Changes to High Bridge

[Evil T]

I am going to throw this out there, and then you guys can tell me how I am wrong. The recent changes to High Bridge seem to benefit players of a higher caliber. Almost all ace run holes have been eliminated. I understand some of the pro players would like a more challenging course, but we are a community of disc golf players. You don't gear your course for your top 10%. Even us terrible ams like to get a birdie now and then.

Some examples of baskets that were changed:

4. Could be an ok hole, but needs to be cleaned up a lot. Also people leaving 4's basket now have to walk across the fair way to get to 5 slowing the game down more.

5. Was tough before, but with the tee box farther back is ridiculous. Also a hole that needs so cleaning. Too many little trees and branches. Also in it's previous location it was a possible ace. I know it had to be moved because of the road, but it didn't have to become one of the hardest holes.

6. Just a mess. Too many trees to get through, and when the bushes start growing in it will be terrible.

8. That tee box farther back is crazy. You truly have to thread the needle.

10. Don't have a problem with the length, but it's in the wrong location. Again we are walking for some time through the fairway to get to 11. Off to the left by the road would have been better. Also 10 needs to be cleaned up. You can have a great drive and just not have a route to the basket.

13. Not a terrible hole, but I always liked the chance of hit the old basket. Even ball golf has easy par 3s every now and then. Needs to be cleaned up also.

17. Should be moved back.

Also, many of the new baskets are also gonna need some maintenance once everything starts growing in. I have no problem helping out in this regard, but don't want to start cutting trees and bushes down without some approval.

Another idea is instead of changing all the holes you could have alternate tee pads. It could then be two different courses with two different skill levels. If we want to keep this sport growing we need to consider the skill level of the recreational players. Some of these players are the future of the sport, and the ones spending money on new merchandise. If we want more courses, more players wouldn't hurt.

Now here's where you guys tell me I am wrong. Do your best.

[Sky Pilot]

Dear Evil T,

I see it as more challenging as well. However, these are 'alternate' pin placements and the old ones will periodically be revisited.
On another note we must keep in mind that this is not our land. We are 'under' the Parks Department and do not have to pay a 'land use fee' as some courses do.
We have an edict from the Park Dept. that we are not to cut trees or bushes, so you may have good point about what to do about the undergrowth. Should something absolutely need to be done about the 'living things' in the parks we would need to seek an 'exception' from Parks. They, however, are not obligated to grant it.
As Mr. Bressler our Parks Operation Manager recently said, "Don't F%#$ with the land!"
So, we have to work with them not against them. Please leave any 'clearing' to the SDGA board official work parties.
Thanks for playing. I hope I run into you sometime and we can talk further.

I'm hoping that some of the more difficult holes will bring my game up to a new level. I've already almost birdied hole #9 in the new position several times.

Check out People's Park and see what type of course you would like to see in that area. They offered it to the SDGA recently when I was in a meeting with 3 park officials. We have a bucket course there now and you can find a map of it on this forum.

Blessings,

Sky Pilot
Jeff Crum
Steward
:angel:

[Parks]

I am going to throw this out there, and then you guys can tell me how I am wrong. The recent changes to High Bridge seem to benefit players of a higher caliber. Almost all ace run holes have been eliminated.

The only ace run hole to have been eliminated was 5, which was by necessity (city won't let us throw across the road). In fact, one has been added (hole 7 short position), and one has been made easier due to teepad location (hole 1 short)

I understand some of the pro players would like a more challenging course, but we are a community of disc golf players. You don't gear your course for your top 10%. Even us terrible ams like to get a birdie now and then.

I think you're missing the point of challenging holes. They are not for the top 10% that can shoot well under par, but for the 70% of players that are looking to improve their game and become better disc golfers. Note that this 70% contributes almost 100% of the money for new courses and course improvement.

Some examples of baskets that were changed:

4. Could be an ok hole, but needs to be cleaned up a lot. Also people leaving 4's basket now have to walk across the fair way to get to 5 slowing the game down more.

4's alt isn't a great hole, but not for the reasons you are suggesting. 20 seconds walking across a fairway to get to another hole isn't a big deal, but a minute walking back the whole length of a fairway is.

5. Was tough before, but with the tee box farther back is ridiculous. Also a hole that needs so cleaning. Too many little trees and branches. Also in it's previous location it was a possible ace. I know it had to be moved because of the road, but it didn't have to become one of the hardest holes.

This hole is a little thick right now, but most new holes start out that way. As the hole gets used over time, the fairway becomes more well-defined.

6. Just a mess. Too many trees to get through, and when the bushes start growing in it will be terrible.

Yes, this placement is largely a lucky hole, and it can punish shots off by 6 inches just as bad as shots by 100 feet. The SDGA's facilities coordinator has a good solution for this, though it is only in the discussion phase at this point.


8. That tee box farther back is crazy. You truly have to thread the needle.

There is a completely fair gap on the left (15 feet wide at a range of 30 feet?), and an even wider gap on the right if you can throw a bit higher and shape your line. This teebox wasn't moved simply because of the fact that the old hole was essentially a gimme birdie for a righy sidearm or thumber. It was moved because it pools with water any time it is wet and becomes unsafe. We will eventually add long-term fixes for this by slightly raising teeboxes a half inch or so and compacting gravel under them so they remain flat and drain properly.


10. Don't have a problem with the length, but it's in the wrong location. Again we are walking for some time through the fairway to get to 11. Off to the left by the road would have been better. Also 10 needs to be cleaned up. You can have a great drive and just not have a route to the basket.

This has some merit, but we are not allowed to clear more routes. Also, off to the left is mostly too open and would make it either just a hole for big arms or a boring approach for people that couldn't reach the pin. I do like the hairy green on the alt placement, as it makes you play golf rather than just running everything.

13. Not a terrible hole, but I always liked the chance of hit the old basket. Even ball golf has easy par 3s every now and then. Needs to be cleaned up also.

This hole is actually fantastic in the alt position, while the old position was just a layup and a putt. Ball golf has easy par threes, and High Bridge still has them all over the place. Old 13 was the equivalent to a 70 yard ball golf hole, which ball golfers would also find ridiculous.


17. Should be moved back.

You didn't give a reason. That being said, the pin will be alternated when the rest of the course is alternated. I think every 3 months was the initial time frame, but we might wait for the vegetation around the old pins to grow back a little more.

Also, many of the new baskets are also gonna need some maintenance once everything starts growing in. I have no problem helping out in this regard, but don't want to start cutting trees and bushes down without some approval.

The SDGA will schedule work/maintenance parties as needed. Do not attempt to trim anything, as messing with the land is the #1 way to get our courses pulled.

Another idea is instead of changing all the holes you could have alternate tee pads. It could then be two different courses with two different skill levels. If we want to keep this sport growing we need to consider the skill level of the recreational players. Some of these players are the future of the sport, and the ones spending money on new merchandise. If we want more courses, more players wouldn't hurt.

This is all true. The only thing holding it back is funding and intelligent course design.

[Evil T]

I guess I can just see a trend beginning. Besides 7 what hole was changed in the favor of the recreational/amateur player. Also to be honest 7 has that temporary feel to it. Doomed like 13.

I agree there is a percentage of people that want to improve their game. The course had holes for them to do that.

I just think we are heading in the wrong direction with High Bridge. I don't have a problem with challenging holes, but they don't all have to be a challenge. To grow this sport we are gonna need people that feel welcome and comfortable on the disc golf course.

[Parks]

To grow this sport we are gonna need people that feel welcome and comfortable on the disc golf course.

I absolutely agree.

The SDGA does not have a monopoly on disc golf in Spokane.

Why don't you find a bunch of like-minded recreational/amateur players and start a club with the goal of making easier courses on plots of land that aren't suitable for challenging courses?

I bet you could find a lot of schools and communities with local parks that would be happy to support you in such endeavors.

[Eric whippet Brown]

I know eagle ridge has ace run holes or easy easy par 3's most of the holes are a lil bit longer than 13 in the short position. We will move baskets back and forth to try and keep everyone happy, but the course is going to stay challenging. Maybe down the road when we get peoples park developed we can make that a pitch and putt and wide open holes, so we don't discourage all the new players. Just kidding about the pitch and putt, we don't need one of those, but it sounds like we might with the changes to highbridge affecting the newbies. I like the fact that I really have to try and throw better to get a 8-10 under score.

[Wobbly Bob]

:chinscratch: If we could figure out some way to get player scorecards turned in to the club, I could figure out what the World Class Par is for Pro players and then figure out what Par is for our Am players.

I would also be able to figure out PDGA local ratings for those players that are not PDGA members. This might solve the not enough Pros for the Pro/Am weekly tournaments by allowing the TD to split the players into two groups using the local players ratings.

If there is any interest in doing this all we need to do is start collecting individual scorecards with the following info on them;

Player's Name
Player's PDGA# (if a member & current)
Course Name
Hole by hole scores


The more cards that are turned in, the more accurate the figures will be.

We could use the donation box at Downriver as a scorecard collection point.

[Adam Schneider]

The SDGA does not have a monopoly on disc golf in Spokane.

Why don't you find a bunch of like-minded recreational/amateur players and start a club with the goal of making easier courses on plots of land that aren't suitable for challenging courses?
So you're saying the mission of the SDGA does not include helping to establish beginner-friendly courses in the Spokane area? Do you speak for the whole club? If so, they ought to be up front about that. And if so, that comes across as selfish and cliquey.

[Sky Pilot]

:chinscratch: If we could figure out some way to get player scorecards turned in to the club, I could figure out what the World Class Par is for Pro players and then figure out what Par is for our Am players.

I would also be able to figure out PDGA local ratings for those players that are not PDGA members. This might solve the not enough Pros for the Pro/Am weekly tournaments by allowing the TD to split the players into two groups using the local players ratings.

If there is any interest in doing this all we need to do is start collecting individual scorecards with the following info on them;

Player's Name
Player's PDGA# (if a member & current)
Course Name
Hole by hole scores


The more cards that are turned in, the more accurate the figures will be.

We could use the donation box at Downriver as a scorecard collection point.

I sometimes see a player playing Pro one week and Am the next. It is also sometimes disconcerting when two people that 'I' consider to be 'Pro' playing together as AM and PRO. I would be in favor of a way that would make doubles more fair to everyone. Is it possible to do handicap doubles? I know it's 'random' to some extent on the draw but maybe there's something else we could try. On the other hand, truthfully, I'm not complaining when I get the best pro player on my side like I did in the LCO Doubles. We ended up 14 down. : )

Sky Pilot
Steward
:angel:

[Eric whippet Brown]

What makes a course beginner friendly? Wide fairways and short holes? What kind of distance do we need to make it easier and challenging? Its pretty hard to make a course short when u have land like we have to work with. I suppose peoples park should be our lil beginner course then after you master shorter holes come over to the PRO highbridge layout? I want to add alt pins to downriver so should I make some of those holes shorter? I started playing at downriver when I first started playing and it was tough I got over how hard it was and now I'm a better player, I think if a holes to far for a person, move ahead of the tee and practice from there.

[Evil T]

Like minded, huh? Well I'm glad I signed up for the SDGA now.

Personally, I don't have a huge problem with High Bridge. My 67 year old father might (yes he plays). My 9 year old nephew might (trying to learn). My friends from work might. I don't wanna tell them this course isn't for you anymore. Go play Eagle Ridge.

Also if Eagle Ridge is so wonderful why isn't it even listed on this forum. Cause it's not wonderful. It's a joke of a course, a pain to get to, and they don't want you there. They put up signs to tell ya. Actually I don't consider Eagle Ridge an accurate representation of disc golf. I don't think I would still be playing if that was where I learned to throw.

And why does High Bridge have to be a pro course. For the 19 pros in the area?

[Parks]

So you're saying the mission of the SDGA does not include helping to establish beginner-friendly courses in the Spokane area? Do you speak for the whole club? If so, they ought to be up front about that. And if so, that comes across as selfish and cliquey.

And you come off as someone who hasn't read my posts. This has been addressed.

[Adam Schneider]

And you come off as someone who hasn't read my posts. This has been addressed.
Admittedly, I haven't read all of your posts in every thread. Where was this addressed?

[Edit: re-addressed below, I see.]

[Parks]

Like minded, huh? Well I'm glad I signed up for the SDGA now.

Your whole post indicates that you don't really get what Eric and I are saying, but I'll address this one again.

The SDGA is working to put in disc golf courses on the land that the city allows, and the SDGA will try to make the best course that they can at People's Park and Camp Sekani (the two pieces of land that we currently have to work with for new courses). I don't know the shape they will take or exactly how challenging, but they will not be pitch and putts.

If we were the ones trying to get something in at Plante's Ferry, then you would very likely see a much easier course than High Bridge being put in due to the available land to work with there.

The majority of SDGA members and people giving money to us at tournaments and weeklies want to improve their game and want to challenge themselves to get better and EARN birdies. There is no better feeling than birding a hole for the first time, and then becoming better at the game and birding it often.

I also don't understand how you want easy holes, then you say that Eagle Ridge is a "joke of a course." Especially when you say that you want hole 13 in the normal position, since it is similar to the holes at Eagle Ridge.

Your message is confusing at best.

If you do want to be a proactive member of the SDGA and bring in some easier courses, then please put in the leg work to prove that you are serious. Find communities, organizations, and schools that are willing to fund and/or provide land for easy, more family friendly courses. Like I said before, if you do that then I guarantee that the SDGA will provide the needed support to get those courses in.

We absolutely do need some beginner and family friendly courses in the area, but we currently are short on funds for even one course and have our plate full with beautiful pieces of land.

[Dixon011001]

I absolutely agree.

The SDGA does not have a monopoly on disc golf in Spokane.

Why don't you find a bunch of like-minded recreational/amateur players and start a club with the goal of making easier courses on plots of land that aren't suitable for challenging courses?

I bet you could find a lot of schools and communities with local parks that would be happy to support you in such endeavors.






I like your alternate club idea. Can other clubs use your courses? If another club does start could it put in allternate tee pads?

[Evil T]

I never said i want easy holes, nor did I say to move 13 back. I commented about some of the changes, and said we need to consider the whole disc golf community. Originally my biggest complaint was the course need to be cleaned up a lot, and maybe there were other options than moving the baskets.

Actually, since I am a member of the SDGA am I right in assuming there is a voting process on course changes? And why are we changing existing courses. Why not make these new courses pro?

[Parks]

I like your alternate club idea. Can other clubs use your courses? If another club does start could it put in allternate tee pads?

The courses are public so anyone can use the course and play there.

As for teepads or other modifications: Only with permission of the SDGA. There needs to be direction and supervision of changes rather than rogue course "improvement." People have broken branches and cut trees in order to make holes easier without the consent of the SDGA, and it has only caused problems and jeopardized the courses.

That being said, if you could fund/find your own land for a course then it would be your direction and supervision required for course changes (in association with the land owner, of course).

[Parks]

I never said i want easy holes, nor did I say to move 13 back. I commented about some of the changes, and said we need to consider the whole disc golf community. Originally my biggest complaint was the course need to be cleaned up a lot, and maybe there were other options than moving the baskets.

This is all very viable.

Actually, since I am a member of the SDGA am I right in assuming there is a voting process on course changes?

Yes, the next meeting is 6pm Feb. 8th at Luigi's downtown. Downriver will probably be on the agenda, but High Bridge will not since the expansion (not change) has taken place. High Bridge's old pin placements will all still be used, as will the currently unused alts.

And why are we changing existing courses. Why not make these new courses pro?

We will do what suits the land given appropriate funds. I personally think that People's Park could be a great SSA (scratch scoring average) 54 course. People's Park will certainly be on the agenda Feb. 8th. Come and voice your opinion.

[ScottW]

You can please some of the people all of the time but you will never please all of the people all of the time. Think about this - Have you played Farragut? If so how was it? Did you play the 9 hole pitch and putt that is family friendly? Did you or would you play Farragut just to play the 9 hole easy course? I am guessing probably not because the other two courses are bigger and better and challenge your game in different ways and you realize that while short easy holes are necessary for the extreme beginners to get comfortable they are not what bring players back for more. I believe the SDGA is moving in the right direction and I also believe that there are suitable areas for shorter courses that would cater to the less skilled but I also think that it should be some of those players who persue these other avenues. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the good work SDGA, I already think you are doing better than last year.

[Evil T]

Maybe I do have the wrong mind set. Maybe we should concentrate on the players that need to be challenged more. Maybe new players should be segregated off to a different course. I really don't see less skilled players building a new course, but that is an option. I guess I need to look from everyone's perspective.

I do apologize for starting this thread. My original point has been muddled, and the thread has become malicious.

[Eric whippet Brown]

I'm going to try and figure out a schedule to move baskets in alt positions and the club is in the process of making new tee signs. I hope to have signs up ASAP and figure what layout is A or B, I also have all materials for a kiosk so we can let the players know what layout is in play. I would also like opinions on changing the basket #'s to have 11 as hole 1, more people park and start on A street so it would make more sense? So then that makes me want to put the kiosk up by hole #11. Any ideas on anything let me know. I have an idea for hole 6 and 7 alt tee's and pins, but I don't know if it will make the course harder for others because it adds distance on hole 6 but a open natural fairway. I will put paint down on Wed when I have a crew helping me clean up and get more tee boxes fixed.

[Parks]

Maybe I do have the wrong mind set. Maybe we should concentrate on the players that need to be challenged more. Maybe new players should be segregated off to a different course. I really don't see less skilled players building a new course, but that is an option. I guess I need to look from everyone's perspective.

I do apologize for starting this thread. My original point has been muddled, and the thread has become malicious.

I think your original point is strong "consider the rec players."

That being said, I think the tone of some of the posts in this thread have been misinterpreted.

Eric: Hole 1 is down in the bottom because the gazebo is an easy place to set up tourney central.

For local players, it doesn't matter a whole lot what you actually call hole 1.

[Timber]

I have an idea for hole 6 and 7 alt tee's and pins, but I don't know if it will make the course harder for others because it adds distance on hole 6 but a open natural fairway.

Speaking for myself, I would rather play a longer hole with a legit fairway than a shorter one where luck is the dominant factor.

I'm impressed by the effort everyone is putting into this. Forward momentum is good even if the process gets messy at times. Ultimately what we are all working towards is for Spokane to have the best course options possible.

[Wobbly Bob]

Chase Middle School has a 7 hole course set up. The tee boxes are not marked so you can tee-off from anywhere you want. There are no trees to make the game more challenging. There are some elevation changes.

Blue Grass Park in Cd'A, ID. has a very beginner friendly 9 hole course set up but some of the holes are close to 250'.

I still think that generating am pars for our courses would solve this problem.

[Wobbly Bob]

If the Spokane Parks Dept. were to give us a community park to develop a pitch and putt in, I'm sure that after we have finished the projects we are working on presently we could raise the $5400 it would cost to install a nine hole course.

[Adam Schneider]

Why not just add amateur pads to one of the existing courses? No new land is needed, and the pro pads can be as tough as the pros want them to be. Everybody wins.

[Eric whippet Brown]

All we did was add alt pin locations and now its a tougher course, so what, it's not going to stay that way 4 ever. I'm sure as soon as we move it back to its original layout, someone will complain on how easy it is? Just play the course get better and then all will be good. It will be impossible to please everyone, I think newbies should be exposed to various types of holes that will make them work on different shots. As soon as we made changes to highbridge it gets played way more than normal, so there are people that do like it and don't, so its going to be a gradual change that everyone is going to have to accept.

[General Scales]

So I love the new layout at Highbridge. I agree that it's not beginner friendly but it's not supposed to be. Just like Eric, I started @ Downriver and Farragut. Neither one of those places is beginner friendly (I didn't know about the 9 hole till a year after I started playing).

As for making a beginner friendly course, has anybody tried to secure Sullivan Park for disc golf? I was in talks with Matt Stone @ Spo Valley Parks and Rec but we lost touch. The place could be made into a Corbin'esque style course. 15-18 holes. Nothing over 400 feet. Lots of wooded shots but thats what makes people learn to throw better. If it's always open where is your improvement?

Just something to think about since Sullivan Park, in my opinion offers way more potential for a great place to huck then Plantes Ferry.

[DiscGolfRules]

All we did was add alt pin locations and now its a tougher course, so what, it's not going to stay that way 4 ever. I'm sure as soon as we move it back to its original layout, someone will complain on how easy it is? Just play the course get better and then all will be good. It will be impossible to please everyone, I think newbies should be exposed to various types of holes that will make them work on different shots. As soon as we made changes to highbridge it gets played way more than normal, so there are people that do like it and don't, so its going to be a gradual change that everyone is going to have to accept.





Join the SDGA. Pay $20, sit down, shut up, and accept it. That membership provides the wright to be innsulted by board members for giving input to a club you payed to join. This is why I did not renew this year and never will again.

[Parks]

As for making a beginner friendly course, has anybody tried to secure Sullivan Park for disc golf? I was in talks with Matt Stone @ Spo Valley Parks and Rec but we lost touch. The place could be made into a Corbin'esque style course. 15-18 holes. Nothing over 400 feet. Lots of wooded shots but thats what makes people learn to throw better. If it's always open where is your improvement?

Just something to think about since Sullivan Park, in my opinion offers way more potential for a great place to huck then Plantes Ferry.

There are some people working with the Valley/County/whoever owns it to put something in at Sullivan. I believe they have the goal of starting a club that will hopefully materialize around this summer.

[Parks]

Join the SDGA. Pay $20, sit down, shut up, and accept it. That membership provides the wright to be innsulted by board members for giving input to a club you payed to join. This is why I did not renew this year and never will again.

Right, because that's exactly what happened here.

Just because my opinion is the same or similar to a few others on this board, my opinion is somehow less valid? And when I voice it, its not a concern, its an insult?

Please.

[DiscGolfRules]

Calling someone a newbie is an insult and you know that.

[DiscGolfRules]

Then you told him to go play somewhere else. Weird club recruiting there.

[Eric whippet Brown]

I'm sorry if I insulted anyone with the newbie comment. I should have said beginner or intermediate ams. And as far as sit down and pay your money and not have a voice in the SDGA your pretty much wrong there, that's why we have more club meetings. We have a piece of land across from highbridge that I'm getting the feeling we need to make more beginner friendly. I think that if your an SDGA member and don't like the highbridge layout and would like a beginner friendly course, then propose something for peoples park. It would be a lot easier to design a shorter course then try and fix highbridge to be more friendly to the newer players of the sport.

[Dixon011001]

After reading all this I think having an A and B tee pads might be best. Many other courses do this and then its like doubling the number of holes also. Due to my schedule I can not attend pdga meetings but would be willing to map out allternate tee pads and send them to someone. It seems to me this could also be done with the new peaples park as well. Then that new location does not have to be easy and high bridge hard. Both locations could provide both. Hell it could be down at downriver also then everyone would have lots of options for throwin.

[ScottW]

I think this has been a good discussion on a polarizing topic. Don't apologize for making the post, it has started a good debate and both sides have had good points. I will agree that the tone that some people have isn't ideal but at least everyone is passionate about disc golf. I think Mirabeau Point Park could be home to a great 9 hole course that could be kept in the trees and not interfere with other park users too much. That said, I highly doubt that the city would agree and if they did I doubt they would put any money into it. I think the short tee/long tee option is a fair one I am just not sure how suitable it would be to incorporate at DR or HB. Again, just my 2 cents.

[friable7]

You can please some of the people all of the time but you will never please all of the people all of the time. Think about this - Have you played Farragut? If so how was it? Did you play the 9 hole pitch and putt that is family friendly? Did you or would you play Farragut just to play the 9 hole easy course? I am guessing probably not because the other two courses are bigger and better and challenge your game in different ways and you realize that while short easy holes are necessary for the extreme beginners to get comfortable they are not what bring players back for more. I believe the SDGA is moving in the right direction and I also believe that there are suitable areas for shorter courses that would cater to the less skilled but I also think that it should be some of those players who persue these other avenues. Just my 2 cents. Keep up the good work SDGA, I already think you are doing better than last year.


Nice that you mentioned Farragut. Very well designed and groomed to take into account many different levels of players. High Bridge could have a similar look and feel to it if we were able to do some grooming of the land. Could you imagine standing on 4's tee and trying to decide to hyzer the long way to the right or go for a lengthy very tight key hole placement up to the pin from amongst all those saplings to the left of the tee? There are tons of things we could to improve the play and approach of the holes that would not necessarily make them "easier" but enhance the play for all levels of players. Just need an intelligent design that could be sold to the powers that be.

[catalystdg]

putting in alt tees is the best solution and has been suggested to the board (and the person in charge before their was a board) many many times over the years but because it costs more money than alt pins has never been supported by a few people. but the new board is doing a very good job listening to all the players willing to put in their 2 cents and I'm sure whatever happens will be the best for disc golf as a whole.
and my two cents is that highbridge even with the new harder holes is no where near a pro level course and doesent play much harder now than it did before. an equal number of holes were made easier as well as those that were made harder.

[General Scales]

I think this has been a good discussion on a polarizing topic. Don't apologize for making the post, it has started a good debate and both sides have had good points. I will agree that the tone that some people have isn't ideal but at least everyone is passionate about disc golf. I think Mirabeau Point Park could be home to a great 9 hole course that could be kept in the trees and not interfere with other park users too much. That said, I highly doubt that the city would agree and if they did I doubt they would put any money into it. I think the short tee/long tee option is a fair one I am just not sure how suitable it would be to incorporate at DR or HB. Again, just my 2 cents.

Mirabeau is the dream location of the valley but alas, according to Matt Stone (who was the last person in charge at Spokane Valley Parks and Rec that I knew of) it will never happen. Three things come into consideration with why it won't.
1.) Parking. Plain and simple. Disc golfers take up a lot of parking and since there is so very very little of it in the area, it's a big problem.
2.) They get 1600 dollars for weddings and receptions and pics taken by the waterfall. If you wish to rent the whole place out, that is the base fee. Since we can't raise that amount of cash, it's a no go.
3.) Park users. The trails are too populated with too many people for it to be 'safe'. He did go on to say that the area that is fenced off would be great for it and maybe one day if the parking is fixed, there might be a possibility there.

Now back to Highbridge. Alt tee's for all the holes would be sweet but could quite possibly interfere with play on some of the holes. Some would really benefit from an alt tee for noodle arms and people that are just playing casually. Especially 4. Perhaps do what was done with hole 3 and place a paint marking on the ground off to the left in the road. Shorten it up and make it a much more neutral shot for those who can't get it done on the regular. There are a few other holes that this could be done with and would make a definite improvement for casual players and new disc golfers.

I just don't know what the stance is of Spokane Parks and Rec about having paint laid down on the service roads...

[Parks]

Then you told him to go play somewhere else. Weird club recruiting there.

Filtering people to the correct location for their skill level is logical, no? People should play where they can enjoy playing. If they enjoy a challenge, that's great, if not, another course may be better suited to their skill.

There's a Men's rec league for hockey in Spokane. I joined the B league because that's my skill level. I could join the A league if I wanted to challenge myself and join the C league if I wanted easy mode.

I didn't join the A league and then say they should make the goal bigger because I can't score.

[Parks]

After reading all this I think having an A and B tee pads might be best. Many other courses do this and then its like doubling the number of holes also. Due to my schedule I can not attend pdga meetings but would be willing to map out allternate tee pads and send them to someone. It seems to me this could also be done with the new peaples park as well. Then that new location does not have to be easy and high bridge hard. Both locations could provide both. Hell it could be down at downriver also then everyone would have lots of options for throwin.

Chris, thanks for being proactive and constructive.

You see a problem and not only identify a solution but offer your time as well.

I know you're not exactly a Rec player, but this is the kind of stuff that helps the SDGA become a better club.

That being said, funding is still the major issue with alt. teepads.

[joeroyer]

Through all of this angry talk i will try and stay positive. To the players wishing to make High Bridge less difficult for beginners:
Bring real solutions to the club at the meeting on the 8th, or to Eric Brown, facilities coordinator.
Do Not raise your hand at the club meeting and ask how they plan to fix the course.
Do bring viable solutions to the club, if this means you have to site examples of what other clubs in other cities have done to their courses, then take 2 hours and do some homework. If that means that you have to print a map of the land at high bridge and walk around the course plotting out shorter alternate cost effective tee positions, then do it.
A lot of us have given a lot. Do your part, if you are prepared with something to say, they will listen.
If they don't, email me. It's my username @ yahoo.com.
I have every board member's cell number and nothing better to do then talk about Disc Golf

[Sean Johnson]

There is another Sullivan option that I've been bouncing around in my head for a while. East of the Sullivan bridge there is a narrow strip of land that extends about a mile upriver. We used to paintball there, but as far as I know, it's mostly used by homeless people now. There is substantial ground cover that would swallow discs, and the river would almost always come in to play. Could make a nice little course though...

[Eric whippet Brown]

Hey Joe I'm raising my hand to let people know the club meeting is on the 8th at 6 pm @ Luigis you had the date for the 2010 SDGA Spokane CHILLY BOWL and we don't need to bring up this stuff then, were going to have a good time for a good cause with all the food for 2nd harvest food bank were raising. So please if you have any ideas about anything I will more than listen to them at the meeting or after the tourney if I'm still around. I do have discount putting coupons for the putting contest after the meeting.

[General Scales]

There is another Sullivan option that I've been bouncing around in my head for a while. East of the Sullivan bridge there is a narrow strip of land that extends about a mile upriver. We used to paintball there, but as far as I know, it's mostly used by homeless people now. There is substantial ground cover that would swallow discs, and the river would almost always come in to play. Could make a nice little course though...

as far as i know central premix has issues with that idea. another great plot is the land across from scraps. its owned by the washington state department of transportation. they be more willing to let it be used. probably easier to deal with than the parks department as well.

[joeroyer]

Hey Joe I'm raising my hand to let people know the club meeting is on the 8th at 6 pm @ Luigis you had the date for the 2010 SDGA Spokane CHILLY BOWL and we don't need to bring up this stuff then, were going to have a good time for a good cause with all the food for 2nd harvest food bank were raising. So please if you have any ideas about anything I will more than listen to them at the meeting or after the tourney if I'm still around. I do have discount putting coupons for the putting contest after the meeting.

K, fixed the date, thanks

Oh, and bring your rakes and shovels and leave your discs in your car, give Eric an hour tomorrow and reap the rewards all summer

[Eric whippet Brown]

Thanks Troy,Brandon, Justin, Tim, Bailey, Tom, Thorton for all the work done today at the course. I hope some people like what we did I would say I hope everybody likes what we did but that's reaching out there a bit. Again thanks for all the dirty hard work from you guys, its people like today that make the courses for tomorrow.

[Parks]

Only semi on topic, I'm mostly posting this because this DVD looks sweet.

This course has some tight holes: http://www.pdga.com/videos/clash-vi-promo-blue-ribbon-pines

Hole #5 has been thoroughly cleaned up (thanks Eric, Troy, and anyone else who did that!) and is nowhere near as tight or as long as some of the stuff at BRP.

Highbridge is still a beginner's course.

[Wobbly Bob]

Filtering people to the correct location for their skill level is logical, no? People should play where they can enjoy playing. If they enjoy a challenge, that's great, if not, another course may be better suited to their skill.

There's a Men's rec league for hockey in Spokane. I joined the B league because that's my skill level. I could join the A league if I wanted to challenge myself and join the C league if I wanted easy mode.

I didn't join the A league and then say they should make the goal bigger because I can't score.

Well said, Lyle and it makes sense.

[Sean Johnson]

as far as i know central premix has issues with that idea. another great plot is the land across from scraps. its owned by the washington state department of transportation. they be more willing to let it be used. probably easier to deal with than the parks department as well.

I thought that the land upriver of Sullivan was owned by the Cowles family (along with most of the land along the whole Spokane river)?

[General Scales]

I believe you are right about the land but Central Pre Mix has a drop station right there, along with no parking and the access to that side being on the road to Central Premix, they believe it'd be a problem. Won't matter if we can get Sullivan Park and the land by Scraps. Then we could have a family and pro level course within 2 miles of each other. That'd be sweet.

[Sean Johnson]

So the wood chips smell great! They should help keep the mud down around the baskets too. I wanted to thank everyone who contributed to the improvements and to the new pin placements. While I don't love every hole, I love the fact that we have new holes to shoot at. As for the challenging holes, I try and look at them for what they are: holes that will push me to become better. Speaking of challenging...I was told by a few members that hole 10 is officially a par 4? Per PDGA guidelines, it more than qualifies to be one. I've also had people laugh at me for suggesting that any hole be a par 4. (even though just about every NT, Worlds, and Nationals has them)

[Eric whippet Brown]

I have never heard of hole ten being offically a par 4 yet. Maybe at the club meeting that can be brought up? It would be like farragut they have par 4's for Ams and 3's for the Pro's from the same tee. I know that us Pro's wouldn't play it a par 4 even though that's not a bad number on that hole. Its a risky 2 if your lucky enough to get close and in the open, I can usually get the 3 on it.

[Sean Johnson]

I have never heard of hole ten being offically a par 4 yet. Maybe at the club meeting that can be brought up? It would be like farragut they have par 4's for Ams and 3's for the Pro's from the same tee. I know that us Pro's wouldn't play it a par 4 even though that's not a bad number on that hole. Its a risky 2 if your lucky enough to get close and in the open, I can usually get the 3 on it.


http://www.pdga.com/files/documents/ParGuidelines.pdf

Yeah, I was looking at a chart on the PDGA website, and it certainlly wouldn't be par 4 for gold level players. However, I do think that making this a par 4 for "blue" and under players would go a long way in helping less advanced players feel like the course isn't stacked against them. Hole 3 is a little iffy as a blue par 4, but for white and red, definitely. Same with 14 and with several holes at Downriver (current layout).
I know that there has been some...frustration with the new layout. I really feel that if we were to go by these PDGA guidelines, it could work like a built-in handicap system and everyone would feel like they have more of an equal footing. For what it's worth, alternate teepads sound like a great idea too.

[Parks]

Par is what you make of it. If a hole feels like a par 5 to you, then its a par 5. It doesn't change what's on the scorecard.

To me, Hole 11 at Downriver and Hole 14 at High Bridge feel like par 4s because I've never dueced them. If I get a 3 on either one I am happy and feel like I played the hole well; if I have a drop in 3 then I played them really well.

For some people, those holes are par 5. For people with huge drives, they're par 3.

However, changing "official" par is only to make scorekeeping easier. It doesn't make sense to change the official par on any hole until there are at least five or six par 4 or 5 holes on a course. Until then, it just becomes really confusing when someone says they shot a two down or four up.

Of course, just listing everything as Pro par 3 and then having Am par 4 or 5 listed for a lot of holes (similar to Farragut) could help solve a lot of people's frustrations, and be a lot cheaper than alternate teepads. Eric is doing the signs (I think?) so he would be the one to talk to about that.

[Wobbly Bob]

Of course, just listing everything as Pro par 3 and then having Am par 4 or 5 listed for a lot of holes (similar to Farragut) could help solve a lot of people's frustrations, and be a lot cheaper than alternate teepads.

Lyle, Am par would be easy to figure out if we could get casual players to turn in scorecards. Pdga has a worksheet for exactly this purpose.

[Parks]

Lyle, Am par would be easy to figure out if we could get casual players to turn in scorecards. Pdga has a worksheet for exactly this purpose.

I know. I've read your posts :D

I'm just saying there doesn't need to be anything official listed for people to use whatever Par fits their skill level.

[Sean Johnson]

Par is what you make of it. If a hole feels like a par 5 to you, then its a par 5. It doesn't change what's on the scorecard.

To me, Hole 11 at Downriver and Hole 14 at High Bridge feel like par 4s because I've never dueced them. If I get a 3 on either one I am happy and feel like I played the hole well; if I have a drop in 3 then I played them really well.

For some people, those holes are par 5. For people with huge drives, they're par 3.

However, changing "official" par is only to make scorekeeping easier. It doesn't make sense to change the official par on any hole until there are at least five or six par 4 or 5 holes on a course. Until then, it just becomes really confusing when someone says they shot a two down or four up.

Of course, just listing everything as Pro par 3 and then having Am par 4 or 5 listed for a lot of holes (similar to Farragut) could help solve a lot of people's frustrations, and be a lot cheaper than alternate teepads. Eric is doing the signs (I think?) so he would be the one to talk to about that.

I'm mostly thinking of casual play here. Most everyone thinks of their score as +1, -3, etc, and having different pars would impact this type of score keeping. Of course, a 57 is always a 57, but if there are 3 par 4s, then a 57 would be shooting even. However, if SDGA members aren't willing to embrace this, I don't think that there will be much effect given the fact that people look to you guys for leadership. It would have to be almost universally used. For me, it makes no difference, but it was not that long ago that I was taking a bogey every time I played 3 and it did wear on me for a while. That said, the first time I shot par on 3 or 14 felt like a birdie on any other hole.

[Eric whippet Brown]

Bring your ideas to the meeting on how the club can "embrace" a change to help the people look for our leadership? I don't really understand what your talking about? You mentioned casual play and par 57? If its a casual round and you want to play par 57 then go ahead. Again bring your ideas to me and we'll see what we can do to embrace the change your talking about.

[Sean Johnson]

Bring your ideas to the meeting on how the club can "embrace" a change to help the people look for our leadership? I don't really understand what your talking about? You mentioned casual play and par 57? If its a casual round and you want to play par 57 then go ahead. Again bring your ideas to me and we'll see what we can do to embrace the change your talking about.

I've got class, so I wont be able to get to the meeting. This is just an idea that I got from someone online about how to make new players more comfortable playing tougher courses.

[Eric whippet Brown]

I already had a plan to just add the number 4 to harder holes for the ams to make them less discouraged. I started playing downriver 9 years ago and par was 63 I didn't quit or complain or cry about how hard it was, I kept playing it, and soon par wasn't that bad. I just don't understand why the alts make all the ams think were driving them away from the course, there alternate pin locations, not staying there forever!!!! In time players get better, at least some. So if we come up with any good ideas that will make the ams happier and if we need to make new tee locations, I would love to see more people at my work parties, so far it has been 5-7 of us and obviously were not doing a good enough job. It takes a lot of hard work on the course to design and install stuff, a lot harder than typing out your concerns on this forum. So I suggest anyone willing to complain about stuff here to bring it to the meeting and then bring your self to a work party so we can fix the course to better suit you. I'm sorry but its easy to type out what you want to see done, but I know everyone in my work party and none of them are on this forum complaining, there the ones helping me make the course better/worse, and I appreciate the"work" we do even if some don't.

[Sean Johnson]

I hope that there hasn't been a misunderstanding about what I was trying to say. Nothing that I posted was intended to criticize you or the SDGA. Personally, I really like the changes and I love the rush of action that I'm seeing from you and the other members. While I haven't been playing for long, Highbridge is the best I've ever seen it and I know that I'm not the only one who thinks so. Just the variety that alts give us makes our few courses much deeper and more interesting.

When I said that people look to the SDGA for leadership, I want to clairify what I meant. If members play everything as a par 3, then I think that non-members and new players will follow suit. At that point, I'd say save the ink on the signs and the confusion that comes with having different pars. This is all I meant by that, so if I came off sounding rude, I apologize. Also, I would love to join a work crew with you, so long as it doesn't land on a Monday or Wednesday.

[Eric whippet Brown]

I'll try to have work parties on the weekends but with tournament season coming up, its hard to get out and work. I hope with the meeting coming up we can figure out what needs to be done.

[Parks]

Sean, I don't think anyone said anything rude or out of line, its just that Eric really likes saying the same thing six times in one thread :D

He also just really likes actions over words, but I think words are good, too. Nothing wrong with people voicing what they think, as long as they're being civil about it (I forget that last part some times...).

[General Scales]

Being an am myself I really don't see a need to make any of the holes at Highbridge a par 4. They aren't long or incredibly wooded. Maybe the only one that would warrant it in the alt would be 10 and thats just because the lines to the basket are so difficult to make clean that most people, even after throwing a great drive to even with the basket, still need two to get at the basket.

With all that said, I threw par on the alts. Felt great. As for the rest of the round, I ended up at one over. Thats what I get for inconsistent putts from 20-30 feet.

[Gordy #21004]

Please see my post under Four Mound: open dates at Four MOund. thanks, Gordy.:seeya: