What do you think about Am's playing Pro

[keith_shupp]

Im running the Oregon Master cup next summer and this event is for Pro players only but it is a non-Pdga event. I want to know what players think of people who play Am for Pdga events but will play Pro for non-Pdga event. This has been a issue for years and I think its a little shady when a player will bump up when its a non-Pdga. Im thinking of having players who play this event be true Pro players only and maybe not allow Am players bump up to pro because its a non-Pdga event.

What do you think.?:nono::evilgrin::slapface:

[Scott]

What do you think.?:nono::evilgrin::slapface:
I think it sounds a little elitist.

What's wrong with an AM testing the waters in a non PDGA event?

[sillybizz]

In most other sports when you go pro there is no turning back, I see no reason why disc golf should be any different.

[DanD]

Figures, Shupp's scared of an Am kickin' his tail at his own tourney...

[OneDarkRebel]

"true Pro players"...I don't get it. What, by definition, is a "true Pro player"???? How many sanctioned pro tourneys do they need to play to be true? Do they need to have cashed in pro to be true? Do they have to be over/under a certain rating to be true?? I think I need better detail on what a "true Pro player" is...If a pro who has accepted cash but is under 970 rated drops to AM at a certain event, which the pdga says is ok, does that not make them a "true Pro player" anymore??? Explain please!!!!

[TYVEK]

i agree with Scott,

if its not part of the PDGA then whos to say what player is pro caliber and whos not? it is the perfect time for somebody to see what it is like playing up a level. i dont think it would be right to try and regulate the players, and tell somebody like Eric Lund for instance "sorry you cant play pro becuase you play Advanced for the PDGA".

[Kenny B]

Im running the Oregon Master cup next summer and this event is for Pro players only but it is a non-Pdga event. I want to know what players think of people who play Am for Pdga events but will play Pro for non-Pdga event. This has been a issue for years and I think its a little shady when a player will bump up when its a non-Pdga. Im thinking of having players who play this event be true Pro players only and maybe not allow Am players bump up to pro because its a non-Pdga event.

What do you think.?

Sorry, but I don't think this makes any sense. To me the terms "Pro" and "Am" in disc golf only have meaning in the context of the PDGA. There is no such thing as Pro or Am in non-PDGA. A player can win hundreds of $ in non-PDGA and the PDGA doesn't know or even care about it. The player can then play Am all they want...win Am worlds and everything.

[Bullseye]

If you are going to have a "Pro Only" event it will undoubtedly attract some interest from AM players. To ensure the pro players do not get frozen out of their own tourney, I would suggest that you open registration in phases. The first one month long phase of registration would only allow PDGA registered pros to sign up. After that initial month then you can open up registration to anyone and everyone. If the Pros can't get their act together within that first month then that is their problem.

What should not happen is AMs filling up a Pro event to the point where interested Pros cannot get in.

Just take a look at what happened to last years BSF. The AM side filled up so fast that a lot of AMs started signing up on the Pro side and a lot of pros could not get in. (FYI: Pros pay considerably higher renewal fees to the PDGA so they should get preference in a "Pro" event.)


PS: Keith... SANCTION THIS EVENT WITH THE PDGA!!!! The insurance aspect alone is easily worth the additional money.

[RonTheWhip]

Let whoever wants to play, play. "True Pro's" as it were would prefer to see a full field of golfers than anything else. More players = more money :)

["Over the Hill" Bob]

I think it sounds a little elitist.

What's wrong with an AM testing the waters in a non PDGA event?

Yeah, what he said! :cheers:

Bob

[Lance]

Stirring the pot agian, I see.

[The Ombudsman]

Many times, in my experience, the non pdga tourneys generally have a weaker field than those sanctioned by the PDGA. A decent Am might just believe he (or she) can do well against a pro field of lesser caliber. I discount the theory of someone doing this just to dodge the PDGA. I mean, how many true sandbagging amateurs are there who can (consistently) win as a pro at any given tournament?
Most sandbagging Ams I know will be chided into going pro and staying pro, eventually...

[REDFIVE]

I think that your thoughts are backwards on this. Any am that wants to move up should be encouraged. Not sure what the problem is?

[LakeStevensBA]

If Jeff Elliott moves up for this tourney, can you see if you can keep him there permanently? He's killing us here in Ams... You can also keep Paul Wright as well...Good luck against them.

[keith_shupp]

To me a true pro player is someone who steps up and declares there self a pro player not if they won money or what there rating is. Why I started this was for two reasons one is those players who play am for years and will only jump to pro because its a non-Pdga events. there are players in our area who have played am for 10 years even some have played for 20 years(sand bag for ever). The second Bullseye brought up and that it will fill up and true pro's wont be able to sign up because of all the am's.

I have $2500 added cash already for payout and my goals is $5,000 which I will know by the end of the year. Im doing this event for the true Pro's players I want to see open pro, pro masters and pro grandmasters come out and play for some serious money and not have to deal with the cry baby am divisions getting in our way:waaah:. Its time to seperate the men from the boys so if you are not a true pro player I dont want you to sign up just stay in your division. But if you think your ready make the move and declare yourself a true pro then you are welcome to sign up. Im only taking a 144 players for this event and if I dont get enough true pro's to sign up then thats okay I dont have to fill the rest of the field with want a be's who will just go back to playing am. We need to have more just pro events and it would be nice to see the Oregon pdga events step up and do this because you would see more pro's play again.

[DanD]

It's a Pro Master's event, is there really concern that it will get filled by Am's? and it's at Timber where even Shupp has a shot at bogey golf.

[keith_shupp]

It's a Pro Master's event, is there really concern that it will get filled by Am's? and it's at Timber where even Shupp has a shot at bogey golf.

No its at Hornings hideout and its for all pro divisions sorry dan we wont have your sissy am divisions.Maybe you can hook up with some old folks your own age you know the ones with the walkers.:pullhair:

[michaelgood03]

if an am can beat a pro, let him. i wouldn't want to join this tourney.

[keith_shupp]

if an am can beat a pro, let him. i wouldn't want to join this tourney.

you must be a am player?

[snap7times]

I would probably do the restricted early registration to those who are above a certain rating or are registered as pro status with the pdga for a few weeks or even a month as suggested above to ensure that those pros who want to play can play, and then open the flood gates but hold a few more spots for those pros who register closer to tournament date, but set a deadline for holding the spots and annouce it to the public so there is no "inside stuff"... I would probably restrict anyone under 900 rated from playing, those boys need more practice before they drag the real pros around the course with their extra 10-20 strokes a round... hehehe stirrrrrr snap stirrrrrrr....

[OneDarkRebel]

WOW!! What a terrible attitude for a TD...But, it seems that the resounding response to this thread is that whoever wants to play should be able to play...they're paying the same entry fees as everyone else which adds to the payout right?? So what is the big issue. And "cry baby ams"?? What's up with that?? It seems, at this point, that the only person crying is the person who is initially seeking the input...Why ask the question if you OBVIOUSLY don't like the answers you're getting. It's your tourney, the attitude sucks in my opinion, but it's your tourney. Now, if I'm still playing Adv how do I need to swear myself in to Pro to play this event? Maybe in blood? On the Bible? Will there be a Constitution that needs to be signed...Maybe a notary should be present! Will there be "true Pro" secret decoder rings given out for all who swear to the "true Pro" Gods??

["Over the Hill" Bob]

To me a true pro player is someone who steps up and declares there self a pro player not if they won money or what there rating is. Why I started this was for two reasons one is those players who play am for years and will only jump to pro because its a non-Pdga events. there are players in our area who have played am for 10 years even some have played for 20 years(sand bag for ever). The second Bullseye brought up and that it will fill up and true pro's wont be able to sign up because of all the am's.

I have $2500 added cash already for payout and my goals is $5,000 which I will know by the end of the year. Im doing this event for the true Pro's players I want to see open pro, pro masters and pro grandmasters come out and play for some serious money and not have to deal with the cry baby am divisions getting in our way:waaah:. Its time to seperate the men from the boys so if you are not a true pro player I dont want you to sign up just stay in your division. But if you think your ready make the move and declare yourself a true pro then you are welcome to sign up. Im only taking a 144 players for this event and if I dont get enough true pro's to sign up then thats okay I dont have to fill the rest of the field with want a be's who will just go back to playing am. We need to have more just pro events and it would be nice to see the Oregon pdga events step up and do this because you would see more pro's play again.

I am all for a Pro only event and have toyed with the idea of running one myself. Great idea! WRONG way to go about it! :nono:

I will not endorse this event and will encourage any and all Pro and Am players to not play it. This is not what I envision disc golf in this area to be about. Sorry Keith but this attitude is just plain wrong.

Bob

[Scott]

My impression is that "True Pro" = "One of Keith's Buddies".

[snap7times]

WOW!! What a terrible attitude for a TD...But, it seems that the resounding response to this thread is that whoever wants to play should be able to play...they're paying the same entry fees as everyone else which adds to the payout right?? So what is the big issue. And "cry baby ams"?? What's up with that?? It seems, at this point, that the only person crying is the person who is initially seeking the input...Why ask the question if you OBVIOUSLY don't like the answers you're getting. It's your tourney, the attitude sucks in my opinion, but it's your tourney. Now, if I'm still playing Adv how do I need to swear myself in to Pro to play this event? Maybe in blood? On the Bible? Will there be a Constitution that needs to be signed...Maybe a notary should be present! Will there be "true Pro" secret decoder rings given out for all who swear to the "true Pro" Gods??

I would think you need to shoot some good disc golf from now until the tournament to prove you aren't some kind of player who talks but dosent throw..... or bring a few trophies you ahve won in AMS...

[Magilla]

I think that there is NO reason WHY an AM player shouldnt be allowed to "Step Up" and play Pro if he/she wishes to "test the waters"

There are certain events where entry by AMs should be limited UNTIL the Pros have been given a fair opportunity to sign up, ie Beaver State Fling, etc.

I am a serious advocate of running seperate Pro & Am events in our region purely due to the size of our players pool. For this very reason, we have split the Shootout at Hyzer Pines, next year, into two seperate events. I am quite sure that the AM event will nearly FILL, and also hope that some of the TOP AMS will "step Up" and play the Pro event as well.

MOST Pros have NO issues with Ams playing in Pro divisons. In VERY FEW cases will they cash, so as Dion stated..Its just MORE $ for us Pros to Win.

:cheers:

[Magilla]

I would think you need to shoot some good disc golf from now until the tournament to prove you aren't some kind of player who talks but dosent throw..... or bring a few trophies you ahve won in AMS...

Ah, Snap....O.D.R. is a pretty good AM...and "sometimes" he even gets lucky and beats a Pro heads up...:whistler: :slapface: :waaah:

:cheers:

[Bullseye]

I will not endorse this event and will encourage any and all Pro and Am players to not play it. This is not what I envision disc golf in this area to be about. Sorry Keith but this attitude is just plain wrong.

Bob

Bob,

We all have a right to our own opinions, and while you might not agree with what Keith envisions encouraging people not to attend his event is not very diplomatic. Didn't a WA thread just blow up recently due to someone trying to start a boycott on another person's event?

If you don't like what Keith is putting on... don't go. Its that simple, but telling other people not to go is... in your own words... just plain wrong.

Respectfully,

An Elitist Semi-Pro Snob

[Scott]

Nothing wrong with telling people why you aren't going and allowing to make their own decision, right?

[OneDarkRebel]

That's right Magilla, and those Pro's took it like men...Except for a little whining...

[Magilla]

That's right Magilla, and those Pro's took it like men...Except for a little whining...

:shooting::shooting::shooting::shooting:

:pullhair::pullhair::pullhair::pullhair:

:D

[jevon]

An Elitist Semi-Pro Snob

Perfect!!! :rockon:

[Magilla]

Another thought on this.....

Kieth, Back when WE started playing there wasnt such an emphasis put on the whole Pro/Am thing...If you started winning events as an AM the Pros MADE YOU MOVE UP. We just are not allowed to do that anymore. Hence the talented AMS that we now have all across the country, just do not move into the pro division FULL TIME until they have accomplished thier goals of doing well at Am Worlds. If you look back for the past few years, the players who have WON AM Worlds typically play MORE Pro events than they do as AMS. And until recently they had to deny cash or payout all together. Now they are allowed to play Pro and except scrip in lieu of cash if they play well enough.
The ratings system was designed to place people where they should be by how they play, the issue there is ALL Bump Rules were then abolished and a player can stay AM as long as they like no matter how good a player they become. I "could" step down and play AM if I wanted to due to the "Pros playing AM rule", But I just cant do it after 15 yrs in the Pro divisions.

:rolleyes2:

[Magilla]

Nothing wrong with telling people why you aren't going and allowing to make their own decision, right?

Any AM offended by Kieth is surely welcome to come play the AM ONLY Shootout at Hyzer Pines that same weekend in Sisters...
:whistler:

:biggrin2:

Unfortunately for me, I will be the TD, and will not be able to attend the Pioneer Masters Cup.....AGAIN.
:waaah:

:kissflowers:

[Scott]

Any AM offended by Kieth is surely welcome to come play the AM ONLY Shootout at Hyzer Pines that same weekend in Sisters...
:whistler:

:biggrin2:

Now we're talkin'!

Although it would be nice if they were on seperate weekends so Keith could help out at the AM event.

[TYVEK]

If Jeff Elliott moves up for this tourney, can you see if you can keep him there permanently? He's killing us here in Ams... You can also keep Paul Wright as well...Good luck against them.

they play where their ratings say they can play, i would suggest to everybody that complains about them winning so much that you need to step up your game to be competitive. not try to boot them out so everybody else can feel better.

[Magilla]

Now we're talkin'!

Although it would be nice if they were on seperate weekends so Keith could help out at the AM event.


The Rebels have PLENTY of Pro Players who will be on hand to Staff the AM side of the Shootout................AND Ams who will do the same for the Pros the following weekend.
:cheers:

[Scott]

The Rebels have PLENTY of Pro Players who will be on hand to Staff the AM side of the Shootout................AND Ams who will do the same for the Pros the following weekend.
:cheers:

I understand. I was taking a jab at Keith, since he seems to love us AMs so much.

[Mike G]

I am all for a Pro only event and have toyed with the idea of running one myself. Great idea! WRONG way to go about it! :nono:

I will not endorse this event and will encourage any and all Pro and Am players to not play it. This is not what I envision disc golf in this area to be about. Sorry Keith but this attitude is just plain wrong.


Bob
I'm with Bob. Keith Stinks.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Bob,

We all have a right to our own opinions, and while you might not agree with what Keith envisions encouraging people not to attend his event is not very diplomatic. Didn't a WA thread just blow up recently due to someone trying to start a boycott on another person's event?

If you don't like what Keith is putting on... don't go. Its that simple, but telling other people not to go is... in your own words... just plain wrong.

Respectfully,

An Elitist Semi-Pro Snob

Ok, maybe I'm wrong and shouldn't encourage anyone to not play in this event. Make up your own minds, if this is the direction you want Disc Golf to go in our area, then feel free to sign up.

Seperating Pro and Am tournaments is enevitable and if done right is not a problem. Props to Magilla for his Hyser Pines tournament. Discouraging players from playing is wrong and that is what is happening here.

Remember Jeff as an Elitist "Semi-Pro" Snob, you are not welcome in Keiths event. Only true Pro's! :whistler:

Bob

[Bullseye]

Ok, maybe I'm wrong and shouldn't encourage anyone to not play in this event. Make up your own minds, if this is the direction you want Disc Golf to go in our area, then feel free to sign up.

Seperating Pro and Am tournaments is enevitable and if done right is not a problem. Props to Magilla for his Hyser Pines tournament. Discouraging players from playing is wrong and that is what is happening here.

Remember Jeff as an Elitist "Semi-Pro" Snob, you are not welcome in Keiths event. Only true Pro's! :whistler:

Bob

The prefix Semi directly correlates to my frequency of CASHING.

[Magilla]

Seperating Pro and Am tournaments is enevitable and if done right is not a problem. Props to Magilla for his Hyser Pines tournament. Discouraging players from playing is wrong and that is what is happening here.

Bob


There "should" also be seperate Pro & Am events at Whistlers this year....:whistler:

:cheers:

[keith_shupp]

My impression is that "True Pro" = "One of Keith's Buddies".

Scott you must be a am too and I know Bob is to. Number one if you know me Im joking with the am's and also I have been playing for 27 years and I seen the sport grow and change alot but some of the changes I dont like. We have way to many am,s division and not enough people moving to pro level that is one thing that I would like to see change.

Bob its okay that you dont like me or what Im trying to do thats okay. I have done more for this sport than most of you and what Im trying to do is get pro,s to play this event to see how we can run pro events and to get some players back that wont play the big events with am's. Also I have gotten a few calls from pro's since I started this thread who agree with what Im saying and trying to do. Alot of pro players wont play these big events any more because of the am field.why should we pay higher fee's then have to play with huge am fields.

I forget how some people get upset when they read these post and if you are mad at what Im saying im sorry . I just dont want to have am players to play the event and go back to playing am after the event. I have been working hard raising money and some other suprizes for the event to show pro's this is what we need.:angel:

[Scott]

Scott you must be a am too and I know Bob is to.

Yep, you caught me. Am city. Looks like I won't get to play in your little tournament. What a shame.

[snap7times]

I'm with Bob. Keith Stinks.

nothing wrong with a TD getting a feel for the community's view on these events....

[olydiscgolf]

It doesn't sound like anybodys getting a feel for the community views to me. It sounds like facist, Amature golfer bashing! What a PROFESSIONAL DOUCHE BAG!

[OneDarkRebel]

I personally have no problem with a TD getting a feel for things, however there was not much tact or class in the way the "inquiry" was done by the TD. I would've expected more from a TD myself...BUT, to answer Snap, I do constantly work on my inconsistent play all the time (this is the reason I am still an Adv player) and can bring some trophies from Int and Adv divisions if this will buy me the coveted "true Pro" title for this event...do my opinions strike me from getting the secret decoder ring??

[keith_shupp]

It doesn't sound like anybodys getting a feel for the community views to me. It sounds like facist, Amature golfer bashing! What a PROFESSIONAL DOUCHE BAG!

Olydiscgolf your wrong im getting some good community views on this forum and from phone calls too. thanks for your input and sorry you think Im a douchebag. I will lose sleep tonight because some of you are calling me names that just hurts.

[snap7times]

One person is a vegan, the other a vegetarian, the other a lacto-vegetarian, the other a carnivore... each has their own approach to life, none are correct, none are wrong, just different approaches to the same goal...

[snap7times]

It doesn't sound like anybodys getting a feel for the community views to me. It sounds like facist, Amature golfer bashing! What a PROFESSIONAL DOUCHE BAG!

Brian? I didn't know you moved to Olyland, sigh, mods, ban this dude again please.... :nahnah:

[Pizzel]

I will lose sleep tonight because some of you are calling me names that just hurts.How much sleep can you really loose at your age? Don't you only sleep for like 5 hours as is.....up before 4pm......get to IHOP for coffee with the boys by 5am........Matlock at 11pm.......Perry Mason at 12pm........chair aerobics at 4pm......etc....

[smobro]

RAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I hear there is going to be a HYZER PINES tourney next year? AWESOME! Can't wait to get some revenge on the Stump hole!!!!!!
Do I have to be a Pro to play in the Advanced Masters? Elliott? Reichard? did you catch that?:biggrin2:

[DexterHawk]

One way to get the high quality field that you are pursuing would be to make the event an invitational. Make a list of the players from Oregon and Washington who play tournaments in Open, masters and grandmasters, add to them the players with higher ratings from the am divisions, throw in a list of touring players (you can dream can't you). That way it's an achievement just to play. One more suggestion. Make it a one division tournament ala the USDGC!

[keith_shupp]

Im sorry that am players got hurt by my joking around most of the replys were good info. am and advance players dont get me wrong Im not putting you down because you dont move up when I started playing there was one division for years then came am. now we have a division for everything am and when you play events you have very few pro's signed up and its because of many reasons. There are those few am players who never move up and just stay am for years (10 to 20 years) those were the am players im talking about. I also believe if you play advance and decide to play pro at a event you do have the right but if you just do it for non-Pdga events then go back to advance then I think your wrong. You learn more jumping to pro sooner than if you stay am for a long time because you play with better players and learn at a faster pace.:posting::biggrin2:

[SPIDER-DAN]

Ive played am for several years and loved it, but i realized it was time to step up due to the fact that i love this sport and im competitive..........i love the challenge. I was a 930 rated player going pro and now im 970+ because of that. I may never be a 1000 rated player........in fact, i just recently went back down to 950 due to one tournament and just got back up again. I understand what keith is saying and maybe he should have the tournament sanctioned, but should we really get this upset over it. I seem to end a lot of threads when i post, but i think it will happen this time...........a 'true pro' could be defined by a player playing pro and only pro after stepping up and never going back ever!!!

Ps please dont bash me.........just my opinion........im really a nice guy.

[RonTheWhip]

Ive played am for several years and loved it, but i realized it was time to step up due to the fact that i love this sport and im competitive..........i love the challenge. I was a 930 rated player going pro and now im 970+ because of that. I may never be a 1000 rated player........in fact, i just recently went back down to 950 due to one tournament and just got back up again. I understand what keith is saying and maybe he should have the tournament sanctioned, but should we really get this upset over it. I seem to end a lot of threads when i post, but i think it will happen this time...........a 'true pro' could be defined by a player playing pro and only pro after stepping up and never going back ever!!!

Ps please dont bash me.........just my opinion........im really a nice guy.

Haha, Dan...that was good.

I'm stoked for this event personally. How many tournaments can say they have raised 2500 and are only half way to their goal? None, thats how many (excluding BSF). I have already started plans for the Willamette Open A Tier next September, and I am also looking into how I can encourage more Pro players to attend. I however will not be excluding Ams from playing pro, since it will be a great oppertunity to play with some big dogs.

Andy's idea of an Invitational event is pretty rad. Thats a good way of ensuring you get only the type of player's you want in your tourney. However, it can be a bit exclusive, so invite lots of people ;)

[Magilla]

Andy's idea of an Invitational event is pretty rad. Thats a good way of ensuring you get only the type of player's you want in your tourney. However, it can be a bit exclusive, so invite lots of people ;)

Be patient....an "Invitational" IS coming. You can BET on it.
:drool:

:cheers:

[E Smith]

Im running the Oregon Master cup next summer and this event is for Pro players only but it is a non-Pdga event. I want to know what players think of people who play Am for Pdga events but will play Pro for non-Pdga event. This has been a issue for years and I think its a little shady when a player will bump up when its a non-Pdga. Im thinking of having players who play this event be true Pro players only and maybe not allow Am players bump up to pro because its a non-Pdga event.

What do you think.?:nono::evilgrin::slapface:

I didn't read all the posts. Have we gotten to the point where Keith gets aggravated and cancels the event? Quit your damn whining, make it an invitational and speed up the clock so we can play the Oregon Master Cup.:yay:

E:cheers:

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Im sorry that am players got hurt by my joking around most of the replys were good info. am and advance players dont get me wrong Im not putting you down because you dont move up when I started playing there was one division for years then came am. now we have a division for everything am and when you play events you have very few pro's signed up and its because of many reasons. There are those few am players who never move up and just stay am for years (10 to 20 years) those were the am players im talking about. I also believe if you play advance and decide to play pro at a event you do have the right but if you just do it for non-Pdga events then go back to advance then I think your wrong. You learn more jumping to pro sooner than if you stay am for a long time because you play with better players and learn at a faster pace.:posting::biggrin2:

Keith, maybe this would have been a better first post along with more :nahnah::cheers::whistler::laughing::biggrin2::):D :wink2:

instead of just a :waaah:. :laughing:

For the record, I don't dislike you Keith. :cheers: Some of your opinions and the way they come across? :shooting::shooting::shooting: I believe maybe you are the Pro Ying to my AM Yang. :) With my skills as a disc golfer I probably shouldn't even play PDGA tournaments. I have no chance or very little chance of winning or even placing in what ever division I play in. So why would I do it? I do it to be sure there are enough players and money to make a tournament happen. To give YOU and other PRO and AM players a venue to pursue what you love. AM players have been supporting tournaments for a long time to ensure a future for ALL to be able to play. It becomes very personal then, when we, as AMs are being dissed, mistreated, made to feel unwanted, or unworthy of the PRO player. What player ever went from never playing a tournament to playing Pro? Growth in the sport is happening at the AM level. We have more PRO's because we have more AMs coming into and growing the sport. We aren't to the level of the NBA yet. Kids see a Michael Jordan on tv and want to become a great basketball player. Kids aren't seeing Dave Feldberg or Avery Jenkins on tv and saying I want to be a disc golfer. New players are seeing other players in parks playing disc golf and saying, this is something I think I'll try.

Anyway, after your last post Keith, I agree with what you are trying to do. I too look forward to the day when there is a clear line between Pro and Am. Where Ams dream of the day they can turn Pro and compete in Pro events. It has to happen sometime, somewhere, and I can't think of anyplace better than here in Oregon. :trophy:

Now I'm back to watching NCIS and YOU can get back to watching Matlock, Keith. :biggrin2:

Bob

[keith_shupp]

For sure this event will happen and I wont let anything get me down to where I wont do it. To me its time for all pro events to happen for number one that is how you get big cash sponsor truce me I know this one because of things I have been told by certian sponsors. I have been going after sponsor for over 20 years and there are some that only want to give big cash to pro events. Also the pro pool will get bigger faster because of the seperation between having all am events and pro. I for one also would love to help with am events and in return we could see am's wanting to help with the pro events. It's not that we are leaving each other but helping each other grow and make the sport better. I also like how the Women step up and started there own series and look at the support they got from Men.

Bob I new you did not hate me but I too read stuff on the forum and get mad before I think or if is someone I dont know says something i dont like I go dam what a jerk. Its good to not agree and to have some debat about disc golf I have been wrong many of times and have learned it from other golfers. So I wont make to many hidden jokes in my post any more. now I might get to sleep after reading some of your thoughts.:whistler:

[smobro]

Just a question, then my opinion.
Is competitive Disc Golf, a hobby, a pastime, a recreation, a game, an activity, or a sport?

If competitive Disc Golf is a sport then IMO playing as a professional should have some minimum standards. A persons rating does not have to be one of them, but consistant performance within a range should be. The rating system does indicate a certain level of consistant play in sanctioned competition. How about this: players should not be allowed to play pro in any sanctioned PDGA tour event until they have maintained a 970 rating or better for at least 2 rating periods, and they can not play in a sanctioned PDGA tour event if they are below that rating at the time of the event.

To be a Pro in any other sport is to be the elite in that sport. That is what spectators come to see. If the sport of Disc Golf has any chance of paying these elite athletes what their peers in other sports get paid, then being a pro must be considerably more difficult. Becoming a Pro at Disc Golf should be as difficult as becoming a pro tennis player, or a pro baseball player. A person should not be able to play for 6 months and then become a part of the sports elite players. That should never happen. It doesn't happen anywhere else in high level athletics. The best player at our finest tournament this year made $15,000 for first place and 4 days of elite level, incredible, gut wrenching, grinding golf. That is pathetic. It is lunch money. He should have walked away with $150,000 or more for that effort. And hundreds of thousands of people should have witnessed it in person and on TV. I for one, followed almost every second.

You know what folks, as long as anyone is allowed to be playing in the pro field, the purse will never be what it should be. Tighten the requirements to play at the elite level and the big bucks, sponsorships, notariety, and more awesome courses will come.

So, I say tighten up the divisions. Make people prove they belong at the next level. If they don't belong there, then they should go back and play with their equals until they can up their game. I don't see anything wrong with that at all.

To play in professional golf tournaments you must qualify or be invited by exemption. Your handicap does not matter. If you play the best golf of your life at Q school or qualify for the US Open, you get to play on tour. If you stink on tour, you have to re-qualify. That simple.

If you want to be a professional basketball player, you have to be better than 97% ( I don't know the exact statistic) of all people that touch a basketball at any level. And you have to continue at that level as long as someone will sign you to a contract.

Now, if it is just a game, or a pastime, or a hobby, who cares? Let everyone go pro. Heck, maybe I will decide to go pro at the Memorial next year. How much would those poor dudes on my card love to watch me shoot an 869 rated round,cussin and whining the whole way? I am sure Dion, Nate, or Feldberg would just think it was a hoot to watch me throw three shots into the pond on #1. Then throw OB on #2 and 3 putt from 40 feet. Yeah, I bet they would be totally cool with that. Come to think of it, the guys I play with now don't really care much for it and they are not the elite in this game. But they are damn good fellas to share a day of walking in the woods and throwing plastic stuff at trees with.

Just a thought.......

[keith_shupp]

Smobro Some of the things you are talking about make good sense but this sport is not ready for that level or money yet. we still have more baby steps to go before we can start setting playing level standards. Also to get the big dollars from sponsor and to be on TV you have to take on the big monster in the room and that is the Drug's. I hate to say this and I know some people will hate to hear this but you need drug testing and standards that would make the the sport more professional.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Smobro Some of the things you are talking about make good sense but this sport is not ready for that level or money yet. we still have more baby steps to go before we can start setting playing level standards. Also to get the big dollars from sponsor and to be on TV you have to take on the big monster in the room and that is the Drug's. I hate to say this and I know some people will hate to hear this but you need drug testing and standards that would make the the sport more professional[

NOW you and I are on the same page. :rockon:To get to THAT level this is going to have to happen. Maybe we don't like it, but it is inevitable.

Bob

[Ol' Bob]

And of course, no one wants this to become a discussion about drug laws.

Isn't it amazing how the corporate voice controls public thought?

[smobro]

And of course, no one wants this to become a discussion about drug laws.

Isn't it amazing how the corporate voice controls public thought?

Interlude

Whats up Bob? Thanks for kicking our butts yesterday. you were a great guide and I can't wait to get back to the Mud. I will try to give you some competition this time.

[smobro]

Smobro Some of the things you are talking about make good sense but this sport is not ready for that level or money yet. we still have more baby steps to go before we can start setting playing level standards. Also to get the big dollars from sponsor and to be on TV you have to take on the big monster in the room and that is the Drug's. I hate to say this and I know some people will hate to hear this but you need drug testing and standards that would make the the sport more professional.

There is no monster in the room. A player is not allowed to do illegal drugs or use alcohol during the round in a sanctioned PDGA event. There is no argument there. The sanctioning body of the sport makes the rules. If a person does not want to play by those rules then they are welcome to play non-PDGA events.

I know lots of pros who are exemplary, follow the rules, and would take Disc Golf seriously as a career. TV, big sponsorships and peer pressure would quickly weed (no pun intended) out the rule breakers.

And, if the prize money and endorsements were bigger, we would see athletes in other sports start to cross over. Imagine how far a guy like Andy Roddick could throw a disc if they were pros? My gosh, the talent pool would be rediculous and the game would change dramatically. Guys would be doing things unthinkable to todays standards. I love to see any sport change and get to the next level. Look what happened with MJ and basketball, Tiger and Golf, Federer and tennis, Usain Bolt and sprinting, etc.

Think big. Dream bigger.

[Scott]

I am sure Dion, Nate, or Feldberg would just think it was a hoot to watch me throw three shots into the pond on #1. Then throw OB on #2 and 3 putt from 40 feet. Yeah, I bet they would be totally cool with that. Come to think of it, the guys I play with now don't really care much for it and they are not the elite in this game.

Actually, I'm suprisingly OK with that. Feel free to throw OB and into water as often as you like when we play. Three putt the day away; just be sure to bring your tag first.

[keith_shupp]

There is no monster in the room. A player is not allowed to do illegal drugs or use alcohol during the round in a sanctioned PDGA event. There is no argument there. The sanctioning body of the sport makes the rules. If a person does not want to play by those rules then they are welcome to play non-PDGA events.

I know lots of pros who are exemplary, follow the rules, and would take Disc Golf seriously as a career. TV, big sponsorships and peer pressure would quickly weed (no pun intended) out the rule breakers.

And, if the prize money and endorsements were bigger, we would see athletes in other sports start to cross over. Imagine how far a guy like Andy Roddick could throw a disc if they were pros? My gosh, the talent pool would be rediculous and the game would change dramatically. Guys would be doing things unthinkable to todays standards. I love to see any sport change and get to the next level. Look what happened with MJ and basketball, Tiger and Golf, Federer and tennis, Usain Bolt and sprinting, etc.

Think big. Dream bigger.

Yes the rules are in place but there is no drug testing that is what some sponsor look for is the proof that players are not on drugs all pro sports do this.even the PGA test am players and with the rep disc golf has that would be the next best thing they could do to prove disc golf is on the right path.

College has started disc golf teams and in 5 to 10 years you will see better and more talented players picking up the sport but to think that you could get Tiger woods level players to switch sports is about 20 to 30 more years. It has taken disc golf 30+ years to get to where were at now. But your right its good to think big and dream bigger.

[smobro]

Actually, I'm suprisingly OK with that. Feel free to throw OB and into water as often as you like when we play. Three putt the day away; just be sure to bring your tag first.

:nahnah:

[Magilla]

Unless something cahnged and I wasnt aware of it...quite a few years ago the PDGA became a "Signatory Member" of the WADA (World Anti-doping Agency)
ALL of the Disc Golfers that played at the World Games in Japan were tested.
:cheers:

I have seen FAR to many sponsors AND their $ go away after taking a stroll thru the parking lot of an event at Lunch break. :headbang:

:cheers:

[keith_shupp]

Unless something cahnged and I wasnt aware of it...quite a few years ago the PDGA became a "Signatory Member" of the WADA (World Anti-doping Agency)
ALL of the Disc Golfers that played at the World Games in Japan were tested.
:cheers:

I have seen FAR to many sponsors AND their $ go away after taking a stroll thru the parking lot of an event at Lunch break. :headbang:

:cheers:

I have lost sponsor too and this has happen here in Oregon a few times. I know a sponsor that was at the Beaver state fling two years ago that showed up with his boss and they walk around during break and took pictures. They showed them to me the following week and sure info there were players smoking out in the open in groups. They also took a picture of someone selling glass pipes. Some of the players in the picture were people I know and I wont say names or the sponsor name. This sponsor was sponsoring the super tour they had pictures from other states just not Oregon. I told them this is not all players and its against the rules and there first question do they drug test the players and I said no and then they said this is not a good sport for us to sponsor any more. That Hurt because they gave thousands of dollars and could of become alot more the next year.

[Magilla]

They also took a picture of someone selling glass pipes.

That would be , Glass "Art"...and completely legal in MOST states...until its used for illegal purposes.

:cheers:

[LJ Jubner]

So whats this thread really about Am's playing pro or the short comings of both DG and it's possible sponsors.

It seems to me that there are two sides to this The competition during the round and the socialization between rounds. I can tell you I pick up more beer cans than any three other things combined. Maybe we should go after NormL as a sponsor at least we (some of us) already support their agenda.

[keith_shupp]

That would be , Glass "Art"...and completely legal in MOST states...until its used for illegal purposes.

:cheers:

I know its legal here in oregon but to a sponsor what do you think they thought after seeing the smoking going on too.

[keith_shupp]

So whats this thread really about Am's playing pro or the short comings of both DG and it's possible sponsors.

It seems to me that there are two sides to this The competition during the round and the socialization between rounds. I can tell you I pick up more beer cans than any three other things combined. Maybe we should go after NormL as a sponsor at least we (some of us) already support their agenda.

Washington needs a 5 cent deposit law on beer cans and bottle Jub because when I lived up there they were all over the place just walk down I-5 and see all the cans even the side streets up there you can find them. Oregon helps people make a living cleaning up our roads and parks.

We are talking about what will help make the sport better and to get good sponsors. I know were off track of the topic I started but this is another issue that needs to come out and be adressed. Im tired of hearing from friends and other people I play disc golf and the first thing they say oh the smoking sport.

[Ol' Bob]

Well, why don't we all just light up a cigarette, chug an energy drink and chill for a bit? Anyone got some chocolate? Did you know that dairy contains endorphins and opioid peptides? We go where the politics tell us to. Everyone is ready to judge and draw their own lines. So, it comes down in small part to our experience, and in large part to our influences. Something to think about, is all.

As ever, most of the ill effects of certain discussed substances are resultant of prohibitions, legal and social. Ask, "who benefits?" There will be the underlying forces who care what you think for what it will gain them.

[Ol' Bob]

...be careful though Ol' Bob, consuming the glandular secretions of other mammals may have side-effects...

Obesity? Diabetes? Every Body Needs Milk, don't they?

Hey, can we have back those billboards with the thirteen year old girls in scant clothing? C'mon, dairy industry, daddy needs his little pick-me-up. Joe Camel misses it too. Maybe they'll sponsor disc golf? That's if disc golf is ready enough to go whoring around, and they sure look ready to me.

[Kenny B]

…We have way to many am divisions and not enough people moving to pro level that is one thing that I would like to see change.

...and to get some players back that wont play the big events with am's.

... Alot of pro players wont play these big events any more because of the am field. why should we pay higher fee's then have to play with huge am fields.

...now we have a division for everything am and when you play events you have very few pro's signed up and its because of many reasons.



I'm curious to know specifically why some pros don't like playing tournaments with ams. Is it too crowded? Too slow? Are Ams annoying and distracting? Is it just a money thing?

Any comments anyone?

[keith_shupp]

I'm curious to know specifically why some pros don't like playing tournaments with ams. Is it too crowded? Too slow? Are Ams annoying and distracting? Is it just a money thing?

Any comments anyone?

Kenney there are many reason but the most I here it's more crowed and a slower pace.

[Kenny B]

Kenney there are many reason but the most I here it's more crowed and a slower pace.

I imagine that concern is shared by most players. The most common solution I've seen for that is added temporary holes, which I don't care for because it just makes each round that much longer. I would like to see two things happen to make tournaments better for all. Multiple course tournaments like are done for BSF and Ft. Steily (to keep groups to a max of 4) and weekend tournaments at one course where one day is the Am tourney and one day is the Pro tourney.

Back to your original topic for a bit, I think an invitation only tournament is what you're looking for. You won't be able to keep us Ams out otherwise :)

Let's all make sure to remember that too many players (including ams) is a blessing, not a curse.

[smobro]

number one reason that I love the BSF- Getting to see the pros play after my round each day. That is the highlight of my disc golf summer. How will I ever get to see these guys and gals play if we don't have them on the same course I am playing and on the same weekend? Asking my family to be ok with me playing one weekend and going to watch the pros the next weekend is probably more than I should ask.
I like the idea of Pro-Ams or Pro only events that allow for me to become a spectator on the same day I play my round instead of having to drive like a bat out of hell to another course to watch them after my round is finished.
I am down with Pro only events, but I wouldn't go watch most likely if some of the elites weren't playing.
I might volunteer to caddy though. Now there is an idea. How about if we have a pro only event, and there is some kind of incentive for experienced ams to caddy. I would do that in a heart beat. Thats just free lessons in my book. Maybe the caddies have a cash pool going or someting like that. HMMMMMM.................

[Tim]

The split weekend pro/am tourney Kenny talked about in the preceding post would facilitate just that. And, pros (who weren't too full of themselves) could also caddy for ams.

[DexterHawk]

I love caddying!!!

[snap7times]

Great, I was just about to start looking for a caddy for 2010 BSF, thanks Hawk for volunteering...

[Mike G]

NOW you and I are on the same page. :rockon:To get to THAT level this is going to have to happen. Maybe we don't like it, but it is inevitable.

Bob
Now I'm no longer with Over the Hill Bob--I'm switching my allegiance to Ol Bob and his free thinking ways ( I do reserve the luxury of rooting for one particular bully though)
As John Galbraith once said "We are becoming the servants in thought, as in action of the machines we have created to serve us." Just substitute corporations for machines and you'll get what passes for "thoughts" these days.
Just remember, once you "grow" the sport--some real athletes will start playing and most of us will never see a piece a scrip or a dollar payout for the rest of our lives.
Mike G

[Scott]

Just remember, once you "grow" the sport--some real athletes will start playing and most of us will never see a piece a scrip or a dollar payout for the rest of our lives.
Mike G
Like most of us are getting rich off the sport anyway. Is that why we play? Not for me. It's a true love of the game.

[citizens arrest]

Well I wanted to put in my 2cent's. I have played this sport for about 5yrs. with a 23yr layoff, my first event when I came back to play was the 04 bsf. I am a very competitive person by nature as I think most people that play tourny's are as well, I will be 52 this april and have the mind of a 25yr old and the body of a 50yr old, it is not easy competing with the 39 to 49 yr olds with one good knee, but I still can walk so I try to make as many events as I can each year it's my way of getting away from the business and hanging out with some really good people and great friends. I get ribbed about being a sandbagger, but I also know that it's all in good fun ( I hope:chinscratch:) we just played the WO and they had the pro's at one course and the am's at another which made for a bigger field, but on the flip side I didn't see any of the pro's the whole weekend. I know for myself I'm distance challenged so I do like to see the young guy's throw and play from places on the course I only dream about. I don't think it should matter to anyone if an am wants to play in any event they so choose and seperating people by their ability or lack of is just a way of telling someone there not good enough for that event, and I guess that's why this sport is where it is today. maybe if I can get the super secret scociety up and runinnig the great northwest, I can run some tourny's where no one shows up because there so secret nobody knows when or where they will be held:whistler: