Harmony/Milwaukie: Parks Advisory Board meeting, 1/14/10

[Adam Schneider]

Just got an e-mail from Michelle Healy at NCPRD:

We plan to present the concept plan to the park advisory board January 14 at the Milwaukie Center. The meeting starts at 5:30. Currently the plan includes the disc golf, however, I expect that there maybe some question about its inclusion. The DAB could recommend that it get taken out or changed - just like other things in the plan too (e.g. trails, picnic areas, etc).

You are welcome to come to the meeting to provide comments on the discussion. I'm sure there will be other people in attendance to do the same.

Give me a call if you need any more information, or details.

So this may be the defining moment, and the last chance to make our voices heard. As she said, "there will be other people in attendance to do the same." (Personally, I plan on emphasizing the huge hole in the map in this part of the metro area, and the fact that a close-in course saves disc golfers a lot of long carbon-burning car trips.)

Here's a map to the (new) location: http://tinyurl.com/milwaukiectr -- I know 5:30 is early, but get there as soon as you can, and let's see if we can get as many DGers as we did last summer at the Greenway forum. This is two days after a Stumptown meeting, so hopefully it can be brought up there and it'll be fresh in people's minds.


TreeLove, can you calendarize it?

["Over the Hill" Bob]

I should be able to make the meeting.

Bob

[BlarneyStoner]

Will do my best to get there in time... but I work till five in Cedar Hills. How long do these types of things usually run... probably couldn't be there till six.

[Adam Schneider]

Michelle told me they have administrative things to deal with first and probably won't get to the meat of the agenda until about 6:00 anyway... and who knows how long the comments and such might take. Just get there when you can.

[Adam Schneider]

Bump.

[NWDiscer]

Adam is this basically just getting head count of discer's and how much we would play the course?

I do believe i will be there with my wife and son after visiting my in-laws at conv. home just across 224/Harmony.

[Adam Schneider]

Adam is this basically just getting head count of discer's and how much we would play the course?
No, for now I'm just trying to get people to attend the meeting on Thursday evening.

There's no question the course will get played if it's built. Leverich is a testament to that.

[NWDiscer]

Adam is this basically just getting head count of discer's



No, for now I'm just trying to get people to attend the meeting on Thursday evening.




:trophy: ok :dancing:

we will be there by 6 if my p.o.s. car keep's running :whistler:

[Adam Schneider]

FYI, Michelle forwarded me a message that was distributed to an e-mail list maintained by "Friends of North Clackamas Parks." The author of the message was very agitated about the future of the oak trees and such on the Harmony campus, and was trying to rally their troops to come to this meeting. The good news (maybe) is that they are mostly concerned about the possibility of new roads, runoff issues, etc., so maybe disc golf isn't even on their radar. Or maybe it is and this particular message didn't mention it. At any rate, we certainly won't be the only ones there wanting to make comments.

5:30 TONIGHT!

[Susie Sunshine]

I won't be able to attend, as I work until 8 p.m. Booo!

["Over the Hill" Bob]

I should be there a bit early.

Bob

[Adam Schneider]

Five of us turned out tonight, which wasn't too bad, given that the meeting was pretty small overall, spectator-wise.

The District Advisory Board was admittedly pretty skeptical about disc golf; it seems that their preference would probably be to leave the property alone completely. But we're still on the table because one of the County's goals is getting people to actually use the property (i.e., keep the bums out).

Apparently they don't normally take much in the way of public comments at these meetings, but because Michelle pointed out our patient presence and because they knew they were pretty clueless about disc golf, they did let me stand up for a few minutes and give an impromptu spiel about it.

I told them about the minimal environmental impact that a course has (especially compared to ball golf, which immediately springs to most people's minds when they hear "golf"). I pointed out that if they build a course, people WILL come and play throughout the year. I pointed out the lack of courses in this part of town, and that a local course would save everyone a lot of miles of driving -- and I asked them to please consider disc golf at other sites, if this one doesn't work out.

Then I took questions: Who organizes the tee times? How much does it cost to play? If we were charged a fee, would we still play? How wide are the fairways? Could you use a walking path as a fairway?

At the end of the three-hour meeting, the board voted 4-3 to do absolutely nothing. Well, technically, they voted to study the issue some more and find out whether, in their eyes, disc golf was an "appropriate" recreational activity on this piece of land. (Never mind that the planners and landscape architects already decided that it was.) So, we keep waiting. At least they didn't shut the door completely.


The good news is, we're very much on their radar, and we're making contacts. One of the DAB members is a Happy Valley City Councilor, and he gave me his business card, saying "we'd love to see disc golf in Happy Valley." Unfortunately, the exact parcel of land he was thinking of is a former soybean field -- but there may be other opportunities out there. Completely unrelated to the Harmony land, there was talk of the County possibly buying land surrounding a Boy Scout Lodge on a butte out in Happy Valley, and OTH Bob says it'd be a great place for a course... so we'll keep an eye on that. I also got the card of a pro-DG guy at Clackamas County who said he can get us in touch with the appropriate people to ask about Meldrum Bar Park in Gladstone.

[PDXDuck]

Awesome! Thanks Adam, Bob and everyone else who made their presence known last night. I ended up having to work late and it looks like I missed the best meeting of them all thus far in regards to making our presence known.

The contacts you guys made in this meeting may add many more courses in the coming years than just this one if it works out.

[all2common]

Nice work ya'll.

[Adam Schneider]

By the way, I found out that the DAB members are not elected, they're volunteers.... BOB?? ;)

["Over the Hill" Bob]

It was an interesting meeting and an interesting insight into the workings of our local government. When did this all start, a couple of years ago? Actuallly it started about 20 years ago with a grand plan to fill in the marshy areas with dirt, built softball complexes, tennis courts, picnicing, ect ect. A couple of years ago Clackamas County Parks partnered with OIT, Clackamas Community College, and others to develope the Harmony/3 Creeks Vision. They've held meeting after meeting, worked diligently on developing a plan. Last night the lady in charge of all of this was presenting her plan to the Advisory Board to move forward and take it to the County Commisioners. Leave it "as is", make strictly a nature area, include other activeties such as but not limited to disc golf. Now, after all the planning and preperation, and when it's time to "move forward", the board decides that the best thing to do is to advise the County Commisioners that a Environmental Impact study needs to be done. Really? Nobody thought of this sooner?

I think at the first mention of disc golf most of the Board had no idea of what it was and those that did for sure didn't want it at this park. By the end of the meeting and after Adam addressed the Board, I believe we now have several Board members that are on our side. Guess we'll see though!

Bob

[DanD]

Adam, thanks so much for all your efforts and persistance! I know you had about a 1,000 things better to do but I, and I'm sure many others, truly appreciate it.

[NWDiscer]

It was an interesting meeting and an interesting insight into the workings of our local government. When did this all start, a couple of years ago? Actuallly it started about 20 years ago with a grand plan to fill in the marshy areas with dirt, built softball complexes, tennis courts, picnicing, ect ect. A couple of years ago Clackamas County Parks partnered with OIT, Clackamas Community College, and others to develope the Harmony/3 Creeks Vision. They've held meeting after meeting, worked diligently on developing a plan. Last night the lady in charge of all of this was presenting her plan to the Advisory Board to move forward and take it to the County Commisioners. Leave it "as is", make strictly a nature area, include other activeties such as but not limited to disc golf. Now, after all the planning and preperation, and when it's time to "move forward", the board decides that the best thing to do is to advise the County Commisioners that a Environmental Impact study needs to be done. Really? Nobody thought of this sooner?

I think at the first mention of disc golf most of the Board had no idea of what it was and those that did for sure didn't want it at this park. By the end of the meeting and after Adam addressed the Board, I believe we now have several Board members that are on our side. Guess we'll see though!

Bob

My Wife and I were also a little like "what what what" :confused: by the 20 year aspect of the overall meeting and with NO E.I. study here in Oregon....

but after Adam spoke it seemed like there was a more positive aspect than a neg. one from the board towards the disc course going in.

So again many props and thanks should be going to Adam for getting and keeping this disc rolling forward. :trophy::yay:


and who was the guy in the khaki shorts at the end of the meeting......:rolleyes2::p


also big shout out to my son who came with us and displayed some of the best manners i could have seen or asked from him. :yay::cheerleader:

["Over the Hill" Bob]

My Wife and I were also a little like "what what what" :confused: by the 20 year aspect of the overall meeting and with NO E.I. study here in Oregon....

but after Adam spoke it seemed like there was a more positive aspect than a neg. one from the board towards the disc course going in.

So again many props and thanks should be going to Adam for getting and keeping this disc rolling forward. :trophy::yay:


and who was the guy in the khaki shorts at the end of the meeting......:rolleyes2::p


also big shout out to my son who came with us and displayed some of the best manners i could have seen or asked from him. :yay::cheerleader:

Yeah, the guy in the shorts was a hoot. I didn't catch the group he was representing but when he told the Board they had to show his group respect and contact THEM before they could do anything, I about fell out of my chair.

Scott, I did notice how quiet and polite your son was last night. Tell him I'm proud of him and thank him for me.

Bob

[Adam Schneider]

The khaki shorts guy was from a Community Planning Organization (a committee of neighbors or neighborhood associations) in Milwaukie. At first I thought he had a good point when he pointed out to the DAB that someone had, indeed, made a survey of the natural resources that would be impacted by the Sunnybrook Road extension... but then I was baffled by his insistence that the master plan had never had a chance to be vetted by neighborhood groups. The last public meeting, in April, featured large poster-sized copies of the Near-Term and Far-Term concept plans, and invited the public to comment.


I honestly don't know whether we changed any minds on the council from nays to yeas, but at the very least we made them a little better informed about the issues at hand.

I also don't know whether they're talking about doing a full-on Environmental Impact Study -- I doubt it, as those can be very expensive. (Just ask the city of Chico, CA.) I think it's more about surveying the land in person and talking more with the people at the County -- someone named Tanya was mentioned -- about the studies they've already done.

[motherhucker]

By the way, I found out that the DAB members are not elected, they're volunteers.... BOB??

In a word, OTHB's wife says NO! He needs a paying gig first. :)

[DiscGolfOregon3]

Well done lads (and Scott's Boy) :bowing:

Here is my input and thoughts/suggestions if anyone is interested . . . maybe attend the next meeting/gathering with (or make available now to all parties present at the recent meeting) a stack of copies of a disc golf course(s) installation proposal, including possible course layouts and parties responsible, along with a long-term time line, at least five years if possible. This "time line" style proposal should certainly include personal opinions w/ explanations supported by fact and personally researched environmental effects and outlooks . . . :bricks:

If it were I, then I'd prefer that I could personally present any said proposal in a meeting/group format, but preferably fact-practiced beforehand to address a small group and/or face-to-face individualistic style. I'd suggest contacting the organizers of the aforementioned "Park Advisory Board" to see if they would be kind enough to schedule in an "official" :chinscratch: timeslot, wherein Adam Schneider of (stumptown?, PDGA?, DiscGolfOregon join free (http://www.discgolforegon.com/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=registers) ), along with several other dg supporters (players or not) would be given the floor to present the yet-to-be-created-magnificent-genius-wonderful disc golf course proposal.

It would be very easy for we the NW disc golfers to compile several opinions and quotes from non disc golf oriented agencies, such as cities, counties, states, and private property owners, not to mention local citizens enjoying parks that were previously to scary or risky to enjoy before we the disc golfers chased out the riff-raff . . . no prob

planning, work, effort, planning, wor . . . speedbump . . . k, effort, planning, work, eff . . . speedbump . . . ort, planning, planning, planning, and planning

Show up WAY more prepared, hand-outs and all, than any other represented group . . . easy way to portray that we the disc golfers mean business.

-Derek :cool:
www.DiscGolfOregon.com

[Adam Schneider]

I've been sending such materials (PDGA documents, news articles from around the country) to the Planning folks all along; that's how we got on the Master Plan to begin with. Michelle has a thick folder of stuff I've sent her. But this was the first meeting where we actually got a chance to say anything at all... disc golf has simply not been an issue. Now it is, and it'll be up to the DAB to decide what the next step is.

I think coming up with a layout would be extremely premature, because they're going to have more restrictions than you could ever imagine (I suspect the "Tsunami Crew" will try to fill the map with so many red X's that they basically choke us out entirely), and we don't even know which land we'd be allowed to use.

(And Stumptown? Ha. They've been AWOL in this entire process.)

[Pizzel]

(And Stumptown? Ha. They've been AWOL in this entire process.)Adam, are you a current member of Stumptown? Have you ever attended a club meeting or contacted club leadership? Do you know what projects Stumptown is currently working on? Do you know how projects are proposed and supported within the organization? I would ask that you stop disparaging the club until you have answers to all the above questions. In my opinion, your continued remarks on this are making you and the club ‘look bad’. You can make contact with the club here (http://www.stumptowndiscgolf.org/contact).

[Adam Schneider]

No, I'm not a member of Stumptown, and don't plan to become one. But here's what I know: Stumptown is, or should be, aware of this project. Their "leadership" all read this forum. So you'd think they'd be all over it, based on their stated mission to "support and promote the growth of disc golf through the installation of new courses and continued improvements at existing courses."

Yet I've seen no representation at these meetings from Stumptown aside from Bob Cabal, who as a resident of Milwaukie would've come no matter what -- and who is no longer involved with Stumptown. (If he has more to say about why not, I'll let him speak up.)

This is not my personal project; the Three Creeks area is a community park in the middle of a huge territory that currently contains no disc golf courses. If Stumptown doesn't want to get involved because I haven't gone to them personally and made an appeal... well, hell, why should I have to? The very possibility of a new course in the urban core isn't enough to get them involved? Should the #1 item in the charter perhaps be amended to also read "but only courses that were initiated by Stumptown members, or where the club can host tournaments"? (Is that what's going on? Is 9 holes beneath them?)

When all of this started, over two years ago, I thought that the recent formation of a local club would be a real benefit to the planning/advocacy process. I had high hopes for Stumptown's involvement, and had a positive attitude about it. But the apparent apathy I've seen has soured me on it.

[Adam Schneider]

In other news, I got an e-mail today from Michelle Healy, and she said that "the next step would be to present the information to the Board of County Commissioners (BCC)." I'm not sure what happened to "studying the site in more detail," which the DAB seemed to want; I'll get more information from her. And I'll find out whether she thinks we -- the disc golf community -- should make a presentation, or if she wants to collaborate with us on compiling relevant information that she would present.

[BlarneyStoner]

No, I'm not a member of Stumptown, and don't plan to become one. But here's what I know: Stumptown is, or should be, aware of this project. Their "leadership" all read this forum. So you'd think they'd be all over it, based on their stated mission to "support and promote the growth of disc golf through the installation of new courses and continued improvements at existing courses."

Yet I've seen no representation at these meetings from Stumptown aside from Bob Cabal, who as a resident of Milwaukie would've come no matter what -- and who is no longer involved with Stumptown. (If he has more to say about why not, I'll let him speak up.)

This is not my personal project; the Three Creeks area is a community park in the middle of a huge territory that currently contains no disc golf courses. If Stumptown doesn't want to get involved because I haven't gone to them personally and made an appeal... well, hell, why should I have to? The very possibility of a new course in the urban core isn't enough to get them involved? Should the #1 item in the charter perhaps be amended to also read "but only courses that were initiated by Stumptown members, or where the club can host tournaments"? (Is that what's going on? Is 9 holes beneath them?)

When all of this started, over two years ago, I thought that the recent formation of a local club would be a real benefit to the planning/advocacy process. I had high hopes for Stumptown's involvement, and had a positive attitude about it. But the apparent apathy I've seen has soured me on it.

Wow. No response from the powers that be at Stumptown. I mean, didn't really seem like they had a leg to stand on... but I was looking forward to the attempt.

[robdillpdx]

Any updates since the meeting? Went down and walked around the area today, can't wait. It's within walking distance for me so if there are any work parties or anything put it on here and I'll show up!

[dcnewt2]

Hey Adam-
Has there been any more discussion on this course or any of the alternates that were mentioned above? (meldrum bar) It sure would be nice to fill in the gap on the DG map here in Clackamas. We are surrounded by great courses, but all of them are at least 30 minutes away.

[Adam Schneider]

This is the last I heard, in September:

The county roads department is moving forward on some additional design work to give to the Board of County Commissioners. The BCC will then use this info to determine if the Road is going to be built or not. No movement on a decision regarding the park until the road is decided (I know...it is frustrating). Ultimately people couldn't separate the park from the "road". DTD is managing the road design process.

I would love to find out more about Meldrum Bar, which is apparently owned by the city of Gladstone, but my inquiries seem to wind up in a bureaucratic black hole.