Discmosis

[Sam]

Thank you! My goal recently has been to eliminate the stupid decisions that lead to bogeys. I did a good job of that yesterday and the result was a great round.

Oh... and it didn't hurt that I was playing with better players, too. That ALWAYS helps my game. *hint-hint*

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Thank you! My goal recently has been to eliminate the stupid decisions that lead to bogeys. I did a good job of that yesterday and the result was a great round.
Oh... and it didn't hurt that I was playing with better players, too. That ALWAYS helps my game. *hint-hint*

I had a great round out there yesterday as well. For me though, I'm trying to eliminate those double and triple bogeys that have haunted me for so long. I was successful yesterday throwing 6 pars, 12 bogeys, and NO double/triple bogeys. Now to chip away at those bogeys and maybe get a bird or two.

Bob

[Sausage Fingers]

I had a great round out there yesterday as well. For me though, I'm trying to eliminate those double and triple bogeys that have haunted me for so long. I was successful yesterday throwing 6 pars, 12 bogeys, and NO double/triple bogeys. Now to chip away at those bogeys and maybe get a bird or two.

Bob

Well according to Sam and Haggerty if you could just play your rounds with Climo then you could move straight to making birdies...:pirate:

[Bullseye]

Are you still trying to argue that playing with people who could potentially teach you something does not improve your game?

Hmmm... I thought you were smarter than that.

With that said... that is a GREAT round out there Adam. Take Jordan with you next time... he might learn something... oh wait... nevermind ;)

Actually, I do hereby coin this newfangled learning process: Discmosis.

Discmosis - the theoretical learning process where players experience subtle or gradual absorption or mingling of disc golf skills by playing with others more skilled than themselves. Note: Discmosis skeptics such as the infamous Sausage Fingers refuse to admit Discmosis is a real occurance in spite of years of concrete evidence.




Well according to Sam and Haggerty if you could just play your rounds with Climo then you could move straight to making birdies...:pirate:

[Scott]

Discmosis - the theoretical learning process where players experience subtle or gradual absorption or mingling of disc golf skills by playing with others more skilled than themselves. Note: Discmosis skeptics such as the infamous Sausage Fingers refuse to admit Discmosis is a real occurance in spite of years of concrete evidence.

Second note: A few stubborn discmosis theorists will deny that discmosis can also occur when playing amongst your peers.

[Sausage Fingers]

Are you still trying to argue that playing with people who could potentially teach you something does not improve your game?

Hmmm... I thought you were smarter than that.

With that said... that is a GREAT round out there Adam. Take Jordan with you next time... he might learn something... oh wait... nevermind ;)

Actually, I do hereby coin this newfangled learning process: Discmosis.

Discmosis - the theoretical learning process where players experience subtle or gradual absorption or mingling of disc golf skills by playing with others more skilled than themselves. Note: Discmosis skeptics such as the infamous Sausage Fingers refuse to admit Discmosis is a real occurance in spite of years of concrete evidence.

Great post Jeff!:trophy:

While I do not deny that getting pointers from better players while playing a round helps, I cannot believe that just playing with better players will magically make your game better, anymore than sleeping on your textbook overnight will improve your test score the next day.

Sure it is enlightening when Mr. Climo throws a monster roller and pins the hole. That doesn't mean that I can throw the same roller just because I watched The Champ do so. Now if watching that throw motivates me to get out and practice my roller, then I don't see how that can be attributed to watching/playing with Mr. Climo.:pirate:

[Sam]

Second note: A few stubborn discmosis theorists will deny that discmosis can also occur when playing amongst your peers.

For sure this is true, Scott. If you play with someone who is AS GOOD as you, you might push each other and pick things up but if one player is playing with a better player, the better player acts as a catalyst and pulls the weaker player along.

Playing with your peers might accomplish the same thing in the long run but it is a much longer run.

That this is even an argument is silly. Jordan, if you think playing with Climo will not make you a better player, I have to scratch my head and wonder why someone as smart as you doesn't get such a simple and true statement. That you try and make a caricature out of it is kind of silly, though. No one said that he is some sort of magic elixir that will make you a better player overnight.

That said, I returned to Milo yesterday for the first time since the Fling. I stepped up to normal hole 16 and pulled out my Roc. I rolled it and it went left of the big tree in the middle of the fairway. Bounced over the hole in the ground with the ferns surrounding it and kept rolling. Made a right turn and sat me down between the two pin positions. I pulled out the XD and sunk the putt for a deuce - marking the first time I have ever birdied that hole in the deep position. Watching Ken Climo do that and working on that shot elsewhere definitely improved my game - if only for that one hole on that one round.

Seriously... why is this simple concept so hard for you baggers to understand this? Is it that you WISH to remain mediocre? Have fun with that. When those around you continue to improve because they play with better players and you are still shooting sub-900 rated rounds and continuously losing as your peers get better, please try to remember this conversation.

:cheers:

[Sam]

Now if watching that throw motivates me to get out and practice my roller, then I don't see how that can be attributed to watching/playing with Mr. Climo.:pirate:

Really??? So... you see a throw that you don't otherwise see and that inspires you to practice it... that doesn't correlate for you to watching the throw in the first place? Very curious. Very wrong but also very curious.

[Sausage Fingers]

Really??? So... you see a throw that you don't otherwise see and that inspires you to practice it... that doesn't correlate for you to watching the throw in the first place? Very curious. Very wrong but also very curious.

Wow, for an atheist this sounds very much like religious fervor to me. Beelzebub made my shot sooo much better...

No. You went and practiced. You made your shot better. Why do you insist on giving the credit to Beelzebub?:headbang:

[jevon]

Are you still trying to argue that playing with people who could potentially teach you something does not improve your game?

For Jeff and Sam and all Discmosis proponents. Speaking from personal experience, playing with better players doesn't mean you get better. I've played with better players for most of my disc golf life. I have gotten better by a couple strokes maybe. The majority of my rounds for the last three years have been with guys who are rated 100 points above me(if I had a rating). PRACTICE makes you better. That is all. If you want to give credit to someone else then so be it.

[Wes Hansen]

Hey, EVERYBODY I play with is better than me. Does discmosis have an opposite?
I think the people I play with may be sucking up all my good shots. That would explain why my level stays the same and everybody I play with improves.

Studying a better player will help you learn. Getting lessons from a better player will likely help your game. PRACTICING will improve your game.

Playing with a great player does nothing unless you apply it.

Sam lost the argument with the part Jordan quoted of his.

[Sam]

LOL - because Beelzebub inspired the idea in me. Had I never watched Beelzebub, I never would have thought about throwing a Roc for a roller.

This is not a hard concept. You watch people do something that they are better at than you and you will pick up ways to become better yourself. This is not just true of golf but also knitting and walking and playing chess and a whole slew of other things.

I wonder how much of this has to do with the desire to remain a bagger rather than improve your game...

[Sausage Fingers]

For Jeff and Sam and all Discmosis proponents. Speaking from personal experience, playing with better players doesn't mean you get better. I've played with better players for most of my disc golf life. I have gotten better by a couple strokes maybe. The majority of my rounds for the last three years have been with guys who are rated 100 points above me(if I had a rating). PRACTICE makes you better. That is all. If you want to give credit to someone else then so be it.

BLASPHEMER! STONE HIM! BEHEAD HIM!:shocked:
:pirate:

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Actually, I do hereby coin this newfangled learning process: Discmosis.

Discmosis - the theoretical learning process where players experience subtle or gradual absorption or mingling of disc golf skills by playing with others more skilled than themselves. Note: Discmosis skeptics such as the infamous Sausage Fingers refuse to admit Discmosis is a real occurance in spite of years of concrete evidence.

Reverse Discmosis - the theoretical declining process where players experience subtle or gradual absorption or mingling of disc golf lack of skill by playing with others less skilled than themselves. Note: Reverse Discmosis skeptics such as the infamous BullsEye refuse to admit Reverse Discmosis is a real occurance in spite of years of concrete evidence.

Bob :laughing:

[Sam]

Wow, folks... Did you really think that the argument went "Watch better players, do nothing else and then you will get better?" Really? That's what you thought Jeff and I were talking about?

My response to this is... :laughing:

Please... pull the heads out of the rectums and actually consider the other side of the argument rather than trying to simply win the race at the Special Olympics that is arguing on the internet.

Seriously... :laughing:

[Adam Schneider]

I think, in ALL sports, it's most helpful to play with people a little bit better than yourself. If the gap is too big, you're almost playing different games, and you can't necessarily translate the pros' techniques to your own.

[snap7times]

Great post Jeff!:trophy:

While I do not deny that getting pointers from better players while playing a round helps, I cannot believe that just playing with better players will magically make your game better, anymore than sleeping on your textbook overnight will improve your test score the next day.

Sure it is enlightening when Mr. Climo throws a monster roller and pins the hole. That doesn't mean that I can throw the same roller just because I watched The Champ do so. Now if watching that throw motivates me to get out and practice my roller, then I don't see how that can be attributed to watching/playing with Mr. Climo.:pirate:


Ummm the playing with better players and sleeping on a textbook is not exactly a good example, because playing with better players is like studying and applying what you study as opposed to doing nothing and sleeping on a textbook...
Playing with better players will naturally make you adjust your form and lines to improve your game which is discmosis. Anyone who plays with much better players and dosen't improve is not studying and adjusting hard enough...
There are plenty players out there that refuse to change their form and that is their problem unfortuately....
Even the pros adjust every year, anyone see the dramatic change in Feldberg's form this year, unfortuately it isn't helping him as much as he would like...

[Sam]

Playing with better players will naturally make you adjust your form and lines to improve your game which is discmosis. Anyone who plays with much better players and dosen't improve is not studying and adjusting hard enough...

DING! DING! DING!

Winner, winner chicken dinner. :cheers:

[Bullseye]

I think, in ALL sports, it's most helpful to play with people a little bit better than yourself. If the gap is too big, you're almost playing different games, and you can't necessarily translate the pros' techniques to your own.

I agree with this to a small extent, but I still feel that by playing with people at a higher level will show you things you may have never even thought of yourself. No, you might not be able to pull off that slow, forehand putter roller around the corner during that round, but you might just try it while messing around later.

Of course, if you're playing with a more skilled player and you don't make an effort to watch and learn from them, then all bets are off anyway.

I started playing tourneys about 3 months after I started playing disc golf, and I know for a fact it helped my game tremendously.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

I've played my whole disc golf career with better players. (I can't find any that are worse.) I'm still a sucky player! Could it be that Discmosis only applies to younger players? :biggrin2:

Bob

[Sam]

Think about how bad you would suck if you were just going out there by yourself. Or just with Scott. :laughing:

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Think about how bad you would suck if you were just going out there by yourself. Or just with Scott. :laughing:

Now THAT'S funny! :laughing:

Bob

[Tim]

I think a good example of discmosis (great term, btw, Jeff) is apparent when you compare OR to WA. It's no secret that on average, OR players are better than WA players. It's nothing that we up here are too proud of, but the tournament results speak for themselves. Why is this? Are Oregonians naturally more athletic than Washingtonians? Do discs fit their hands better? Is there something in the water that makes them throw farther and more accurately? Of course not.

I think it's a snowball effect of lesser skilled players playing with more skilled players and becoming better themselves. And then inadvertently, those formerly lesser skilled players influence a new generation of lesser skilled players and bring them up. In short, talent breeds more talent.

It's been my experience that when you're playing with someone better than you, even if you're not directly competing with them, something psychological happens that makes you want to play better yourself. Whereas if you're playing with someone roughly equal or less skilled, a lot of times you adopt an "ahh, screw it" kind of mentality.

[snap7times]

The brain secrets hormones that cause you to focus and improve hand eye coordination, otherwise known as adereline as one of those hormones... Lack of challenge is a lack of hormones secreted in the body and hence your so-so play...
Also for those who think they "suck", look at most of the pros on pdga... look where they started, in the 800's... most of them have taken 3-7 years to get where they are at in PDGA competition, it doesn't happen overnight, but playing with better players frequently will help the curve progress a bit faster.

[Sausage Fingers]

You know, I used to think that baseball players were the most superstitious people in sports...

Snap, so to what do you ascribe the hormone for choking? You know, when your adrenaline is pumping because the competition is so good and then you shank it into the trees? What's your PhD/MD explanation of THAT phenomenon? What?!? No PhD/MD? You just play one on the forums?

Every time that I have won a competition it wasn't because I had adrenaline, it was because I was able to trick my mind into NOT getting carried away with the adrenaline and just 'played my game'.:pirate:

[Sam]

Dude... this has nothing to do with superstition. This has to do with fact. Playing with better players makes you better - if you pay attention and have a willingness to learn. Maybe the quaffers are getting in the way of this second part? :shocked:

[snap7times]

You know, I used to think that baseball players were the most superstitious people in sports...

Snap, so to what do you ascribe the hormone for choking? You know, when your adrenaline is pumping because the competition is so good and then you shank it into the trees? What's your PhD/MD explanation of THAT phenomenon? What?!? No PhD/MD? You just play one on the forums?

Every time that I have won a competition it wasn't because I had adrenaline, it was because I was able to trick my mind into NOT getting carried away with the adrenaline and just 'played my game'.:pirate:

I graduate with my masters this saturday if you wanted to know... and obviously my bachelor's plus plus plus degree is in physical education, sports administration and so forth...
When you shank it in the trees, that is your own fault, maybe for that last second you did something different to hold on or to redirect your body and lined that disc up with a huge tree like hole 2 at hornings *had a player say the course sucked cuz he hit it 3 times in a row, dumbaxx didnt even change his form all 3 times*...
usually a fked up throw is due to something you modified during your run up and the form it self causing that ugly shot... the more you play, the more concious you are about your form, the less chance of throwing a shank... Now if your throw was only a littttle bit off than what you wanted and still hit a tree, that is just "margin of error"...
You played your game by focusing on every aspect of your throw and didn't forget or change your throw for a round or something like that. Most errors come from blank minds or hopeful throws...
Masters degree good enough for that explanation above sausage fingers?? :cool2:

[jevon]

That's funny. Every time I recall reading a Sam post telling people to play up because it would make them better, it never included the whole part about practicing. It only mentioned playing with better people. I can guarantee that if you took 100 people and had them move up and another 100 people that just spent their time practicing, the people going to the field and practice basket would get better quicker.

[Bullseye]

That's funny. Every time I recall reading a Sam post telling people to play up because it would make them better, it never included the whole part about practicing. It only mentioned playing with better people. I can guarantee that if you took 100 people and had them move up and another 100 people that just spent their time practicing, the people going to the field and practice basket would get better quicker.


You are correct. No one can deny the effectiveness of practice. However, are you going to practice the same thing over and over, or are you going to try out that really cool new shot you saw someone do the other day.

[T-what?]

I'm a firm believer in "Discmosis" I played 2 rounds with Pinkal on friday and applied what I saw the next day and shaved 6 strokes off my game. Idk...I learn from watching better players and stealing their techniques.:merlin:

[Scott]

You are correct. No one can deny the effectiveness of practice. However, are you going to practice the same thing over and over, or are you going to try out that really cool new shot you saw someone do the other day.

But you can see that playing with your peers, or those slightly better than you. And you'll be more likely to be able to replicate that really cool new shot because the person you saw do it isn't three miles ahead of you skill-wise.

[Bullseye]

But you can see that playing with your peers, or those slightly better than you. And you'll be more likely to be able to replicate that really cool new shot because the person you saw do it isn't three miles ahead of you skill-wise.

With all due respect, if we all thought like this we'd never try anything because "We're not that good." There are a ton of really cool shots that do NOT require huge distance... a complicated anhyzer s-shot or anything like that. All they require is seeing someone make the shot and then trying it a few times to see what your disc does when thrown like that. Without seeing someone make that shot, you might never have even thought of it as a possibility.

[Bullseye]

I'm a firm believer in "Discmosis" I played 2 rounds with Pinkal on friday and applied what I saw the next day and shaved 6 strokes off my game. Idk...I learn from watching better players and stealing their techniques.:merlin:

I have seen the progress first-hand. Rock on T-what!

[Adam Schneider]

Without seeing someone make that shot, you might never have even thought of it as a possibility.
For a lot of beginners, I'm guessing rollers might fall into this category. You very rarely see them thrown -- intentionally. (Personally, I only throw them on Pier #1 left, and on Champoeg #7.)

[Ms Thing]

I've played my whole disc golf career with better players. (I can't find any that are worse.) I'm still a sucky player! Could it be that Discmosis only applies to younger players? :biggrin2:

Bob


ARe you forgetting that time you played with me? I am by far worse, as you would be able to tell by looking at my Trojan bag tag, that is a scary looking picture on it :).


I do think you can play better by playing with better players. I have yet to have it happen to me while playing disc golf because I am playing with people far better then me. It did happen to me when I played ball golf in high school and college. I hated playing with the girls that were worse then me, I usually played worse, I played an average round with the girls that we at the same level and my best rounds I played with the girl that won our district.

[Sam]

You are correct. No one can deny the effectiveness of practice. However, are you going to practice the same thing over and over, or are you going to try out that really cool new shot you saw someone do the other day.

Or more - are you going to see better form and try to incorporate that into what you are doing or are you going to continue the same poor form you have been using?

I am stunned to think that people thought that I was just suggesting watching others was all that was needed to improve. That is NOT a part of my argument and never has been. If you are not already practicing - and that should be a given for anyone who WANTS to get better - then this whole conversation is meaningless, anyway.

My apologies for thinking that we were all on the same page when it comes to practice. I had assumed that the people who want to stay in Rec were also practicing but I guess maybe not. :whistler:

[kel]

We are now almost to the point where we can clearly discuss the difference between "discmosis" and "dickmostist"

[all2common]

ha!

[Sam]

Who says that there has to be a difference? :)

[jevon]

At least dickmostist is something I believe in and am good at!

[Sam]

Yes... but can you get better (bigger) at it hanging out with bigger... uh...

Never mind.

[jevon]

What are you talking about? I've been at the top of the advanced ranks for quite some time now. I would move up but I want to retain my Am status...

[Sam]

I, uh... never played in the amateur division for that. ;)

[Chuck Kennedy]

How about some actual facts in this discussion or would that ruin it?:slapface:

There's no evidence that players play better or worse in tournaments playing in groups with a higher or lower ratings average than themselves in terms of their actual round ratings. Certainly if reverse discmosis was real, then Climo would have been pulled down from the top long before winning all of those titles in a row. Not sure he has ever played in a group with a higher average rating than his since the early 90s.

There are more newer, lower rated players coming on the competition scene. It would only make sense that there are more examples of players improving than declining regardless of the reasons, and they are statistically more likely to be playing with higher rated players in their groups. So the correlation is going to be there, but claiming there's a cause and effect relationship is a stretch.

For players to get better, they need to learn new skills and practice. It would make sense that they can learn some new things from better players in a tournament or league in addition to casual rounds. But that new knowledge may mean nothing during the round itself, just the next time they play.

[Jeff Hemmerling]

Nicely put, Mr. Kennedy!

[thadeouspage]

Magic Johnson was very clear in stating that he felt playing against Larry Bird raised his play beyond the normal level of excellence he displayed. It's hard to say that Larry was better than Magic but he was the one player who matched his excellence and could push him to a greater performance.

It was more than just the intense competition, that was always present for the Lakers, it was the inspiration, the increased desire and the simple joy he got from trying to one-up his friend.

Of course none of us are Hall of Famers, but I think his comments are apropos to this discussion.

I played for two years with my girlfriend before I began to seek out other guys to play with. The pace of my improvement accelerated dramatically once I began to play with players that could inspire me to improve and show me what could be done with a disc. It wasn't overt instruction or increased practice as much as it was a change in mindset and an understanding of what is possible. In other words 'Discmosis.'

[Chuck Kennedy]

Of course none of us are Hall of Famers, but I think his comments are apropos to this discussion.
Ahem...;)

If Discmosis is described as a delayed effect from playing with better players, then Discmosis could be legit. But the process of actually playing with them is not the case. In the case of Bird playing Magic, our parallel would be playing a tougher course which probably helps, in fact probably forces our games to improve. Unlike basketball, we play against the course, not the other players. Bird playing against Magic was like he had to prepare to play the toughest course available at the time.

[NWDiscer]

Ahem...;)




:laughing::whistler:


nicely said

[thadeouspage]

Unlike basketball, we play against the course, not the other players. Bird playing against Magic was like he had to prepare to play the toughest course available at the time.

Except that in my example Bird was not a difficult golf course he was a living breathing human being capable of having human interaction, communication and rapport with Magic. Butchering my example/observation is not an effective way to make your point. :rolleyes:

[dooley]

:chinscratch:I truly believe in a form of discmosis...I know my game improved as I watched better players and began to incorporate the areas of there game I liked into my own.I think you will always practice and play to your competition....and tourneys are a different game than any casual/doubles round.

[Sam]

If Discmosis is described as a delayed effect from playing with better players, then Discmosis could be legit.

Well, that's how I meant it, actually, though I did not coin the term. I certainly do not mean that if Ken Climo tees off and then I go next I am going to throw the same shot as him or better. I mean that I learn a lot more from playing with better players than I do with players I can and should beat. Developing what I have learned does my game far more benefit than going to a field and practicing the same thing I have been doing since I started playing.

[snap7times]

will somebody with a rating of 980 or better please move next door to me and play disc golf with me twice a week for three months so we can test this "High-pot-the-sis" out? I play with lower rated players about 90 percent of the time and you can see I have flat lined, I need me some "Disc-most-sis".

As far as the Ken Climo arguement goes, he did have discmosis until the game itself "peaked", the discs only go so far, putting can only get so good, and it becomes automatic instead of a thought process for those guys who do it long enough. Discmosis is more evident in players with lower ratings that try to build their ratings. Gosh, i typed that without my morning coffee, brb.

Ok, here is an example, after seeing the pros play a round on the west side on friday afternoon at BSF, I saw some nice lines, good strategy, and I applied it on Saturday morning, I blew two stupidddddd 60 foot approach shots to take easy 4's on 2 and 13, but still beat my PB by 3 strokes because I saw a few things and applied it. Then seeing McCabe slam chains with a BUZZZ on 2 made me realize, just gun the hole and get that 3, and it worked on Sunday..... Point is what.... if you watch an entire round with the pros, and then walk away without learning or seeing a few things and applying it; you are setting yourself up to fail...

[Scott]

This whole "Discmosis" thing is an argument for playing up. As the great Sam Gibson once said, "I learn a lot more from playing with better players than I do with players I can and should beat." That assumes that you are consistently finishing in the top of your current division. If not, then there are still players better from you that you will learn from and their lessons will be more easily applied because they are closer to your skill level.

The fact is, moving up to a higher division is the right thing to do for some players. But why do some folks seem to think, "If it works for me then it will work for anybody?"

Here are some very common statements and resulting replies from around the disc golf community:

Statement: "I had a pretty good weekend and cashed in my first tournament"
Response: "Bagger! Move up!"

S: "Nice! I just had my first top ten finish.
R: "Bagger! Move up!"

S: "I just signed up for my first PDGA tournament."
R: "Bagger! Move up!"

[Tim]

Hmm, maybe we're under different interpretations of the discussion here. I don't think necessarily playing up will lend itself to discmosis. I think more effectively, we're talking about in your average day-to-day casual rounds, if you play with people that are better than you, your own skills will improve. Just limiting it to tournaments won't be as effective, because in many cases, you may play your first round with some of the top dogs, but likely, in your second and third rounds, you'll be playing with guys in a similar skill level as your own.

Also, it seems that some of us view discmosis as more of an active, conscious learning process, i.e. studying better players' form, disc selection, routes, etc. and adapting your own game towards theirs. While that can certainly improve your game, discmosis to me, is a more subtle, subconscious phenomenon, where you find yourself more focused and in the groove, and end up playing at a level closer to better players.

[Sam]

I think it is some of both, Tim. There is definitely something to be said for playing up (or down) to the level of your competition.

[Tim]

Oh, for sure. I think a good example was our little epic battle at Fernburner last year. I think you were rated a good 50 points higher than me and we were back and forth within a stroke of each other for that whole second round. I knew we were close most of that time, but I never really was paying attention to just how close.

I'm just gonna tell myself that I was playing up to your level, not that you were playing down to mine.:biggrin2::whistler:

[Sam]

For sure, Tim. Let's just say you were playing up to my level and we won't mention scores or anything like that. :whistler:

No... I definitely think that you were playing up. If I recall correctly, we kind of ran away at the end with the next guy a few strokes back. Good times. Let's do it again this year. :cheers:

["Over the Hill" Bob]

What's really funny is that Hagerty made up a word, gave it a meaning and WE are on the 3rd page, still argueing about discmosis. :laughing:

Bob

[snap7times]

Hmm, maybe we're under different interpretations of the discussion here. I don't think necessarily playing up will lend itself to discmosis. I think more effectively, we're talking about in your average day-to-day casual rounds, if you play with people that are better than you, your own skills will improve. Just limiting it to tournaments won't be as effective, because in many cases, you may play your first round with some of the top dogs, but likely, in your second and third rounds, you'll be playing with guys in a similar skill level as your own.

Also, it seems that some of us view discmosis as more of an active, conscious learning process, i.e. studying better players' form, disc selection, routes, etc. and adapting your own game towards theirs. While that can certainly improve your game, discmosis to me, is a more subtle, subconscious phenomenon, where you find yourself more focused and in the groove, and end up playing at a level closer to better players.

It's not so much as adapting to their game, it's implementing what you think would help your game and testing it out, same for disc selection, seeing what works for you etc. And when you are more focused and in the groove, you are actually thinking/focused about the specific things you have learned recently that help your game and the older stuff you have implemented in your game is becoming more automatic, decreasing your chances of shanking through time and playing/practice. It's called muscle memory! That is why you have to thinkkk about it when its something new or changed until the body memorizes the routine.
I can't think of one part of my game that is ever "subconsious phenomenon" and just like "holy moley", I did that... I know how and why it happened the way it did. If it's subconcious, how do you adapt to improve? :nahnah::posting:

and bob, i don't think we are arguing, i think this is a very healthy and attractive subject to be discussing here...

[KenGilmore]

What's really funny is that Hagerty made up a word, gave it a meaning and WE are on the 3rd page, still argueing about discmosis. :laughing:

Bob
Welcome to the internet, Bob.

[Tim]

It's not so much as adapting to their game, it's implementing what you think would help your game and testing it out, same for disc selection, seeing what works for you etc. And when you are more focused and in the groove, you are actually thinking/focused about the specific things you have learned recently that help your game and the older stuff you have implemented in your game is becoming more automatic, decreasing your chances of shanking through time and playing/practice. It's called muscle memory! That is why you have to thinkkk about it when its something new or changed until the body memorizes the routine.
I can't think of one part of my game that is ever "subconsious phenomenon" and just like "holy moley", I did that... I know how and why it happened the way it did. If it's subconcious, how do you adapt to improve? :nahnah::posting:

and bob, i don't think we are arguing, i think this is a very healthy and attractive subject to be discussing here...

With the exception of the very top pros, I'm sure we've all seen pros execute the same kind of shots that we can hit on any given day...just not as consistently as they do. What I'm talking about is that by playing with those pros, you are able to make those shots more often and more consistently.

That's the subconscious phenomenon I'm referring to. It's not magically as if I can suddenly pick up another 100' on my drives, it's that I can make the disc do what I intend it to do and hit more of those long putts.

It's sort of like when in college, I'd have a term paper coming up, and I wouldn't have any idea what I was going to write about for the weeks leading up to it. And then the 12 hours or so before it was due, bam, I'd be hit with inspiration and pound out a not-too-shabby paper.

It's like the added stress of playing with people that are better than you can act as a catalyst to unleash more of your potential.

[snap7times]

I bet you if you played with avery on lets say milo west, you probably would magically add 100 feet to your distance... Anyone see Avery over shoot the fairway on 6W in the final round by like ohhh 150 feet? he was like, this close from going OB towards #7 fairway, OMFG... anyways, i hope for that kind of discmosis.....

[Tim]

I bet you if you played with avery on lets say milo west, you probably would magically add 100 feet to your distance... Anyone see Avery over shoot the fairway on 6W in the final round by like ohhh 150 feet? he was like, this close from going OB towards #7 fairway, OMFG... anyways, i hope for that kind of discmosis.....

hahahah, indeed. I would pay good money for that kind of discmosis.

[Sam]

I picked up the book Mental Training for Peak Performance by Steven Ungerleider, Ph.D. at lunch today. He had this to say about this subject:

"We all know friends who go out and attempt to imitate the tennis serve of Andre Agassi after watching Wimbledon, and they might do quite well. After watching the NBA finals, you may be inspired to go out and shoot three-pointers, surprising yourself by sinking one after another. So is there a relationship between watching the very best and then imitating that outstanding athletic feat?

The answer is yes.

Imagery becomes a dynamic element in the learning process. Athletes imitate the actions of others because their minds "take a picture" of the activity, and they use it as a model for their performances. Anyone can model his physical performance using this kind of mental "filming." Imagery is based on memory, and we experience it internally by reconstructing external events in our minds. As the programmer of our own imagery tapes, we are able to build an image from whatever pieces of memory we choose."

Note the letters after the name. :)

[all2common]

I'm curious as to if Dr. Ungerleider is/was an athlete himself, allowing him first hand knowledge as well as the numerous studies he's read/conducted. Or if he just reads and analyzes the studies he and others create and then forming his theory.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

I picked up the book Mental Training for Peak Performance by Steven Ungerleider, Ph.D. Note the letters after the name. :)

Bob Cabal Ph.D.

Physically Decreped

[Sam]

He is a runner and a skier and plays basketball with his daughters.

Oh... and he is a member of the US Olympic Committee Sports Psychology Registry.

[all2common]

I saw that. Fellow Duck. Practice in Eugene.

While I generally agree with what is now called "discmosis", I do not buy it completely. Of course folks need to practice what they've seen, but they have to be willing to get better and also be able to get better. Physically able. Varying degrees of coordination and wonderful genetic concoctions that enable/disable can limit a player's ability to get better regardless of who she plays with.

I need to go putt.

[Scott]

I picked up the book Mental Training for Peak Performance by Steven Ungerleider, Ph.D. at lunch today. He had this to say about this subject:

"We all know friends who go out and attempt to imitate the tennis serve of Andre Agassi after watching Wimbledon, and they might do quite well. After watching the NBA finals, you may be inspired to go out and shoot three-pointers, surprising yourself by sinking one after another. So is there a relationship between watching the very best and then imitating that outstanding athletic feat?

The answer is yes.

Imagery becomes a dynamic element in the learning process. Athletes imitate the actions of others because their minds "take a picture" of the activity, and they use it as a model for their performances. Anyone can model his physical performance using this kind of mental "filming." Imagery is based on memory, and we experience it internally by reconstructing external events in our minds. As the programmer of our own imagery tapes, we are able to build an image from whatever pieces of memory we choose."

Note the letters after the name. :)

I'm not saying Dr. Ungerleider is right or wrong (although it does appear that he hasn't watch tennis for a while), but are we supposed suddenly buy into this argument just because somebody with a Ph.D. says so? Really? If that's the case.....

http://www.amitgoswami.org/scientific-proof-existence-god/
http://www.everystudent.com/wires/prove.html
http://knol.google.com/k/zvi-shkedi/the-laws-of-physics-prove-the-existence/2uwlycjywdbb9/6#
http://www.ufbahai.org/articles/a-logical-proof-of-the-existence-of-god.html

All of these authors have Ph.D. behind their names, so their theories must be true, right? :rolleyes2:

[all2common]

Nice. Let's see where this goes.

[Bullseye]

I'm not saying Dr. Ungerleider is right or wrong (although it does appear that he hasn't watch tennis for a while), but are we supposed suddenly buy into this argument just because somebody with a Ph.D. says so? Really? If that's the case.....

http://www.amitgoswami.org/scientific-proof-existence-god/
http://www.everystudent.com/wires/prove.html
http://knol.google.com/k/zvi-shkedi/the-laws-of-physics-prove-the-existence/2uwlycjywdbb9/6#
http://www.ufbahai.org/articles/a-logical-proof-of-the-existence-of-god.html

All of these authors have Ph.D. behind their names, so their theories must be true, right? :rolleyes2:

Great. :rolleyes2: How about we turn a fairly decent discussion about disc golf theory into yet another debate about religion?

If I never see another post here about religion it will be too soon.

[all2common]

I think that the objective of Sam noting that the dude is a PhD, was to show that a fellah with an advanced degree actually agrees with a couple of guys who are not doctorates. It gives the statement a level of authority...backs up his and Hagerty's (sp?) belief about discmosis.

[jevon]

Great. :rolleyes2: How about we turn a fairly decent discussion about disc golf theory into yet another debate about religion?

If I never see another post here about religion it will be too soon.

I don't see it as a debate about religion. It is just Scott pointing out Sam's mistake of pointing out that the author of the book that he is referring to has a Ph.D., as if that is going to make his point.

[Bullseye]

I don't see it as a debate about religion. It is just Scott pointing out Sam's mistake of pointing out that the author of the book that he is referring to has a Ph.D., as if that is going to make his point.

My comment was intended to hopefully avoid having the discussion head down that path. It could have very easily careened off in that direction.

[Sam]

:rolleyes2:

I didn't say that this clinched anything. I just said that this obvious fact has a lot of support. I am willing to guess that the majority of Ph.D.s who agree with me and Jeff far outnumber those who do not. Just as I am positive that the number of Ph.D.s who do not believe in a god far outnumber the few whack-jobs that do.

But sure... continue to believe what you want. Enjoy your kiddie division for as long as you want, Scott. In 5 years when you still haven't improved at all, please remember this conversation.

[kel]

let's put this sucker to the test. . . those that buy discmosis vs. those that don't in a free for all doubles death match. I would even add that the losers of said match(es) might learn something during the process, but then that would clearly be pre-selecting a favorite.

[all2common]

I'm in. What's the entry fee? Can my partner be "on-the-fence"? Or do participants have to believe one way or the other, fully?

[Scott]

Enjoy your kiddie division for as long as you want, Scott.
You mean Advanced Masters? :rolleyes2:

[Bullseye]

I'm in. What's the entry fee? Can my partner be "on-the-fence"? Or do participants have to believe one way or the other, fully?

Are you suggesting you want a partner that swings both ways? Hmmm.

[Sam]

You mean Advanced Masters? :rolleyes2:

No I mean Rec, Scott. You know this. :rolleyes2:

[all2common]

Are you suggesting you want a partner that swings both ways? Hmmm.

Yes. Always keep your options open.

[jevon]

let's put this sucker to the test. . . those that buy discmosis vs. those that don't in a free for all doubles death match. I would even add that the losers of said match(es) might learn something during the process, but then that would clearly be pre-selecting a favorite.

Let's see here. The majority of those that support Discmosis appear to be Advanced(too scared to move up to Pro) and Pro. The majority of people that think it isn't all it's cracked up to be seem to be of the Rec/Int crowd. I wonder who will win?

Speaking for myself, actually practicing and not hitting the first damn tree(or second or third or...) on the hole would do more for my game then watching someone else. Until that happens what is the point of watching someone throw some amazing shot? How is watching Climo throw a TeeBird 400' going to help me when I am happy with a 300 footer?

For anyone that would like to prove me wrong, I will be at Pier at 8am on Sunday, with one or two friends of similar skill level. My PB there is +8. If I do better than that I will succumb to the peer pressure and become a believer. Or I will just blame it on the hangover I am planning on having...

[papatart]

While never thinking of it as something accidentally or unintentionally absorbed, the idea of playing with better people to improve your game is one that I can go along with.

As a raw beginner, I would drive hours in different directions each week to play with Phil Arthur (The Natural) north of Chicago and Scott Martin (The greatest lefty ever) in Peoria. I was nowhere near their equal and would always offer up a "play you for lunch/dinner" so that they would play and I encouraged them to give me their best whooping ever. Along with that, I got to analyze their throwing, lines and mental approach to the course. Being adept at body control, I was able to adapt to the top pros' styles and move from Novice to Pro in about 1 year (which is tough in the Midwest). The best compliment I ever received was from Scott Martin who caught a throw of mine out of the corner of his eye and made him turn quickly. I asked if there was something wrong and he said "No, it's just that you look just like Phil Arthur when you throw." Mission almost accomplished in that I did pick up his form but due to my age could never quite generate the speed for his distance.

Yep, playing with better people will help your game. The more they will help you, the more you will be able to learn and the quicker you will learn. There are better teachers than others as many players have no idea how they throw that far. Also, once they get to a certain point, they forget what the learning process was for them so they may not be able to give timely suggestions. That being said, any input is always worth listening to, just make sure to weed through it to pick out the pearls that apply to you.

Lastly, I am proud to say that the locals that I play with out at Dalaiwood are always picking my brain and we play a ton together. These regulars have all exceeded the other locals in their progress and it is wonderful to see that they will probably all soon be beating me. So help where you can and learn when you can, it just makes it more fun!

Later,
Scott Papa

[snap7times]

Speaking for myself, actually practicing and not hitting the first damn tree(or second or third or...) on the hole would do more for my game then watching someone else. Until that happens what is the point of watching someone throw some amazing shot? How is watching Climo throw a TeeBird 400' going to help me when I am happy with a 300 footer?



Watching what a pro can do with a control disc might make you realize that you need to play with a disc you are comfortable with rather than hurl the disc you can throw the farthest. And you might pick up a few pointers on throwing and stance form etc.. There are quite a bit of players who's form is a far cry from anything normal and realizing that they need a total makeover on their form is helpful...

[REDFIVE]

I read most of the first page of this nonsence and had to chime in. I am a 995 rated player and up in washington it is hard to find players that can push my game. I play most of my rounds with mike cain who just cracked 1000 with the last update. We push each other to the point thar every stroke counts. I have gotten so much better because of the competition with a player that is better than I am. When it comes to tourney time I am used to having the focus that I need to execute each shot. Having two young children it is hard for me to play as many tournaments as I would like but playing with a player that pushes me in what would be a casual round keeps me sharp.

I played a money round recently with another local pro and it just wasn't the same. I had a 6 stroke lead after 8 holes and at that point my focus and drive to put a complete round together was gone because I had already won. I wasn't playing all that well but my bad shots didn't matter because my competition was playing even worse. I didn't have to improve because my shots didny matter.

Having someone to push me helps me with the mental side of the game. We are also able to talk about shots and why we did what. There have been so many times that I have been putting to the right side or releasing my drives a bit early and at the point of frustration I can ask him to watch me and let me know what I am doing wrong. It usually takes one shot to get an answer then on the next shot or putt I apply what was said and presto problem solved.

It is very dumb to think that playing with people that are better than you will not make you better. If you wanted to be an architect would it benefit you to take some classes and pick the brain of someone that has many years of experience? I believe it would. If you do not. Then you can continue to limit yourself to what you think is the best you can do, good luck with that.

*****This being said I have been giving lessons and the info can be found in the meet to play golf section!***** yeahyah!

[Sam]

Holy crap! Support! :laughing:

Papa, I found your articles in the instructional section of discgolfer well written and helpful. Thanks for doing what you do. :cheers:

[papatart]

Holy crap! Support! :laughing:

Papa, I found your articles in the instructional section of discgolfer well written and helpful. Thanks for doing what you do. :cheers:

Thanks Sam. It is really great to work with a bunch of the top pros in the world and try to get them to let everyone in on how they have accomplished what they have. The next issue is on grip and Oregon's (via Ohio) own Avery Jenkins wrote a great piece to help with both backhand and forehand grips. I hope to continue to work with him as his insight and teaching skills seem to match up with his course prowess. Add to that some advice from Carlton Howard, Dave Greenwell and yours truly and I think the article will have something for everyone.

In the meantime, checkout: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4spUSMi6xm0 to see a basic putting clinic video that was just put up by the good folks at Discraft. Who is that handsome devil in the video?:biggrin2:

Later,
Scott Papa

[jevon]

Watching what a pro can do with a control disc might make you realize that you need to play with a disc you are comfortable with rather than hurl the disc you can throw the farthest.

Yeah, that is why I normally only use 3 molds. TeeBird, Buzzz(FLX and Cryztal, both with DDGA Hawk Relay stamps:wink2:), and a Warlock. I can actually throw the TeeBird as far as any other disc. I need to give Mr. Wilson thanks for that advice. It has shaved a couple strokes off my average.

It is very dumb to think that playing with people that are better than you will not make you better. If you wanted to be an architect would it benefit you to take some classes and pick the brain of someone that has many years of experience? I believe it would.

I have to take issue with this. Since you haven't read the entire thread and you don't know the background let me fill you in(not meant to sound as pissy as it reads:kissflowers:). It pretty much started with people saying you should play up in a tournament and you are only holding yourself back if you don't. This comment is directed more toward people that have been playing for a few years but stuck in the <900 or even <850 range. If a lower division is offered then guys are looked down upon for choosing one that they would have better competition in from their peers, rather than knowing they would finish in the bottom of the division above them. Then it morphed into Discmosis and speaking for myself, while there is validity to it, it is not a given. Lets face it. Some of us just can't get it right. Sure, if I spent an hour at it everyday plus fit in a few rounds throughout the week, I could probably figure it out. I've played with higher rated players and watched them throw. Hell, I've lost MANY dolla dolla bills yo to friends regardless of how many strokes they've given me. I'm gonna continue to contribute to their lunch money and I'm fine with that.

If you do not. Then you can continue to limit yourself to what you think is the best you can do, good luck with that.I've been drinking so I'm gonna leave this one alone...:posting: but some of us are ok with the size of our penis. Seriously? Good luck with that? Oops. I was gonna leave it alone. :nono:

If someone enjoys playing MA3 or MA4 just be happy that they are playing. Don't hassle them and tell them to move up. Some people just can't get the disc to do what they want to all the time.

T: Release it flat and 10 feet lower.
S: That's what I was trying to do!

T: Straight across your chest with only 80% power.
S: That's what I was trying to do!

T: You turned your wrist over on that one.
S: Well no s**t Sherlock!

I'm only speaking for myself, but I got defensive about the term. Not due to it's meaning, but due to it's origins. YES, practicing with better players CAN make you better. BUT if I were to play a tournament I will not be bullied into playing higher than my rating dictates. I'm done ranting and I'm done with this subject. :cool2:

:jumpspin:

[REDFIVE]

I was unaware this was about playing above your rating in tourneys so that is not what I was talking about.

I do strive to increase the length of my putt and the gurth of my drive. :nahnah:

Play where you feel comfortable but strive to find players that are better than you in casual practice rounds and pick their brains. If you have won 2 of your last 5 tourneys and finished top 3 in all of them and you have the chance move up, If you are in the last couple places that payout or just missing the cut keep at it. Play where you are competitive and going to feel comfortable.


Mike Leslie...
Played for one year in AM2, skipped ADV, a couple seasons of pro later he is one of the best players in the area. Coincidence?

[Sam]

Jevon, it started about one person in particular who I feel wants to try tournament play and excell at it. I encouraged him to play intermediate at a smaller tournament and rec at a larger one. I still do not think that that is a bad idea for someone of that particular person's skills and the length of time they have been playing. He chose differently (I think) but that issue was done a while ago.

Yes, the thread morphed into the general idea of playing with better players but I qualified my position by saying that you are only going to play with better players for the first round of a tournament and then end up with players closer to your skills for the rest.

I maintain the position that just watching better players, let alone getting advice from them after you have thrown, will make you a better player. Not yet? Keep watching and asking for criticism.

[Ol' Bob]

I do strive to increase the length of my putt and the gurth of my drive. http://www.chrisrue.com/funcave/graphics/enzyte_bob_thumb.jpg

[zippyboy]

Jevon, it started about one person in particular who I feel wants to try tournament play and excell at it. I encouraged him to play intermediate at a smaller tournament and rec at a larger one. I still do not think that that is a bad idea for someone of that particular person's skills and the length of time they have been playing. He chose differently (I think) but that issue was done a while ago.

If this was about my choice, I still haven't signed up for the Monkey yet, as we are trying to figure out how to deal with a possible schedule conflict Saturday night. I do know that I am signed up for the RCO, but that the lowest division was Intermediate. Therefore, I may end up playing Rec at the Monkey, just to see which division I should be playing in, overall.

If that comment wasn't regarding my decision, nevermind. :wink2:

["Over the Hill" Bob]

Ok, here,s my story, and I'm sticking to it. :biggrin2: I've been playing now for two years. I have played two years with nothing but better players. No choice, everyone is a better player than me. :D I HAVE gotten better! Better for playing with better players, or better for playing for two years? I don't think that it has as much to with "Discmosis" as it has to do with practice and playing more. I'll say that 99% of the time playing with better players is just that, playing with better players. The 1% that has made a difference is when a player notices something I'm doing wrong or could improve on and offers advice. Most of the time when I ask, I'm told, "oh, just go to a field and work on it". Advice, or rather GOOD advice is not forthcoming. Jason McGrew couldn't take it anymore and pulled me out on the course at Hyzer Pines last year and spent quality time with me working on throwing flat, keeping the nose down, and that changed my game dramatically. Then it was Mike Phillips, who offered me the advice that I was not snapping the disc at release but rather throwing it. Again, I saw improvement. Then it was Jeff Larson that noticed the dip in my drive and gave me advice how to get the dip out of my swing. This all came after playing for over a year and with many many much better players. For "Discmosis" to work you need several components:

1......Better players that will play with you.
2......Better players willing to offer advice
3.....Practice, practice, practice.

Bob

[Sam]

No. That is simply not the case, Bob. Simply watching better players will make you a better player if you allow yourself to store what you have seen for later processing and learn to play it back in the right way.

To wit...

Imagery is a very deep, focused type of mental practice. Researchers know that some athletes are able to imitate the actions of others because their minds take mental snapshots of the activities, and then they use these mental pictures as models for their performance. Does this work in recreational sports as well as competitive situations? The answer is definitely yes - and here is why.

Essentially, imagery is the process of receiving information through all of our senses from the external environment. However, images can also be generated as information from our own memories, so that we create our own internal environments or personally enhanced images. Thus, the combination of these two environments, both the imagined and the real-life ones, has a very powerful effect on our nervous systems. Certainly, in most sports, we take in both internal environment and the intensity of the external environment, as well.

You can conceptualize the imagery process by thinking about your home video player. Your brain acts as its own unique VCR unit, scanning for images and sensory input before they are collected and shuttled onto your mental picture screen. Unlike the VCR hardware from the department store, your internal equipment - when trained and used properly - will recall feelings, sounds and smells as well as visual images with ease.

The use of imagery is not a magic bullet but a technique that is used by athletes with great success, frequently and often. As most athletes explain it, imagery is a technique that programs the human mind to respond in a certain way in certain situations. All of us, whether recreational or elite-level athletes, can use imagery to improve our performance. As 1994 Olympic silver-medal skier Picabo Street says, "It would be extremely difficult to race downhill at 73 miles per hour without a mental blueprint of very specific images of the course." And, as many Olympians note, to use the psychological skill of imagery and use it correctly, you must practice it in a systematic way.

Same book mentioned before. :cheers:

[Eric Olson]

Discmosis = true.

This coming from a guy who is not even into playing tourneys. Think about this example:

Pier Park hole 14 on the backhand anny route. I've played Pier Park countless times. Played it for years. Explored every route possible on this hole for a RHBH. At one time in the not too distant past, I wasn't hitting the line the way I think I should be on the anny route. One day I play the course with a golfer I don't play with normally, who happens to be fairly skilled. I don't even remember anymore who it was but that's not important. Anyway, just watching his footwork and runup angles was like a lightbulb going off in my head. I emulated this next time I played the hole and since then I've increased my percentage of having a look at a deuce in the short placement by an immeasurable amount.

That is just one example of anecdotal evidence. Most of us could go on with stories just like this for hours. You learn things by watching people do them well.