Courtesy Violations...

[snap7times]

Quote:
Originally Posted by snap7times
...the other guy who had tons of courtesy violation issues which we were nice enough not to stroke him at all *kabza was more bothered by this since he saw the worse violation of them all*...

I'm curious about what the courtesy violations were and why you decided not to call them. For another thread, perhaps....

Now, since someone asked... i'll answer, I won't mention who it was cuz you can see for yourself on the tournament results and I invite both Kabza's to add to anything I missed cuz of course I miss things; especially with the other people on the card chanting "miss, miss, miss" and think I can't hear that heh...

ok... From what I know and saw from the 3rd round alone.
1. Very first hole - hole 11, guy picked up his upshot about 8 feet away and didn't putt out. *I didn't see him do this because I was putting down my bag over to the side near 12 tee and I was the closest to the pin so I was going last after everyone putt out, but I did see him make the upshot and know where the disc was, it was not a "automatic" putt, and when i looked back up he was already walking towards tee 12* (Kabza informed me after everything was over for the tournament that he had indeed gave him a verbal warning, which I didn't know and wasn't even sure that he did in deed did not putt out)
so that was the worse of them all, not even finishing a hole.
2. Not using a marker for almost all of his shots. I had to give him one of my mini's with like 4 holes left when I finally realized he wasn't using a mini at all.
*I later learned that another guy had given him a mini earlier which the miniless guy lost on the very next hole*
3. Anything under 20 feet, he just picked up the disc and putt out with nothing marking his lie.
4. On the very last hole, the famous hole 10 that tied everything up, the guy was supposed to tee off 3rd, but he just got up there and hurled his tee shot up the hill first. This confused me and before I could confirm that he had tee'd off way out of order, the whole group had tee'd off except me, but at the time, I was thinking I had a 1 stroke lead and was going to par this for the win heh... but the park job during sudden death made the whole tournament way better so...

In a way we should have been more anal with him, but at the same time, the guy's friends should have taught him the basics instead of us educating him on every little couresty of the game etc... It's easy to talk smack should have, would have, could have, but when the time comes, not alot of people speak up at the right time. Now if I would have known that Kabza did give him a verbal warning on the first hole and that he had been given a mini in the 2nd round and lost it, then I probably would have spoken up immediately... oh well...

[JMan]

What about a time violation? I heard tell of a guy who walked every shot...waited for his turn to throw, then walked almost to the basket, then back to his disc, then he made his shot...on every shot. Isn't there, by pdga rule, a time frame you must make your shot? Is it long enough for a player to walk every shot before throwing? Now I don't throw tourneys, not many anyway, but that would drive me crazy if it were allowed.

[Scott]

What about a time violation? I heard tell of a guy who walked every shot...waited for his turn to throw, then walked almost to the basket, then back to his disc, then he made his shot...on every shot. Isn't there, by pdga rule, a time frame you must make your shot? Is it long enough for a player to walk every shot before throwing? Now I don't throw tourneys, not many anyway, but that would drive me crazy if it were allowed.

30 seconds

[JMan]

Well the gentleman that I heard of was way out of line...

[Scott]

Well the gentleman that I heard of was way out of line...
So were the people on the card who didn't call him on it.

801.03 Excessive Time
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:

The previous player has thrown; and,
The player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
The playing area is clear and free of distractions.


B. A player shall receive a warning for the first excessive time violation if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official.

[Scott]

Whoa.. Those aren't courtesy violations.
1. Very first hole - hole 11, guy picked up his upshot about 8 feet away and didn't putt out. *I didn't see him do this because I was putting down my bag over to the side near 12 tee and I was the closest to the pin so I was going last after everyone putt out, but I did see him make the upshot and know where the disc was, it was not a "automatic" putt, and when i looked back up he was already walking towards tee 12* (Kabza informed me after everything was over for the tournament that he had indeed gave him a verbal warning, which I didn't know and wasn't even sure that he did in deed did not putt out)
so that was the worse of them all, not even finishing a hole.

803.13 Holing Out
A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(1) Holes missed due to late arrival may be scored and penalized according to section 804.02.
(2) Inadvertently failing to hole out (as determined by a majority of the group or an official) shall result in 2 penalty throws being added to the number of throws plus penalty throws already taken on the hole. The hole shall then be considered completed.
(3) Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as "Did Not Finish" on the scorecard and in the event results.

2. Not using a marker for almost all of his shots. I had to give him one of my mini's with like 4 holes left when I finally realized he wasn't using a mini at all.
*I later learned that another guy had given him a mini earlier which the miniless guy lost on the very next hole*

803.03 Marking the Lie
G. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a marking rule if observed by
two or more players of the group or an official. One penalty throw shall be assessed for each
subsequent violation of any marking rule during the round if observed by two or more players of
the group or an official.

3. Anything under 20 feet, he just picked up the disc and putt out with nothing marking his lie.

See above

4. On the very last hole, the famous hole 10 that tied everything up, the guy was supposed to tee off 3rd, but he just got up there and hurled his tee shot up the hill first. This confused me and before I could confirm that he had tee'd off way out of order

Ok... this one was an actual courtesy violation. Warning the first time, penalty stroke every time after that.

801.02 Order of Play

B. Teeing order on all subsequent tees is determined by the
scores on the previous hole, with the lowest score throwing first, and
so on. If the previous hole was a tie, the scores are to be counted
back until the order is resolved.

E. Throwing out of turn shall be considered a courtesy violation. See 801.01G.


If properly handled, your round never would have gone to a playoff. This guy should have been penalized at least two strokes (not holing out) and possibly more if he chose not to heed warnings regarding the marking of his lie (which it sounds like he did not). Sure, it worked out OK for you, but it might not have. Nate and Matt have caused to be a little miffed - this dude ending up beating Nate by one and Matt by two. :angry:

[Jim J]

Nathan:

Did you split the scrip for first place as listed in the results on the PDGA website?

If so, we need to rectify the error since (according to the PDGA competition manual):

1.9 Tiebreakers: C. First place cash/prize must be awarded to the division winner and listed in the event results. Cash or prizes may not be evenly split between any players tied for 1st place.

This happened to the PGMs too, and that's been untangled, but I didn't notice it in Intermediate (until now).

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Not holing out.....
Not marking lie......
Throwing out of turn......

If it wasn't called it didn't happen and nobody has a bitch! Period! :cop:

Bob

[johnny lamotte]

i agree with bob!!

[snap7times]

What about a time violation? I heard tell of a guy who walked every shot...waited for his turn to throw, then walked almost to the basket, then back to his disc, then he made his shot...on every shot. Isn't there, by pdga rule, a time frame you must make your shot? Is it long enough for a player to walk every shot before throwing? Now I don't throw tourneys, not many anyway, but that would drive me crazy if it were allowed.

Lol... I hope that is me that you are talking about but I only do that when I'm like 50-60 feet or less from the basket... now I don't want any pity, but when you are both Deaf and have some life long depth perception vision issues, sometimes you need to reassure the measurement through walking it, and if I walked all the way to the basket, it was to measure the 10m. But ironically, since I made the least amount of shots, therefore I saved time there heh... But never do I walk on teeshots or over like 100 feet etc. Since you said it was every shot then it was definitely not me heh. But the guys in my group did finally confront me on this after the tournament and I told him since we were not part of any kind of back-up, I didn't feel the need to hurry but if they would have mentioned it, I would have done a few seconds faster heh...

As for calling the guy on it, you ever risk being the handicapped guy calling people on every violation? I don't need any more sterotyping on me heh and I had no idea how the other 2 guys felt until afterwards, and I was never going to talk about it but someone asked so I think we can all learn from this situation and be better educated next time it happens. And I agree about the Kabza's being miffed, that why they finally told me all the violations that I didn't see after the round was over so...

I have yet to get my script so that is good news, however I am sure the other guy has collected on his extra script heh.

[Ol' Bob]

If everyone wore sidearms, everyone would be more courteous.

[Caba sab Lucas]

Snap, the Kabza's were not miffed at all with your play. You did great and deserved the win. When we all move up we won't be having this conversation ;) See ya next year.

The guy you tied with should have had 38 extra strokes added to his score. HAHA!

No playoff was needed:)

[Scott]

If everyone wore sidearms, everyone would be more courteous.

Or more dead.

[DexterHawk]

I wish we all would call more penalties and stop worrying so much about people thinking we're mean. Why have rules if we aren't going to enforce them?

[snap7times]

heh, i'll one up you dexterhawk... I wish players would stop trying to circumvent the rules putting other players in the tough position of having to decide if they should call it or not...

[gwillim]

I wish we all would call more penalties and stop worrying so much about people thinking we're mean. Why have rules if we aren't going to enforce them?

Andy,

Any time you see me violate a rule, you have my permission to call it on me. I won't get mad.

Sincerely,
Gwillim

[jevon]

heh, i'll one up you dexterhawk... I wish players would stop trying to circumvent the rules putting other players in the tough position of having to decide if they should call it or not...

Sounds like he didn't know the rules or didn't care. The only way to teach him is to call him on it. As it stands now he will probably do the same thing in his next tournament, having not been penalized for it in the past.

[Scott]

The question comes down to why we don't call someone for violations. For me, I guess it's just a case of being chicken, a wish to avoid confrontation during the round, and not wanting to be known as the "rules nazi".

It's BS. I get pissed when someone breaks a rule. Why should they get to play by their own rules but I don't? I always promise myself that in my next round I'll call anything I see but when the time comes I end up swallowing my whistle. :angry:

[emmarose]

I'm hoping to play in the Hope Open at the end of this month... it will be my first tournament... and I hope (oops, punny punny hehe) that if I do anything uncouth I will be immediately told, and I will completely accept whatever penalty goes along with the violation (I'm a little concerned about the 30 second thing, but I'm practicing during my cas rounds)... also, I know it's my responsibility to know the rules of tournament play... so again, please calll me out and I'll be studying up.

this whole situation sounds super bogus and I'm sorry for the people involved that it happened... I think it's time to get brave, not worry about being a rules nazi ;) and maybe even sometimes the people will actually be gratefully to you for teaching them (maybe).

peace threw disc golf,
emmarose

[Ol' Bob]

I end up swallowing my whistle.How's passing the whistle?

I play lots of casual rounds with lots of people. I play very few tournaments so it's hard for me to make the transition. Most times, groups who come here have their own standards for what's chickenshamwow. I play with them but follow my own standard. Some of our tournament rules are in place and some aren't during casual play. I tell the group what they are and they accept or reject as they choose.

Minis drive me nutz. I always walk off without them. I've been cut slack in tournament play on minis by the group. I've appreciated that. I place my bag such that my mini pocket, with a mini in it, is where the mini would be placed, but the PDGA says nothing can be there except a mini. If my bag won't sit that way without rolling over, then I use the mini alone. What purpose does that rule serve? It's certainly not discourteous. Most would realize that is a violation that a "rule Nazi" would call.

One time Jub called me for kicking my bag. It's a rule, all right. I had placed my bag behind me when putting and I sometimes kick my left foot backwards when I putt with my right hand. I accidentally kicked my bag and Jub caught it. It turned out the rule was made for kicking your bag in anger and Jub was doing a pretty good job of pulling my leg. It just shows that the potential for chickenshamwow exists, and we all know it. I know I don't want to play in a tournament with any rule Nazi.

There are certainly lines that can be crossed. We just have to find them for the game to remain enjoyable.


Over the line!
http://userwww.sfsu.edu/%7Egschroed/AC_Slater/pictures/th_bckgrnd_walter.jpg

[LegoRules]

I'm hoping to play in the Hope Open at the end of this month... it will be my first tournament... and I hope (oops, punny punny hehe) that if I do anything uncouth I will be immediately told, and I will completely accept whatever penalty goes along with the violation (I'm a little concerned about the 30 second thing, but I'm practicing during my cas rounds)... also, I know it's my responsibility to know the rules of tournament play... so again, please calll me out and I'll be studying up.

this whole situation sounds super bogus and I'm sorry for the people involved that it happened... I think it's time to get brave, not worry about being a rules nazi ;) and maybe even sometimes the people will actually be gratefully to you for teaching them (maybe).

peace threw disc golf,
emmarose

Hey Emma if you play advanced those girls are super cool, and normally if there is a violation you will get a warning first. You will be fine don't stress over it too much. Really hope you guys are able to play.

Cindy :)

[REDFIVE]

You don't need to enforce the rules if you don't want to, you can inform of them instead. I have never called anyone on a rules violation but I have let people know that they could be called for something. If you don't want to be a rules nazi don't punish just teach. I haven't seen anything as drastic as these violations and I would have called some of these for sure. I try to say something when everyone in the group is around so we can discuss and it isn't just me being the bad guy it is everyone having a group discussion. Rules are there for a reason if someone can't abide by them then tournament golf is not for them. Call if needed, but do it to help the other player by givingthem some knowledge of proper golf guidelines.

[Scott]

Actually, you do not have to use a mini, unless you are marking a lie after coming in from OB. You are more than welcome to simply play behind your previously thrown disc and pick it up when done.

[DexterHawk]

but you can't pick that same disc up and throw it again unless you mark it.

[Uhlman]

play behind your previously thrown disc and pick it up when done.

I havent played in a touniment and i dont have a mini so that is what I usualy do, unless I want to use the disk I threw last. Then I mark it with another disk from my bag.

[Scott]

I havent played in a touniment and i dont have a mini so that is what I usualy do, unless I want to use the disk I threw last. Then I mark it with another disk from my bag.

That is fine. However, if you choose to mark the disc, it must be with a mini.

This is only for PDGA tournament play, of course.

[Scott]

but you can't pick that same disc up and throw it again unless you mark it.

Of course.

[Uhlman]

That is fine. However, if you choose to mark the disc, it must be with a mini.

This is only for PDGA tournament play, of course.

Of course. does any one know where you can buy minis?

[Scott]

Of course. does any one know where you can buy minis?

Any online retailer should have them.

Usually you can find them from between $1-$5.

[Scott]

Of course. does any one know where you can buy minis?

http://www.discgolfcenter.com/main_displayProductList.php?s=4&type=7&anum=34

[snap7times]

and mini's are usually in player packages at tournaments... I have like 50 by now heh... and have given at least 10 away to other players...

[Adam Schneider]

I have 2 or 3 of them that were included in orders from PrimeDiscs.com or MarshallStreetDiscGolf.com.

[emmarose]

Hey Emma if you play advanced those girls are super cool, and normally if there is a violation you will get a warning first. You will be fine don't stress over it too much. Really hope you guys are able to play.

Cindy :)

Not stressed at all cause I know I'll be playing with totally rad, super friendly chicks like you, amiga! :biggrin2:

[erp]

I've got one you can have if you're going to be in Portland any time soon...

Of course. does any one know where you can buy minis?

[Uhlman]

I've got one you can have if you're going to be in Portland any time soon...

I will probly be at the Boy Scout event at Horning's... That's still up in the air though.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

I just got my order from GottaGoGottaThrow this morning of 20 Halloween mini's to be given out at the Hope Open. :cheers:

As for violations.........I have never HAD to say anything to a veteran tournament player as those that I have played with are pretty familiar with the rules. There HAVE been times that I have played with newer tournament players and when I have noticed that they have a bad practice of doing something that they CAN be called for, and knowing that if they keep doing it they WILL get called for it, I will, as we're walking to our next hole, politely tell them that they are doing something wrong. I'll then add that I am not trying to be a jerk but don't want to see them have to take a stroke when they can avoid it. NOW, if they paid no attention and kept doing it, I WOULD warn them, officially. I don't have a problem with that at all. If it is a player that is more experienced and one that does know the rules and ignores them, I don't have a problem being the one to warn them either. The good news is that I play Advanced Masters and you don't see BS infractions in tournament play. Or I haven't seen it!

Bob

[emmarose]

Yay :yay: for social problem solving OTH Bob and Redfive!! Either you guys went to preschool or are just naturally level headed and compassionate dudes! ;)

peace threw disc golf,
emmarose