Are all flat top Bosses first runs?

[blang11]

Most people out there who throw the Boss know that there are those with flat tops and then some with more domey tops. I can't say as a rule that ALL Feldberg stamped discs have the more domey flight plate but it's been my experience that at least MOST of them do. Obviously, the domed ones are more overstable, which I prefer.

Anyway, here's my question: Are all the flat tops first runs, or did Innova make a first run and then continue making more flat tops after that? I have two tournament stamped champ Bosses that have flat tops (Clash on the Columbia, and Rose City Open).

Thanks in advance to the great internet hivemind.

[whslaxplayer11]

i have 2 dave f champ bosses in good condition, one flat top and one domey and i can say that my flat top one is way way more stable than the domey one.

[DMajor]

My flat top discs are more stable than my domey as well. The most stable bosses I have thrown are the orange champion bosses. I haven't thrown many star so I can't speak on those

[Toby Puttzinski]

Do you mean first 'production' run?

[captain jack]

I gotta agree with the last couple of posts.

Flatter is MORE stable, less glide.
Domey is LESS stable with more glide.
I think the Star plastic runs are the flattest current production models.
My Feldberg has more dome than my Starlight.

[snap7times]

I gotta agree with the last couple of posts.

Flatter is MORE stable, less glide.
Domey is LESS stable with more glide.
I think the Star plastic runs are the flattest current production models.
My Feldberg has more dome than my Starlight.

really? i thought it was the other way around?

[blang11]

really? i thought it was the other way around?

Wow, I'm surprised at these responses. You all are the best judges of what your discs do in the air. But my experience is that domey= overstable and more glide with the Bosses. Well, a good Boss is a wonderful thing, but I guess that's Innova for you. I think the Boss has been one of their most inconsistent molds.

On a side note, I agree about the Star Bosses being flat-topped. Mine started out crazy overstable though. I've since beat it in over a period of about 9 months, and it is a bomber (gotta throw with hyzer though).

[blang11]

Do you mean first 'production' run?

Yes, that's what I meant. I have a feeling that it probably isn't true. There have probably been multiple and continuing runs of Bosses with slight variations in flight, including the dome vs. flat top issue.

[ScottW]

Interesting topic. I overheard Nate Sexton talking about his "Super Bosses" at the Spokane City Cup last fall during the Final 10. Normally I wouldn't talk to one of the players during play but I was too curious so I asked him about the Super Boss. He said that Innova had some very domey STAR Bosses. He said they are only made in the 165-169 range but he said they were way more overstable then even a max weight Xcal. Thought that was interesting. I haven't thrown a Boss in any plastic much (yet) so don't know how a STAR compares to a Champ or Pro but just thought I'd share my 2 cents. There is a noticeable difference in domeyness that I have seen between the "super Boss" and other STAR Bosses.

[Bruce]

At some point towards the beginning of this last summer, Innova did a run of red star bosses, they were almost see through and they are super flat. These are by far the most overstable boss I've ever touched. Though from my general experience with champ bosses flat is flippy, domey is stable to overstable.

[blang11]

Interesting topic. I overheard Nate Sexton talking about his "Super Bosses" at the Spokane City Cup last fall during the Final 10. Normally I wouldn't talk to one of the players during play but I was too curious so I asked him about the Super Boss. He said that Innova had some very domey STAR Bosses. He said they are only made in the 165-169 range but he said they were way more overstable then even a max weight Xcal. Thought that was interesting. I haven't thrown a Boss in any plastic much (yet) so don't know how a STAR compares to a Champ or Pro but just thought I'd share my 2 cents. There is a noticeable difference in domeyness that I have seen between the "super Boss" and other STAR Bosses.

I've never heard that term "Super Boss" (not sure if that's just what Nate is calling it), but I have heard talk of these specific molds being special. I especially took note of someone saying these light ones were the most overstable Bosses around. I thought that was weird at the time, but if what Nate was saying is true then it makes sense. I believe these bosses also have a star plastic blend that is more translucent than most, basically opaque when held to the light. I'd love to get my hands on one!

[snap7times]

Yeah, I have 4 bosses,
champ 173 boss - break this in and just crazy cool to throw..
star 167 boss - OMFG this thing is the craziest overstable disc i have ever touched...
star 173 boss - took a while to break in but flies awesome for me
pro 175 boss - awesome out of the box - flies like the 173 beat boss

for me, flat tops have been more overstable and domey less stable... but really, its still all about knowing your discs...

[captain jack]

I've never heard that term "Super Boss" (not sure if that's just what Nate is calling it), but I have heard talk of these specific molds being special. I especially took note of someone saying these light ones were the most overstable Bosses around. I thought that was weird at the time, but if what Nate was saying is true then it makes sense. I believe these bosses also have a star plastic blend that is more translucent than most, basically opaque when held to the light. I'd love to get my hands on one!

:sighs:

We keep going over this. Over and over and over.
The lightest Star Boss's, between 165 and 170 grams are MORE stable than the heavier weights. Yes, thats right, MORE, not less stable.
This goes against everything we know about HSS and it only applies to the Boss right now.
Well, that and some of the latest runs of Star Destroyers, which also have have been stabilized in lighter weights recently.
Dunipace used a special technique to stablize them.
These are called Star Light. Thats why I referred to the disc that way in my previous post.
Its a high speed stable disc thats a little lighter, giving it superior distance to its heavier brothers, thats why he calls it a " Super Boss".

Its also the longest disc I throw.

Here is the quote from Dave at Innova, posted on the PDGA forum.
Originally Posted by DUNIPACE
As for the Star Bosses: they are the exception to the general rule about Champion being more stable than Star in lighter weights. Lighter weight Star Bosses are made with a different process than the heavy weights. This process does add more stability. It affects weights from 165g (usually x parts) to 171g. 172g to 175 should not be affected and therefore should be slightly less stable in Star. At some point, we will use this process to get Star Destroyers and Star Wraiths down in weight too. We believe we can get Star Destroyers down to 165gs successfully and Star Wraiths down to 162gs.

If you pick up any other disc in Star plastic around the same weight and hold it up to light with a Boss next to it, you will instantly see the difference in the translucency of the flight plate, the Boss is almost like Champ plastic.

[TreeLove]

A boss more overstable than an X-Caliber? Why even bother naming the discs models at all? Come on, Innova! Get it together!

[Tim]

Over on DGR, a guy has made an interesting observation. The domey vs. flat thing may not be the indicator of stability in a mold, rather it's a side effect of the way the disc changes shape when it cools. It seems that what IS the indicator is the "parting line" of the mold, i.e. where the top part of the mold and bottom part meet. When some discs cool, they shrink in an anomalous way, and the parting line moves upward and results in a much more stable disc. Some molds are more prone than others, and it looks like the Boss may be one of them. I tried this experiment with my freaky stable Viking, comparing it to a normal Viking, and it matched the parting line hypothesis perfectly.

Check out the thread here: http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15165&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[DMajor]

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15165&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I've never been on that site before. That's a good one

[Cold Steel]

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15165&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I've never been on that site before. That's a good one

Stay away from the technique/instructional stuff. You'll lose a week reading it, and you'll never throw another disc without analyzing yourself to tears.

[TreeLove]

Just got my Champion-XG Bosses in today! Wow, are they flat, concave, even! Plastic not as flexible as the "taco" in the photo https://www.discgolfvalues.com/store/images/uploads/XGBoss400.jpgsuggested, I won't be trying that with my discs. But definitely feel "grippy, not gummy". No DG for me this weekend, so we'll have to wait to see wait they fly like.....

[Ol' Bob]

As an experiment, I went outside today and tossed a drink-coaster-quality music CD. It was a simple flat disc with no describable difference between sides except for the printing on one side. I tossed it, either side up, and with no dome or leading/lifting winglike edge, it was overstable. Shiny or dull side up, it turned hard left (throwing RHBH). It apparently takes some lift to go straight or turn right. One would think that dome would add to lift. How much lift is developed at the edge or over the flight plate would add up the the differences between the various molds, eh?

[captain jack]

As an experiment, I went outside today and tossed a drink-coaster-quality music CD. It was a simple flat disc with no describable difference between sides except for the printing on one side. I tossed it, either side up, and with no dome or leading/lifting winglike edge, it was overstable. Shiny or dull side up, it turned hard left (throwing RHBH). It apparently takes some lift to go straight or turn right. One would think that dome would add to lift. How much lift is developed at the edge or over the flight plate would add up the the differences between the various molds, eh?


Ok, I'm not one of those fancy scientists with the degrees and the white coats, but I was thinking along these same lines of thought.

A domey flight plate would seem to me to create a larger profile into the air as it flies. The greater difference in volume created by the dome on the underside of the disc would translate into a larger pressure difference.

The result of a greater pressure difference, between the top and the bottom, as we all know from wing theory, means more lift, it aint rocket science.
More lift to me would mean greater instability, or, in other words, easier to turn over, or LESS stable.

Flat top discs, with less volume on the underside, tend to have less lift, and more equal pressures between top and bottom means more stability, in other words, a flat top wants to come down first, and the fastest way down is a hard turn, or going verticle.

Thats how I see it, and this is how my discs seem to all behave, I buy flat tops if I want hyzer discs, I buy domes for flippy, floaty stuff.

[killa]

I basically agree with the last 2 analyses, but the only piece of evidence I have to offer may not be one you guys will welcome with open arms -- the Epic by Aerobie.

This disc obviously has a unique "personality (http://www.aerobie.com/Products/Epic.htm)", if you will, but the feature I feel may be relevent is that the manufacturer indicates how to tune it (http://www.aerobie.com/Products/Details/EpicTuningArticle.htm) for a desired stability: flex the edges up for more stability, and down for less. Practical application verifies the theory easily and undeniably. So at least for this disc, all other factors held constant, domey = less stable, and flat/concave = more stable.

And say what you will about the company and their golf discs, but these guys are onto something (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerobie#World_Records).

Also, great food for thought with that DGR link, Tim.

[REDFIVE]

Why the stabilities are different I don't know, but I do like my slower fairway drivers to be flat and my faster distance drivers to be domey.
I like my plastic dense and stiff, which seams to be a bit more stable. Usually flat for teebirds and firebirds but domey for destroyers and wraiths. The boss is just weird because it is so big and the many plastic combinations used to make it either lighter or heavier or grippier, or bossier are new to the market so they don't fit into the guidelines set by other discs. I do know that however they may fly compared to the next one can be learned with one short field session and no matter how stable or overstable the disc is it will still be crazy fast.

[Ol' Bob]

Where the rubber meets the road, so to speak, is the leading edge. I've seen some pretty flippy flat-tops. The larger share of the lift must be being generated in the first inch. Overall lift has to be a balance of combined lifts coming from both edge and flight plate.

Remember the old Aerobie Rings? They had essentially two wings, a leading and a trailing, and no flight plate at all. The leading wing roiled the air that the trailing wing passed through. This meant the leading wing got more lift than the trailing wing. To keep them all from flipping right, they put that little spoiler ridge along the outer edge. This killed enough of the lift on the leading wing to equalize its lift with the trailing wing. People were throwing them things a quarter mile, way back then. Of course the reason people quit buying them is that 99% of all Aerobie Rings thrown into a tree, stay in the tree.

[Ol' Bob]

So obviously it wouldn't meet PDGA specs, but what would happen if that design were used on a disc? Anyone ever cut the center out of a driver just to see?

I'm sure you'd see Flip City. Almost all the lift would be at the front.

Those Aerobie Rings were an eighth inch thick, at most. They were about ten inches in diameter and the ring was maybe an inch and a half wide with a steel armature or core. Very sharp leading and trailing edges, for nearly no drag. I wonder how far the big arms of today are slinging them?

[papatart]

Leading edge baby, that's where a lot of it starts. As discs get beat in and the leading edge get beat downward the disc becomes more understable. Generally, when a disc of a certain mold is domey as opposed to a flat head disc of the same mold, the leading edge tends to be pointed down more and thereby less overstable. Flat plate brings the leading edge up and gives more overstable.

True, a generalization, but one that molders generally agree with on a genreal basis about general discs in general, generally speaking.

later,
Scott Papa

[Ol' Bob]

Personally, I believe the change that happens in a disc to make it less stable with use is due mostly to added turbulence over the top of the leading edge created by scratching and scarring. Most of the air's relative speed over the disc's surface is generated by the spin, and the fastest relative motion is over the top of the leading edge, with a relative speed advantage to the forward spinning side (i.e., left front for RHBH). As the disc becomes less smooth, the boundary layer turbulence increases and thickens, creating a higher virtual wing profile that the passing air must rise over. This lengthened path for the passing air lowers the pressure and adds lift at that point.

I can see varied shrinkage of the flight plate, cooling from the mold, being an initial factor in stability by pulling, or not pulling, the edge up, but I don't see edges being bent down significantly from use. I see scratching and scarring, not bending.

On edit: I also believe that beat-in discs often fly better because the added boundary layer turbulence acts as a lubricant and decreases overall drag of the disc.