Falling Putt

[OkieinOR]

I am trying to understand the true definition of a falling putt. The PDGA rule seems to be too vague as it says nothing about the state of the disc that you have thrown. It only states that you have to maintain balance. I think it is commonly accepted that if you are within 30ft, you must not make contact with any point in front of the back of your marker until the disc comes to rest, but again, the PDGA rule does not say anything about the state of the disc thrown. Can someone please clarify or point me to PDGA discussion that clearly defines a falling putt?

Thanks!


803.04.C
C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc
to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the
thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the
marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is considered a stance violation . The player must demonstrate full
control of balance before advancing toward the hole.

[Tim]

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly, since you seem to have a good understanding of it. But, FWIW, from the PDGA definitions: (http://www.pdga.com/rules/800-definitions)

Putt (falling) “ Falling Putt: A putt after which a player touches his or her marker disc, or any object beyond the lie, including the playing surface, before having demonstrated full control of balance.

[Scott]

I think he is asking, "Does the disc have to be at rest before the player can advance past his maker, irregardless of whether or not he maintained ballance?"

[Chuck Kennedy]

No. Basically, you complete what would be your putting motion, and if your non-plant foot comes off the ground, you place it back on the ground behind the mark demonstrating you're not going to fall over forward. BTW, you can fall over backward on the putt as long as all parts that hit the ground do so behind the mark. Once you have demonstrated balance, you can proceed toward your disc regardless whether it has come to rest. You can also run after it if it hits the basket and starts rolling away, especially toward, OB so you can snatch before it maybe disappears into OB once it has gone completely OB.

In the original post question, you are correct that the rule says nothing about the state of the disc in relation to when balance can be achieved.

[Tim]

Ahh, OK, I see now. Interesting, I could have sworn I saw in the rules before something about maintaining balance until the disc comes to rest. I guess truly though, if the player is still standing there windmilling his arms, trying to get balanced 3 seconds after the disc comes to rest, and then steps forward, that'd be a stance violation?

[Scott]

You can also run after it if it hits the basket and starts rolling away, especially toward, OB so you can snatch before it maybe disappears into OB once it has gone completely OB.


Wait a minute....You can pick up a disc as it is rolling?

[jevon]

Wait a minute....You can pick up a disc as it is rolling?

...once it has gone completely OB.

[Scott]

...once it has gone completely OB.

That's not what I gathered from Chuck's statement.

[jevon]

That's not what I gathered from Chuck's statement.

Then maybe you should read it again. :D

[Scott]

Then maybe you should read it again. :D

Once you have demonstrated balance, you can proceed toward your disc regardless whether it has come to rest. You can also run after it if it hits the basket and starts rolling away, especially toward, OB so you can snatch before it maybe disappears into OB once it has gone completely OB.


Seems to indicate you can pick it up before it goes OB.

[jevon]

Seems to indicate you can pick it up before it goes OB.
Negative. Keep reading, you know, the part you didn't highlight. The part I quoted in bold the FIRST time around. :rolleyes2: He says "so you can snatch BEFORE it maybe DISAPPEARS into OB ONCE it has gone COMPLETELY OB." :cheers:

[Scott]

Negative. Keep reading, you know, the part you didn't highlight. The part I quoted in bold the FIRST time around. :rolleyes2: He says "so you can snatch BEFORE it maybe DISAPPEARS into OB ONCE it has gone COMPLETELY OB." :cheers:

Sure... spell it out for me. :biggrin2:
Actually, I had a real hard time with the way that was written. I just thought Chuck was being gramatically challenged. :laughing:

It all makes sense now.

[Chuck Kennedy]

There was a situation at the Memorial where a spotter stopped a roller by a top player just before it went in the water with the spotter thinking he was helping save the disc even though he assumed the player would get the OB penalty. I can't remember the ruling for sure but I think the player did not get an OB penalty and got the lie right where the spotter "interfered" with it (803.07A).

[Bullseye]

No. Basically, you complete what would be your putting motion, and if your non-plant foot comes off the ground, you place it back on the ground behind the mark demonstrating you're not going to fall over forward. BTW, you can fall over backward on the putt as long as all parts that hit the ground do so behind the mark. Once you have demonstrated balance, you can proceed toward your disc regardless whether it has come to rest. You can also run after it if it hits the basket and starts rolling away, especially toward, OB so you can snatch before it maybe disappears into OB once it has gone completely OB.

In the original post question, you are correct that the rule says nothing about the state of the disc in relation to when balance can be achieved.

So what you are saying is Romito's patented, but highly ineffective, fade away jump putt is completely legal.

[all2common]

Style points though!

[SMOKIN JOE]

being a pdga official you must maintain ballance after it comes to rest ,, so yes you could fall forward well after the disc comes to rest and still be a foul,
also if it hits the basket and rolls towards o.b. over a hill and you run after it to save it's still a foul,the disc has not come to rest, I saw this last year at whistlers on 13 ,someone was atop the basket putting downhill ,missed the putt and started walking down the hill after it,that should have been a violation , don't know if called,but no you can't chase after your rolling putt:cool2:

[SMOKIN JOE]

the rule there would have been to place it where it was touched or the player may take a rethrow, two stroke penalty to caddies player:cool2:

[SMOKIN JOE]

sorry he said spotter not caddie no penalty:cool2:

[jevon]

being a pdga official you must maintain ballance after it comes to rest ,, so yes you could fall forward well after the disc comes to rest and still be a foul,
also if it hits the basket and rolls towards o.b. over a hill and you run after it to save it's still a foul,the disc has not come to rest, I saw this last year at whistlers on 13 ,someone was atop the basket putting downhill ,missed the putt and started walking down the hill after it,that should have been a violation , don't know if called,but no you can't chase after your rolling putt:cool2:

That's not what Chuck just said. Once you have demonstrated balance, you can proceed toward your disc regardless whether it has come to rest.

[Scott]

Sounds like you can chase after your disc, but not touch it until it comes to rest.

[Bullseye]

Sounds like you can chase after your disc, but not touch it until it comes to rest.

... or until it has gone completely OB.

[SMOKIN JOE]

for one you are using a definition not a rule
definitions are words used in the rules ,,,not rules,,,
it clearly states the disc must come to rest,then show balance,then proceed, nothing else,, no o.b. no nothing:cool2:

[ChUcK]

being a pdga official you must maintain ballance after it comes to rest ,, so yes you could fall forward well after the disc comes to rest and still be a foul,
also if it hits the basket and rolls towards o.b. over a hill and you run after it to save it's still a foul,the disc has not come to rest, I saw this last year at whistlers on 13 ,someone was atop the basket putting downhill ,missed the putt and started walking down the hill after it,that should have been a violation , don't know if called,but no you can't chase after your rolling putt:cool2:

Am I the only one who is unnerved by this statement? Claiming status as a PDGA official and then misinterpreting/misreading the rules (especially on one of the most common infractions a player can commit) makes me wonder about the difficulty of becoming an official official. Joe, the rules say not a thing about the status of the disc, only the status of a player's balance prior to moving beyond their lie.

I called my first ever rules violation last weekend at the LCO- dude was putting uphill and made his 8-footer, but he did the Three Stooges windmilling arms and fell forward. Two of us immediately called the falling putt, only to have to spend 5 minutes debating with the rest of the card about this whole "disc coming to rest" BS.

The three yahoos only conceded the argument when they saw me pulling my rulebook out of my bag. Their attitude was like "don't brandish that thing at me!" as if it was a crucifix and they were vampires. It was if the rulebook is some poisonous artifact you should never touch.

He missed his re-putt. Very painful to watch, but rules are rules. (Please excuse the personal anecdote, but I felt it was applicable in this case.)

[OkieinOR]

for one you are using a definition not a rule
definitions are words used in the rules ,,,not rules,,,
it clearly states the disc must come to rest,then show balance,then proceed, nothing else,, no o.b. no nothing:cool2:

Where in the rules does it say the disc must come to rest? This is the gap in my opinion on the rule as I have not found anything that states that the disc must come to rest. I think this is implied by most players, but it is not stated in the rules or definitions.

Todd

[Pizzel]

It seems to me that the rule is very clear: You must show balance before stepping past your lie when inside the 10m circle. That is it!

There are two other rules that are often misunderstood by many golfers:

1) When you loose a disc you must play your next shot from your previous lie. This includes situations where you have thrown OB and the group agrees where you crossed the OB line.

2) Once your disc has come to rest your lie has been established. It doesn't matter if your disc is moved by wind, a spectator, another players disc, a dog, etc... If a disc is moved after it has come to rest then it is replaced at the approximate spot it came to rest.

We should have a rules clinic in the near future!

[ChUcK]

2) Once your disc has come to rest your lie has been established. It doesn't matter if your disc is moved by wind, a spectator, another players disc, a dog, etc... If a disc is moved after it has come to rest then it is replaced at the approximate spot it came to rest.

We should have a rules clinic in the near future!

What about when the wind causes your disc to fall from a tree? I was under the impression that where it ends up is your lie, not the original spot from which it fell. I haven't read the Rules Q&A in some time, did this change?

I've had to help cardmates approximate their original lie after another upshot knocked theirs a few feet closer to the basket. They always seem so upset that they don't get to take the new lie...

EDIT: yeah, I just read the Q&A again, plus the applicable rule. Your lie will be wherever the disc ends up when it falls out of a tree because of wind power.

[Chuck Kennedy]

It seems to me that the rule is very clear: You must show balance before stepping past your lie when inside the 10m circle. That is it!

There are two other rules that are often misunderstood by many golfers:

1) When you lose a disc you must play your next shot from your previous lie. This includes situations where you have thrown OB and the group agrees where you crossed the OB line.
2) Once your disc has come to rest your lie has been established. It doesn't matter if your disc is moved by wind, a spectator, another players disc, a dog, etc... If a disc is moved after it has come to rest then it is replaced at the approximate spot it came to rest.

We should have a rules clinic in the near future!
I would agree these are misunderstood considering both of these statements are not completely correct.

1) If you go OB and the group agrees you did go OB, then it's not treated as a lost disc even if you cannot see it in the OB area. You play it using the OB rule options for marking your next lie.

2) If your disc is 'temporarily at rest" above the playing surface (except on the basket) and moves before the player gets there to mark it, the lie is wherever it ends up after it lands on the playing surface. If a spectator intentionally interferes with the shot, you get your lie where the interference happened, not where it lands. You can even choose to rethrow. As an aside, your disc never really has to come to rest if your group agrees to call your throw at rest. A common example is on a windy day when your disc lands in the chains and the whole assembly is swaying. Your group can indicate your disc is relatively at rest in the chains which allows you to remove it to complete the hole.

[Bullseye]

I would agree these are misunderstood considering both of these statements are not completely correct.

1) If you go OB and the group agrees you did go OB, then it's not treated as a lost disc even if you cannot see it in the OB area. You play it using the OB rule options for marking your next lie.

2) If your disc is 'temporarily at rest" above the playing surface (except on the basket) and moves before the player gets there to mark it, the lie is wherever it ends up after it lands on the playing surface. If a spectator intentionally interferes with the shot, you get your lie where the interference happened, not where it lands. You can even choose to rethrow. As an aside, your disc never really has to come to rest if your group agrees to call your throw at rest. A common example is on a windy day when your disc lands in the chains and the whole assembly is swaying. Your group can indicate your disc is relatively at rest in the chains which allows you to remove it to complete the hole.

This second example occurred at one of the Hyzer Desert Open events. John Ollis who threw a disc into a tree and he stepped up and placed his mini directly under the stuck disc. Seconds after placing his mini the wind kicked up and his disc fell right next to him. Because he had already marked his lie, he had to take the penalty and play on.

[SMOKIN JOE]

after getting home and reading my rulebook I stand corrected ,,,I did not see what I believed to be correct,,,my bad,,, the spotter ruling would be play it where it was picked up by the spotter, the o.b. rule is simple, if you can't find it it's lost o.b. or not,even if it's o.b. you still must find it,the two meter rule is when he arrives at the point at which the disc is ,so if it falls while bending over to mark his lie it would still be o.b. eventhough he had not marked it yet
sorry for not having book in hand earlier:cool2:

[Greg_R]

While I was marshaling the BSF a player had a falling putt while on his knees (hand touched the ground in front of the lie). He kept trying to say that a hand is not a supporting point (even after showing him the definition of 'supporting point' in the book). BTW, the rules are available (free) online at pdga.com.

[voelker]

What is the ruling if a spectator has a photograph of the following putt. Can the spectator call to attention the possible violation or is he/she to remain silent?

[Sam]

That would all have to happen pretty quickly. I believe that there is a time-limit to calling a falling putt.

[Scott]

What is the ruling if a spectator has a photograph of the following putt. Can the spectator call to attention the possible violation or is he/she to remain silent?

Instant replay in Disc Golf? :shocked:

Doesn't the infraction have to be called within a certain period of time? I thought it was two seconds or so.

[voelker]

It did happen pretty quickly, but seeing as I was the spectator I was not going to interrupt play to say "hey wait, I finally have photographic evidence that that guys jump putt is illegal". After the round was over everyone in the group agreed (except him) that the putt in the photo was an illegal one. However I do believe that players grant each other a lot of leeway when it comes to violations of this nature, thats why it was never called during the round.

[voelker]

He was the last to putt and I'd say about 10 seconds lapsed between his putt and me realizing what my photo showed.

[Scott]

803.4
F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be valid. The call may be made by any member of the group
or an official. When the call is made by a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round.

[Flash]

He was the last to putt and I'd say about 10 seconds lapsed between his putt and me realizing what my photo showed.

I would submit it to the disc golfer magazine as proof that jump putts can't all be legal or proven legal within 3 seconds. We need to better define the jump putt such that it is not a lean in jumper!

[Scott]

I think I heard that there was talk of eliminating the putting circle completely, making jump putts and falling putts legal at any distance. Does that sound familiar to anyone, or was it just a dream?

[Chuck Kennedy]

Next year is tentatively when all of the accumulated ideas for improving rules will be reviewed and some implemented in the rules update expected to be in place for 2011.

[SMOKIN JOE]

I believe that's the way it was to begin with but due to personal injury and basket damage they changed the rule, I believe Shaq ripped down a basket and sprained his ankle while performing a monster jam from 10 feet,the other problem was while preforming the up close monster jams it was hard to tell if you touched down after launching before letting go of the disc,my favorite was the two handed side jump jam,launch your feet in front of you and swing around the basket while dunking with both hands,don't get your fingers caught in the chains though it hurts:laughing:

[ChUcK]

Chuck, is there a list of issues up for debate anywhere? I'd be interested to see all the specific rules that are up for inclusion/removal/modification.

Can we add a rule that requires you to read the rulebook?

[ChUcK]

What is the ruling if a spectator has a photograph of the following putt. Can the spectator call to attention the possible violation or is he/she to remain silent?

I don't see why a spectator couldn't voice his/her opinion on the legality of a player's putt. Doesn't the crowd go nuts when they think a baseball umpire missed a call? The crowd can't actually legally call a foul, but they can point out the fact that a player is repeatedly committing infractions, thereby drawing the attention of those who can make the call.

Obviously walking with the gallery is not the same as courtside seats at a Lakers game, but there are plenty of instances when it is acceptable for the gallery to make noise. Your noise just happens to be "___ is foot-faulting every putt!" instead of "Yay!".

[SMOKIN JOE]

I believe the board of directors vote on that so Chris or Todd should be able to help you out,as a pdga member you can petition the board on anything you see fit to be looked into or changed:cool2:

[johnny lamotte]

i have just been reading these comments and stuff but i think while the disc is rolling you can go walk to it cause here at the USDGC Final Round nate doss walks to a rolling disc

[johnny lamotte]

sry heres the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXjUQpymjr0 its at 2:00

[Chuck Kennedy]

I'm not on the Rules Committee (RC) but I suspect they have been keeping a list of items to address. The sequence of events will be the Board officially asking the RC to do an update which hasn't happened yet. The RC goes about doing the update taking into consideration a lot of the Rules FAQs that have accumulated to see if they can be incorporated into the update along with other clarifications that have been proposed along the way. The RC sends draft to the Board for review and approval or head back to address some issues the Board would prefer are handled better or differently. Then final approval, printing and distribution to members for the 2011 renewal period.

[ChUcK]

i have just been reading these comments and stuff but i think while the disc is rolling you can go walk to it cause here at the USDGC Final Round nate doss walks to a rolling disc

There's nothing wrong with what Nate did there. He clearly established balance before advancing beyond his lie.

edit: I watched it again, and it looks like he's outside of 10m anyways. Further on down the video, it shows a clip of Avery deciding which putter to use, then tossing the unchosen disc to the ground, and it almost looks like he's throwing it in the direction of the basket. (~4:00)

[johnny lamotte]

ya i know thats what i was saying some people were saying you couldnt walk towards the disc until it stops

[Iowa]

so can you go past your lie on a follow thru on any other throw? or is that specific to putting?

[Scott]

so can you go past your lie on a follow thru on any other throw? or is that specific to putting?

Yes. On shots outside of 10m it is OK to follow through past your marker, as long as you release your disc before you step past your lie.