SeaTac Hierarchy

[ChUcK]

What's the story with SeaTac Park? Who is in control of the course?

The reason I ask is this- summer school looks like a bust this year, so I will find myself with loads of free time on my hands. I thought it might be nice to spend my mornings at the park in a constant maintenance effort.

So... I need to know who is the head honcho at this time so I can discuss various projects and possibilities of course beautification and cleanup. I have no intention of altering the play of any holes, I'm more interested in removing most of the blackberries and scotch broom from the course, and I'd like some direction by the responsible authorities.

Should I just talk to Guy? Who is the dude that installed the kick-ass "next tee->" signs before CSI? I heard rumors about a transfer of basket rights from Herm to other people... Grossman's name comes up every now and then... What's the true state of the course right now?

Oh, and if anyone even mentions the Herm Disc Golf Club (pay attention to this eye-roll, it's gonna be a good one- :rolleyes2:) with a straight face I will scratch the entire idea and spend my days at Terrace instead.

[Adam Schneider]

Surely the City Of SeaTac Parks & Rec department can get you in touch with the correct people: http://www.ci.seatac.wa.us/park/nsp.htm

[ChUcK]

Well, I just received a 3rd pm that mentioned the Herm DGC, so I guess my fate is sealed. Terrace Creek, here I come.

Is it standard for a single golfer to "own" the rights to a public DG course?

[Tim]

Well, I just received a 3rd pm that mentioned the Herm DGC, so I guess my fate is sealed. Terrace Creek, here I come.

Is it standard for a single golfer to "own" the rights to a public DG course?

Heh, watch out for the "Seattle Disc Golf Player's Association" (aka Lowell DGC). :wink2: Fortunately, Lowell's a little more accommodating when it comes to people wanting to help out to improve the course.

And no, I don't think it's standard for a single golfer to "own" a public course. Nor do I think it's standard for a single golfer to be a "club". Nor do I think it's standard for every course to be represented by separate "club". The way things have evolved in the Settle area though, that all seems to be the standard around here. :pullhair:

[Scott]

Well, I just received a 3rd pm that mentioned the Herm DGC, so I guess my fate is sealed. Terrace Creek, here I come.

Is it standard for a single golfer to "own" the rights to a public DG course?

For us Oregonians, what's the deal with Herm?

[ChUcK]

I think only Jub and Guy know the whole story behind this guy. All I know is that whenever Seattlites talk about how effed up the DG scene is here, Herm's name inevitably comes up.

Yeah, I'm sure Lowell would have no problem with me working at Terrace... I would certainly clear any projects with him. Lord knows that new hole 13 could use some serious attention, starting with a new teepad location. 2.3 ft of runup don't quite cut it for me.

Edit: I just realized that the words "Herm", "Jub", and "Disc Golf" have all appeared in a single thread. Better move this one to the Purgatory section, quick!

[Scott]

I think only Jub and Guy know the whole story behind this guy. All I know is that whenever Seattlites talk about how effed up the DG scene is here, Herm's name inevitably comes up.

Yeah, I'm sure Lowell would have no problem with me working at Terrace... I would certainly clear any projects with him. Lord knows that new hole 13 could use some serious attention, starting with a new teepad location. 2.3 ft of runup don't quite cut it for me.

Edit: I just realized that the words "Herm", "Jub", and "Disc Golf" have all appeared in a single thread. Better move this one to the Purgatory section, quick!

Yeah, I'll say that's f'd up. When a golfer selflessly offers his time and energy to improve a course that desperately needs it and cannot because somebody else "claimed it"?
WTF?!?
Seatac's loss is Terrace Creek's gain.

Good on you, Chuck. 90% (or more) of us would just choose to spend our free time golfing. :cheers:

[ChUcK]

Good on you, Chuck. 90% (or more) of us would just choose to spend our free time golfing. :cheers:

Oh, there'll be plenty of golfing, too. Plus, I haven't done a damn thing yet. Congratulate me in September, once I've actually come through!:cheers:

[Tim]

For us Oregonians, what's the deal with Herm?

Yeah, like Chuck said, Jub and Guy would know the whole story. Herm was more active in the scene before I came to the area, and I don't see him much these days. He did come to Terrace dubs one night, got teamed up with a guy who wasn't very good, got pissed off about it, and vowed to never play Terrace dubs again, if that tells you anything.

The story on Herm and SeaTac, to the best of my knowledge, is that Herm designed and installed the course--for which he should definitely be commended. Baskets were donated for the course, and the course is set up as an agreement between the city and "Herm's Disc Golf Club". Herm apparently is good at pissing people off, and the relations between him and the head of the parks department are strained. As I understand it, Herm doesn't want anything happening to the course w/o his approval, and I guess he doesn't approve of people messing with "his" course. Apparently if someone buys all the baskets off him, he'd be willing to relinquish control.

[Gill]

Yeah, I'm sure Lowell would have no problem with me working at Terrace... I would certainly clear any projects with him. Lord knows that new hole 13 could use some serious attention, starting with a new teepad location. 2.3 ft of runup don't quite cut it for me.


Chuck, I don't think this is any different from the way things are at Seatac. In order to provide the full story, one must mention "Herms DGC" so as to appreciate the evolution of the course from a one (or few) man show to what it is now... ummm, perhaps a one Guy show. In any event, a club arises to take care of a course - a different club for each course. This one just has an unfortunate name attached to it that implies ownership.

I think that's natural in any area for the regular ballers to stick around a particular course the majority of the time and be interested in tending to it. I could be wrong, Lord knows I haven't been in the DG scene for all that long. For Seatac, there's plenty of space to tend to and not many golfers who come out to work parties (I've seen Grossman, Rahn, Illg, Jub, and Guy at recent work parties - sorry if I missed others, and yet how many people play there or dog on the current state of the course?). I doubt Terrace is much different though - if I wanted to go work on that course I would certainly feel obligated to contact "and clear any projects with" whoever is the course contact/manager, i.e., Lowell.

[Scott]

Oh, there'll be plenty of golfing, too. Plus, I haven't done a damn thing yet. Congratulate me in September, once I've actually come through!:cheers:

I wouldn't expect anyone who bears such a striking resemblence to Honest Abe to back out of a promise. :nono:

[Sam]

Yeah, like Chuck said, Jub and Guy would know the whole story. Herm was more active in the scene before I came to the area, and I don't see him much these days. He did come to Terrace dubs one night, got teamed up with a guy who wasn't very good, got pissed off about it, and vowed to never play Terrace dubs again, if that tells you anything.

Sounds about right.

The story on Herm and SeaTac, to the best of my knowledge, is that Herm designed and installed the course--for which he should definitely be commended.

Well.. unless you don't like the course. Then he should be condemned. :)

I wish I had some land so I could throw a drive, mark the tee and then go to my disc and pace 20 feet to the new pin position. I would also "own" that course. :rolleyes:

Baskets were donated for the course, and the course is set up as an agreement between the city and "Herm's Disc Golf Club". Herm apparently is good at pissing people off, and the relations between him and the head of the parks department are strained. As I understand it, Herm doesn't want anything happening to the course w/o his approval, and I guess he doesn't approve of people messing with "his" course. Apparently if someone buys all the baskets off him, he'd be willing to relinquish control.

Sounds like something I heard about Timber Park once... :rolleyes:

When will people learn that once you donate something, it is no longer yours to do anything with? If I donate some money to UNICEF, do I get to dictate how they spend it and if I am not happy about what they decide they will just give it back to me?

On a side note... does anyone remember when Herm used to post? I mean... I just didn't think you could capture toothless yokel in a post but boy was I wrong... :whistler:

[Tim]

I think that's natural in any area for the regular ballers to stick around a particular course the majority of the time and be interested in tending to it. I could be wrong, Lord knows I haven't been in the DG scene for all that long. For Seatac, there's plenty of space to tend to and not many golfers who come out to work parties (I've seen Grossman, Rahn, Illg, Jub, and Guy at recent work parties - sorry if I missed others, and yet how many people play there or dog on the current state of the course?). I doubt Terrace is much different though - if I wanted to go work on that course I would certainly feel obligated to contact "and clear any projects with" whoever is the course contact/manager, i.e., Lowell.

I agree that it's natural for people to spend more time at a particular course, and therefore do more work there. I haven't been on the scene a long time either, but Seattle is the only place I've heard of that has a separate club for each course, though. More times than not, when I've been golfing with a Portland guy in a tourney or something, I've asked what his home course is, I'll get a funny look, and he'll reply something along the lines of "uhh...all of them?" I've said it before, but it still seems really strange that a city the size of Seattle doesn't have an actual unified club.

That being said though, I don't want to take away from what the course locals have done...we try to do what we can at Terrace, the North Parkers are doing a good job with the maintenance there, Lakewood is almost always looking good, and SeaTac has been in great shape (besides the emptied trash bags and poo-smearing.) I would like to come to some SeaTac work parties, but they always seem to happen when I'm busy with other things (usually regular work, without any party associated). And though I don't make my way out to the other courses like Arlington and Lake Stevens too much, it's obvious there been some locals taking care of things there. But anyway, just imagine what could be accomplished if all the golfers in the area who give a damn about course upkeep could come together for work parties at courses. :chinscratch:

[Tim]

Well.. unless you don't like the course. Then he should be condemned. :)

I wish I had some land so I could throw a drive, mark the tee and then go to my disc and pace 20 feet to the new pin position. I would also "own" that course. :rolleyes:


hahaha, for some reason I didn't think you'd ever played SeaTac, Sam. I've heard complaints about some of the design before, but I think they're all pretty well designed holes. The only one that I give exception to would be 14 (the one with the rock wall next to the tee), and that's just because it's always a crapshoot off the tee. You can aim for a certain part of the "fairway", but there's no real safe way to play. Instead of risk/reward, it's pretty much all risk. Besides that though, they're all fair holes, IMO, though of course, some should definitely not be considered par 3s.

...but boy was I wrong... :whistler:


:shocked::shocked::shocked::shocked:


:cheers:

[LJ Jubner]

hahaha, for some reason I didn't think you'd ever played SeaTac, Sam. I've heard complaints about some of the design before, but I think they're all pretty well designed holes. The only one that I give exception to would be 14 (the one with the rock wall next to the tee), and that's just because it's always a crap shoot off the tee. You can aim for a certain part of the "fairway", but there's no real safe way to play. Instead of risk/reward, it's pretty much all risk.


Several holes at the Tac require players to throw a placement shot off the box then be aggressive on their second. 14,16,17,18 That is unless you can overpower them like Dave's shot on 17.

On 14 try throwing hyzer off the box. It opens up the hole


Safe at Seatac. I ahve spent more then 200+ hrs there over the years and have never once felt unsafe. Most everyone has a cell Keep the 91 always ready

[Tim]

On 14 try throwing hyzer off the box. It opens up the hole


:confused: To where? Behind the "fence" of trees? If you make it past the fence, there are some lines to be had, but being a foot or two in any direction can rule those lines out. Some shots might yield a better chance of having a line than others, but it's always a gamble--you can never really be sure if you had a good shot or not until you get to your disc.

[LJ Jubner]

Actually you throw it towards the 13 Tee and try to end up by the black man hole cover on the path. Next time we are there I will show you.

[TreeLove]

How about removing a few trees from that grove, in order to create a few legitimate lines for 2nd shots, and creating actual desirable landing areas to drive for? Whoops, did I say a bad word? OK, MOVE the trees, or better yet, take out some invasive species, plant some native species somewhere else!

[Pizzel]

How about removing a few trees from that grove, in order to create a few legitimate lines for 2nd shots, and creating actual desirable landing areas to drive for? Whoops, did I say a bad word? OK, MOVE the trees, or better yet, take out some invasive species, plant some native species somewhere else!
Here, here. I loves me some Seatac, but hole 14 is just dumb........about as dumb as a Superclass tourney.........RIPT.......Three Headed Monster.......the woods holes at Bryant Park......:whistler:

[barbikes]

Whoa boys, Whoa!
I gotta speak up for my homeys at the 'Tac. Hole 14 is awesome as it is. Lots of us regulars would hate to see it changed in any way. When I first saw this thread and saw that ChUcK was planning on doing some maintenance I assumed that he was gonna be doing a lot of grass mowing. And I think that would be awesome but IMHO that's all SeaTac needs. I started playing the course in the spring of 2005 and I play about 75 games a year there. It's a much easier course now than it was when I started. The course used to be MUCH more overgrown. I don't think that was a bad thing The recent unauthorized tree butchery that made the course easier was really aggravating. I've disagreed with some of the authorized maintenance. I don't like the window they cut in the bush just SE of basket 12.
I realize that not everyone appreciates difficult courses. I've played 41 courses in the past five years and I liked every one of them but the ones that are memorable (Mciver, Delaveaga, Lake Casitas) seem to be the more difficult ones.
Bottom Line: Don't make SeaTac easier - Do make it MORE difficult!

[Adam Schneider]

I didn't think Chuck had the slightest intention of making it "easier"; it sounds like he just wants to help clean things up and remove some invasive weeds.

[ChUcK]

What Adam said. I don't want to make the Tac easier or harder, just a more pleasant place to golf.

[barbikes]

Sorry Chuck! I mis-communicated. I think it's great that you're doing course maintenance. I saw the "Seatac Schedule" thread and I think you have some good ideas there. My remarks about making the course easier weren't directed at you Chuck. They were directed at the idea of removing that brutal row of trees on 14. I can't support that idea. I feel if you play it the way Jub said then it's a good solid par four hole and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[LJ Jubner]

This is not an exact science by any means. I agree the issue on 12 is very sad. I have proposed installing chain link fence into the hole you can see through but not get through.

I seriously doubt alt tees will be in anytime soon.

I think 14 is a weird hole The basket was moved because one golfer had a birdie that Herm did not like so he moved it. It sure was harder before the trees were cut down in the first 1/3

[Tim]

My issue isn't with the row of trees...I think they're a good feature, actually. It's once you get past the row of trees that I have issues. I think know the area that Jub's talking about--that's the "higher percentage" area that I usually go for, but I use a sidearm to get there. Still it's the same story though, you could be in one spot and be golden, or be two feet to the right and have nothin'. Don't get me wrong, I love difficult holes, but I like them to have more dependence on skill than luck.

Speaking of moving the pin, I think there's a case for moving it again. It seems like every tournament I play there, there's always an issue of people's drives on 16 coming into 14's green. I know last year before Jet Wash, Heath was putting on 14 and got beaned in the head by a drive coming in hot.

Also, I think it's good that Barbikes mentioned mowing...that is definitely the most pressing issue with the course this time of year. It's great that Chuck wants to help out the course, but it kind of defeats the purpose if the course isn't reasonably playable. Are there plans in place to keep it mowed throughout the green season?

Dual tees would definitely be a huge asset to the course, as would alternate pins. What's the reason for that not happening any time soon, Jub? Funding, motivation, or Herm?

[Gill]

Dual tees would definitely be a huge asset to the course, as would alternate pins. What's the reason for that not happening any time soon, Jub? Funding, motivation, or Herm?

Here's a somewhat crazy idea... why not have a "Club Meeting" and all interested participants and wanna-be club members could join for whatever nominal fee and then participate in a forum dealing with all the issues of the course: maintenance, future direction of the course, garbage collection, security, getting poop off the chains, etc.?

I know, I know, it's a bit off the wall but I would contend that all of the responses on this thread indicate that maybe there's a need for some discussion. Just a thought, don't want to stir up any trouble 3 weeks before moving to NC...

[Bullseye]

I agree completely. That course is a big huge slice of awesome, but hole 14 is the taint. Fix this one hole and I doubt I could find anything to complain about the course at Seatac.


Here, here. I loves me some Seatac, but hole 14 is just dumb........about as dumb as a Superclass tourney.........RIPT.......Three Headed Monster.......the woods holes at Bryant Park......:whistler:

[Bullseye]

I agree with you on every point except hole 14. Throwing directly at a grove of trees and praying does NOT make a good hole. There is no fairway through that middle grove, and that fact alone makes it a bad hole.

Whoa boys, Whoa!
I gotta speak up for my homeys at the 'Tac. Hole 14 is awesome as it is. Lots of us regulars would hate to see it changed in any way. When I first saw this thread and saw that ChUcK was planning on doing some maintenance I assumed that he was gonna be doing a lot of grass mowing. And I think that would be awesome but IMHO that's all SeaTac needs. I started playing the course in the spring of 2005 and I play about 75 games a year there. It's a much easier course now than it was when I started. The course used to be MUCH more overgrown. I don't think that was a bad thing The recent unauthorized tree butchery that made the course easier was really aggravating. I've disagreed with some of the authorized maintenance. I don't like the window they cut in the bush just SE of basket 12.
I realize that not everyone appreciates difficult courses. I've played 41 courses in the past five years and I liked every one of them but the ones that are memorable (Mciver, Delaveaga, Lake Casitas) seem to be the more difficult ones.
Bottom Line: Don't make SeaTac easier - Do make it MORE difficult!

[The Ombudsman]

What's the story with SeaTac Park? Who is in control of the course?

The reason I ask is this- summer school looks like a bust this year, so I will find myself with loads of free time on my hands. I thought it might be nice to spend my mornings at the park in a constant maintenance effort.

So... I need to know who is the head honcho at this time so I can discuss various projects and possibilities of course beautification and cleanup. I have no intention of altering the play of any holes, I'm more interested in removing most of the blackberries and scotch broom from the course, and I'd like some direction by the responsible authorities.

Should I just talk to Guy? Who is the dude that installed the kick-ass "next tee->" signs before CSI? I heard rumors about a transfer of basket rights from Herm to other people... Grossman's name comes up every now and then... What's the true state of the course right now?

Oh, and if anyone even mentions the Herm Disc Golf Club (pay attention to this eye-roll, it's gonna be a good one- :rolleyes2:) with a straight face I will scratch the entire idea and spend my days at Terrace instead.

This is a question that needs asking again. I have heard that Herm has been bought out and Chainbangers has taken over.

Well???

[sillybizz]

This is a question that needs asking again. I have heard that Herm has been bought out and Chainbangers has taken over.

Well???

It's on a need to know basis and since you live in New York now you don't need to know.

[The Ombudsman]

It's on a need to know basis and since you live in New York now you don't need to know.

Sounds just like the Seattle Disc Golf Club.
Payback is a bitch. I guess you are getting your laughs now.

Don't be a jackass, Tom. I know it's tough for you.
I have sweated a lot more blood on that course than you ever will.

[Tim]

C'mon now, it's not that need to know.

From the most recent newsletter:

Sea-tac disc golf course is currently undergoing new management. I (Keith Lionetti)am currently working with city of sea-tac and Herm to renegotiate a new contract.What this means is that I have invested some money to take on the stewardship role of the disc golf course located inside North Sea-tac Park. I am willing to make this a club run course, and in doing so I want to offer anyone interested in helping to make this course look better a chance to adopt-a-hole. This program will have a couple of options. If you have the luxury and can afford it for $200 you can get a personalized marble engraved slab with your name,your organizations name or if you want to personalize the hole with a nickname that you choose to give it. As long as it is OK with the City of Sea-tac Parks we will place this slab securly next to the tee pad of your proposed hole. If we cannot for some weird city of sea-tac parks code that we cannot negotiate or get around each of them will be displayed proudly in chainbangerz disc golf shop and on our Discovering Open Spaces website as a major contributor.If you dont have the funds but have the energy and time to invest you can help maintain that hole in exchange of paying for it. This will give you a sense of ownership to the course,and will relieve me of any personal debt.So if you have a favorite hole and want to make it dialed out within my guidelines as per city of sea-tac contractual agreement, then by all means we will encourage this.
In the coming weeks we will have a place here online to securely adopt-a-hole or you can always come in the shop to pay and discuss specifics for what you want your slab to say and what hole you want to adopt.

We (Chainbangers Disc Golf Club) will be hosting monthly c-tier sanctioned tournaments at sea-tac disc golf course to help raise funds for the club as well as for any improvements needed for that course. We should be able to launch these as soon as March.

I think this is a great step forward. Anytime in the past, whenever people have suggested any kind of change, the answer has always been "Yeah that'll happen, as soon as somebody buys Herm out." It'd always been a hypothetical, but now Keith has stepped up and made it happen. The future looks bright.

Michael, I know you've done a lot of work out there, and we're all thankful for that. Please keep in mind that although Thomas is a vocal member of the club, he's not a spokesman for the club.

Thomas, please stop making me explain this to people.

[sillybizz]

I guess I forgot a smiley in that post. :headbang:

Sometimes my "humor" doesn't relate well to the internet or is it that my brain and my fingers don't mix well? Sorry, I was just giving you a hard time Michael. :kissflowers:

[The Ombudsman]

C'mon now, it's not that need to know.

From the most recent newsletter:



I think this is a great step forward. Anytime in the past, whenever people have suggested any kind of change, the answer has always been "Yeah that'll happen, as soon as somebody buys Herm out." It'd always been a hypothetical, but now Keith has stepped up and made it happen. The future looks bright.

Michael, I know you've done a lot of work out there, and we're all thankful for that. Please keep in mind that although Thomas is a vocal member of the club, he's not a spokesman for the club.

Thomas, please stop making me explain this to people.

Thanks Tim! Happy new year.

Hey Tom: instead of doing your best to try to alienate me, you should have hit me up for a donation.

[sillybizz]

:kissflowers:

Could we start over?

This is a question that needs asking again. I have heard that Herm has been bought out and Chainbangers has taken over.

Well???

Yes, Keith has bought out Herm and the club is now in charge of North Seatac Park's Disc Golf Course.

[Scott]

I don't know much about the weird history of Seattle disc golf politics, so can someone clue me in as to who Herm is and why he had to be bought out before anyone could do work at the course? It wasn't his course, was it? Didn't it belong to the city of Seattle? Strange happenings up north, I tell ya.

Just curious....

[Tim]

Long story short, Herm was the guy largely responsible for getting the course installed. When he did, there were contractual arrangements made.

[captain jack]

I don't know much about the weird history of Seattle disc golf politics, so can someone clue me in as to who Herm is and why he had to be bought out before anyone could do work at the course? It wasn't his course, was it? Didn't it belong to the city of Seattle? Strange happenings up north, I tell ya.

Just curious....

Well, as long as its a done deal.

Hermanson "owns" all the baskets, and he renewed the contract with the city every year.

So Keith had to buy the baskets, as well as renegotiate the contract.
Hopefully the rest of the plans can now move forward, and Seatac will go from being just challenging, to a true world class disc golf course. :yay:

[cefire]

Yeah, I'm super excited that a larger group of folks will be able to have input into this gem. The Chainbangers club is going to be doing a bit of fundraising this year to cover the up-front costs of purchasing the pins. Hopefully we'll be able to keep making this place better and better!

:)

[cefire]

Also, I'm not sure who thinks the holes at SeaTac are tight, but y'all might need to do some more traveling because the NW is just plain lacking wooded courses.

14 is like 90% air - nothing wrong with percentages. Hit the giant window off the tee and try to land in one of the two landing zones.

[sillybizz]

#14 isn't even the worst hole out there for that. Holes 8 and 11 come to mind way before #14.

[barbikes]

#14 isn't even the worst hole out there for that. Holes 8 and 11 come to mind way before #14.

I find 14 and 18 to be the most difficult but my strong throw is LHBH. Hole 8 is one of my faves because if I can make it through the gap in the four Xmas trees then I'm looking good for par or maybe a birdie attempt.
The mistake I see most golfers make on 11 is to try to make it over that line of barrier trees up on the step up. Most don't. I drive with my putter for precision and try to get it on the left side up on the step which gives me a good chance for a clear approach and a three on the hole.

Of course that's all just theory - Most of the time SeaTac still kicks my ass!

[Cinque]

I'm new to the area and I'm glad I started reading this old thread. It helps me with understanding the Seattle disc golf scene. So, correct me if I'm wrong.

Chainbangerz has an organized club and cares for Sea-Tac and Lakewood.
Terrace Creek was installed and is cared for by a disc golfer named Lowell, but there is no club. Silver Lake, Mineral Springs and Howling Coyote are just fun courses everyone visits once in a while, but Howling Coyote will be gone soon. The West Sound Association has all those courses under control. Um... Lake Stevens is supposed to be cool, but no club?

Is that basically it? There is no unified and organized Seattle disc golf club, or Washington disc golf club? There's only Chainbangerz club and West Sound Association?

Maybe I should have started a new thread.

[Skookum]

I hate to be the one to tell you this but...

don't believe everything posted on an internet forum to be the only truth.

That being said West Sound really does have their sh!t together.

[cefire]

Is that basically it? There is no unified and organized Seattle disc golf club, or Washington disc golf club? There's only Chainbangerz club and West Sound Association?

People have tried :whistler: but you'll find the area is plagued currently with intransigent personalities, jelousy, and more than a dash of player entitlement with a very, very low percentage of golfers willing to take initiative.

Sorry to be harsh, but thats the scene as I see it :wink2:

Second that West Sound (and Mason Co) is moving forward in a big way and Chainbangerz has made awesome progress in Seattle probably more in even just the past few months than has happened in a while. But you still find that unity isn't really the Seattle area way :)