bunker rule

[REDFIVE]

Could I please have this rule explained to me? Thanks.

[DoubleDees]

i believe if it is designated a bunker shot. you retee with no OB penalty until reaching the appropiated landing area. So instead of shooting 3 off the pad your shooting 2 after throwing into a "bunker" ob area

[killa]

If you're talking about the way the infamous Hole 17 is played at USDGC, bunker is actually spelled "buncr"... which I assume is partly to distinguish it from ball golf bunkers (no penalty for hitting into the sand in ball golf).

The way DoubleDees describes it is how the Buncrs work at USDGC, but that's only one option. According to Chuck Kennedy (via dgcoursereview (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-900.html)), who is credited with inventing the bunker concept:


"A buncr is a marked area where a player may not take a stance. The designer may define the player's lie to be marked either on the line of play away from the basket, a drop zone or a rethrow from the previous lie. No additional penalty throw is applied, unlike OB. The only 'penalty' is some distance lost."


If you're mostly interested in how the rethrow Buncrs worked at the '09 USDGC, check out the caddy book (http://usdgc.com/caddybook09/caddy_book_download.pdf), page 12, rule 2.

[REDFIVE]

I had heard that if you land in a bunker area you throw from there with a stroke added. Didn't think it was correct I a I asked. Thanks.

[ChUcK]

I'd like to experience this rule in action. It seems that it would make for more interesting golf to watch, because without the penalty stroke it becomes more appealing to take a run at a dangerous green instead of laying up. Perhaps some of the local weeklies should start experimenting with this on our local courses. For instance, the monster Laurel on Seatac #2 might serve well as a buncr, but there would need to be some way to mark the boundaries, plus it might require a spotter during PDGA events

[cefire]

I'd like to experience this rule in action. It seems that it would make for more interesting golf to watch, because without the penalty stroke it becomes more appealing to take a run at a dangerous green instead of laying up. Perhaps some of the local weeklies should start experimenting with this on our local courses. For instance, the monster Laurel on Seatac #2 might serve well as a buncr, but there would need to be some way to mark the boundaries, plus it might require a spotter during PDGA events

I'm looking at implementing a bunc'r area on one of the holes at Pretzelbowl this year, but I'm wondering if it might be too confusing, on a temp course at least.

[runnaman]

I'm thinking about having a buncr or two at the Wild Wolf Fundraiser Tournament in March.

[REDFIVE]

There might be one or two at sumner meadows this year.

[olydiscgolf]

I'm looking at implementing a bunc'r area on one of the holes at Pretzelbowl this year, but I'm wondering if it might be too confusing, on a temp course at least.

As long as its clearly stated on maps and clearly marked it shouldn't be a problem. String lines and ground paint go along way.

[snap7times]

Ground paint is easier on Tournament Committee's since there is no "clean-up" needed.
What is the objective of the Buncr/bunker in Disc Golf? Relief from an area that has hard "throw from/stance" areas without major penalties but still tough enough for golfer to reach green? or?
I understand the rule and the definition, but what was the objective/goal behind the idea?

Example; Milo West hole 10 - the first tree area in the middle can be a bish, buncr it, increase speed of play, players get to really throw somehting else around the tree than try to toss weaklings through? Or is that a bad example?

[papatart]

Ground paint is easier on Tournament Committee's since there is no "clean-up" needed.
What is the objective of the Buncr/bunker in Disc Golf?... I understand the rule and the definition, but what was the objective/goal behind the idea?



I have had the opportunity to play many buncr shots both from Chuck K and others. The only purpose I have only seen the buncr to be used is to make a hole more difficult without adding penalty strokes.

I believe this was the first year that they have used the buncr theory at USDGC #17 as before it was always rethrow and stroke if you missed the island green. Chuck used the buncr theory at Worlds in Wisconsin and the placement of buncrs were in front of baskets where if you landed in one of them you would have to move back to the point your disc crossed the line entering the buncr to throw. Making instead a putt of forty or fifty feet instead of the fifteen footer that you had from where your disc had landed.

Buncrs were also heavily featured at the Player's Cup in Florida on Hole One and Hole Sixteen to try and make fairways that were actually ball golf fairways into more technical distance shots. With these buncrs you would proceed to a drop zone and throw from there with no penalty stroke but it always cost you distance. These didn't work perfectly as it is difficult to know how far/accurate the top dogs can throw until they are actually there and doing it. At that point it was realized that the only people being hampered by some of the buncrs were the lower group of throwers and it just heightened the division between the power merchants and the less able.

Do I think these are good things? Yeah, I think they may just have a place for us in the sport. I think, however, that I might make one change on them. I would make sure they were fairway bunkers on par 4 or 5 holes where the second shot is still a shot that you would want to have a clean run-up for the power needed (like taking a 700 to 800 foot for example). Place a buncr midway down the fairway that takes up the left hand side of the fairway (safe landing area for RH hyzer off the tee) from about the 350 foot mark to the 400/425 foot mark. Then, if a player should land in it they would not go anywhere else to throw, but would have to make their next throw from their lie in a standing position with no run up. It would be more akin to placing huge amounts of loose sand around the course (which would be the coolest thing ever!) to make stance difficulties play into your game. Then the thrower on the drive is either forced to clear the hazard, land on the right side of the fairway which is either a more difficult shot or close to OB lets's say or land short and make the approach longer.

The best thing of ideas like this is that it makes courses that play long more interesting on every shot. When playing huge courses that are layed out so that you just throw as far as possible with wreckless abandon off the tee and then the second shot is all that matters it gets old after a while. They may as well have just moved the tee up 350 feet and made it a quality par 3 hole. The use of buncrs make it possible to make more shots critical shots in a round of golf.

That's what I think and I hope I get to see/design holes like this in the future as I know it would make the game more difiicult/exciting!

Later.
Scott Papa

[Chuck Kennedy]

The members of the Disc Golf Course Designers group (now 125) considered the "stand and deliver" buncrs as one option but felt uncomfortable with that approach as not being in the spirit of golf. While "stand and deliver" would be an interesting part of the game, the way that we would prefer it be achieved is by landing in areas or hazards where stand and deliver is the player's best choice for making an accurate throw but not a required stance, the common example being a throw from woodsy schule.

The buncrs at the Player's Cup were not done as the fairway buncr concept was originally designed. I haven't had the chance to do them as intended or seen it done yet. I would see fairway buncrs being used on Par 4s and 5s as Papa mentioned, especially on relatively open holes. The buncr would be in the 300-375 range of the fairway on the left or right. If the player lands in the buncr, they go to a drop zone (no penalty) that is maybe 20-30 feet behind a nearby tree. The idea is that the player would have a little longer next throw and have to bend it left or right which might not be required on several of the open holes on the course.

[TreeLove]

Ground paint is easier on Tournament Committee's since there is no "clean-up" needed.

Ball golf course operators just love paint on their grass, too!

[The Ombudsman]

I think the 'buncr' idea is asinine. I am not a proponent of contriving imaginary boundaries in order to add difficulty to a hole.
What ever happened to "Play it as it lies"?

[REDFIVE]

Play it as it lies is just too easy. The more challenging the better. The more variation you can have on a course the better. Throw accurately and the buncr isn't an issue.

[Chuck Kennedy]

I think the 'buncr' idea is asinine. I am not a proponent of contriving imaginary boundaries in order to add difficulty to a hole.

The boundaries are no more imaginary than OB areas.

[REDFIVE]

imaginary

So if everything we experience is filtered through a mind that is not fully understood or explainable can't all things be considered "imaginary"? :chinscratch:

[papatart]

The members of the Disc Golf Course Designers group (now 125) considered the "stand and deliver" buncrs as one option but felt uncomfortable with that approach as not being in the spirit of golf. While "stand and deliver" would be an interesting part of the game, the way that we would prefer it be achieved is by landing in areas or hazards where stand and deliver is the player's best choice for making an accurate throw but not a required stance, the common example being a throw from woodsy schule.



Chuck, I agree that the best way to move a player's decision toward a specific type of shot (i.e standing) is to use natural elements. That is why I mentioned that using the buncr as I was describing was in lieu of placing huge amounts of sand or pea gravel in strategic places around the course. If you have an established course with excess funds in it's account then I would love nothing better than to see "true" hazards created.

However, this is generally not the case and especially not so in tourney situations with temp courses. That was the only reason that I thought the standing concept would be used. This would then allow the player to "play it where it lies" but play it as if it was stuck in the sand on the beach where run ups are fruitless.

And you, my friend, are killing me with this not being in the "spirit of golf". Don't make me go back to the basket stuck in the tree that people had to use a stick to get their disc back.......don't make me!!!!!

Love ya' Chuck!

Later,
Scott Papa

[LJ Jubner]

I have always wondered how we could make courses more difficult by using hazards. Throwing over something is a good idea. Like the Tac there are several hole that have what I would call fairway hazards. #12 for sure. You have the little schule (right side) just short of the first trail, the pecker poles on the left just after the trail, The wall about halfway down on the right (past the cedar). another one 50 ft farther up the right side and the infamous Holly bush 15 feet short of the pin.

[papatart]

I have always wondered how we could make courses more difficult by using hazards. Throwing over something is a good idea. Like the Tac there are several hole that have what I would call fairway hazards. #12 for sure. You have the little schule (right side) just short of the first trail, the pecker poles on the left just after the trail, The wall about halfway down on the right (past the cedar). another one 50 ft farther up the right side and the infamous Holly bush 15 feet short of the pin.

Without a doubt the best thing to use is natural elements and Hole 12 at Seatac is a great example of just that. The good thing is that (a) Seatac doesn't get played as much as other courses and (b) most of those obstacles are fairly staunch. In most parks, the original plan to have this bush or that stand of little trees as obstacles lasts for only a short time. A course I used to play in Joliet was originally known as "bush park" but now is nothing but grass and widely spaced huge oak trees. Very beautiful but not very technically demanding any longer.

The idea of buncrs is more to help those course that do not have the natural obstacles like Seatac. There, they would just take away from the design of the true course.

Later,
Papa

[The Ombudsman]

Even at Juel Park buncrs would be ridiculous

[REDFIVE]

I think that when a players skill level reaches a certain point they want more challenge. I have always liked to play holes that could be considered "hard" holes. The harder the course or hole the better you are going to get.
My home course is riverside in washington. The main courses are not very technically demanding. If I shoot less than 10 to 12 under on the red or blue courses I am unsatisfied. If I remember correctly, scott, didn't you shoot something silly like a16 on red a couple few years ago in tourney play? Too easy!
Having rounds full of straight forward threes or easy twos gives me false confidance when I go play a course that demands more of me. I like to play all bushes as ob, or take lines that aren't really the best choice for the shot. Changing things up and making it a bit more difficult keeps me sharp. Anybody looking to get better should look for these buncr type challenges and feed on them to get better.
Bring on the buncrs, OB strings, random children jumping from bushes swinging sticks making noises and telling you how you are the sith and they are skywalker, then repeating, "hey dad, hey dad, hey dad" when you are trying to putt. Is that last one just me or do most courses have this feature.

Seek out challenges and you will be rewarded.

[Chuck Kennedy]

And you, my friend, are killing me with this not being in the "spirit of golf". Don't make me go back to the basket stuck in the tree that people had to use a stick to get their disc back.......don't make me!!!!!
No problem with that pin placement which had 360 degree access with a skillful not funky putt being required sometimes. In ball golf, they have some kidney shaped greens where in certain areas you can't putt at the pin but have to chip over the apron to the part of the green with the pin. That's more challenging than what that tree basket at Worlds presented.

[olydiscgolf]

No problem with that pin placement which had 360 degree access with a skillful not funky putt being required sometimes. In ball golf, they have some kidney shaped greens where in certain areas you can't putt at the pin but have to chip over the apron to the part of the green with the pin. That's more challenging than what that tree basket at Worlds presented.

Until disc golf has the funds to "create" a course, not just "instal" a course, I don't think there is anyway around using imaginary lines for obstacles. That being said, it doesn't mean that I like it. I think string lines in disc golf should be used at an absolute minimum, and mandos for safety ONLY. If a hole needs to be more difficult, change the hole or like Papa said, add a real feature. I think scotchbroom goes a long way for natural obstacles (Steilly SE #14-15)

When was the last time you seen a string line on a ball golf course?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Actually, some of us in the course design group are hoping to move toward the ball golf approach where players are required to carry a tape measure or string to make OB calls when the ball is near a stake line. I've heard the ball golfers carry a packet of dental floss to make those calls.

We did this at Highbridge for the 2007 Pro Worlds. Every player got a 10m tape in their player packs. Most OB including water hazards either had white stakes or white markers flush to the ground (especially by roads) placed about 20-25 feet apart. If a close call needed to be made, then you bring out the tape and run it between the markers and make the call. This would eliminate a lot of paint and string if OB (or buncrs) were marked this way. We've talked about having tape measures be part of the PDGA member packet whenever they are ready to move this direction. The tape measure can double as a mini marker since it's the proper size.

[LJ Jubner]

Actually Scott your Bush Course phenomenon is happening at SeaTac too. With the overplay at Lakewood the Tac is getting more and more new or less experienced players. Who take matters into their own hands to make the course easier (as it turns out) for themselves only.

[olydiscgolf]

Actually Scott your Bush Course phenomenon is happening at SeaTac too. With the overplay at Lakewood the Tac is getting more and more new or less experienced players. Who take matters into their own hands to make the course easier (as it turns out) for themselves only.

I noticed that the last time I was out there, #10 was cleared out quite a bit.

[LJ Jubner]

10 is not so bad the stuff done on 9 short and right of the trail it was much more of a tunnel shot then it is now.. down the center all the way to the basket. The butchery on 17 continues on the right side (past the jub shrub and Munoz bush) 18 Basket is another example. I personally have 15 Arbour Society Native trees ready to go into the ground but I am afraid they will just get chopped down.


Back to topic That's the best way to make a hazard plant stuff.

6 about 50 ft in front of the tee plant a short hedge say 36" high or less across the fairway. Does it effect your shot? No! but it does say don't throw it low.

15 Plant a 5 ft tall hedge that runs parallel to the fairway from tee to about 50 ft (shrink fairway to maybe 20 ft visually there). Again does it change the shot? No! but it does get in your head

[Uhlman]

I think that when a players skill level reaches a certain point they want more challenge...
Bring on the buncrs, OB strings, random children jumping from bushes swinging sticks making noises and telling you how you are the sith and they are skywalker, then repeating, "hey dad, hey dad, hey dad" when you are trying to putt. Is that last one just me or do most courses have this feature.

Seek out challenges and you will be rewarded.

I know the feeling... Just yesterday I played a round in 15to 20mph wind while pushing a double stroller with a 2&3 year old running around.