Rumor Mill

[LJ Jubner]

I went ahead and posted this here to save time

With all but one event left in the WA series the Spring Classic is the only one who has not paid it's series fees. Should the results still be included as series points earned or excluded because of non payment?

[TYVEK]

I went ahead and posted this here to save time

With all but one event left in the WA series the Spring Classic is the only one who has not paid it's series fees. Should the results still be included as series points earned or excluded because of non payment?

Yes the results should be included. get all the TD's together from the series and get the spring classic TD to pay the series fee. if they dont pay, then ban them from TD'ing next year in the series. thanks for letting people know about this Jub.

[Scott]

I moved this thread to the Washington Series section. It is more on topic there and hasn't yet proved that it should be in the CT section.

[LJ Jubner]

Oh yea of little faith

[LJ Jubner]

Yes the results should be included. get all the TD's together from the series and get the spring classic TD to pay the series fee. if they dont pay, then ban them from TD'ing next year in the series. thanks for letting people know about this Jub.

The only problem is he has decided not to run the final anyway. I now the pDGA bans TD's for non payment I wonder if we can convince them to ban him after all they sanctioned the event, it's fees and practices

[TYVEK]

The only problem is he has decided not to run the final anyway. I now the pDGA bans TD's for non payment I wonder if we can convince them to ban him after all they sanctioned the event, it's fees and practices

who's running the final tournament then??? it might be hard to have the PDGA ban him because of non payment of our series fees. if it was non payment of PDGA fees that would be different. isnt there anybody that could convince him to pay up?

[LJ Jubner]

who's running the final tournament then???

I know there will be one just not sure who will be running it.

it might be hard to have the PDGA ban him because of non payment of our series fees. if it was non payment of PDGA fees that would be different.

We could argue that the "lure of Ratings" was why most everyone attended so...
We could also look at pDGA final report to see if he declared that he had withheld series fees

isnt there anybody that could convince him to pay up?

Yeah 135 of you

[TYVEK]

if there is a way for the players to convince him to pay the fees, please post a email address of someway to get a hold of him.

[olydiscgolf]

Who's running the Autum Classic Jub?

[Magilla]

who's running the final tournament then??? it might be hard to have the PDGA ban him because of non payment of our series fees. if it was non payment of PDGA fees that would be different. isnt there anybody that could convince him to pay up?

Why not start with your State Coordinator? THATS one of his duties......dealing with negligent TD's, that is...

:cheers:

[LJ Jubner]

Like I said I don't know who is running Fall Classic.TDGPA would be the one to decide.

Mags I heard this after Eric so I am sure he is already on this

[all2common]

I kinda doubt that Scot is being negligent. The series pulled the plug on the eve of his tournament and then apparently the series put the plug back awhile later. Why don't you just call him up Jub? That would have been too appropriate.

[Sam]

I think this is about Ray Antoon, no? Who is Scot?

[Tim]

Scot More, the TD for Aloha Sushi. I also think Ray is the subject here.

[all2common]

I see. I've got my 'Classics' mixed up. You may refer to me as an ass-hat for the day if you'd like...

[LJ Jubner]

It's was my suggestion to all the Eastern WA TD's back in June to send in their fee's to show their continued support of the series. I know Guy is ready. I can't say for WR but Lakewood is paid

[LJ Jubner]

I kinda doubt that Scot is being negligent. The series pulled the plug on the eve of his tournament and then apparently the series put the plug back awhile later. Why don't you just call him up Jub? That would have been too appropriate.

No sweat man

Actually left hanging is a better way to put it. Paul Wright (x2) has been vital for the WA series life support. thanks Paul

[TYVEK]

so is the spring classic the only one that hasnt paid the series fees or are there others as well? if there are others then i think this thread should have been addressed a bit differently.

[REDFIVE]

I see. I've got my 'Classics' mixed up. You may refer to me as an ass-hat for the day if you'd like...

You are an ass hat.

[LJ Jubner]

I can not imagine WR did not pay yet so Yes The SC is the only one not to be paid in full

[Bullseye]

I can not imagine WR did not pay yet so Yes The SC is the only one not to be paid in full

Hey Jub,

Just curious, but... did anyone actually take the time call Ray and ask him about this directly?

[REDFIVE]

This is why it would be cool if more people that are involved in washington state events or clubs would make themselves available here. I know there has been some bad blood between the tdgpa and an ex-series organizer. I don't want to get into details because it is not my place and neither party is represented. Like I previously stated mark kilmer is a dork.

[LJ Jubner]

Hey Jub,

Just curious, but... did anyone actually take the time call Ray and ask him about this directly?

Yes he was asked about the fee's by at least two people

[DoubleDees]

Yes he was asked about the fee's by at least two people
i do believe there was a discussion about this at the tournament in question. Im not quite sure what the total conclusion was but I do know that fees for the series did not come out of the tournament so this would be money coming straight out of Rays pockets if we asked him to pay it. I do also know when I was involved in this discussion he was still running the Last event and was going to be taking fees out for that one. I also understood he would be doing the overall standing for the rest of the year as payment for the fees. There was also something else which im not quite sure about. I do know the standings were posted at one point but have since stopped being updated. Perhaps another falling out between Ray and the club happened, I dont know.


as for Kennewick. If anyone has any questions directed at or about whats happening direct them to me and I can communicate with pretty much anyone here in the Tri-Cities area.

[LJ Jubner]

i do believe there was a discussion about this at the tournament in question. Im not quite sure what the total conclusion was but I do know that fees for the series did not come out of the tournament so this would be money coming straight out of Rays pockets if we asked him to pay it.

Here is the actual SC flyer
http://www.discgolftacoma.com/flyers/2009/2009springclassic.pdf

This is an interesting statement;
It is my belief that players who attended the SC were under the impression that it (SC) was still part of the 09 WA series. I even remember personally asking why If he did not want to run the series (Reason burnout) it was weird that he would still have the energy to run two of the current series events. So if he did not take out fee's then either the results from said event should be dropped or he failed to cover all his bases and should be held responsible for the fee's

I do also know when I was involved in this discussion he was still running the Last event and was going to be taking fees out for that one. I also understood he would be doing the overall standing for the rest of the year as payment for the fees. There was also something else which I'm not quite sure about. I do know the standings were posted at one point but have since stopped being updated. Perhaps another falling out between Ray and the club happened, I don't know.

Another interesting statement here.
SC Ran but no fee's taken, So what results needed to be kept
FC still TD but will take fee's for keeping scores and points as payment for effort.

as for Kennewick. If anyone has any questions directed at or about whats happening direct them to me and I can communicate with pretty much anyone here in the Tri-Cities area.

Who are you exactly?

[Scott]

Who are you exactly?Check his profile.
Ed Doppelmayr

[Tim]

I can't speak on the allegations because I wasn't there and haven't talked to the parties involved. I do know though, that someone else was keeping track of the series points and scores.

[ChUcK]

Um, I have all the series points scored to current. Let me work on a presentable version and I will post the results. (Including the Spring Classic).

[DMajor]

Um, I have all the series points scored to current. Let me work on a presentable version and I will post the results. (Including the Spring Classic).

Your the man Chuck

[Magilla]

Like I previously stated mark kilmer is a dork.


I will PUSH this issue when I see him at Lava Launch.... :whistler:

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

[LJ Jubner]

Um, I have all the series points scored to current. Let me work on a presentable version and I will post the results. (Including the Spring Classic).

Thanks ChUck for all your math skills.

I don't think the SC results should be counted because of non payment of fee's. I also don't think santoon should walk with the dough either. The WA series has been a "cash cow" for nearly 8 years now for him.

But when it's all said and done they will both happen because
A.the powers that be lack the stomach to confront king ray about the fee's he originally set up and then decided HE could keep. and
B. don't want to penalize the players for the SC misappropriated series funds.

What about you other TD's?
Are you mad you followed the rules, paid your agreed upon fee's and the Series Coord. did not?
If you played the SC voice your opinion here and now.

[erp]

If the fees were paid in response to an ad that explicitly stated that the event was part of the series, isn't it theft by swindle?

Maybe if the community can't bring about some equity, perhaps a visit from the boys in blue might?


B. don't want to penalize the players for the SC misappropriated series funds.

[olydiscgolf]

I want to see the points for SC count in the series. It was played as part of the series and some players would miss out on qualifying if its taken away.

[REDFIVE]

I want to see the points for SC count in the series. It was played as part of the series and some players would miss out on qualifying if its taken away.

If the event is taken off then the required events to qualify should be reduced also.

[olydiscgolf]

I think its a total bummer that the fees for the SC weren't paid, but I don't see the reason for wanting to void the points. I think any diciplinary action should happen to the TD of that event, not the players! We already lost the money from the tourney why take our points also?

[LJ Jubner]

I think its a total bummer that the fees for the SC weren't paid, but I don't see the reason for wanting to void the points. I think any disciplinary action should happen to the TD of that event, not the players!

This is all well and good if the deadbeat TD ever plays or runs another event but if he does not then you are all stuck.

We already lost the money from the tourney why take our points also?

Actually you have not lost the money yet. The phone number on the flyer works. Call it at all hours of the night and day and voice your opinion PERSONALLY about how f-up this is every time you call.Don't make em harassing just use things like

The series had run so well for so long, What changed?
You have such a good legacy why ruin it over $400?
The flyer said "event #3 of the 09 WA series". You took the money out for the series, why didn't you pay it out to the series?

Maybe peer pressure will work!

[ChUcK]

What's Paul's take on all this? I'm willing to go back and reconfigure the points stats to exclude the Spring Classic, but I'd rather not...:smash:

[DoubleDees]

What's Paul's take on all this? I'm willing to go back and reconfigure the points stats to exclude the Spring Classic, but I'd rather not...:smash:
Paul was involved in the discussion with Ray that took place at the Classic. The fees were never taken out of the tournament prize pool so no one pocketed $400 that was suppose to go to the series. Instead of Ray paying the money himself which we know isnt going to happen. I was trying to figure out a way to work things out with all the parties that cared enough to voice their opinions. The only 3 I saw involved were Ray, Paul, and Kaleb. Everyone else was too worried about going home, drinking beer, or getting on the road.

Ray had stated he no longer wanted to run the series. One of the biggest chores of the series is adding 300+ players to the series totals when maybe 30 of them are going to end up with enough events to qualify. Someone else said they were going to be doing the series points which nothing had been done as of the Classic.

[LJ Jubner]

Paul was involved in the discussion with Ray that took place at the Classic. The fees were never taken out of the tournament prize pool so no one pocketed $400 that was suppose to go to the series. Instead of Ray paying the money himself which we know isn't going to happen. I was trying to figure out a way to work things out with all the parties that cared enough to voice their opinions. .

OK so supposedly Ray did not take out the fee's Eric you need to see the pDGA tournament report to find out if he did indeed not take the series fee's out or if he did.

Ray had stated he no longer wanted to run the series. One of the biggest chores of the series is adding 300+ players to the series totals when maybe 30 of them are going to end up with enough events to qualify. .

This is a good one
1st Why did there need to be 8-10 series events and you need to 5-6 qualify. Seems to me the series has a flaw then.
2nd King Ray wanted to be THE MAN and for 8 seasons to boot
3rd He was more then adequately compensated for his efforts no matter how much he whines about it

Someone else said they were going to be doing the series points which nothing had been done as of the Classic.

How many of the players who attended SC used "Stop #3 WA Series" as a criteria for your participation?

How many of you would the results being "dropped" affects your series standings; either positively (poor finish) or negatively (in the money)?

I still say Why should non payed results be allowed in series totals. If for no other reason then to reward the TD's who did what they agreed too.

[Bullseye]

OK so supposedly Ray did not take out the fee's Eric you need to see the pDGA tournament report to find out if he did indeed not take the series fee's out or if he did.



This is a good one
1st Why did there need to be 8-10 series events and you need to 5-6 qualify. Seems to me the series has a flaw then.
2nd King Ray wanted to be THE MAN and for 8 seasons to boot
3rd He was more then adequately compensated for his efforts no matter how much he whines about it



How many of the players who attended SC used "Stop #3 WA Series" as a criteria for your participation?

How many of you would the results being "dropped" affects your series standings; either positively (poor finish) or negatively (in the money)?

I still say Why should non payed results be allowed in series totals. If for no other reason then to reward the TD's who did what they agreed too.

Whether money was collected for the series from this event or not, don't you think removing these results from the totals will only serve to punish the players. Really, its not the fault of the payers that these details were not sufficiently ironed out.

[LJ Jubner]

Whether money was collected for the series from this event or not, don't you think removing these results from the totals will only serve to punish the players. Really, its not the fault of the payers that these details were not sufficiently ironed out.

You would think this might have come up in the past 8 years. At least as a discussion point amongst series TD's.

That's been my point the whole time. The players are not getting what they Believed they signed up for. The event was falsely advertised as a series event and it's my contention that ray benefited from the resulting inflated attendance. Not to mention hanging the finals out to dry weeks before they were even played.

[DoubleDees]

You would think this might have come up in the past 8 years. At least as a discussion point amongst series TD's.

That's been my point the whole time. The players are not getting what they Believed they signed up for. The event was falsely advertised as a series event and it's my contention that ray benefited from the resulting inflated attendance. Not to mention hanging the finals out to dry weeks before they were even played.

Two wrongs dont make a right.

What really needs to happen is a conference of the TD's at the beginning of the season next year prior to any of the series events. How many of us see this happening?

The problem with disc golf and where we all want it to go is money. Until someone comes up with a multi-million dollar sponsorship deal I highly doubt anyone will be making much of anything running events besides the PDGA.

For me going to a tournament and taking 2nd or 3rd in Open Pro doesn't pay for my weekends trip. 62$ entry, 40$ gas, 50$ food, 21$ in ciggerettes, 30$ in alcohol. This adds up to about 200$ for me to travel and play in a tournament. Lets say I take 3rd and get 150$. This means I only lost 50$ on my weekend and lets be honest here, I can throw another 100$ on top of that for miscellaneous supplies used on the weekend. After all of this I still travel and play tournaments and love it!!! I'm sure there's not many people that play to make money and even less that actually do.

[DMAILMAN]

While the TDGPA is aware of the ongoing issues with the WSS, we are working diligently to fulfill our obligations as final stop for the WSS. We are currently seeking solutions to the TD issue. I have read all the threads concerning these issues and would like to address some of the stuff you guys are posting.

It should be noted that our club is open to all dialogue concerning the Autumn Classic at Ft Steilacoom. All board members can be contacted via our website. I havent been contacted by anyone about the Autmn classic or the status thereof. I do see people using this forum to call other people names and also I must take my hat off to "King Jub" for being quite the pot stirrer. If this forum were not here Jub, who would you have to whine and complain to. Why dont you go out in the backyard and take a few putts or something.

Is it really necessary to post a thread telling everybody call or send e-mails to Ray. I especially like the part where you say that its not harrassing if you say things like.....

Ime just saying.. If you all put as much effort into promoting this great sport we call disc golf as you do typing in these forum we could all just sit back and smell some flowers or something for a while.

Cheer up everybody! Look forward to the positive changes that will take place as a result of all this. Let the players keep their points. They earned them.

While I am not participating in the series I am a supporter of disc golf. If you need information from the TDGPA just ask. I always like to talk to my fellow golfers. Most of you know how to get a hold of me.

[LJ Jubner]

While the TDGPA is aware of the ongoing issues with the WSS, we are working diligently to fulfill our obligations as final stop for the WSS. We are currently seeking solutions to the TD issue. I have read all the threads concerning these issues and would like to address some of the stuff you guys are posting. It should be noted that our club is open to all dialogue concerning the Autumn Classic at Ft Steilacoom. All board members can be contacted via our website. I haven't been contacted by anyone about the Autumn classic or the status thereof.

I applaud yours and the TDGPA 's diligence to follow through with a commitment that another decided not too.

Is it really necessary to post a thread telling everybody call or send e-mails to Ray. I especially like the part where you say that its not harassing if you say things like.....

Well Gee Rob, how else are players supposed to contact him. His email and phone worked fine before the event so why not after? I find it interesting that If he ( Ray ) knew at ASC in April he was not going to offer SC as series qualifier why did his flyer still pimp his supposed participation. This could have all been avoided if Ray had just paid better attention to his flyer and the commitment it makes.

[LJ Jubner]

What really needs to happen is a conference of the TD's at the beginning of the season next year prior to any of the series events. How many of us see this happening?

Actually Ed this is a great idea but it needs to be more like Thanksgiving maybe skype?

[Wobbly Bob]

DISC LAIMER:
The opinions stated here are mine and in no way reflect those of anyone in Spokane or the Spokane Disc Golf Association. (How's that Gordy?)

The rumor concerning the Spring Classic is an unfortunate thing to happen to a series.

Rumors are ugly things and they can ruin a great thing whether they are true or not.

It doesn't matter if the series fees were paid by the TD or not, the competitors entered the event believing that those fees would be paid. To not give them their points would be punishing them for something the TD did.

Those that know the truth should tell it on this thread and put the rumor to BED.

[Sam]

Read it and tried to understand it. Now time to offer an opinion.

If the TD made off with the funds, hold the TD responsible and let the players know.

Withholding the series points over this does nothing to the TD and - while maybe an effective way to get the players to put the pressure on the TD to pay up - would ultimately only punish the players and that doesn't really seem fair to me.

Count the points. Do not allow the TD to be a part of the series unless he pays his fees in time for the payouts to go to the players. If he misses this date, however, he should be blackballed from running any more series events.

[LJ Jubner]

Night school attorney finally pays off, eh bob


Withholding the series points over this does nothing to the TD and - while maybe an effective way to get the players to put the pressure on the TD to pay up - would ultimately only punish the players and that doesn't really seem fair to me.

I totally agree that the players will be treated unfairly no matter what happens. (I just figured it out what to call this "Bait and Switch".) Unfortunately with this amount of disarray in the WA series final payout there won't be much in the cupboard. Sorry Rahn

Count the points. Do not allow the TD to be a part of the series unless he pays his fees in time for the payouts to go to the players. If he misses this date, however, he should be blackballed from running any more series events.

This looks like a two part answer to me
1. Being policy of future series events, protocols and repercussions. I think as an additional response should be each series event will be co-sponsored by the Local club, Then if the TD flakes the club cleans up the mess.

2. Not that he (ray) will ever run another DG event but any/all of his events should be boycotted.

[Sam]

Has he withdrawn completely?

Sounds like a Steve Miller song:

Jubby-Jub is a detective in SeaTac...

[LJ Jubner]

Has he withdrawn completely?

Sounds like a Steve Miller song:

Jubby-Jub is a detective in SeaTac...

Is "jubby-jub" copyrighted or public domain. Crap missed another boat.

[Tim]

Good discussions going on for the future of the series, I've moved the pertinent posts to the new thread here (http://www.nwdiscgolfnews.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2404).

[Scott]

Good discussions going on for the future of the series, I've moved the pertinent posts to the new thread here (http://www.nwdiscgolfnews.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2404).

Thanks Tim. Freaked me out a little bit. I was just about to respond to a post and then all of the sudden it was gone. :laughing:

[Gordy #21004]

This year was our 9th straight year in the State Series. B-tier every time. Two-day every time. Bought the Jason and Ray Plastic every time. Paid our player fees EVERY time. The last three years we have contributed by far the most fees. Its like the eastside gets taxed to pay the westside bills. Big DeaL. So this year Ray craps out as Series Honcho. So what? Then Ray TDs the Stilly event and no fees get kicked down; Bad Bass. So Tacoma Club, just pretend for a moment that a basket was stolen. What would you do? Yep, you'd fix it pronto. That's what you need to do now, fix it. Get out the Club checkbook or whatever you have and pay Paul the Stilly fees now. Make the Series complete THIS :cheerleader:year. Paul, get off your 2x butt and post the fees collected and whats outstanding. Post the points standings. Pick yourself up, man. If you don't, the best you'll achieve moving forward is these complicated propositions everyones making and that paying the fees is either negotiable or worse, optional. Ray had the big part right; Two-day, B-tier, eight stops is actually OK. Inland held ten. I don't hate me too but I do love you. Gordy . Go CITY CUP.:trophy:

[tomw]

Don't penalize the players for the actions of the TD. I could feel a jubscam :nono:coming Moose, you just shifted focus away from yourself. Brilliant!
"1. Being policy of future series events, protocols and repercussions. I think as an additional response should be each series event will be co-sponsored by the Local club, Then if the TD flakes the club cleans up the mess. 2. Not that he (ray) will ever run another DG event but any/all of his events should be boycotted":bricks:

Is ever as long as never? Burnout happens, its a proven fact.
Make the WA series right and begin planning next years with some new perspective. The Inland NW series finals/Spokane city cup 8 will be the completion of our 5th year. Thank your tds and especially woobbly-er more than ever Bob:seeya:, G & J Crafts , and all the clubs/ players who volunteer and particapated.
TW, NIRDGC

[LJ Jubner]

Gordy offered an inyerseting post about this on the Lakewood ace pot thread. Care to answer Edge?

[Gordy #21004]

Gordy offered an inyerseting post about this on the Lakewood ace pot thread. Care to answer Edge?

I was just fishen where there seemed to be some pride and joy in broadcasting what's up. ( I thought this thread was dead.) G.:posting: