Course design

[captain jack]

It makes me laugh that people actually advertise thier course design skills.

I can't see why, with all the talented professional and casual golfers playing today, why anyone would pay for a course designer.

It's not something you can learn in school, its something you learn by playing courses. There is no degree for this, and you dont have to know anything about horticulture or be a skilled arborist. Course layouts are usually governed by terrain and money, there is no skill needed to figure out where to put holes, just imagination.

I bet a ten year old kid with basic disc golf skills could design a course just as well as one of these so called "Professional Course Designers".

Heck , I know when I'm driving around, or walking through a local park, I can easily visualize lanes and areas that would be outstanding for a disc golf course.

I think any public funds that are spent on course design, or consulting are a waste with so many willing volunteers ready to help out. Most golfers I know would jump at the chance to be involved in the developement of a new course, not for the money, but because, like me they are passionate about the game.

I for one will aggresively oppose any money given to an individual, or company, towards course design by my local governing agencies. I think it's just slackers pulling a scam.
Can you say "Monorail".

What a nice easy job, getting paid to travel around and tell people where to put targets in a park. :rolleyes2:

Of course, if you want to develope a private course, with private money, then more power to you, you can throw your money any way you want, I will be happy to assist you in design and developement of your new world class layout for a nominal fee.

Does this seem ridiculous to you, because it does to me ?

[Brian]

did you have a particular person or link in mind when you mention this? What brought this up?

[REDFIVE]

I think that a course is designed to the limitations of the designer. Skill, knowledge of the skill of those playing, and their imagination are just a few of the limitations. True, anybody can design a course but I think it takes knowledge and experience to design a great course. Not just looking at a piece of land and saying I would like to... but looking at that same piece of land and saying it would be cool if Climo... Being able to expand past self limitations and expectations is what is being advertised not just course design.

[LJ Jubner]

The most important design tip is:
When you think you have a hole designed Tee and basket positions Stand at basket and look back to see if it plays better the other way.

We use a 10-12' piece of PVC (painted orange at the top) to be able to see both places. Once we figure it out then we use 2-4' stake 1 for the box,1- basket. orange tape to make both sides of the fairway, Pink to designate what is to be left. Now it's pretty much brainless to show and complete

[Brian]

The most important design tip is:
When you think you have a hole designed Tee and basket positions Stand at basket and look back to see if it plays better the other way.

We use a 10-12' piece of PVC (painted orange at the top) to be able to see both places. Once we figure it out then we use 2-4' stake 1 for the box,1- basket. orange tape to make both sides of the fairway, Pink to designate what is to be left. Now it's pretty much brainless to show and complete


I am helping design a private 18 hole course right now. It's going ot be pretty awesome. He wants to hold contests and have open play also. it will be a Hornings hideout style course (pay-play) on his 42 private acres. It is 10 minutes form Pier park. Just over the St. Johns bridge and over Forest park and you are there. It's actually fun designing a course. We need to squeeze one more hole in somewhere though. but we have some technical holes through trees, we have some long open holes, we have some short holes and we have a hole over a bit of water.

[olydiscgolf]

I love the idea of being paid to design golf courses! The only problem with it at this stage of disc golf is that money dictates that most courses are designed using only the land shape and obstacles that are already there. Imagine having the money to design disc golf courses the same way as ball golf courses. Building contour, building water features! Designing the flow of the courses not to the trees that are there, but putting the trees where you want them. Until, disc golf reaches the financial level of ball golf, I agree paying for course design isn't neccesary. But, Im glad there are people (John Houck) thinking this far ahead!

[Scott]

I disagree with the notion that anybody can design a course. Course design takes a special kind of vision and advanced understanding of the game. Whenever possible, multiple designers, or at least consultants should look at each hole to ensure that it can be played a variety of ways (with risk/reward, of course).

[sillybizz]

I believe anyone can put baskets on a piece of land but it takes more than anyone to make a course something special.

[Bob Horning]

I think that a course is designed to the limitations of the designer. Skill, knowledge of the skill of those playing, and their imagination are just a few of the limitations. True, anybody can design a course but I think it takes knowledge and experience to design a great course. Not just looking at a piece of land and saying I would like to... but looking at that same piece of land and saying it would be cool if Climo... Being able to expand past self limitations and expectations is what is being advertised not just course design.

You're absolutly right about having to expand beyound self limitations when designing a course. When putting in fairways (taking out a few trees) you have to imagine someone who can both throw far and accurate, something I'm not up to yet (not even close :)). Imagining the perfect throw and flight path, making it wide enough to be a true fairway yet narrow enough to separate skill from huk and pray. Then trying to do this in a set amount of land, making the best use of it all is a bit more than a ten year old can do, but maybe twelve:cheers:.

[Tim]

I disagree with the notion that anybody can design a course. Course design takes a special kind of vision and advanced understanding of the game. Whenever possible, multiple designers, or at least consultants should look at each hole to ensure that it can be played a variety of ways (with risk/reward, of course).

Agreed. Plus there's also things to take into account such as safety, flow, long term viability, environmental factors, room for expansion, etc.

There are very few courses in the area that one could legitimately call "well designed." I believe Chuck K. once said something like there are only 2 qualified designers in the entire PNW. Coincidence? :chinscratch:

[Adam Schneider]

So how much did you pay your course designer, Bob? ;)

[Chuck Kennedy]

The reason course design isn't held in higher respect by players is that most players are influenced more by the terrain, aesthetics, maintenance, tee pads and park amenities than they are by design. If all holes were downhill and curved left, that course might be the most popular around.

The sport has very few injuries so safety has not been a concern for players. So a designer who plans for 1 in a million possibilities for injury isn't valued over one who does things where an injury might occur 1 in 10,000 throws.

The biggest failing of rookie designers is not designing for a particualr player skill level or knowing how to do it then confirming that they did (see recent article on PDGA.com: http://www.pdga.com/course-design-validation ). Many rookie designs are inconsistent to skill level, unbalanced or tougher than the expectation of the Parks Department that citizen beginners would be served by the design, even if shorter tees involved.

[SMOKIN JOE]

I totally agree, that's the funnest thing I do with golf, every week I make a new course, and it makes me feel good week in and week out the praises i get for the course, i basiclly have three formulas that i use for everycourse i design, i too wish on many occasions that i could have been involved with course making to give a different view of things:cool2:

[Chuck Kennedy]

I believe Chuck K. once said something like there are only 2 qualified designers in the entire PNW.
Only two members of the Course Designers group in the NW. Whether they are experienced or "qualified" is left to the potential customer to determine from their resume and references.

[Tim]

Only two members of the Course Designers group in the NW. Whether they are experienced or "qualified" is left to the potential customer to determine from their resume and references.

Could you refresh my memory of who those were again, Chuck? And any chance you know what courses they designed?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Brad Huggins of Salem OR and John Conte Pt Orchard WA. Not sure what courses they've done. We have several members of DGCD that have joined just to keep up on course design developments and aren't active designers. Jon Lyksett in Idaho is the most experienced DGCD designer in the NW region.

[Brian]

Well, with the course we are putting in we would love to get some suggestions. if anyone wants to set up a time to look at the course I could meet you at his property and we could walk around?

[snap7times]

Don't forget Todd and I designed "Jerry Miller DGC @ Camp Taloali" heh... Can't wait to play it and see if I rock or I suck... But it will improve through time...

[olydiscgolf]

Brad Huggins of Salem OR and John Conte Pt Orchard WA. Not sure what courses they've done. We have several members of DGCD that have joined just to keep up on course design developments and aren't active designers. Jon Lyksett in Idaho is the most experienced DGCD designer in the NW region.

Im not sure of his exact role, but I know John Conte had a hand in NAD Park. Until recently he was the President of West Sound Disc Golf Association.

[tomw]

Captain Jack wrote, paraphrased "I can't see why anyone would pay for a course designer. It's not something you can learn in school, its something you learn by playing courses. There is no DEGREE FOR THIS,, there is no skill needed to figure out where to put holes, just imagination" :(


Lots of people get paid loads of $ for using their imaginations, or is it their skills.
How do YOU divide the two?

[Uhlman]

Captain Jack wrote, paraphrased "I can't see why anyone would pay for a course designer. It's not something you can learn in school, its something you learn by playing courses. There is no DEGREE FOR THIS,, there is no skill needed to figure out where to put holes, just imagination" :(


Lots of people get paid loads of $ for using their imaginations, or is it their skills.
How do YOU divide the two?

I Use both in my job daily and I get paid quite well for it.

[KG_MCDGC]

I know that John Conte is out of the picture in the West Sound, but he may pop up in the Seattle area scene.

Paul Wright and Tony Beckett are the Two-headed course design monster of the West Sound. I've talked extensively with Paul about course design, and, coupled with the fact he has been traveling to other States to compete, he has a great deal of knowledge on the subject. He has expressed a love for course design.

[Ol' Bob]

"Imagination is More Important Than Knowledge"











...

[thadeouspage]

I believe that Brad Huggins had a significant hand in the design of Cascades Gateway here in Salem. My impression at the time (I connected with the group after they were well in to the process) was that it was a group effort. It was a small group and Brad was a big part of it. Say what you will about Cascades limitations but they used every inch of available land, a wide variety of natural obstacles, and created a course with excellent flow. Very competent design.

[DMajor]

I bet a ten year old kid with basic disc golf skills could design a course just as well as one of these so called "Professional Course Designers".

?

I designed a small 9 hole (5 acre course) with limited resources and only about a year of disc golfing experience. My intention was to build the most difficult and fun course possible with as many unique shots as possible. That being said I paid absolutely no attention to multiple groups using the course at the same time as I didn't anticipate that kind of use, so it probably might not play very well under those circumstances. The most fun and important part of designing the holes consisted of days and weeks of throwing to different natural targets from different tee locations to see wich lines would be the best. The basket and tee ideas were continually improved upon after every natural target round. Looking back on my course design after seeing many other courses and playing more disc golf I am sure I could have improved on quite a few things but it turned out pretty good. It would have been much harder to design a course to handle a regular flow of people. Course design is definitely a skill that is developed through practice. I have way more respect for course design after trying it. It's one of those things that is easy to critique but until you have actually tried it you don't really know how much work and creativity are required for creating a unique, useable, and challenging course.

P.S. The one complaint I heard about my course from anyone who played it was from Captain Jack who didn't like the length of walks from the baskets to the next tee. Other than that though I think it was okay with him. :laughing:

[SMOKIN JOE]

hey Brian the swamp rat, i'd love to come check out a new gig and give any advice or suggestions that you might be asking for, not everyone see's the same thing, maybe give me a messege if interested, :chug:

[captain jack]

P.S. The one complaint I heard about my course from anyone who played it was from Captain Jack who didn't like the length of walks from the baskets to the next tee. Other than that though I think it was okay with him. :laughing:

That, and avoiding the horse poop near the barn. :biggrin2:

[DMajor]

No free drops from the poop zone:cop:

[captain jack]

No free drops from the poop zone:cop:

I'm still trying to find the PDGA ruling for dookie. I mean, ya sure, landing on top is fine, a quick blow off and your disc is good to go, but what about those spike hyzer shots that are half buried ? Are you allowed to knock off the chunks before you throw, or is the disc now a lethal poo flinging weapon ?

[Flatroc]

I've been designing dg courses for over 20 years.
My reward for this is watching people play these courses, having a a gudt time and being thanked for what I accomplished.
I think it's OK to advertise my skills, knowledge and experience in regards to designing courses.
I would have a difficult time recieving dinero for designing alone, but other expenses that go along with this and the actual installing could be negotiable.