Sah-Hah-Lee Golf Course

[Sam]

I heard from Jeff Elliot that this ball golf course on highway 212/224 between Oregon City and Estacada is putting in two 18 hole DG courses.

Anyone else hear anything about this? Apparently they were at last week's Stumptown meeting and have discussed this extensively with Brian from Next Adventure.

Sounds very promising. :cheers:

[Adam Schneider]

Curious lack of a "Find Us" link on their Web site: http://www.sah-hah-lee.com/

So here's a map: http://maps.google.com/maps?oi=map&q=45.398361%2C-122.529458%20%28Sah-Hah-Lee%29


It'd be truly awesome if they had some unused forested land around the edges that they could make into a DG course. But, looking at the aerial photo, it looks like they'd have to put it on the ball golf course. While it'd be nice to finally get SOMETHING in Northern Clackamas County, I'm underwhelmed by this possibility. The good news is, it's a par-3 "executive" course, which is certainly better suited to a disc golf overlay than a big course.

[rob smith]

I heard from Jeff Elliot that this ball golf course on highway 212/224 between Oregon City and Estacada is putting in two 18 hole DG courses.

Anyone else hear anything about this? Apparently they were at last week's Stumptown meeting and have discussed this extensively with Brian from Next Adventure.

Sounds very promising. :cheers:

SWEET thats 10 minutes from my house if that!!!!!

[TreeLove]

A big ball golf course does not make for a good disc golf course? Explain....

Oakway sure was a lot of fun....

[SMOKIN JOE]

the last time I heard about it they were going charge the same rate as golf
and got no solid response
maybe seing Bob work has them on another try
course would have to pretty amazing to pay 15.00 bones to play

["Over the Hill" Bob]

I heard from Jeff Elliot that this ball golf course on highway 212/224 between Oregon City and Estacada is putting in two 18 hole DG courses.

Anyone else hear anything about this? Apparently they were at last week's Stumptown meeting and have discussed this extensively with Brian from Next Adventure.

Sounds very promising. :cheers:

They were NOT at last weeks Stumptown meeting. I have heard nothing about this.

Bob

[Adam Schneider]

Oakway sure was a lot of fun....
I thought Oakway didn't sound like any fun at all. Seriously. Too open and definitely too long. Neither I nor any of my friends ever had any desire to go down there.

[hyzer_sosa]

subscribed.
This is great news for the Milwaukie/Gladstone/Oregon City folks.:)

[jevon]

I used to play there, back when I swung the sticks. If they do it right it could be a real nice course or two.

[Ms Thing]

Skyline has done a great job of combining ball and disc golf on one course with very little interferance between the two.

[Scott]

What was the final answer on why disc golf was pulled from Oakway?

[TreeLove]

I am afraid that if you never even played Oakway; that you are not qualified to speculate on what does and does not make a ball golf course good for disc golf! I can list many more players than "you and your friends" that enjoyed Oakway IMMENSELY!

[Adam Schneider]

I am afraid that if you never even played Oakway; that you are not qualified to speculate on what does and does not make a ball golf course good for disc golf! I can list many more players than "you and your friends" that enjoyed Oakway IMMENSELY!
I'm sure they did. But we don't like spending significant money to play wide-open courses with multiple 500'+ holes. Honestly, I don't really enjoy McIver more than once or twice a year either.

Geez, obviously this is all 100% in the realm of opinion. :rolleyes2:


However, I do think it should be pointed out that the relatively small number of players who can really appreciate a pay-for-play massively long disc golf course just might not be enough to sustain the idea economically -- if it interferes with the ball-golf business, that is.

[Vector_2008]

Not sure how pay to play will work there.
They want $7 just to play the miniature 18 hole golf course.
18 Hole Putting Course (http://www.sah-hah-lee.com/sah-hah-lee/content
/view_c.php?s_id=1618420)

[jevon]

They want $7 just to play the miniature 18 hole golf course.

That is pretty much the going rate for putt putt these days.

[Ol' Bob]

So, can what it was about Oakway that was so good be put into disc golf terms? Just curious.

[Susie Sunshine]

I'm intrigued. Once in a while, Eric and I will play a round of ball golf at Sah-hah-Lee and then head out to Timber. Makes for a fun day. It's a beautiful course and I think disc golf would be a nice addition if they do it well. I'd sure check it out.

We love Skyline - just wish it weren't such a long drive. Having something like it 15 minutes from our house would be pretty damn sweet.

[TreeLove]

However, I do think it should be pointed out that the relatively small number of players who can really appreciate a pay-for-play massively long disc golf course just might not be enough to sustain the idea economically -- if it interferes with the ball-golf business, that is.

Where are you getting your numbers? For one, Oakway was not "massively long". For two, how do you know there are not hordes of disc golfers dying to pay to play on longer, more manicured courses? And when done properly, disc golf need not reduce a ball golf course's business, it can INCREASE their business.

[TreeLove]

Honestly, I don't really enjoy McIver...

OK, now I think you have truly lost everyone. It's going to be a tough case for you after a qualification like that....

[SMOKIN JOE]

I enjoyed oakway
but would not have payed ball golf prices to play there though
great tournament layout
if i'm going to pay the price then i will play ball golf
too bad you couldn't both at the same time for the price of one
the owner of the golf course right out of town had ideas untill he talked to me
i told him that i thought very few people would pay 15.00 to 20.00 bones to play when we have so many great free courses:cheers:

[Adam Schneider]

Where are you getting your numbers? For one, Oakway was not "massively long". For two, how do you know there are not hordes of disc golfers dying to pay to play on longer, more manicured courses? And when done properly, disc golf need not reduce a ball golf course's business, it can INCREASE their business.
Right, which is why I said it could be a problem only if the numbers aren't there AND it interferes with the ball-golf. If having a handful of disc golfers out there alienates the "regulars," they've got a problem. I'm not saying that's how it's going to be, just that they've got to consider it and do it right.

I don't know that there aren't hordes of disc golfers waiting to pay to get in a golf cart and zip around on unnatural, overfertilized fairways. But I do wonder, because a big part of disc golf's allure is the cheapness factor, especially here in The Great Recession. If a carload of people headed down OR-212 can play 18 at Sah-Hah-Lee for $40, or drive 20 minutes further and play 45 at Timber AND McIver for $3, it might be a tough sell.

OK, now I think you have truly lost everyone. It's going to be a tough case for you after a qualification like that....
Not everyone is a pro. For an awful lot of newer players, courses like McIver and Bryant are long and frustrating, and those players would have more fun at Vance or Timber. No, I'm not a newbie myself, but someone's got to point out that the newbies do exist, and probably in bigger numbers than the die-hards in this forum who play in tournaments every weekend and actually go on-line to talk about disc golf. I mean, come on, this borders on fanaticism, what we do here. We're 1-percenters.


Again, I'm just expressing my opinion, and you're basically telling me that it's wrong. That's way more messed up than me thinking Timber is more fun than McIver (and note I said "more fun," not "better").

[TreeLove]

Way to go Terry, I 'm glad you talked him OUT of installing a disc golf course. Thanks for that.

:shooting: :pullhair: :slapface: :headbang:

[TreeLove]

I had better just stop reading this thread; I am going to pop a blood vessel.

Adam, I am just saying I disagree with your opinion, and trying to cite examples of WHY....

Terry, I am simply speechless. Please do not talk to any more ball golf course owners!

[Darr]

I had better just stop reading this thread; I am going to pop a blood vessel.

Adam, I am just saying I disagree with your opinion, and trying to cite examples of WHY....

Terry, I am simply speechless. Please do not talk to any more ball golf course owners!
Oakway was the shizz, sorry you never played it Adam....

The recession is no reason to not play a LONG pair of 18's with carts, beers, and buddies, regardless the cost. We've done it before, we'll do it again. Without Adam and his buddies it seems. :rolleyes2::laughing:

[JMan]

Hey I pay to play:
$10 for my St. Park pass - 12 months (buy in bulk my friends)
$60 to Bob for 12 months at Hornings
$70 not bad, but I wouldn't pay 10 or better for one day, and it wouldn't matter how great the course was, or perceived to be.

[Adam Schneider]

Way to go Terry, I 'm glad you talked him OUT of installing a disc golf course. Thanks for that.
Should he have lied to them?

[Ol' Bob]

I wonder why my question wasn't answered. Hello, do my posts appear here?

[zippyboy]

Wow... this is getting heated...

Gawain, the reputation that Oakway seemed to get was that it was a long, open course. Like Adam, that holds little to no interest to me as a disc golfer. Therefore, in no way was I going to travel down there to pay money to play on a course that did not (on its reputation) appeal to me. Please spare the "but you never actually played it" argument, I am admitting to that. Maybe Oakway was a heavily wooded, not really manicured course with tight fairways, average 275 - 400 ft. holes,and through lots of trees, but that wasn't the impression I was getting from people who played it.

I have also gone on record to say that I don't think Milo deserves all the hype it gets - and I have thrown there (a couple holes with you one day, actually). Lengthy holes just aren't something I look for in a course. Part of the draw of this sport to me is tromping through nature. A ball golf course turned disc golf course doesn't usually fit into the type of course I would most like to throw at. Skyline is an exception to this rule, due to its views of the river from the course, and the great use of elevation changes in the course design.

I don't think Terry did anyone a disservice by being honest regarding pay-to-play. $15 to $20 to play a course is much more money than most disc golfers would be willing to cough up. There are times I've passed on playing Skyline, and they only charge $8 for 18 holes! I think lying to them would have been much worse.

And Bob, I am also curious as to what the big draw of disc golf at Oakway was, too. The only information I ever got about it when it was up and running was that you got to play on a nicely manicured ball golf course (with wide-open fairways, and lengthy holes). Meh.

Good Lord people, go out and throw something! :seeya:

[SMOKIN JOE]

so should I have lied to my friend and told him go ahead spent 10 grand
you'll get it back no time
hell so many people come play in Mac already don't they
using the money to update a few of the greens I thought would make a much better business decision
but hey If you got an extra ten grand we can go talk to him again
i'm sure if someone else foots the bill he would be more than glad too
also he wasn't planning on disc golf being offered in prime time on the weekend either
didn't think to many ball golfers want to rent a cart either, so make it 25.00 bones on the weekend to boot,
so if you think a Monday through Thursday monrning and Friday , because the course is full Thursday afternoon for league, course will pay for it's self then buck up let's get it done
and oh by the way, that is per nine holes of golf as well, not 18
so come spent 50.00 bones on the weekend to play 18 holes of golf
or 30.00 on a regular day,
no I didn't think that would fly to well with the disc golf public:headbang:
people always seem to know something about nothing:cool2:

[SMOKIN JOE]

oh by the way that was his plan too.
my plan for him was to make it 18,27, or 36 holes
make it to were the ball golfers have right of way on the course
charge 10.00 bucks for a day pass and you might just make a profit on it:cool2:

[Scott]

For those that say they are willing to pay $15.00 or more to play - how often?

Yeah, if the course sounds really great I'd probably go give it a try. But it wouldn't be very often. Why pay $15.00 for a round when I could go play Milo all day for free?

[SMOKIN JOE]

exactly:cool2:

[Sam]

What I think we are seeing is the emergence of the putt-putt disc golfers. These are clearly golfers who would rather have a clown's mouth and a windmill rather than the granddaddy of all disc golf courses, Milo. Folks who - when faced with the option of going to Orchard or Milo - will opt for Orchard. We need these people, actually, or we would never have a place to practice our upshots from tee pads so there is some benefit derived from those golfers who see 400' and immediately think par 4.

Yes, Adam and Zippy... I am looking right at you. :)

[Adam Schneider]

Sam, one of my favorite courses is Camp Tadmor. Remind me, which hole there is the one with the clown?

[Ol' Bob]

As long as the only shot that needs to be accurate is the third, long open holes should do fine. No point in having a clown if it's so far out there you can't see him.

Damn, the sun is shining and I'm sittin' here on my putt.

[Sam]

Never been to Camp Tadmor. Kind of why you have never seen me opine on it. :)

You do play a lot of Rockwood/Vance, though, right? Either course could have a clown-mouth on it.

[SMOKIN JOE]

that would be the first hole
when you hit a tree and it rolls back under your car for the second time
that's when you feel like a clown
or maybe the fifth hole when you've thrown all your plastic in the lake and your out there in one of those boats retrieving them
that's when you look like a clown
or maybe hole 7 when you've thrown 3 times and still can't see the basket
maybe then because your wondering if the hole is really up there somewhere

[Adam Schneider]

or maybe the fifth hole when you've thrown all your plastic in the lake and your out there in one of those boats retrieving them
Fifth hole, lake? Which course are you talkin' about??

Never been to Camp Tadmor. Kind of why you have never seen me opine on it. :)
It's similar to Horning's Canyon course, but harder. Like the woods at Hagg Lake, but with real fairways.

You do play a lot of Rockwood/Vance, though, right? Either course could have a clown-mouth on it.
I rarely play Rockwood. I love Vance, but only play there if I'm in Gresham for some other reason. Obviously, it's not a destination course.

[Bullseye]

What I think we are seeing is the emergence of the putt-putt disc golfers. These are clearly golfers who would rather have a clown's mouth and a windmill rather than the granddaddy of all disc golf courses, Milo. Folks who - when faced with the option of going to Orchard or Milo - will opt for Orchard. We need these people, actually, or we would never have a place to practice our upshots from tee pads so there is some benefit derived from those golfers who see 400' and immediately think par 4.

Yes, Adam and Zippy... I am looking right at you. :)


I understand that you guys who prefer pitch and putts courses have every right to enjoy the game as you see fit, however many of us want more challenging courses. I loathe birdie or die courses myself, so of course I prefer longer courses... you know... courses where I can actually use a driver. People need to understand that entry level players should NOT be making birdies left and right. Those birdies should be earned by good play, not by making holes easier.

Yes, I agree that Oakway could have been a better course, but it was still a fun course to play. There were even a few holes out there that were not any better just because they were long. I am not arguing for long courses for the sake of being long, but I love courses where you have to plot the landing zone for your first drive to ensure you have hope for that all-important up shot. I don't think any of my hole-in-one's come anywhere close to the satisfaction I felt when I finally pulled off a 4 on Milo's super long hole in the long position. Three well executed drives left me with a 15 foot putt. That is the kind of golf I love. The bummer is, I can't enjoy short courses very much, but those of you who like the short courses can STILL have fun on the big courses.

PS: I'd be happy to pay $10-$15 (a day) to play on a well maintained course where I don't have to worry about whether the stumbledrunk 10-some playing in front of me is going to let me play through.

[Scott]

PS: I'd be happy to pay $10-$15 (a day) to play on a well maintained course where I don't have to worry about whether the stumbledrunk 10-some playing in front of me is going to let me play through.

How many times a week? And how many of you are there? Those are the questions a course has to ask before setting their prices.

[Adam Schneider]

Bullseye, I'm not saying long courses shouldn't exist... only that they are likely to appeal to a smaller (albeit hardcore) segment of the disc golf community. Especially if they cost real money to play.

The ideal situation, of course, is a longer course with pro and amateur tee pads: everybody wins. (It's really surprising how rare alternate teepads are, when you think about it.)

[Bullseye]

How many times a week? And how many of you are there? Those are the questions a course has to ask before setting their prices.

I'd pay to play a couple times a week in the winter and more in the summer. I have played on ball golf courses several times and I love it, so it's worth it to me. I know a lot of people who would play there as well.

We have plenty of small to medium courses in the area, but only a few grown up courses. I want more of those. :)

[Bullseye]

Bullseye, I'm not saying long courses shouldn't exist... only that they are likely to appeal to a smaller (albeit hardcore) segment of the disc golf community. Especially if they cost real money to play.

The ideal situation, of course, is a longer course with pro and amateur tee pads: everybody wins. (It's really surprising how rare alternate teepads are, when you think about it.)

I agree. The only thing I worry about with 2 sets of pads is the chance of two group teeing off on each other. This doesn't happen that frequently at Milo, where the AM pads are easily visible from the PRO pads, but at Stielly where they have criss-crossing baskets and pads all over the place. If designed properly that is a great solution.

[TreeLove]

Oakway was not "long and open". It had trees, water, elevation, sand, out-of-bounds, and numerous other challenging obstacles. It also had amenities like cold beverages, carts, a restaurant, and more, all of which were part of its value. I would gladly have continued to pay to play there, and I could have easily have brought a full carload every time. And Milo is NOT free.

Par 3 golf gets boring. You either occasionally park your drive, make an occasional long putt, get thousands of threes, and occasionally make a big mistake and take a bogey.

I prefer holes where no one is reaching the green, and instead you must carefully place your tee shot. Not necessarily throw it down a three-foot-wide slot, but place it correctly. That is difficult and challenging, sometimes even more so if there are not rows of trees down both sides.

I like upshots that are long enough that they are tough to execute. I like a long enough holes that you can make a mistake and still recover. It is also nice to be rewarded for a long, accurate throw once in a while. I like courses where a roller, thumber, or other less-conventional shot might be a better choice in certain places than the usual flat shot.

And I just don't see how talking someone OUT of installing disc golf benefits the sport. Maybe you could have helped find ways to SUCCEED with disc golf, instead of simply dissuading him from it? Maybe he could have installed it without spending thousands? Tone poles? Natural tees? Fund raisers? There, I just had 3 ideas in about 2 seconds...

[Sam]

The ideal situation, of course, is a longer course with pro and amateur tee pads: everybody wins. (It's really surprising how rare alternate teepads are, when you think about it.)

Come to think of it... I can only think of one course in the area with pro and am tees.

It's the best course in the state, Adam. You know which one I am talking about... right? :)

[Adam Schneider]

Come to think of it... I can only think of one course in the area with pro and am tees.

It's the best course in the state, Adam. You know which one I am talking about... right? :)
Yup. Lunchtime.

[Adam Schneider]

I agree. The only thing I worry about with 2 sets of pads is the chance of two group teeing off on each other. This doesn't happen that frequently at Milo, where the AM pads are easily visible from the PRO pads, but at Stielly where they have criss-crossing baskets and pads all over the place. If designed properly that is a great solution.
I didn't think the problem at Steilly was amateur pads, but rather a whole bunch of completely different layouts all overlapping one another... right?

[SMOKIN JOE]

we add holes when we play there
I believe after hole three you throw towards the lake
after that you throw across the lake
after that you throw back towards the road
so call it 3b,c,d
apparently you haven't played it with the extra holes up

[Tim]

Uh, where again?

[Adam Schneider]

Smokin' Joe is talking about Tadmor.

[Bullseye]

I didn't think the problem at Steilly was amateur pads, but rather a whole bunch of completely different layouts all overlapping one another... right?

There's a little bit of both problems at Stielly... Its getting better, but its still a mess.

[keith_shupp]

Mt Scott ball golf course was the first in the state to add disc golf at first it was nice to play something harder and longer. Myself I thought it was great but the only draw back was the cost to play it all the time ( not worth it ). The owners were excited at first because people showed up but after a while it slowed down and they were lucky to get 2 a day to play. The owner and ball players did not like the fact that disc golfers would not respect the ball golfers by crossing fairways and yelling out loud and also the pot smoking.

I cant believe how some of you put down other golfers because of what kind of course they like. They are all great and you should be happy to have so many to choose from. Disc golf started from what some of you call pitch and putt because you had small area to design a course in plus the disc technology has changed alot well more than alot because we started with midnight flyers. Pitch and put courses are tight and you use the tree,s for obstacle. Long open courses like Milo and ball courses is about placement of throws. Mountian courses are all about release and speed of disc so I see it as different types of disc golf. Im sure disc golf will go through more changes in years to come. So shut up and be happy any new course is going in the ground if you like it or not.

Sam you should go and play Camp Tadmor it is the hardest 18 hole course in Oregon and they do have some long hole like 17 its about 570ft. You must have all your disc golf skills to kick that courses butt.

[Ol' Bob]

The bummer is, I can't enjoy short courses very much, but those of you who like the short courses can STILL have fun on the big courses.

Funny that this doesn't work both ways.

[Sam]

Yup. Lunchtime.

Can you show me the short pad for 11? Maybe the long pad for 5?

Sorry... but 1/6th of that course has only one pad. Thinking about it, I guess Milo is about the same (2, 3, 15, 16, 17, 18).

[Adam Schneider]

Can you show me the short pad for 11? Maybe the long pad for 5?
Lunchtime #5 does have two pads. Or it did, before the "normal" one got smashed to pieces lately. (What's up with that, does anyone know?)

[Bullseye]

Funny that this doesn't work both ways.

Well, it doesn't work both ways because you simply don't even need a driver on a course with holes shorter than 200 ft. I played Dexter all weekend long and that is a fun course. It has some short holes, and it has some long holes. There are heavily wooded holes and there are a few open bomber holes. The course is good because it has good balance.

[Sam]

Lunchtime #5 does have two pads. Or it did, before the "normal" one got smashed to pieces lately. (What's up with that, does anyone know?)

The church did that. No more long pad on #5, sadly. The neighbors (way over to the right at the end of the fairway) were getting shelled and asked that the church put a stop to it.

[Bluedisc]

Again, I'm just expressing my opinion, and you're basically telling me that it's wrong. That's way more messed up than me thinking Timber is more fun than McIver (and note I said "more fun," not "better").

:slapface: But really, you are wrong...
Your "opinion" of what the majority of discers think couldn't be more off. :nono:

Just start a survey already....

Eliminating opportunities to grow disc golf in any way is "way more messed up." (in my meaningless opinion):seeya:

[Adam Schneider]

Your "opinion" of what the majority of discers think couldn't be more off.
Why do you people get so defensive when someone disagrees with your idea of what makes a great course?

I never said I know what everyone thinks, only that fanatics who would pay $10+ for a round of disc golf are probably NOT a majority of disc golfers in general. Do you really think that's inaccurate? And don't even try to do a "poll" on here, because this forum is far from a representative sample.

[zippyboy]

Oh my God! There are a few of us that would rather play disc golf somewhere other than Milo?!? Perish the thought. Sam, Bullseye, etc., I know that when I think pitch-and-putt courses, Trojan and Lucky Mud are the first two that come to mind. Jesus, what a bunch of freaking elitists! Let me know the next time either of you come out an throw either of those courses at better than 12 down...

Sorry to offend some of the big guns that think its either Milo or Orchard as far as courses go. Not everyone looks for the same experience in disc golf that you two seem to. If you guys have more fun at Milo than any other course, that's swell. I have enjoyed playing at Milo, but, I also enjoy throwing a round at Glenwood - all depends on the day, the weather, where I'm at, and how much I feel like throwing.

Apparently I am not cut out to be a pro disc golfer (though, I'm not sure about you guys, either). Meh. I'm happy when weekends (or the occasional mid-week afternoon) afford me the chance to throw - wherever that may be. Save the smoke for yourselves, and get off the high horse. And as far as the stumbling drunk 10-some, I've never experienced that at the Mud, or Trojan. However, one Friday after Thanksgiving, I did run into one of those groups at Milo. Its where I met Sam and Gawain (and numerous others) for the first time... Hmmm......

Oh, and taking a cue from previous posts, if I put one of these here :) it means nobody should take offense to what I wrote above.

:)

[Bullseye]

Oh my God! There are a few of us that would rather play disc golf somewhere other than Milo?!? Perish the thought. Sam, Bullseye, etc., I know that when I think pitch-and-putt courses, Trojan and Lucky Mud are the first two that come to mind. Jesus, what a bunch of freaking elitists! Let me know the next time either of you come out an throw either of those courses at better than 12 down...

Sorry to offend some of the big guns that think its either Milo or Orchard as far as courses go. Not everyone looks for the same experience in disc golf that you two seem to. If you guys have more fun at Milo than any other course, that's swell. I have enjoyed playing at Milo, but, I also enjoy throwing a round at Glenwood - all depends on the day, the weather, where I'm at, and how much I feel like throwing.

Apparently I am not cut out to be a pro disc golfer (though, I'm not sure about you guys, either). Meh. I'm happy when weekends (or the occasional mid-week afternoon) afford me the chance to throw - wherever that may be. Save the smoke for yourselves, and get off the high horse. And as far as the stumbling drunk 10-some, I've never experienced that at the Mud, or Trojan. However, one Friday after Thanksgiving, I did run into one of those groups at Milo. Its where I met Sam and Gawain (and numerous others) for the first time... Hmmm......

Oh, and taking a cue from previous posts, if I put one of these here :) it means nobody should take offense to what I wrote above.

:)

Zippy,

I think you've clearly gone off the deep end on this one. Read back through my posts and point out to me exactly where I am being "elitist". I just read thru all of my own posts in this thread and I just don't see it.

I respectfully stated that I don't enjoy pitch and putt courses like Orchard... I could expand that list and add Rockwood and Vance, but one thing I would never do is call Trojan a pitch and putt. Its a fairly challenging course with some cool water hazards. Yes, I prefer longer courses, but how is that elitist? I will say that I have not had the pleasure of playing Lucky Mud, but I have heard nothing but good things about it...

Oh, and if you lump me in with Sam again we're going to have a problem. ;)

[zippyboy]

Read back through my posts and point out to me exactly where I am being "elitist". I just read thru all of my own posts in this thread and I just don't see it.

Oh, and if you lump me in with Sam again we're going to have a problem. ;)

Fair enough, sir. I did re-read the posts once more, and you have my apologies. I misread a post in which you had quoted Sam, and mistook that quote as your opinion. I just tire of the piling on the smaller courses that aren't Milo. Because, frankly, that attitude does come across as elitist - intended or not.

I totally understand the draw of a course like Milo. Having 27 holes in one spot is awesome. That being said, I don't have the time (save for maybe once a year) to dedicate to playing a course that large, especially factoring in the drive time from where I'm at. I'm thankful for the smaller courses we have in the northwest - it makes it much easier to throw a round when not long on time.

Again, not everbody looks for the same thing in a course - a look at Hornings is all you need for proof of that. Three fairly different courses from one another, all in the same location. That's the kind of thing I like to see!

Oh, and I will try to never again lump you in with Sam, Bullseye... :)

[Bullseye]

Oh, and I will try to never again lump you in with Sam, Bullseye... :)

Thank Go... err... nevermind.

[Adam Schneider]

Yeah, it's not fair to lump Bullseye in with Sam et al. on this one. He's got a different idea than I do about what makes a fun course, but he's not being condescending about it.

[Sam]

Was I just called condescending? I guess when my opinion is as elevated and enlightened as it is, I can put up with that.

Enjoy your clown-mouth/windmill courses, Adam and Zippy. :)

[Bluedisc]

Blah blah blah.:yawn:

Who cares how many people prefer whatever type of course. It's all about the shear number of courses we have as options--right? So why aren't we encouraging the development of new courses in any form? What if every truck/rest stop had a pitch and putt course and every ball golf course had a long course installed? Ahh nevermind. You people would still find something to argue about...:slapface:

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Just curious but has ANYBODY contacted Sah-Hah-Lee to see if they do have plans to install a course?

Bob

[Bullseye]

Just curious but has ANYBODY contacted Sah-Hah-Lee to see if they do have plans to install a course?

Bob

I know a few people were discussing talking to them about it, but I think it would be wise to let those people handle it. Too many random calls and they might start to reconsider. Just a thought.

[jevon]

I agree. The more people that call the more the golf course thinks that there is interest. We should just let a couple people handle it...

[Joshua Olmsted]

I agree that all types of courses should be encouraged, and I also believe that there isn't a "better" type of course out there. I always tell folks that the best course in Oregon is Milo, but I spend a lot of time out playing Rockwood and Vance, it's where I take new players, it's where I go to practice putting and my short game. I agree that we should take into view the fact that we represent the one percent, many of my casual golfer friends in Portland who I've taken to numerous area courses like Rockwood more than Pier, Dabney or Milo, they just like an overall, more relaxed experience for themselves. I don't agree, but I think their vantage point on the game is valid.

[Sam]

Relaxed and Rockwood. Wow...

[Steve McMahan]

Hey Bob, Yes I did contact Sah-Hah_Lee and yes there are considering putting 18 Baskets along their ball golf course. I am awaiting permission to cut and paste his response. He met with Steve Carson Tuesday night and it's sounds very promising. Possibly night golf?

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Hey Bob, Yes I did contact Sah-Hah_Lee and yes there are considering putting 18 Baskets along their ball golf course. I am awaiting permission to cut and paste his response. He met with Steve Carson Tuesday night and it's sounds very promising. Possibly night golf?

Thanks Steve! So Stumptown was approached, guess the VP isn't in the loop.

Bob

[SMOKIN JOE]

hey Bob that's what Vice means, The Pres uses you when he gets his a** in a vice, if I were planing I think I would find out why it didn't work so well at Oakway seems like it didn't last so long there
but of course I was shot down for being honest to a ball golf course owner
and in our talking that subject came up, I guess I shouldn't have been so honest there either in telling him that it will no doubt bring a situation or two were people would not refrain from smoking out load,
and I know I should have taken an expert with me or maybe got a pre-written speech, but in talking with the owner,(Kit), he said that he has looked into it a couple of times since our last talk about it and still does not see the profit in it yet, did say that if it wasn't his money he would be a lot more willing to get real about it, said discers would still pay the same to play, said 18 may be o.k. , as long as it didn't take longer to play than the ball 9 which is a main issue to him, talking about hornings made him think that might be the way to go, he has a few farms in the area , said one near mollala might be a candidate, didn't like the idea of two courses playing at the same time due to eddicate reasons, so sorry if I did all wrong by talking to a ball golf course owner, looks like if you want one here you'll have to pay for it and then pay to play it, it's $18.00 per nine as well now:chug:

[Sam]

but of course I was shot down for being honest to a ball golf course owner

No... I think you got crap because rather than work with the guy to make it a positive for all, you advised him not to do it at all. That you do not see why disc golfers would have a problem with this is about par for the course, though.

and in our talking that subject came up, I guess I shouldn't have been so honest there either in telling him that it will no doubt bring a situation or two were people would not refrain from smoking out load,

Whoops... Chongian slip there, Terry. Smoking out load? :)

I agree. You shouldn't have mentioned this, either.

and I know I should have taken an expert with me or maybe got a pre-written speech, but in talking with the owner,(Kit), he said that he has looked into it a couple of times since our last talk about it and still does not see the profit in it yet, did say that if it wasn't his money he would be a lot more willing to get real about it, said discers would still pay the same to play, said 18 may be o.k. , as long as it didn't take longer to play than the ball 9 which is a main issue to him, talking about hornings made him think that might be the way to go, he has a few farms in the area , said one near mollala might be a candidate, didn't like the idea of two courses playing at the same time due to eddicate reasons, so sorry if I did all wrong by talking to a ball golf course owner, looks like if you want one here you'll have to pay for it and then pay to play it, it's $18.00 per nine as well now:chug:

Terry... the comma is not your friend here. Let me introduce you to a little friend of mine. He is not much when it comes to punctuation but the role he plays in paragraphs is a vital one.

Here he is now. Right here. For all to see. "."

Learn it. Live it. Love it. Hell. Make. All. Of. Your. Sentences. Like. This. Would. Be. Much. Easier. To. Understand. I. Think. Good. Luck. With. That.

:cheers:

[Adam Schneider]

Hey Bob, that's what "Vice" means: The President uses you when he gets his a** in a vice!

if I were planning, I think I would find out why it didn't work so well at Oakway; seems like it didn't last so long there.

But of course, I was shot down for being honest to a ball golf course owner. And in our talking, another subject came up: I guess I shouldn't have been so honest there either, in telling him that it will no doubt bring a situation or two where people would not refrain from overtly smoking pot.

And I know I should have taken an expert with me or maybe got a pre-written speech, but in talking with the owner (Kit), he said that he has looked into it a couple of times since our last talk about it, and still does not see the profit in it yet. He did say that if it wasn't his money, he would be a lot more willing to get real about it; but he said discers would still pay the same to play. He also said 18 may be okay, as long as it didn't take longer to play than the ball-golf 9 -- which is a main issue to him.

Talking about Horning's made him think that might be the way to go... he has a few farms in the area, and said one near Mollala might be a candidate. He didn't like the idea of two courses playing at the same time due to etiquette reasons.

...So, sorry if I did wrong by talking to a ball golf course owner! Looks like if you want one here, you'll have to pay for it and then pay to play it. It's $18.00 per nine now. :chug:

Huh, that was easier than I thought. Most of the words were there and in proper order...

[Scott]

Terry is always talking about his ancient computer. Perhaps they keyboard doesn't have any punctuation keys.

[SMOKIN JOE]

actually when I'm at work like now it will even punctuation, but I like it this way, it makes people think more:cool2:

[SMOKIN JOE]

apparently your not reading things right again
when someone else comes up with the money, no problem will talk real time
to tell him he'll make PROFIT does not sound like something I would do as a FRIEND, not telling the truth is not my strongpoint, and then to tell him that there would never be a problem with people smoking pot does not seem very honest either, remember he is my FRIEND, and when I told him about the reaction on the forum he was turned off by the attitudes that was given to someone trying to get a course set up, and was very glad that I didn't use our FRIENDSHIP to persude him to do something that would not make a PROFIT and have a possitive impact on his MEMBERS, which I didn't talk about earlier, a lot of older people don't see things the way we do, and most of his MEMBERS or older,
so tell me how I should have went about this again
something about MONEY and PROFIT you don't understand:cool2:

[olydiscgolf]

I know you guys are angry at each other and just getting personal, but I've got an idea! If this golf course owner is or was "seriously" thinking disc golf. Why not suggest a one time tourney on the course. It would give golfers a chance to check out a pay to play course, and give the owner a feel for disc golf on the property.

Ball golf course + Disc Golf = Tree lined, manicured fairway, sandtrap hazard, BLISS!

[SMOKIN JOE]

talked about that already
to reserve the course for a weekend day would take 1500.00 bones
plus we would still have to give way to MEMBERS
good idea though
does anybody understand PROFIT
do you people think I don't want another course here
so if you people really want to help
it's simple, buck up or shut up,
seems like I've done a good job here
don't understand the responses
the owner knows all about disc golf
has for many years, he is my FRIEND,
taught him how to play both styles of golf
obviously he likes ball golf, bought himself a course
not real interested in disc golf,
but as my FRIEND he listens to me and if I can show him a way to make a PROFIT or if someone else wants to spend thier Money
we can do something
so again show me how I should have done this
and sorry again for talking with a ball golf owner

[SMOKIN JOE]

still trying to figure out how I didn't work with the guy
but that's the way this forum works for most
type first think later
only my opinion can be right regardless of fact
simple question to answer
How should I have done it then?

[Scott]

Nobody is saying that the course owner shouldn't make a profit. It does seem unlikely that disc golfers would pay $18.00 per round, but $10.00 /day might bring some in if the course is special. Assuming a modest 10 golfers a day, that is $700 a month. If the initial cost of the course is $20,000, ROI would be achieved in 28 months; less if more golfers pay to play the course, if the pro shop expanded to include discs, or if tournaments were held. Anything after that point would be, as you put it, PROFIT.

I think the reason people are angry is that you did not indicate that you offered the owner any solutions; you merely talked him out of adding a course.

[Tim]

Perhaps a seasonal course would be a possibility. I know most bolf (a term one of my friends coined, and I like it) courses have troubles getting players during the winter, could be a great opportunity for disc golf to be integrated.

The $10 a day thing might be a good compromise, but there'd be issues if the course is packed and you have bolfers signed up for tee times. Also, a course could be relatively inexpensive if just baskets were being bought (~$6000). If the course has cart paths, those could be utilized as tees.

[SMOKIN JOE]

also been talked about
the course floods part of the time
which was something else I mentioned if I owned the property I would try to fix with my extra money
he has tried to buy adjacent properties to try to fix this problem for drainage
no such luck,
so bad weather makes for closed course unfortunately
early morning early in the week is best time to not interfear with MEMBERS
most afternoons and evenings do well,
good idea though
positive suggestions , wow, that's nice
so few and far between

[Scott]

positive suggestions , wow, that's nice
so few and far between
I think that is most everyone's point.

[jevon]

Nobody is saying that the course owner shouldn't make a profit. It does seem unlikely that disc golfers would pay $18.00 per round, but $10.00 /day might bring some in if the course is special. Assuming a modest 10 golfers a day, that is $700 a month. If the initial cost of the course is $20,000, ROI would be achieved in 28 months; less if more golfers pay to play the course, if the pro shop expanded to include discs, or if tournaments were held. Anything after that point would be, as you put it, PROFIT.

Return on investment but what about upkeep and maintenance? Is a bolfer (thanks Tim) going to want to subsidize you? Why should you pay less than him? There is no way that a bolf course can make the same money off of disc golf than they can ball golf. Period. From an economic stand point one would be foolish to turn away someone paying twice as much money or more. The only way it would be feasible is if there was extra land or some way to set it up so that there would be absolutely no interference between the two.

[Scott]

Return on investment but what about upkeep and maintenance? Is a bolfer (thanks Tim) going to want to subsidize you? Why should you pay less than him? There is no way that a bolf course can make the same money off of disc golf than they can ball golf. Period. From an economic stand point one would be foolish to turn away someone paying twice as much money or more. The only way it would be feasible is if there was extra land or some way to set it up so that there would be absolutely no interference between the two.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. Disc golf is being added to ball golf courses all across the country. Look for the number to rise as land becomes more difficult to obtain for new dg courses and as bg course owner try to increase the number of customers that visit their courses. Disc golfers and ball golfers can get along.

Why would there be increased maintenence? The maintenence is already being done.

[SMOKIN JOE]

I didn't talk him out of a course
not being able to show him a PROFIT is the main issue
along with how we would be accepted by the MEMBERS is another
If I weren't his FRIEND this wouldn't even be a subject
he is only talking about it because of me
I would not want to be responsible for a FRIENDS misfortune
again I say someone else put up the MONEY and we can really talk about it
he doesn't see the potential PROFITS
so in responce I guess I would find out more facts before posting things
in reference to me talking to anyone about anything
it's funny how I went from trying to get a course to the guy who talked him out of it when the only talk to start with was about PROFIT
oh by the way, DISC GOLF DEPOT is interested in donating baskets on a pay back system, that's something anyway
well enough said I guess I should work a little since I'm getting paid
se ya later tonight maybe golf is the next thing after this:cheers:

[jevon]

Why would there be increased maintenence? The maintenence is already being done.

Exactly. It is already being done and being paid for by a bolfer. I know I would be pissed if I were paying greens fees of $20 or more for one round when someone else could come in and pay $10 or less for a full day and take advantage of the manicured lawns that I helped pay for.

Why should a discer pay less than a baller when you are using the same exact land?

[Adam Schneider]

Why should a discer pay less than a baller when you are using the same exact land?
Why does the same exact same tire pump cost twice as much when branded as a bike pump as it does in an auto parts store? Why does a sweatshop-made t-shirt cost more when it has a little Swoosh on it?

Because it's what the market will bear. Now, obviously, if you piss off your regular customers, you've altered the market. That's the question.

[jevon]

Why does the same exact same tire pump cost twice as much when branded as a bike pump as it does in an auto parts store? Why does a sweatshop-made t-shirt cost more when it has a little Swoosh on it?

Because it's what the market will bear. Now, obviously, if you piss off your regular customers, you've altered the market. That's the question.

In which of your examples are the identical products marketed right next to each other? That is the kicker. I am talking about walking into a pro shop and looking at the different prices right next to each other, not pricing at a different course altogether.

[Scott]

In which of your examples are the identical products marketed right next to each other? That is the kicker. I am talking about walking into a pro shop and looking at the different prices right next to each other, not pricing at a different course altogether.

The swoosh example, for one. Walk into Dick's. You'll see a swooshy shirt for $35.00. About two racks over you'll see a swooshless version, same material, probably made in the same factory, for under $20.00. As a swoosh wearer, am I pissed that somebody else bought essentially the same thing for less? No. As Adam said, it's what the market will bear.

[jevon]

The swoosh example, for one. Walk into Dick's. You'll see a swooshy shirt for $35.00. About two racks over you'll see a swooshless version, same material, probably made in the same factory, for under $20.00. As a swoosh wearer, am I pissed that somebody else bought essentially the same thing for less? No. As Adam said, it's what the market will bear.

Nice try but at big box stores the house brands are usually different i.e. single vs double stitching, fabric weight, and the like(I know because I am a cheap skate). If you are spending more for the EXACT same thing just because of the swoosh it is because you want everyone else to know that you can and will spend more. Does this mean you would be fine with courses putting arm bands or bright vests or something on some of their customers that choose to pay more so everyone else can look at them in awe? :biggrin2:

Would you expect to go to a gas station and pay less than the next guy?

Would you go to a restaurant and order off a menu that had the same things but charged more? Do you think anyone else would?

[BSTM]

I didn't think sah hah lee had members, it isn't a country club. But anyway as much as I would love another course to play it doesn't sound like it would be profitable for the owner to put in a disc course. I would rather have a course at the harmony spot.

[snap7times]

Exactly. It is already being done and being paid for by a bolfer. I know I would be pissed if I were paying greens fees of $20 or more for one round when someone else could come in and pay $10 or less for a full day and take advantage of the manicured lawns that I helped pay for.

Why should a discer pay less than a baller when you are using the same exact land?

Cuz you can't win a million dollars like they do in tournaments, heck we don't even have entire payouts worth 10 percent of what their first place winner gets... that's why... unless they want to start helping the purses at disc golf tournaments, then i'll gladly pay the higher course fees in the 10-20 dollar range. Just saying...

[jevon]

Cuz you can't win a million dollars like they do in tournaments, heck we don't even have entire payouts worth 10 percent of what their first place winner gets... that's why... unless they want to start helping the purses at disc golf tournaments, then i'll gladly pay the higher course fees in the 10-20 dollar range. Just saying...

Wow. It's gonna take me awhile to make sense out of this.

[Scott]

I think what Snap is trying to say is this: Golf and Disc Golf are not the same product. They may share the same course, but they are not the same game. Would I be upset at the price difference if I was a ball golfer? I've been thinking about this since Jevon brought it up and I'm honestly not sure. It might, however, incent me into picking up a disc instead of my clubs. :biggrin2:

[Adam Schneider]

Hey, check out this gem I dug up from August '08:

Yeah... when I was [at Oakway], I definitely got the ugly stare from a number of the ball golfers. I think that they just didn't see waiting on us as the same thing as waiting on their fellow stick and ball players. The whole thing really made me skeptical about disc and ball golfers playing on the same course at the same time, actually.

[Scott]

Hey, check out this gem I dug up from August '08:

I think that is to be expected initially. Back when I skied regularly there were these young kids with big flat boards who were encroaching on our powder. Nobody liked each other very much. What's the mix of skiers/snowboarders now? Once the sport became mainstream they were generally accepted on the mountain.

[Tim]

The skier/boarder to duffer/discer analogy is a good one, and I think there are a lot of similarities. In this case though, the skiers and the boarders pay the same for their lift tickets, so any animosity is strictly from attitude, rather than "privilege." Also, while probably most of us on here are in tune enough to know how to behave on a private golf course, I bet we can all think of people we know that wouldn't know (or care) about etiquette.

[Adam Schneider]

It really is a good analogy, even down to the fact that skiers and snowboarders prefer different kinds of "terrain."

[jevon]

One thing I didn't take into consideration is that discers would not be allowed on the greens. Upkeep of greens is a considerable portion of the fees a bolfer pays and would justify lower fees for discers.

I like the boarder/skier angle. When I started boarding only 3 ski areas in Colorado allowed snowboards, and one of them was usually closed! Open one year, go bankrupt, closed for two or three years, new buyer, open one year, go bankrupt...

There will be an adjustment period for bolfers but not as much on a par 3 course. A bigger course like Oakway with die hard golfers is going to possibly get some complaints, but Sah-Hah-Lee is a much more relaxed setting.

[Scott]

One thing I didn't take into consideration is that discers would not be allowed on the greens. Upkeep of greens is a considerable portion of the fees a bolfer pays and would justify lower fees for discers.

I like the boarder/skier angle. When I started boarding only 3 ski areas in Colorado allowed snowboards, and one of them was usually closed! Open one year, go bankrupt, closed for two or three years, new buyer, open one year, go bankrupt...

There will be an adjustment period for bolfers but not as much on a par 3 course. A bigger course like Oakway with die hard golfers is going to possibly get some complaints, but Sah-Hah-Lee is a much more relaxed setting.

I think most courses that share dg and bg keep the baskets away from the greens. Greens and sand traps are considered OB.

It will be the smaller, or less established, courses that are looking to break even that will embrace disc golf first. Tee times usually are not an issue at these courses. Don't look to see disc golf at the Reserve, Pumpkin Ridge, or Bandon Dunes any time soon.

[frzbman]

The idea in talking to the owner, Steve, is to be outside the course on the edge and a few bucks is doable as some of our state parks charge that to park. He really is excited about the prospect and the location is pretty good. I have seen the map he made up and it looks doable. Courses that are 20 miles away are free except for the gas it takes to get there. Great covered area that is new for gathering and great options for tourneys. It has a good vibe! 3D

[Ol' Bob]

Round ballers vs. flat ballers?

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Any update on this? Word has it that some have already played out there. Is it in? Steve Carson and Ryan Gwillim had a meeting but no news? 15 minutes from my house, this would be great for me. Inquiring minds need to know!:confused:

Bob

[smobro]

Nice try but at big box stores the house brands are usually different i.e. single vs double stitching, fabric weight, and the like(I know because I am a cheap skate). If you are spending more for the EXACT same thing just because of the swoosh it is because you want everyone else to know that you can and will spend more. Does this mean you would be fine with courses putting arm bands or bright vests or something on some of their customers that choose to pay more so everyone else can look at them in awe? :biggrin2:

Would you expect to go to a gas station and pay less than the next guy?

Would you go to a restaurant and order off a menu that had the same things but charged more? Do you think anyone else would?

Why do kids pay less at a movie theater when they are more annoying and louder than the rest of us?

[smobro]

I think that is to be expected initially. Back when I skied regularly there were these young kids with big flat boards who were encroaching on our powder. Nobody liked each other very much. What's the mix of skiers/snowboarders now? Once the sport became mainstream they were generally accepted on the mountain.

Were trees even invented back then Scott?

[smobro]

sorry for all the several comments in a row, but I find the length of this thread totally awesome and wanted to jump in!
Played Skyline a while back for the first time and had a blast! it is what it is. I would not have been offended to have a hanging basket with a clowns mouth in it. Lots of fun. I would never play it frequently as the shots are not ones that would prepare me for any of the competitive events in Oregon. The courses used for competition are quite different. as a novelty I loved it. Plus I was chilling with a friend and that made the day. Again, that is what it is all about. Or perhaps the Hokey Pokey is what it it's all about. Go play golf. If a new course opens up, go play it.

[Scott]

Played Skyline a while back for the first time and had a blast! it is what it is. I would not have been offended to have a hanging basket with a clowns mouth in it. Lots of fun. I would never play it frequently as the shots are not ones that would prepare me for any of the competitive events in Oregon. The courses used for competition are quite different. as a novelty I loved it. Plus I was chilling with a friend and that made the day. Again, that is what it is all about. Or perhaps the Hokey Pokey is what it it's all about. Go play golf. If a new course opens up, go play it.
Easy for you to say. It wasn't your birdie putt that hit the hanging basket and rolled 60' away. :headbang:

[smobro]

Easy for you to say. It wasn't your birdie putt that hit the hanging basket and rolled 60' away. :headbang:

:waaah:

[Adam Schneider]

Discussion about Tadmor, Tabor, etc. moved to a new thread (http://www.nwdiscgolfnews.com/forum/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3380).

[Wog]

For those that haven't seen the calendar there will be a glow golf tournament on November 14th. Registration will be available very soon. Limited to 48 players. Cost includes dinner and as much mini-golf as you can get in during dinner, etc. Sah-Hah-Lee has experience doing glow (ball) golf so they are prepared with glow signage, glow lights, etc. They have 9 solid baskets and we will be adding a few more to make it 12 holes for the event.

[BSTM]

so they have a nine hole course set up already?