that we regularly tip a buck or two for a beer or coffee, but people get bent out of shape about TDs taking a cut for themselves when running a tournament is exponentially more work. Maybe its the whole psychological aspect of "donating" vs. "costing"?

[Chad_from_BC]

I can't think of a single tournament I've played in any sport where the players are told how much the tournament organizers made. We're already super lucky to play a sport that's as friendly and open as it is. A sport where you can call the governing body and actually talk to the people who run it. A governing body that is non profit by the way. 99.9% of courses are free to play and are installed by volunteers. I'm not sure how much the cities and states give you guys in the USA but our club owes our city over 15,000$ still for the last course we put in. Or how about the fact that our pros are so open and approachable ? If Avery sends you an email he includes a vCard with his phone number and personal address. You can go on facebook and find quite a few pros. They cool and willng to talk to fans and answer questions. Last year before our tournament I played practice rounds with Feldberg, as I'm sure some of you on the forums have played with Dave too. Also, all tournamnets are staffed by volunteers and without TDs and them the professional side of our sport wouldn't exist.

And after all that some people feel the need to say 'TDs shouldn't make money' , 'all tournament $s should be made public' etc. Bah. Somewhere along the line someone has to get a little something back for keepng our sport alive and well and if it's 50-500$ who gives a shit.

Right now the only people making any money are the pros and the people who make or sell discs.

[LJ Jubner]

Wow 3 years ago Players could have cared less about financial transparency. It warms my old heart too see they do now. Hooray! Reality, actually won one.

I can share that the INWS series has pretty reasonable guidelines about most all of these issues.
The idea is not to nickle and dime the payout. Set limits for deductions for trophies, host fees (TD compensation if chosen) help ensure a very consistent series. In my opinion this is one area in years past the WA series has failed.

I bet most of you realize only a percentage of what really goes on to put even the most basic of events. From even deciding to be the TD, securing the venue, Taking registrations, eating your phone minutes, cards, signs, flyer's and we have not even outside yet. The maintenance of your equipment, the expense of fueling everything form your car to the gallons of mixed gas. The hours of work while other play around you. The blowhards who offer to help but no show.

Day before If it's not done by now it ain't getting done. Are you sold out or not? . try and keep all the money straight. This is entry, this is $10, these players renewed their memberships.

Oh, try and get some sleep

Now It's Day of the Show. Up butt crack EARLY!!! Punch list ( so you don't forget anything like your sleeping bag/air mattress) cause your punch drunk and head out. Get set up, signs out, Central up and the most popular question, What time do we start? Remember all the promotions I am offering, Meeting is over Everybody is actually on their way to their holes. Yeah it's finally started. I have two hrs to Actually get my shit together, crunch numbers for payout organize PP etc.

Here they come, What time is it? Can I offer an estimate of how long before next round starts?
Time to check cards, post scores and organize afternoon hole assignments Great someone did not turn in their card(s). and i get a whole hour to do it. Players Pack are gone. Now their is a problem with a miss added card. Payout posted and their are already some grumbling. Remember to promote reindeer games and fundraisers


Back out they go. It's time to start breaking it down for the night.
Here they come. Always first on site last off.

Go home and eat, repeat afternoon turn around, cards holes etc... Stuff your payout envelopes and once again try and really sleep this time.

Sunday Get up 30 min later then the day before, Pack up and head out. Set Up Central, promotions and fundraisers, Send them out.

Here they come, They are all anxious to get on the road home. Now we are under the gun, get the cards done while the promos continue, maybe ace pot throw off.

Awards.

Course drains like a bathtub while all evidence of the event remain. Signs back in, trash emptied. Central down. Pack up and go home.

Prediction, YOU will sleep tonight!

Monday I take off, Actually I don't by time I empty the car and such.

By Wednesday I have all the pDGA stuff in line, submitted and paid. Always use paypal for pDGA.


The bottom line is One person cannot do all of this without a sea of volunteers.
I personally am blessed by the support I get and it's very much appreciated Not to mention MGP ( Mrs Grouchy Pants)*

Go to a well run event and you will always find this phenomenon.

*she earned this moniker because I run events

[runnaman]

I think if you are going to run a tournament, you should do so because you want to grow the sport, not because of some monetary gain.

After running my first tournament on Saturday, I can honestly say that having people come up to me after the tournament to tell me, "Thanks for an awesome tournament" and "I had a lot of fun". That, in my opinion, is a lot cooler than getting a few bucks.

[ChUcK]

I want to hear how you feel after your 100th tournament.

[olydiscgolf]

I disagree. I believe people trying to profit from the sport is why we lose good T.D.'s. That's the main reason why I'm a non-profit club. For one, my books have to be open to the public. For two, in order to the sport to grow you have to give to it not take from it. There is not enough money involved to run it like a business. If you did the T.D. would make about .10 cents an hour for all the time they spend before and after a tournament. You would have to sell allot of discs, food, drinks, and other stuff to ever make a business from it. Even the P.G.A. don't pay anybody at there tournaments. It's all volunteer. It all goes to payout, administration. charity. You should want to do this to promote the sport not yourself. Open a store if you want to run a business. Unless you have a business licience you shouldn't be making money on other people anyway.

You are right about growing the grassroots of the sport through donations and doing it out of the goodness of your heart and love for the sport. But In order for this sport to get the recognition it deserves, people need to be able to make a living at it. Either playing, merchandise, or running events. Even large sponsors need to see some kind of return on their investment.

I don't foresee a TD getting rich from running events, and $.10/hour is probably more than most currently make, but I feel we need to progress this sport beyond that.

Like I would make any money on the events I run (they are all fundraisers for courses or people), but my two business license' and my non profit would pretty much cover me legally.

[LJ Jubner]

I don't sse tournaments as grass roots. We are preaching to the choir!

Grass roots to me are clinics for kids. public awareness and the biggest one volunteering on other projects other than just DG.

[Ol' Bob]

That, in my opinion, is a lot cooler than getting a few bucks.

There will be a lot of people who won't grok that in any degree. If they had it in the first place, many aspects of today's society tend to train it out of them. We can only hope this changes. But it is, of course, a capitalist country. It trains consumers for the furtherance of the corporate state. We will always want more in order to consume more.

Keep that spirit of service.

[Ol' Bob]

I want to know what happened to JubJub and who is writing his posts?

Damn, Jub. Though there were a few errors in punk-shoe-way-shun and maybe a "their" for a "there," once, that post looked like you cared about it and you, my good man, are a writer! Good work.:cheers:

[Parks]

There will be a lot of people who won't grok that in any degree. If they had it in the first place, many aspects of today's society tend to train it out of them. We can only hope this changes. But it is, of course, a capitalist country.

The other side of this coin is that if we only offer thanks for quality services, then we would be severely lacking quality services.

Appreciation is certainly a great form of payment, but that doesn't mean it should exclude other forms of payment.

[sillybizz]

What about local TD's? Those of us that run weekly doubles and monthly acepot tournaments and have to hear bitching and whining about something that someone doesn't like every week, what do you think would happen if I took out $5 or $10 from the payout for the day for the TD?

[runnaman]

This is just speculation, but what I've learned from my economics classes is, when there is more money to be made doing something, more people want to get in on it. Now, I know that we are not talking about a lot of money, but if it gets to the point where that is why people want to run tournaments, I think the quality of the tournaments will go down. I know that if you're not getting paid for something, and you do it anyway, you must have a real passion for that.

Hope that all made sense, just kind of threw it out there.

[Ol' Bob]

The other side of this coin is that if we only offer thanks for quality services, then we would be severely lacking quality services.

I think it has been pretty well illustrated that TDs will rarely receive monetary compensation equal to their efforts. Therefore, I think it's still a question of from where the quality arises.

Appreciation is certainly a great form of payment, but that doesn't mean it should exclude other forms of payment.

Did it sound like I was saying that?

I was merely noting someone voicing an understanding of the prime reason for service. Actually, if that isn't the impetus, it probably isn't service anyway.

[LJ Jubner]

Silly Yeah it's exactly the same just more time committed.

You now what weeklies, monthlies, Handicapped focused and most certainly anything that encourages the ladies. (We need prop 8 in DG, bad. Disabilities Act too!) as grass root opportunities. So I want to amend my previous post and add the people who cater to or run these types of events. Should be encouraged/supported as grass root supporters.

[CrazyDriver]

Do you care how the park director, staff and officials divide the money collected for Little League, Peewee football, soccer or tennis tournies? How much the burger flipper at McDonald's gets from your purchase?

Yes, I absolutely cared. The reason I helped out with Little League and Boy Scouts was because the organization was benefiting my kid. I assumed that the money was going for necessary expenses, not to line someone's pocket. Now I recognize that the Boy Scouts have some paid staff, but they are not directly putting my money in their pocket.

[DMajor]

People who complain about how other people donate their time to put on a disc golf event need counseling. There are things that can be improved at every tournament or weekly doubles event. Obviously nothing is perfect. But to shit on someone who is volunteering a large chunk of their free time to put on a tournament for the benefit of other people is one of the most annoying things I have heard.

In my experience it's usually the people who are finding an excuse for playing poorly that have the most complaints.

We should all be thanking the TD's and volunteers at every event wether we would have done things differently or not. Without them our hobby time would be much less fun.

[Chuck Kennedy]

Yes, I absolutely cared. The reason I helped out with Little League and Boy Scouts was because the organization was benefiting my kid. I assumed that the money was going for necessary expenses, not to line someone's pocket.
The money goes to pay labor costs of the park director, staff and officials so most of those fees ARE in fact going to line people's pockets.

[CrazyDriver]

Of course you don't have a "right" to know. Not a natural right or an earned right or a right conferred to you by some authority. You have a "want" to know.

And I want Angie Dickinson to tongue my balls.


Angie Dickinson is 78 years old. Maybe 30 or 40 years ago, but I think I'd want someone a little younger.

Ok, I have to admit I'm a little fuzzy on the organizational hierarchy. When you put on an event, presumably you have a sanctioning body or a club to provide some liability relief and insurance. If it's a PDGA event, they provide the insurance. If not, who knows. But if an event is sanctioned by a club, most clubs are non-profit by definition, and if the money was going back to the club, then that would show up in their accounting. Policing of profiteering by non-profits is probably sketchy, but I'll bet there is some rule written somewhere that requires accounting of the funds collected, that might be construed to give me the right. And I'm not sure I really want to know. Putting on events is time consuming and we could give the TD all the money and they might not ever do it again. But I was surprised at the idea that this knowledge should be hidden.

[CrazyDriver]

I also wonder what can be done to provide incentives for TD's to run tournaments. As it stands, like Tim mentioned, TD's who take anything back for their hard work are shamed by players (99% of which contribute nothing to a tournament) which contributes to burnout.

Might be a bit controversial, but what about a mandated incentive from PDGA, even if it were a very small amount. For example TD's must take $50 for running a C-tier event - they can choose to donate back if they really want but something to destigmatize TD's getting something in return.

I like this idea!:yay:

[CrazyDriver]

What about local TD's? Those of us that run weekly doubles and monthly acepot tournaments and have to hear bitching and whining about something that someone doesn't like every week, what do you think would happen if I took out $5 or $10 from the payout for the day for the TD?

Accounting at Terrace for Doubles is pretty transparent. $5 for Payouts, $1 for Ace Pot, $1 for course fund.

Do people bitch about the course fund? The only thing we are lacking there is accounting for the course fund after it has been accumulated.

[Tim]

This is just speculation, but what I've learned from my economics classes is, when there is more money to be made doing something, more people want to get in on it. Now, I know that we are not talking about a lot of money, but if it gets to the point where that is why people want to run tournaments, I think the quality of the tournaments will go down. I know that if you're not getting paid for something, and you do it anyway, you must have a real passion for that.

Hope that all made sense, just kind of threw it out there.

I don't think that's true. If a TD were running a tournament to turn a profit, it stands to reason that he or she would want to run the best tournament possible in order to drum up interest and participation. A couple examples that come to mind are tournaments put on by Jeremy Rusco (Dynamic Discs) and Steve Dodge (Marshall Street/Prime Discs). Both those guys put on tournaments that many say are some of the best out there, and they're profiting from those tourneys--if not directly out of the fees, then at least through advertising and scrip for their stores. These guys are making a living from selling disc golf gear and running tournaments, and I for one, think that is more than commendable.

But anyways, for those that aren't making a living from disc golf, I think it's more than fair for them to have a little something back. Even if someone were to take $50 for running a C tier, that's often still operating at a loss if you are counting up the work it takes to run a quality event.

[sillybizz]

Accounting at Terrace for Doubles is pretty transparent. $5 for Payouts, $1 for Ace Pot, $1 for course fund.

Do people bitch about the course fund? The only thing we are lacking there is accounting for the course fund after it has been accumulated.

It's actually $3 to pay out, $1 to ace pot and $1 to course fund and starting this week, half of the course fund collection is going towards the basket fund for Bicentennial, but that's another story.

[emmarose]

are people really that opposed to people being able to disc golf for a living? i hope some day that i can find a way to have disc golf be a productive part of my every day life... and that would mean that i would have to somehow profit from it... yes! i would charge people money for disc golf... and then i would put that money in my pocket to by my groceries and pay my bills... this is a huge pipe dream, of course, but i hope to someday be able to make it happen... all i want to do is disc golf... so that means i got to figure out some way to make it into a business, right? profiting from disc golf, so long as it is honest and above board, does not necessarily = evil, or so i believe.

... okay... i hesitate to post this... but here goes... now people can tell me what a horrible, capitalist piglet i am and why i'm ruining the sport... ;)

peace threw disc golf,
emmarose

[LakeStevensBA]

I actually think the TD should show his books at a tournament. If he wants to keep $50 or $100, that's fine...just show it in the books. The reason I feel this way is that I have seen a couple of tournies where the TD walked away with a large percentage of everyone's entry fees and/or sponsorship fees instead of paying it out in scrip/cash. If a TD is making a few hundred dollars, something is wrong. I realize these two events were extremely rare and 95% of TDs would never run an event just to make money.

The best payment I have received for running a tourney is a sincere thank you. No wait...someone gave me a killer bottle of red wine after Aquafest last year...that kicked ass. I say start giving liquid gifts to the TDs!

:cheers:

[Uhlman]

We have Pro Players... Therefore it stands to reason that there Shoud be Pro TD's. or am I way off base?

[olydiscgolf]

are people really that opposed to people being able to disc golf for a living? i hope some day that i can find a way to have disc golf be a productive part of my every day life... and that would mean that i would have to somehow profit from it... yes! i would charge people money for disc golf... and then i would put that money in my pocket to by my groceries and pay my bills... this is a huge pipe dream, of course, but i hope to someday be able to make it happen... all i want to do is disc golf... so that means i got to figure out some way to make it into a business, right? profiting from disc golf, so long as it is honest and above board, does not necessarily = evil, or so i believe.

... okay... i hesitate to post this... but here goes... now people can tell me what a horrible, capitalist piglet i am and why i'm ruining the sport... ;)

peace threw disc golf,
emmarose


:cheers:to capitol piglets!!

[Parks]

Did it sound like I was saying that?

I dunno, did it sound like I said you were saying that? :D

I was merely noting someone voicing an understanding of the prime reason for service. Actually, if that isn't the impetus, it probably isn't service anyway.

You may have lost me on that last statement. Care to explain that a little bit?

[Parks]

... okay... i hesitate to post this... but here goes... now people can tell me what a horrible, capitalist piglet i am and why i'm ruining the sport... ;)

In another thread you say you're a commie pinko, now you say you're a capitalist piglet...

Can you just decide which one you are so I will know whether to hate you or not?

[emmarose]

In another thread you say you're a commie pinko, now you say you're a capitalist piglet...

Can you just decide which one you are so I will know whether to hate you or not?

hahahaha!

...i'll never tell...

"i ain't no communist,
ain't no capitalist,
ain't no democrat
sure ain't no republican...

i only know one party,
and that is freedom..."

jackson browne

peace,
em

p.s. i know i wrote the lyrics wrong, but that's sorta kinda how it goes...

[Amber]

I was at the Mystery Tournament in Fall City on Saturday and heard a conversation about keeping tournament fee accounting private. Apparently PDGA allows tour directors to charge a maximum of $100 for their services, for a tier C event. Higher events allow more money for the tour director. One fellow said "can you imagine the bitching if people knew that the TD was taking some of the money instead of putting into payouts? It's not like TDs don't do a lot of work and deserve the money, but people would scream." Well, it seems to me that we all should know where all the money goes. I don't begrudge a TD compensation for his work, but don't I have a right to know that he is taking some of the money and how much? I mean, if you pay attention to the payouts, you can kinda figure out how much they had left. Why not be above board on this issue?

Mystery tourney in Falls City??? Why didn't I hear about this? I would have gone and made my dad go. I am from Falls City and he still lives there and I keep telling him he would love disc.

[Vector_2008]

I got no problem with the TD being paid. They work real hard. Especially if they are not playing. They are to busy running the thing.

Of course, I've also seen money issues pop up where too much money was paid out. That would come right out of the profits. The profits for the club running the tournament or the TD fund.

A TD should never lose their own money on a tournament. You all know some of them have to put their own money up front to reserve parks and such. Nothing wrong with using the profit from the last tournament to pay up for their next tournament.

[Ol' Bob]

Care to explain that a little bit?

Go back to my first post in this thread.

[Ol' Bob]

i know i wrote the lyrics wrong, but that's sorta kinda how it goes...

I'm not sure JB wrote those lyrics either, but his is the version in my head.

I am
I am
I am.......

Looked it up: it's by Steven Van Zandt.

[emmarose]

I'm not sure JB wrote those lyrics either, but his is the version in my head.

I am
I am
I am.......

Looked it up: it's by Steven Van Zandt.

:cheers:

... yeah... that's the problem with quoting stuff whilst at work... totally inaccurate 'cause i'm too lazy to look anything up... steven van zandt, huh? any relation to towns van zandt? i just saw steve earle do his tribute to towns van zandt show and it was quite lovely... or am i making up/combining names, now? i just whacked my head a couple minutes ago on the tiny, child sized door jamb at work and maybe i'm feeling slightly delirious...

peace,
em

[Ol' Bob]

...just whacked my head a couple minutes ago on the tiny, child sized door jamb at work and maybe i'm feeling slightly delirious...

At least you know a licensed care giver in the area now.

[emmarose]

At least you know a licensed care giver in the area now.

hahaha!

... and my boss did just bring me an ice pack before she left... i'm still just seeing one computer screen, so i think i'm okay to drive home...

[sillybizz]

Mystery tourney in Falls City??? Why didn't I hear about this? I would have gone and made my dad go. I am from Falls City and he still lives there and I keep telling him he would love disc.

It was Jub's mystery event number three, check out the thread in the Washington Events section.

[Ol' Bob]

Physician, heal thyself (and then drive home).

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Anybody that wants to set up a tip jar at the BSF is more than welcome to. Jeff Mittl was able to play the USDGC last year for TD-ing the Fling. The money of course had to come out of his own pocket. Lets make it possible for him to play again but paid for. (Mike as well if he can)

Bob

[DexterHawk]

I am always surprised when this issue comes up in the disc golf community how many people don't think that TDs should get paid and are pissed when they find out that they are. I know that we can play for free almost everywhere that we play and that this gives a skewed view of the value of disc golf but this is so ridiculous. How many of you know what percentage the grocery store you buy your beer from takes?

If you want better / more tournaments and better / more course get ready for a reality check folks... YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!!! Paying TDs not only honors them for their invaluable contribution to our sport, but it will create competition and instead of having to find a whole new batch of TDs every five years in every region in America we will have folks fighting for the job.

I am totally excited every time I have fun at a disc golf event and then I find out that the TD made money (ussually because they are my pals or because I am helping out behind the scenes). I complained to an older wiser disc golfer once about where my entry fee had gone in an event that I had won once and he set me straight.

No one plays to make a living! The more people who can support themselves through disc golf the more the sport progress... need evidence, look at manufacturers. They make money, each year we get an ever widening selection of discs that are manufactured to be just what we want SO THAT WE WILL BUY THEM! The same thing will happen if we value tournaments and private courses.

RANT OVER

whew

[cefire]

I disagree. I believe people trying to profit from the sport is why we lose good T.D.'s.

Through what mechanism is this the case?!?

If you did the T.D. would make about .10 cents an hour for all the time they spend before and after a tournament. You would have to sell allot of discs, food, drinks, and other stuff to ever make a business from it.

Totally agree


Even the P.G.A. don't pay anybody at there tournaments. It's all volunteer. It all goes to payout, administration. charity. You should want to do this to promote the sport not yourself. Open a store if you want to run a business. Unless you have a business licience you shouldn't be making money on other people anyway.

PGA tournament directors are indeed paid for running tournaments...just google it...not trying to run a business and for the record, I personally have never been "paid" for running a tournament - However, I think that TD's should be compensated either through reciprocation (which clearly does not happen) or otherwise (through entry fees).

[cefire]

Not to sound dismissive of the Pretzelbowl, as that's easily one of the best bang-for-your-buck tournaments I've ever had the pleasure of playing, but the waters get a little more muddied when you have to factor in stuff like player packs, payouts, scrip, lunch, water, artist compensation, etc. Last year, at Lakewood Open, I talked to a player who, looking at the payout breakdown, was pissed off that the Am2 payout was so much smaller than the Am1 payout. I explained to him that the Am2's got a fatter player pack and their entry fee was $10 less. Even though that makes perfect sense to most of us, he was still steamed. :rolleyes2:



I've thought about the mandate idea too, as that would certainly be something to incentivize TDs and bring in more new ones, and I wouldn't be opposed to it. I could see there being complications though with the option to donate the money back to the tournament, where TDs who didn't donate back could be facing the same kind of stigma they do now.

One idea I had that I think would be pretty cool would be to have a tip jar for TDs. If players felt the tournament was well run and are appreciative of all the work the TD has put into it, they can give a little somethin' back as a way of saying thanks. The only thing is that I think somebody not affiliated with the tournament should be the one who brings the jar. A TD setting out a tip jar for him or herself seems a little, for lack of a better word, tacky.

Heh, thinking about the notion of tipping, it strikes me how odd it is that we regularly tip a buck or two for a beer or coffee, but people get bent out of shape about TDs taking a cut for themselves when running a tournament is exponentially more work. Maybe its the whole psychological aspect of "donating" vs. "costing"?

BTW - Tim, I fully agree with you on all points here and have run more traditional PDGA events back East with scrip payout, normal entry fees/divisions, etc so I do understand the challenges with these types of events. Some of the accounting necessarily had to be best guess (and it was presented in a publically viewable manner to all club members), but I think that even some accounting is better than none.

[sillybizz]

I don't understand how you could get upset about a TD making a little money. People that run tournaments know how much work is involved, refer to post #16 in this thread, Jub breaks it down pretty well. No one gets pissed off at your local guy who sells discs out of his van for making profit and he hardly has to do anything but show up with plastic and take your money!

[cefire]

To summarize what I'm trying to get across because a few people think I am rabble-rousing for accountability. Not really the case, the accountability portion of my argument comes into play if/when TDs are compensated in any form for TD'ing events.

I'm not saying that current accountability is low or that current TD's are irresponsible - just that compensation (which I am in favor of) should come with increases in responsibility (accounting).

[sillybizz]

To summarize what I'm trying to get across because a few people think I am rabble-rousing for accountability. Not really the case, the accountability portion of my argument comes into play if/when TDs are compensated in any form for TD'ing events.

I'm not saying that current accountability is low or that current TD's are irresponsible - just that compensation (which I am in favor of) should come with increases in responsibility (accounting).

completely agree.

[ChUcK]

SillyBizz, I think you should take a cut from each Terrace Weekly. Say, 50 cents per head. That doesn't really compensate you for your time, but it would:

-give you some increased motivation to put on an even better event each week so more people show up
edit: not saying you run a crappy doubles, just talking relative terms here.

-spread awareness to the Terrace Weekly regulars that TDing the event really is as much of a commitment as a job

-probably get you enough to cover your entry fee

Since Terrace Weeklies are essentially non-profit, it would need to be publicly accounted for. What say you, Tim and Thor, who have run the event for extended periods of time? (Not looking for permission, just opinion)

[cefire]

I'm excited to hear everybody's thoughts here, been a really good discussion after getting past the initial knee-jerk reactions and into some of the meat. Some of the points brought up I hadn't thought of before - good food for more thought! :cheers:

Also posted up the financial summary I sent along with the PDGA TD report in case anyone is interested in the PretzelBowl thread. As Tim stated earlier, its probably the most simple tournament you can think of in terms of costs and income because you don't have to deal with estimating the cash value of prizes and payout, but I hope it is still helpful in contributing to this discussion so people can decide for themselves about all this.

[sillybizz]

SillyBizz, I think you should take a cut from each Terrace Weekly. Say, 50 cents per head. That doesn't really compensate you for your time, but it would:

-give you some increased motivation to put on an even better event each week so more people show up

-spread awareness to the Terrace Weekly regulars that TDing the event really is as much of a commitment as a job

-probably get you enough to cover your entry fee

Since Terrace Weeklies are essentially non-profit, it would need to be publicly accounted for. What say you, Tim and Thor, who have run the event for extended periods of time? (Not looking for permission, just opinion)

All I really want is for everyone to have a good time and go play golf. I have had a couple of people come up to me and tell me that I'm doing a great job running our weekly event and that is all I really want. That second point you made is really huge, most people don't even realize that I drive 50 miles round trip from my house to Terrace Creek every single week, it would be nice to have some gas money but still I don't think I would charge per person for myself; I just don't think I would feel right about it. I like the idea though.

[ChUcK]

I like the idea though.

That's because it's a good one.

[Toby Puttzinski]

TD's should be compensated IMO, but I agree with those that suggest some sort of limitation or range should be put on the maximum dollar amount earned for running a sanctioned event, outside of vending profits.
TD's running nonsanctioned events should gauge what is fair for them to pay themselves, depending on a number of factors.

TD's that run fundraiser events should be compensated as well... I like the idea of a third party bringing in a tip jar for the TD, and any other sort of reciprocity.... well maybe not any sort.:blush:


Weekly events are usually designed to benefit a club, so perhaps the club could reward those that volunteer their time to run club events, rather than deducting directly from the entry fees. Thomas, I think setting up a lemonade stand would be a great idea for you to earn some gas money.:wink2:

[purediscgolf]

This has been a nice Thread to read. Thanks for all the interesting thoughts.

Being a Pro and a TD puts me in with a small group. It takes great dedication to even THINK about running a good event. If you don't feel you're able to put together an event to the best of your ability......Don't do it then!! There is nothing worse than a tournament holding on by a thread IMO....Give the responsibility to someone who will cherish the opportunity.

It was my decision that I could not run a full 2010 NW Series to the best of my abilities. Therefore, I have called upon other players to take the reins this year. The Emerald Valley Open and Umpqua Valley Championships are going to be held this year. Dates are TBA. These events are going to focus on fun and may or may not be PDGA. This is not to say that the PDGA rules will not be in effect. It just adds some pressures to an Event to make it PDGA.....But if popular demand requests it.....Give the people what they want.....

No matter how much you think a TD is walking away with......There is no way it could be enough to cover 'minimum wage'.....We do it for the love of the game......I for one wake up with Disc Golf on my mind EVERY single day.....No matter what I do....I think of making this game better and more accessible to the general public....

This is one area where we seem to be lacking....Simple access.....How many Basketball courts are in local parks??? Course Developers are the real Diamonds in the rough...After all, without the courses, where are we playing tournaments?

Sponsors???? I have yet to hear peoples thoughts about sponsors......If each player could acquire just $25 cash sponsorship for example then a TD may be able to take a cut.....Have a Nice PHAT Payout......Bigger player's packs, payouts, cost of events could be off-set....the list goes on.

Sponsors are the future of Disc Golf....or we are doomed to repeat the past......What happened to the Bud Lite Wintertime Open?

[Joshua Olmsted]

Watching everyone get all riled up over an issue that actually has almost no debate in the thread is always entertaining to me, so far only one person has stated that they think TDs shouldn't be reimbursed for their services. lol.

My $.02, I have no huge personal issue with TDs being reimbursed for concrete costs like driving costs, materials thrown in, that sort of thing, but I do feel that it should be listed publicly, people should be able to factor that into deciding what events they play each year. Remember, some folks have a lot less money these days. What I often state, when this sort of thread emerges every few months or so, is that I don't want to see a broad commercialization of the sport. I believe that much of the strength of the sport and part of what draws me to disc golf over a sport like ball golf is the real sense of grassroots organization. So much can and has been accomplished through volunteer efforts that I question this sort of assumption that the best eventual arrangement has to be a business-style running of events and courses.

[Parks]

Go back to my first post in this thread.

I had already read that, and it didn't seem to develop the thought as much as I hoped.

[Ol' Bob]

Why do I suspect you're bored?

[REDFIVE]

I like the TD tip jar idea.

[LJ Jubner]

Maybe some sort of tournament evaluation form might work?

[snap7times]

pdga has tournament evaluation forms ready for TD's and players to use.
TD's should always be compensated for their work if they obviously did alot of work. But if TD chooses to take nothing or very little, then cool...

[LJ Jubner]

pdga has tournament evaluation forms ready for TD's and players to use.
TD's should always be compensated for their work if they obviously did alot of work. But if TD chooses to take nothing or very little, then cool...

The pDGA evaluation form you speak of is at best a token effort and only offered to a select few to respond too.

[all2common]

The pDGA evaluation form you speak of is at best a token effort and only offered to a select few to respond too.

I intend to use their form for my first tournament. Hopefully folks will take the time to use them so that I may learn from any mistakes that I will undoubtedly make.

[roadrash420]

The way I see it is, you have 3 choices if you don't like how the monies are dispersed;
#1. don't play that tourney
#2. run your own tourney or
#3. play the tourney because you love the sport.

Just my $.02

[emmarose]

I am always surprised when this issue comes up in the disc golf community how many people don't think that TDs should get paid and are pissed when they find out that they are. I know that we can play for free almost everywhere that we play and that this gives a skewed view of the value of disc golf but this is so ridiculous. How many of you know what percentage the grocery store you buy your beer from takes?

If you want better / more tournaments and better / more course get ready for a reality check folks... YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!!! Paying TDs not only honors them for their invaluable contribution to our sport, but it will create competition and instead of having to find a whole new batch of TDs every five years in every region in America we will have folks fighting for the job.

I am totally excited every time I have fun at a disc golf event and then I find out that the TD made money (ussually because they are my pals or because I am helping out behind the scenes). I complained to an older wiser disc golfer once about where my entry fee had gone in an event that I had won once and he set me straight.

No one plays to make a living! The more people who can support themselves through disc golf the more the sport progress... need evidence, look at manufacturers. They make money, each year we get an ever widening selection of discs that are manufactured to be just what we want SO THAT WE WILL BUY THEM! The same thing will happen if we value tournaments and private courses.

RANT OVER

whew


thank you. this was really well said... pretty much what i was trying for the first time around, and then somehow ended up just talking about myself... hahaha!

peace,
em