Disc Golf Community, watcha think?

[KG_MCDGC]

As some may know, Mason County Disc Golf recently signed a lease agreement with the City of Shelton. The attached map of the area included in the agreement shows a much larger area then we initially thought we were going to obtain, roughly 60 acres. Most of which is an established forest, but also includes a wide open area that runs beneath some BPA powerlines. There is very little variance in elevation throughout, but again, what we lack in elevation change we make up for in space and long wooded holes (10-15 years ago the City did selective cutting throughout the forest, leaving behind long slashes/corridors/fairways. The canopy grew in, and what's left is 300+ ft long alleys with little to no underbrush to clear, think NAD on steroids).

The amount of space and free range we have has lead us to a crossroads. Should we consider utilizing our positives to have a true-Blue (pun intended) Course? Meaning, creating a Course with several par 4s and atleast one par 5. It's easy for us to get amped on the idea and overlook the negatives of such an endeavor. We would like to know what the Disc Golf Community feels about this.

We have nothing set in stone, aside from creating the course with 2 tee boxes ("am" and "pro") per hole in mind. We have researched and feel like we understand PDGA Disc Golf Course standards, validations and SSA information. We simply want to create something that the peninsula (and maybe Western Washington) is currently lacking, a BIG destination Course.

Discuss...

[Jester]

I am a week armed old crusty and I think you should always think big! Par 4s and 5s are great!

[sillybizz]

If you can make par fours and five with ease (not cramped) then by all means do so! It's not like this state has too many gold level courses or something. I've never been a fan of the whole pro and am tee boxes thing but if you have the space and desire then all means do so. Please don't half ass the land you have there, take your time over there and make the course awesome. It sounds like a great course is in the works, here in WA it would be nice to have one.

[REDFIVE]

Y E S if you have 60 acres make it world class for sure. With that much space 2 ridiculous courses or a 27 hole course would be possible. An 18 hole(or 2 18s) par 60+ would be a nice addition to the area. Just make sure the holes are fair and not just throwing through 800ft of trees without a real defined fairway. Make it big make it right. Good luck and thank you!

[Adam Schneider]

If you're planning to put in pro and am teepads, then go ahead and make the pro pads as long and scary as you like.

[cefire]

If you can make par fours and five with ease (not cramped) then by all means do so!

As usual, I agree with everything Tom said. Par 4's and 5's are definitely preferred, but if it takes two "filler" holes to get there or it makes the course cramped, IMO its not worth it.

I think different pin locations (which create par 3's, 4's, 5's) are much preferred to different tees but both are good. If you leave a lot of space around each fairway and room for longer pins (par 4's, 5's), you'll open up options for years down the road to improve once you have the course up and going. Tyler park in Pennsylvania is a good model for what I'm thinking of.

Also, I'd much prefer a totally bad ass 18 hole course to a pretty good 27.

Awesome that you guys continue to get input on the course :yay:

[sillybizz]

As usual, I agree with everything Tom said. Par 4's and 5's are definitely preferred, but if it takes two "filler" holes to get there or it makes the course cramped, IMO its not worth it.

I think different pin locations (which create par 3's, 4's, 5's) are much preferred to different tees but both are good. If you leave a lot of space around each fairway and room for longer pins (par 4's, 5's), you'll open up options for years down the road to improve once you have the course up and going. Tyler park in Pennsylvania is a good model for what I'm thinking of.

Also, I'd much prefer a totally bad ass 18 hole course to a pretty good 27.

Awesome that you guys continue to get input on the course :yay:

Once again I agree with everything Andrew just said. :rockon:

[Adam Schneider]

I think different pin locations (which create par 3's, 4's, 5's) are much preferred to different tees but both are good.
I disagree completely. Different tees allow the player to decide, more or less, which course they're going to play that day. With different pin placements, you're subject to the whims of whomever has the keys. Long and short tees potentially make the course more fun for twice as many people on any given day.

[cefire]

But we're talking about a "blue" course, plenty of casual courses to go around. Multiple pins is my preference for a blue course but you have a good point if you want to please the casual golfers.

[Adam Schneider]

But we're talking about a "blue" course, plenty of casual courses to go around.
Even so, if you have the opportunity to basically create another casual course by adding an extra set of tees -- without the blue layout having to sacrifice a thing -- why not do it? Also, keep in mind that Mason County doesn't really have much in the way of courses, right now, casual or otherwise.

[KG_MCDGC]

First off, thanks for all the responses.

I failed to mention that through the process of Course design, we've made attempts to find Alt pin locales. And that one of the major factors in our pursuit of dual tee pads is that we offered the City a Course design that was also beginner friendly. The dual tee pads allow us to be able to offer a challenge for all user groups.

Least of all, we will not be forcing the issue. But the reason we're considering it is because there seems to be an appropriate amount of space and factors to warrant a "Blue" Course.

Like I said, we are very interested in creating something special. Your input only reinforces our desire to create a "must-play" Course. But most importantly, to do it right. Thank you...

[GettinBetter]

If you are putting in dual tee pads then a longer course would be awesome (pro pads). Also, you could make the shorter teepads a completely different shot, not just shorter.

[Tim]

I'm a fan of multiple tees myself, and if a course has the space to put them in, I totally support it. In designing the course, it's much easier to incorporate multiple tees in the outset, rather than trying to install them later when the course is established. Installing alt. pin placements down the road though, isn't too tough at all in the scheme of things.

I'm back in VA right now, and I played New Quarter (http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=791&mode=ci) a few days ago. The course started off with blue and white tees, most of the holes having only one pin placement. As of this year though, all the holes have at least two placements--many extending the hole by another 100' and changing the shape of the shot significantly (DGCR doesn't reflect the changes yet). The course was challenging before, but is downright tough now. I played from the short tees (white), and the course was at least as difficult as SeaTac. I can only imagine what the blue tees were like (wish I didn't have to imagine though--I'd like to spend a couple days playing there if I could).

Kevin, is there any chance of incorporating more than 2 sets of tees? Like say, reds, whites, and blues?

Also, just one other side note, I too am a fan of par 4s and 5s, so long as they're done right. Taking a tight, woodsy hole, making it super long, and calling it a par 4 is a cheap way out, IMO. Tight woodsy holes are awesome, but make them too long and the hole can easily go from challenging to frustrating (Rooster East #3 and some of the woodsy holes at Bryant for example). It's certainly possible to have woodsy par 4s, but just make sure there are reasonable fairways.

[olydiscgolf]

Hey Kevin, nice work!

You guys are in a unique position to "create" a golf course, not just installing tee pads and baskets, but "creating" a course from scratch. One of the main obstacles of designing is competing for use of the land, your not competing, its yours!

You already have most of the aspects to a great course in place; some wide open space, a lot of established forest, paths and roads, a little bit of water, and very little outside use. And quite possibly the MOST important one is a club that takes pride in hard work and has the tools to do it! Oh yea, did you mention that the club has access to an excavator!



Don't cut the players short, think big! Lets make this the Championship quality course, that we all need and want! Good courses make good players!

[Vector_2008]

Since you have so much land to use, go with short and long tees.
Long tees really need to be put into the design from the start. If you don't, you'll end up with crowded tees and baskets later or long walk outs that you'll need a map to navigate. Put the short tees in at a realistic Par 3. If they are to short people won't want to play them.

Also install tee signs for each tee. People always want to play the tee with the tee sign. They think it is the "real" tee.

Every course needs multiple pin placements. It changes to course slightly to keep the course fresh for the players. It also rotates the wear and tear around the basket to a new area.

[JMan]

Check out the DGA website for am distances, but by all means every 9 should include at least 2 par 4s and one par 5, golf, whether Disc or stick, should have 4s and 5s, otherwise it's just another birdie or die situation. Very little strategy there, go BIG.

[maynard]

Mulitple pin placements along with mulitple tee pads and by all means various pars. Very cool, keep us posted.

[TREX]

This is some great input guys. As Oly said we are in a unique position here and what we need is info from everyone. KG great idea coming here and asking for Idea's on the par 4 and 5 situation. Feedback of this caliber is hard to some by anywhere else. I'm sure our next meeting will be interesting =]

[DexterHawk]

Wow it sounds like you guys have everything right to me! I played a lot of world class courses this year, including the fabeled Winthrop Gold, Rennie Gold, Charlotte's web and a john houke desiged course in Canada. All of these courses with the exception of Winthrop gold had multiple teepads the John houke course had three on every hole. They also all had multiple par fours and fives. Higher par hole are the future! Having to execute an upshot from a differnt spot every round makes par fours much more challenging to play and more exciting. Sure they are tougher for new players, but pros play better than newbies on par three courses too.

Go for it!!! But be sure to bring some pros in to tweak your design so that all of the holes have playable lines and try to get at least one really good lefty to give you some suggestions.

[puaahunter]

...golf, whether Disc or stick, should have 4s and 5s, otherwise it's just another birdie or die situation...


this is a feeling i've been having lately, but haven't been able to articulate it.
thanks.



as someone who lives a stone's throw away (maybe i should have used a more strategic disc golf reference?) from this course, i'm super excited about it's possibilities.


like others here, a tightly wooded hole where you're better off throwing a hatchet than a disc sounds like no fun at all- even if it's called a "par 4".

with varying pars and multiple teepads on the course, permanent and clear signage becomes super important.

i'm all for "do it right the first time". go big or go home.


good times are coming just around the bend!

[Skookum]

Having gone though and read this thread again I would say I think we are on right track to making a legit par 60 course.

This weekend we will be doing the clean up required to see/play the fairways we have picked out and sometime in the not too distant future we will be calling on our community of local pros to come have a look and share their thoughts with us.

See work parties forum for details on that, or PM me if interested in give a professional opinion on design sometime in the near future.

[snap7times]

I want something like Idlewild, par 69-72, 2 tees on some holes, alt pins on most.. make it awesome! Islands!

[Skookum]

At this point we do have one Island hole. Thinking of ringing it with logs so your in or out.

[TYVEK]

At this point we do have one Island hole. Thinking of ringing it with logs so your in or out.

you could be IN or OUT or on top of logs or leaning on the outside of logs or leaning on inside of logs. it is never just in or out. :wink2:

[Skookum]

good call, line would be inside edge of log so on log would be out because anything crossing the line would fall into the green based on size of logs being used. So any inside leaners are good but outside is way out.

Hope to make it an oblong shape presenting the basket at on end, give a safe dirrection to throw but leaving a long come back putt(45ish) to a basket with OB on three sides like 12-15 feet away. Putt up or shut up time. Oh man I got goose bumps.

[Ol' Bob]

Oh man I got goose bumps.

CDD -- Course designers disease.

[Skookum]

Does that explain this rash...

[Ol' Bob]

Nope. That's probably burrowing mites.