PDGA Rating Question

[Chef]

If someone takes first in a PDGA tournament, does that mean they need to enter into a higher division next tournament?

[Trozzle!!!]

Nope :)

Once my rating is too high to play MA3, then I have to move up to MA2 in PDGA events.

I am only assuming you were talking about me of course

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Advanced MA1 All Any (required for 935+)
Intermediate MA2 All < 935
Recreational MA3 All < 900
Novice MA4 All < 850

As long as your player rating is below 850 you can actually play Novice, however I've yet to see a Novice division available. My player rating as of today is still 722 so I am able to play and win any division above my rating. Trozzle as good as he played at the first Slosh event is still well below 900 so he can stay in MA3 (Rec) and win as many as he wants. Not gonna happen though. :nono: It's still hard for me to imagine that as well as I've been playing lately that I'm still not even close to actually being considered a MA3 (Rec) player. :blush:

Chef, if you'd like to enter the next Slosh event and play Novice (MA4) I'd be ok with seeing if the TD will let me drop down to form a new division. We need 4 player to have a division.

Bob

[LegoRules]

Hey if you guys formed the Novice division for the 2nd Slosh I may be able to talk my husband into joining as well. He is pretty new to the game, and has never played in a tournament before.

Cindy :)

Advanced MA1 All Any (required for 935+)
Intermediate MA2 All < 935
Recreational MA3 All < 900
Novice MA4 All < 850

As long as your player rating is below 850 you can actually play Novice, however I've yet to see a Novice division available. My player rating as of today is still 722 so I am able to play and win any division above my rating. Trozzle as good as he played at the first Slosh event is still well below 900 so he can stay in MA3 (Rec) and win as many as he wants. Not gonna happen though. :nono: It's still hard for me to imagine that as well as I've been playing lately that I'm still not even close to actually being considered a MA3 (Rec) player. :blush:

Chef, if you'd like to enter the next Slosh event and play Novice (MA4) I'd be ok with seeing if the TD will let me drop down to form a new division. We need 4 player to have a division.

Bob

[essjay]

Updates are done! :)

[Sam]

To answer the O/P...

No... but they should move up.

Recreational - in my opinion - does not mean someone who plays multiple times per week every week, has competed in multiple tournaments and won at least one. I don't give a shit about ratings or whether I should be paying attention to the names or not. Recreational should be for those who see DG as a recreational pursuit, not a regular hobby. Novice should be for people's first event - period.

Been playing for 2+ years and played in tournaments before? You should play Intermediate. Suck too much to cash? Oh well... get better. But don't make tournaments bottom-heavy just because you can. Bagging happens at all levels, apparently.

[Scott]

To answer the O/P...

No... but they should move up.

Recreational - in my opinion - does not mean someone who plays multiple times per week every week, has competed in multiple tournaments and won at least one. I don't give a shit about ratings or whether I should be paying attention to the names or not. Recreational should be for those who see DG as a recreational pursuit, not a regular hobby. Novice should be for people's first event - period.

Been playing for 2+ years and played in tournaments before? You should play Intermediate. Suck too much to cash? Oh well... get better. But don't make tournaments bottom-heavy just because you can. Bagging happens at all levels, apparently.

I assumes that this means you will immediatley begin playing pro. Suck to much to cash? Oh well... get better.

[Bullseye]

I assumes that this means you will immediatley begin playing pro. Suck to much to cash? Oh well... get better.

Well, if you takes Sam's comment completely out of context, yes, that might appear to be a correct statement, but his comment was aimed squarely at Novice and Recreational players.

Sam plays in Advanced Amateur, which is the highest of all of the Amateur classes. No one, regardless of rating, can be FORCED to play Pro. There are many reasons why this is true, many of which I do not agree with, but the rules are the rules.

[Sam]

Thanks, Jeff. :cheers:

Technically, the rules are the rules that allow a seasoned tournament veteran to play Recreational, but the spirit of the rules are being missed here, I believe. We are now talking about multiple people who have been playing in casual tournaments for 3+ years, have been playing every week (sometimes multiple times per week) over those three years, who are playing in a division called Recreational. It just doesn't seem right to me.

As for Scott's comment directed at me... I have moved up. Not down, mind you... as some of you "Rec" players have done... but up. My first tournament was as a Rec player. Then I played Intermediate for a while until I won a tournament - not PDGA, mind you... just a tournament. Now I play at the next level, Advanced. Regardless of how I do next season, I will be moving up to Pro Masters for local tournaments and Advanced Masters for PDGA events - until after Am Worlds 2010. Then I will be a Pro Masters' player who might dip his toe into the pro field. So... :nahnah:

[Scott]

Yeah, yeah.... I knew my comment was unfair when I made it. Thought I'd try to slip that in. :biggrin2:

BUT... You won't get me to cave so easily on the issue of MA3. Yeah, I play several times a week (not lately :() and yeah, I've played in several tournaments. But how have I finished in those tournaments? The BSF this year was by FAR my best tourney to date - I took last cash. Most other times I'm in the bottom third. Yeah, I play all the time and have played in many tourneys. I should be a lot better - Hell, I wish I was. Fact is, my rating (and the PDGA guidelines) say I belong in MA3. I think many of the other MA3 players that you're calling out are in the same boat.

Take a look at the last several PDGA tournaments in our state. For the most part, you can draw a line right in the middle of the MA2 field. Those on top have ratings >900, those on the bottom have ratings <900. If those on the bottom half formed their own division (MA3), you would have two competitive divisions instead of one divison with the same five guys fighting for first and everyone else fighting for last cash.

[all2common]

Technically, the rules are the rules that allow a seasoned tournament veteran to play Recreational, but the spirit of the rules are being missed here, I believe. We are now talking about multiple people who have been playing in casual tournaments for 3+ years, have been playing every week (sometimes multiple times per week) over those three years, who are playing in a division called Recreational. It just doesn't seem right to me.


The rules are the rules...that's why people play sanctioned tournaments so that everybody is playing by the same ones. Right?

At any rate, how does it affect you?

[Sam]

It just seems to me that Rec and Novice should be there to suck players in and get them hooked on the tournament scene. I don't think that they should be divisions that people should stay in long-term but should be relatively quick stepping stones to a higher level of play.

Imagine you come to your first tournament playing Rec... and find out that the majority of the field you are competing against has been playing for 3 years. Seems like a disservice is being done to everyone here.

Hiatt, are we supposed to just comment on or care about things that affect us directly? Really?

[Scott]

It just seems to me that Rec and Novice should be there to suck players in and get them hooked on the tournament scene. I don't think that they should be divisions that people should stay in long-term but should be relatively quick stepping stones to a higher level of play.

Imagine you come to your first tournament playing Rec... and find out that the majority of the field you are competing against has been playing for 3 years. Seems like a disservice is being done to everyone here.

Hiatt, are we supposed to just comment on or care about things that affect us directly? Really?

I think that is the intention of MA4 - for newer players. Fact is, we really don't see a lot of people asking to play this division because there aren't that many new players joining the tournament scene. It's always the same old crowd. Secondly, there is such a stigma with "Rec" - who would want to play Novice? That's why I don't like to use those names - I think the PDGA was right when the realigned the divisions a year or so ago, but they erred when naming them.

[Sam]

I think it was a bad idea. Not financially and not as a business decision for the PDGA but in general I think that it will slow down the number of players looking to play up.

Again, though...

Imagine you come to your first tournament playing Rec... and find out that the majority of the field you are competing against has been playing for 3 years. Seems like a disservice is being done to everyone here.

[Scott]

I think it was a bad idea. Not financially and not as a business decision for the PDGA but in general I think that it will slow down the number of players looking to play up.

Again, though...

Imagine you come to your first tournament playing Rec... and find out that the majority of the field you are competing against has been playing for 3 years. Seems like a disservice is being done to everyone here.

1. I wouldn't think much of it, especially if I was able to compete against those guys.
2. If everyone who is currently playing MA3 moved to MA2, when the new guy comes along there wouldn't be anyone to play against, right?

[all2common]

Hiatt, are we supposed to just comment on or care about things that affect us directly? Really?

Nope. It's absolutely within your right to comment on anything you'd like to.

The point that I was attempting to articulate was that if folks feel like the division that they choose to play in makes them more competitive, then that should be fostered. Because you think them moving up would make them more competitive is beside the point.

[Sam]

1. I wouldn't think much of it, especially if I was able to compete against those guys.

Really? At the end of the day you wouldn't be like... "Those guys suck." I would.

2. If everyone who is currently playing MA3 moved to MA2, when the new guy comes along there wouldn't be anyone to play against, right?

This is a good and valid point. Honestly, I don't think there should be two novice divisions to accommodate beginner players but I guess the powers that be at the PDGA feel differently about it.

[Sam]

The point that I was attempting to articulate was that if folks feel like the division that they choose to play in makes them more competitive, then that should be fostered. Because you think them moving up would make them more competitive is beside the point.

Well, my desire is to see our sport grow more competitive as a whole. I do not think lower-rated players staying in a lower-rated division playing against other lower-rated players helps that goal, ultimately.

[Scott]

Well, my desire is to see our sport grow more competitive as a whole. I do not think lower-rated players staying in a lower-rated division playing against other lower-rated players helps that goal, ultimately.

Frankly, I tried the "getting your ass handed to you in a tougher division" route for the last couple of years. That hasn't worked out too well, so I'm giving this a try. :laughing:

To be honest, my short term goal is to work my way out of MA3 within the next couple of updates. Once I do, I plan to have my ass handed to me by Sam in Advanced Masters.

[Scott]

Really? At the end of the day you wouldn't be like... "Those guys suck." I would.



This is a good and valid point. Honestly, I don't think there should be two novice divisions to accommodate beginner players but I guess the powers that be at the PDGA feel differently about it.

There isn't two Novice divisions. There is one (MA4). There is a level above that (MA3) for those that aren't ready (ratings wise) to play MA2.

[Sam]

Yes, yes... I know that there are technically two divisions. I just fail to see the usefulness of both and would think that people would be trying to get out of both as soon as they can.

[D-Walk]

Yes, yes... I know that there are technically two divisions. I just fail to see the usefulness of both and would think that people would be trying to get out of both as soon as they can.

Personally I think it's great that there is a Rec division, even if people feel like my abilities are better then I think they are. That being said, i do think people should play where they like, if their ratings allow.

I have no rating, have played in 2 tournaments and definitely felt when signing up for Slosh #1 and the upcoming #2, that the Rec division was where I needed to be. I think playing in a tournament is a hell of a lot different then just playing a round with friends. i found this out the hard way when I blew up in round 2.

However, I personally feel that playing up makes me a better player. I had a great time playing Rec, and look forward to playing it again, but most likely will move up just so that I surround my self with better competition. I'm not taking away from the others that are playing Rec, because I have played with most of you that are signed up in Rec for Slosh #2, and don't consider myself any better.

I do think that it is a personal choice, as long as you are meeting guidelines. If you just want to play at a rec level then definitely play there, but don't sell yourself short just for comfort reasons. If we keep growing the sport then hopefully we will continually have players in Rec and up.

When it's all said and done, let's just throw some plastic, talk some trash, and have the times of our lives.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

:explode:Geeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzz CHEF...............see what you cooked up now? :explode:

Bob :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

[Chef]

Trozzle:

Not talking about you.... why does it all have to be about you? :)

I see this a flaw in a lot of sports and compatition. If someone wins a division, they can keep playing that division until the overall score or ratings push them over.

I played footbag competitivly for years. Same thing with martial arts. They had one thing in common... if you won a division, you moved up into then ext division. That was interiging for all.

As for disc golf, doesnt really matter to me. I just love playing. The first tournament... kicked my ass. Two rounds killed me! But I loved every minuted if it!

[smobro]

1) Play your casual rounds with better players. It will make you better. Of course it just makes them worse.

2) Play your tournament rounds within the guidelines provided by the PDGA and the TD. This is by intelligent design.

3) Attend the skills clinics at each PDGA sanctioned event. That will make you better also. Oh, wait, we don't have skills based clinics during each PDGA sanctioned event. :slapface: We should. I would totally dig getting some quality tips from guys who are better. The problem is that when you are trying to get tips during a competitive round, you are sort of annoying to the group you are playing with. Plus, have you ever tried to change something during a competitive round.

Logic has been applied.

[smobro]

1) Play your casual rounds with better players. It will make you better. Of course it just makes them worse.

2) Play your tournament rounds within the guidelines provided by the PDGA and the TD. This is by intelligent design.

3) Attend the skills clinics at each PDGA sanctioned event. That will make you better also. Oh, wait, we don't have skills based clinics during each PDGA sanctioned event. :slapface: We should. I would totally dig getting some quality tips from guys who are better. The problem is that when you are trying to get tips during a competitive round, you are sort of annoying to the group you are playing with. Plus, have you ever tried to change something during a competitive round.

Logic has been applied.



Oh and welcome Dave W. Glad to see you are getting into the fray. Looking forward to throwing with you.

[Sam]

I think that we should remember that there are two things one can take away from guidelines - the same as we can take two things away from the law. 1, the letter of the guideline. 2, the spirit of the guideline.

I agree that you all are within your right to sign up for this division and think you should if it makes you happy. You get to play with good people. You do. Tournament-wise, however, you will end up playing with the same guys over and over and will not advance your game. If your goal is recreation, you will achieve this. If your goal is to get better at tournament disc golf, you need to start climbing the ladder. Up.

Personally, I think the guidelines are flawed and I was both surprised and dismayed to see the PDGA expand divisions on the lower end rather than on the upper end. Not saying that that would have been a better idea - just was surprised at the direction it took.

[Trozzle!!!]

Personally for me, I could play MA3, MA2. MA1, Pro, whatever? in a tourney and still have the same amount of fun. I dont play disc golf to become the greatest player in any division, I play this for fun. I prefer to play MA3 right now because it is more fun, and less pressure on the competitive part. I finally won my first tourney of any kind. If I continue to win tourneys in the MA3 ivision, I woul gladly move up. 1 win in any division doesnt make me want to move up anytime soon.

[LegoRules]

Novice should be for people's first event - period.

I have a question. If you had a group of true first timers that was their first tournament ever, and they were all say in the Novice division how would they manage to get through a course on their own. I mean there are rules to be followed, and certain etiquette as well that must be learned. I played in my first tournament ever earlier this year at the Chick Flick tournament, and there was a lot of women who had never played a tournament before let alone disc golf. The new players were all in the Rec division, and were put in groups with the more experienced players form the upper divisions. I know I really appreciated that, and learned a lot. I mean I did not even know how to score before that tournament let alone any of the etiquette. My point is I think it would be less intimidating for a new players to play with some experienced players and learn some of this stuff, as opposed to fumbling around the course not really knowing what they are doing. For instance my husband has never played in a tournament before, but he would much rather play in a group with some guys that knew what they were doing as opposed to a bunch of guys that did not know what they were doing. Just an observation not trying to stir the pot or anything.

Cindy :)

[Bullseye]

I have a question. If you had a group of true first timers that was their first tournament ever, and they were all say in the Novice division how would they manage to get through a course on their own. I mean there are rules to be followed, and certain etiquette as well that must be learned. I played in my first tournament ever earlier this year at the Chick Flick tournament, and there was a lot of women who had never played a tournament before let alone disc golf. The new players were all in the Rec division, and were put in groups with the more experienced players form the upper divisions. I know I really appreciated that, and learned a lot. I mean I did not even know how to score before that tournament let alone any of the etiquette. My point is I think it would be less intimidating for a new players to play with some experienced players and learn some of this stuff, as opposed to fumbling around the course not really knowing what they are doing. For instance my husband has never played in a tournament before, but he would much rather play in a group with some guys that knew what they were doing as opposed to a bunch of guys that did not know what they were doing. Just an observation not trying to stir the pot or anything.

Cindy :)


Cindy,

Knowing what I know now (after playing for several years) I would suggest that you have the newer players sign up for Recreational and just let them know ahead of time not to have exceptionally high expectations. I would say try Novice, but realistically I doubt we would have enough people sign up for that division for it to be viable. I'd suggest you set the stage with them as the whole thing being a learning experience, and if they play well they can pleasantly surprised. It really is about having FUN first!

Jeff

[Sam]

Also possible to have a marshall or someone who knows the rules follow them around and help them out. Of course, I understand twig-snapping happens at higher levels, too. :whistler:

[Sausage Fingers]

Of course, I understand twig-snapping happens at higher levels, too. :whistler:

This is the ONLY statement that you have made in this entire thread that I agree with!

You sit there in your high tower and talk about how lower rated players should all 'play up'. I got one thing to say to you: BITE ME!

If you are so concerned with getting people to move up you are looking at the WRONG end of the AM scale my friend. And what keeps players who always have a good chance to win AM1 or AM2 from moving up? The fact that massive amounts of players compete in those fields. That jacks the payouts for winning AM1 or AM2 WAY higher than they would have a realistic of making in the higher divisions. Now if you have all 4 AM divisions you have split up the giant fields and the payouts will be smaller. That makes the reward for playing a higher division ACTUALLY HIGHER! Imagine that?!?

If everybody played where their rating dictated then the divisions would be smaller and so would the payouts. There is another way to encourage those that want payout to move up: make the payouts MUCH more shallow. MA1 pays out to top 30%; MA2 pays out to top 45%; MA3 pays out top 60%; MA4 plays for trophies with the rest of the entry fees used for players packs. Smaller divisions with shallower payouts and those that are in it for payout will move up faster and those preying on the lesser players will not see the easy pickings that encourage sandbagging.

There is no reason for there to be a 60 player AM1 division when there are not 60 Am players rated above 935! But what keeps a 975 rated player playing AM? The chance to fleece the other 59 players out of their entry fees.

But a reason that most PDGA tourneys don't offer AM4 IS speed of play. And when tourneys fill before they start there is no reason to offer AM4 when you can fill it with higher paying entrants.

Besides, you should get your AM4 training at smaller events, get the basic rules under your belt and then jump into PDGA competition in MA3. Play in that division until your rating rises and moves you into MA2. Play in that division until your rating rises and moves you into MA1. By the time that you are playing in MA1 you should start to decide if playing Pro is something that you want to try. This works for the majority of the people who play DG.

Now if you are talking about freaks of nature like Ron The Whip who improve MUCH faster than the average, skipping divisions and moving up to improve your play is a valid argument. But just because it works for RTW doesn't make it the standard that all players should follow.:pirate:

NEW FORUM RULE: If you are playing Pro or your rating is above 935 you get NO SAY about the subject of AM3/AM4.:explode:

[proto something or other]

NEW FORUM RULE: If you are playing Pro or your rating is above 935 you get NO SAY about the subject of AM3/AM4.:explode:

Does this include Team Golf ratings? Or just PDGA ratings? Either way, I think I am still cool.

I think people should play where they are comfortable, although I do think there should be a ratings cut off for playing in Am divisions vs. Open divisions. (Or a different equally brilliant solution to prevent sandbagging).

Ok, bye.

[Scott]

This is the ONLY statement that you have made in this entire thread that I agree with!

You sit there in your high tower and talk about how lower rated players should all 'play up'. I got one thing to say to you: BITE ME!

If you are so concerned with getting people to move up you are looking at the WRONG end of the AM scale my friend. And what keeps players who always have a good chance to win AM1 or AM2 from moving up? The fact that massive amounts of players compete in those fields. That jacks the payouts for winning AM1 or AM2 WAY higher than they would have a realistic of making in the higher divisions. Now if you have all 4 AM divisions you have split up the giant fields and the payouts will be smaller. That makes the reward for playing a higher division ACTUALLY HIGHER! Imagine that?!?

If everybody played where their rating dictated then the divisions would be smaller and so would the payouts. There is another way to encourage those that want payout to move up: make the payouts MUCH more shallow. MA1 pays out to top 30%; MA2 pays out to top 45%; MA3 pays out top 60%; MA4 plays for trophies with the rest of the entry fees used for players packs. Smaller divisions with shallower payouts and those that are in it for payout will move up faster and those preying on the lesser players will not see the easy pickings that encourage sandbagging.

There is no reason for there to be a 60 player AM1 division when there are not 60 Am players rated above 935! But what keeps a 975 rated player playing AM? The chance to fleece the other 59 players out of their entry fees.

But a reason that most PDGA tourneys don't offer AM4 IS speed of play. And when tourneys fill before they start there is no reason to offer AM4 when you can fill it with higher paying entrants.

Besides, you should get your AM4 training at smaller events, get the basic rules under your belt and then jump into PDGA competition in MA3. Play in that division until your rating rises and moves you into MA2. Play in that division until your rating rises and moves you into MA1. By the time that you are playing in MA1 you should start to decide if playing Pro is something that you want to try. This works for the majority of the people who play DG.

Now if you are talking about freaks of nature like Ron The Whip who improve MUCH faster than the average, skipping divisions and moving up to improve your play is a valid argument. But just because it works for RTW doesn't make it the standard that all players should follow.:pirate:

NEW FORUM RULE: If you are playing Pro or your rating is above 935 you get NO SAY about the subject of AM3/AM4.:explode:

Wow. Nicely said. I agree with every word. :pirate:

[Sam]

I was waiting for Jordan to chime in, actually.

In this area, I think the sport's governing body should place more focus on how to make tournament players better - not find ways that they do not have to improve because they can continue to compete at a very low level.

That is all.

[Sausage Fingers]

I was waiting for Jordan to chime in, actually.

In this area, I think the sport's governing body should place more focus on how to make tournament players better - not find ways that they do not have to improve because they can continue to compete at a very low level.

That is all.

Tournament players who want to get better will get better with practice and by playing lots of DG. Players who work full time and have a family and are lucky to get out once a week deserve a division to play in too. When they can make time to play a PDGA tourney they shouldn't be forced to play in a division that gives them no chance to win. It's not all about the top players and you're dreaming if you think the sport will ever equal stick and ball golf.

This is a sport that can be played by people of all ages and abilities. The rating system is what we have, let's let it do the job it is supposed to do. I really think that smaller AM pools will get people who want payout to move up faster than belittling them on a forum.:pirate:

[Sam]

I don't think I was belittling anyone, Jordan.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this subject because it is clear that we do.

[zippyboy]

Ok, I have a question. I have not joined the PDGA for a couple of reasons (none which need to be discussed in this thread, though), so I am unclear on this issue... Can a PDGA sanctioned tournament be ran that has only AM3 and AM4 divisions (if I am understanding correctly that these are the two lowest divisions)? THAT may be something that could help to grow the competitive side of the sport. Just my $.02, but please, let me know...

[Magilla]

Ok, I have a question. I have not joined the PDGA for a couple of reasons (none which need to be discussed in this thread, though), so I am unclear on this issue... Can a PDGA sanctioned tournament be ran that has only AM3 and AM4 divisions (if I am understanding correctly that these are the two lowest divisions)? THAT may be something that could help to grow the competitive side of the sport. Just my $.02, but please, let me know...

Yes, a Tournament Director CAN limit the divisions that are offered.
As long as it is "posted" ahead of time........:whistler:

There are regions that hold seperate events...Pro/Advanced and Intermediate & below.
:cheers:

[zippyboy]

Thank you, sir. It would just seem that this would be a better way to grow the sport. Keep the payout for the divisions, in the divisions. The ripoff (or such as it seems to me) of taking a large portion of the entry fee and giving it to higher divisions has kept me out of everything PDGA associated...

Please don't take this as a slam on the PDGA, this is just my view for right now. And, to head off a typical reply; yes, I am seriously considering volunteering my time to do such an event.... :nahnah: And I also figure that I would need to become a PDGA member to do such a thing, correct?

[Bullseye]

Thank you, sir. It would just seem that this would be a better way to grow the sport. Keep the payout for the divisions, in the divisions. The ripoff (or such as it seems to me) of taking a large portion of the entry fee and giving it to higher divisions has kept me out of everything PDGA associated...

Please don't take this as a slam on the PDGA, this is just my view for right now. And, to head off a typical reply; yes, I am seriously considering volunteering my time to do such an event.... :nahnah: And I also figure that I would need to become a PDGA member to do such a thing, correct?




Hey Zippy,

I know you didn't want to get into a big ordeal over this subject, but I did want to clarify one thing for you. The situation with the payouts you are concerned with really does not happen as often as you might think, and certainly not in this area. Neither the Oregon Series or the Stumptown Series take money from one division and give it to another. The entry fees from each division get put into a pool of prize money for that division. The cost of the players pack and any misc fees (like park usage, end of year championships etc) get subtracted from that amount. The remainder gets divided up by the people who cash.

I know at least one person who keeps telling people this garbage (in spite of the fact that it is not true), but I'm really not here to attack anyone. I just wish people would stop trying to drive a wedge into our community with disinformation.

Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up, because it really bugs me.

See you at a course somewhere!

Jeff

[Magilla]

Hey Zippy,

I know you didn't want to get into a big ordeal over this subject, but I did want to clarify one thing for you. The situation with the payouts you are concerned with really does not happen as often as you might think, and certainly not in this area. Neither the Oregon Series or the Stumptown Series take money from one division and give it to another. The entry fees from each division get put into a pool of prize money for that division. The cost of the players pack and any misc fees (like park usage, end of year championships etc) get subtracted from that amount. The remainder gets divided up by the people who cash.

I know at least one person who keeps telling people this garbage (in spite of the fact that it is not true), but I'm really not here to attack anyone. I just wish people would stop trying to drive a wedge into our community with disinformation.

Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up, because it really bugs me.

See you at a course somewhere!

Jeff

Jeff is absolutely correct on this. The Oregon Series DOES NOT ALLOW money to be transfered between divisions.
The ONLY difference may be the ADDED money that the TD puts into each division. That is solely up to the TD. I also have heard people complain that money is taken from lower divisions to "pad" the higher ones. That is NOT the case with Oregon Series events.

To clarify further...
YES, to run a PDGA event you MUST be a PDGA member AND a PDGA Official (which is just a matter of taking and passing the officials test)

:cheers:

[Sausage Fingers]

To clarify further...
YES, to run a PDGA event you MUST be a PDGA member AND a PDGA Official (which is just a matter of taking and passing the officials test):cheers:

And one of the benefits to a Stumptown membership is $5 off your PDGA membership and FREE officials tests. That's $15 right there from your $10 Stumptown membership. And in case you're in a hurry and want to get going on that MA3/MA4 tourney, a Stumptown membership purchased now is good through the end of 2009 and we have the tests in-house right now for you to take.

[zippyboy]

Thanks, Magilla and Bullseye. I wasn't trying to insinuate that any one tournament or series (especially local ones) were engaging in this practice. It may have been poorly worded on my part, sorry. It just seems that, in some instances, the lower divisions get the shaft. That's all. But this is also why I wanted to make it part of the discussion. As I have stated, I am on the outside (of the PDGA, and really, a lot of the tournament scene, in general) looking in, and that was and is, merely my perception.

Please note, this is not a veiled attempt on my part to slam anybody, or anything. So if I worded something to sound aggressive, it is/was not intended as such.

And, Jordan, thank you for letting me know about the Stumptown tie-in with the PDGA. I have been contemplating finally breaking down and getting my PDGA membership, so I will take this into account. And, I would most likely join up with Stumptown as well. Seems that the anti-Washington sentiments that were expressed in the initial meeting appear to have faded - cause that was pretty much what had been keeping me from rejoining.

To borrow a phrase: :pirate:

[Magilla]

It just seems that, in some instances, the lower divisions get the shaft. That's all. But this is also why I wanted to make it part of the discussion. As I have stated, I am on the outside (of the PDGA, and really, a lot of the tournament scene, in general) looking in, and that was and is, merely my perception.


:cheers:
Something that seems to be "missed" by some players are the fees involved, which can make it seem that lower divisions are getting the shaft.

Heres an example....using the Oregon Series as a model

Rec Division (Am3) has 5 players paying $40 each to play in a B Tier event.

This make $200 total entrys. Of that $5 goes to the Series and $3 goes to the PDGA.
200 - 40 = $160 left
Now you have to pay for your players Package, IF at cost a T-Shirt and Disc will be about $18, IF retail about $35. Lets use "at cost".
$160 - 90 = $70 left.
Now you have to pay for you trophys...
Lets say that you are using the REAL NICE Suhocki Basket Trophies at $30 ea and only give out 2 of the 5 places
$70 - 60 = $10
NOW you have to take out YOUR share of the Insurance & Sanctioning ($125 total for a B-Teir) AND any other fees associated with the event.
(Park Fees, Printing costs for scorecards, etc)
Its usually about this point that the TD is disgusted with the lack of payout and then PUTS MORE added cash perperson into this group than ANY OTHER division just so there can be ANY payout at all.
:slapface:

The PDGA desires that TD's focus more on Players Packages and NOT on payout for the lower divisions. Notice that this year & last, the Memorial has NO PAYOUT for ALL AMATEUR divisions. They focus on giving a Player Pack that is worth more than DOUBLE the entry fee (thanks to sponsors) and has Trophies only for the top finishers.

:cool2:

[Pizzel]

Thanks, Magilla and Bullseye. I wasn't trying to insinuate that any one tournament or series (especially local ones) were engaging in this practice. It may have been poorly worded on my part, sorry. It just seems that, in some instances, the lower divisions get the shaft. That's all. But this is also why I wanted to make it part of the discussion. As I have stated, I am on the outside (of the PDGA, and really, a lot of the tournament scene, in general) looking in, and that was and is, merely my perception.
Zip...would you mind giving any specific examples of the instances you mentioned in your post? This might help focus the discussion a bit.

[zippyboy]

I am honestly not trying to duck the previous question, but I have no specifics for you. Sorry. This is an old perception that I have dating back to when I first started looking into playing tournaments (a little more than two years ago). It seemed (at that time, and based upon the two or three tournaments I was reviewing results for) that for the number of people entered into each respective division, the payout (scrip or otherwise) appeared to be far more skewed to the higher division, regardless of the number of competitors.

As I haven't really looked into playing much competitively since then, this may have changed, and I may not be aware of it. If so, again, sorry. An old perception. I am very intrigued about the idea of running an AM3 and AM4 only event, though. And I also appreciate the depth of information about all of this, without feeling like I am being attacked or talked down to. You guys rock. Thanks.

Now that we've drifted this thread out to sea, should we move it? Just curious...