Question about the various types of rocs..

[snap7times]

Ontario is understable
San Marino is straight
Rancho is slightly overstable
KC pro is a little more overstable than Rancho

What about
Classic Roc
Super Roc
and most importantly for my knowledge, the flat roc??

[Sam]

More overstable
More overstable
More overstable

Anything else? :D

[Sam]

Sorry... I could have added more.

Classic Roc - I don't throw a bunch so I would have to defer to someone who throws these. I do know that they are more stable than an Ontario.

Super Roc - these are also more overstable but you can definitely get over on them. They are probably most similar to a NEW KC Pro.

Flat Roc - this is the most stable of Rocs that I carry in my bag. I flip it and if I get the height and the snap right, it comes back perfectly every time. I also use this for short hyzer shots that most might throw a Gator at.

[Brian]

I carry 5 Rocs in my bag .. I took my classic Roc out because it was too overstable for what I wanted to do with them. I use my DX Roc for overstable stuffs. I have found my super Roc to be pretty overstable too, although not as bad as my classic. I only just got my Ontario so I haven't had much experience with it yet. but it seems to be overstable also. that could be because it is brand new.

I;m not sure about a flat roc .. not sure I know what that is. My Classic Roc seems very flat on top, much flatter than all my others.

I also like Valks and leopards. I have 5 leopards and at least 4 Valks that I carry everywhere. Different weights and types (pro, DX, champ, star etc..)

[Magilla]

I
I;m not sure about a flat roc .. not sure I know what that is.


Yea Sam ... WHAT is what you call a "Flat Roc" :whistler:

:rolleyes2:

[gwillim]

Yea Sam ... WHAT is what you call a "Flat Roc" :whistler:

:rolleyes2:

I'm assuming he's referring to Ching rocs.

[KenGilmore]

Maybe he means a Ching roc? Anyway, those start out tastey stable and season nicely to tastey understable! Mmm.

[Brian]

my KC Roc is super understable now. it is very beat up and I can wrap it right around trees and it won't even fade back when landing at all. It is awesome :)

[Sam]

I do mean the Ching Rocs... though I gave Jamie an understamp that is nearly as flat as the Chings I have.

Depending on the plastic of the Ontario, they get very overstable. I have a star that is still stable but a DX that I can practically flip to a roll.

[snap7times]

Okay... umm in comparison to a kc pro roc then. I throw my KC pro rocs straight with a little fade and sometimes it is not enough for me and actually turns over easily at 175g. Looking for something a tad more overstable than a 180g KC Pro Roc, is this ching roc more or less stable than the 180g KC pro Roc?

[Sam]

New, I would say it is more overstable, yes.

[Brian]

New, I would say it is more overstable, yes.

For overstable, i would use a DX Roc, they are cheap and work best for overstable .. IMO.

[Sam]

I believe Ching Rocs are $10 at most places - just a few bucks more and well worth it considering it is more overstable and will stay so for much longer.

[Magilla]

I'm assuming he's referring to Ching rocs.


;) Of course he is.....So why not just call it a "Ching Roc" :whistler:

:nahnah:

I have some SWEET one's from Worlds in '97

Still have not thrown this years "Ice Bowl KC Ching Roc"...:yay:
Looks AND feels awesome..

:cool2:

[snap7times]

Reason I asked is cuz Deaf nationals '09 is selling some for a fundraiser and wondered what their flight characteristic was supposed to be like. Guess I'll get one and throw it...

[Scott]

Ignorant question: What the hell is a ching roc?

[Eric Olson]

Ignorant question: What the hell is a ching roc?

full color stamp. the process flattens the dome hence "flat top"

[Flatroc]

Ignorant question: What the hell is a ching roc?

I think it's a roc that get's a lot of aces so they call it "ching".:chinscratch:
:whistler:

[Magilla]

full color stamp. the process flattens the dome hence "flat top"

:cheers:

Ding, Ding, Ding....We have a Winner...


:cheers:

[Flatroc]

;) Of course he is.....So why not just call it a "Ching Roc" :whistler::nahnah:

Not all "Ching Rocs" are flat and I've seen quite a few generic dx rocs that are flat as pancakes.:biggrin2:
The flatty rocs are really lousy discs and I wouldn't blame you for wanting to get rid of them. So, if anyone has any for sale or trade let me know. :whistler:

[Sam]

We are talking about an Innova disc, right? In other words, consider the flat Roc the screw-ups that they handed off to Ching to sell with a little co-branding. They are horrible, bad discs... and Yose doesn't need anymore! I DO! :laughing:

[snap7times]

As copied from the nationals website....

What made Ching Rocs special? We know...



It was the machine that applied the full-color stamps... Well, the full-color stamps are no longer available, but the machine that applied the stamps is!!!



Innova has agreed to run these Ranchos through that machine guaranteeing a true Flat Top Roc...

We asked and they said, "yes, but it will cost ya'."



Tired of digging thru stacks of Rocs for that perfect top? Want to stop ordering 5 to 10 discs just so you can get 1 that is "good enough"?



THIS IS THE ONLY PLACE YOU CAN GET THESE... FOR NOW.



Pay for one and get a flat one... Pay for two and get two flat ones... Pay for three and get three flat ones... you get the idea.



So here they are available for pre-order... You want a few? Pay now and we will give you first dibs in the order your order is received.



Disc color and stamp colors will vary...



Artwork by ZAM Designs.



Classification: Mid-Range Disc
Diameter: 21.7cm
Brief Description: THESE ARE FLAT TOPS - GUARANTEED - The number one professional mid-range disc. It is very reliable at the high speeds that pros throw. It ages slowly, becoming an excellent slow turning disc as it wears.
Best Choice for: Experienced players utility disc, hyzer shots, anhyzer shots, turnover shots when worn, sidearm approaches.



About the Roc
The Roc is simply the best, most versatile mid-range disc ever made. It provides accuracy at any range. This disc can take and hold the angle of release, even into a headwind. It can be used for driving, upshots, straight shots, hyzer shots or anhyzers. The Roc ages gradually and predictably. If you’re not sure what disc to throw, choose the Roc; just like most pros.



About INNOVA's DX Plastic
INNOVA’S DX Line is produced with Innova’s Deluxe plastic. The DX Line offers the widest selection of models and weights. DX discs wear in with usage and over time will eventually take on new and varied flight characteristics. Many top pros carry several DX discs of their favorite models to provide different flight patterns for different situations.

[TYVEK]

all the glow roc's are flat tops also. deffinately more overstable than kc's.

[Discmonster25455]

If your looking for more stability throw a champion classic roc.:D

[Parks]

Glow Rocs are really flat and have a great feel to them.

They are easier to find than Ching Rocs, and they also are pretty overstable when new.

I recommend getting a rotation going. Get an overstable DX Roc like a 180g Glow, and then when it starts to beat in then get a new one. Repeat until you have at least three of the same Rocs in different stages of wear, one overstable, one straight, and one turnover disc.

Your midrange game will thank you.

[papatart]

Or you could stop waiting to beat in that Roc to get it to fly like the "perfect Roc" and just get a Buzzz. If you are looking for that over stable Roc, then get a Wasp. You can get both of these in D, X, Z and ESP plastic (and the Buzzz in FLX) so your choices are huge and always available. How cool that you can buy one that will last and last and they don't cost 57.00 a piece. Neato!

Just remember, I'm not biased in any way

Scott Papa
PROUD MEMBER OF TEAM DISCRAFT

[Sam]

Yay - Team "We Stole Your Mold" Representin'! :laughing:

[Magilla]

PROUD MEMBER OF TEAM DISCRAP
:rolleyes2:

Me either......
:laughing:

Just shows that they will let ANYBODY on the "Team"

:laughing:
:cheers:

[snap7times]

I throw both buzzz and rocs. Just need something a lil more overstable for that shot you just need that fade at the end. Will get the flattop roc because of course fundraiser for Deaf Nationals, but I do have a Wasp but puny 166g, need 175-180g to try it out...

[snap7times]

:rolleyes2:

Me either......
:laughing:

Just shows that they will let ANYBODY on the "Team"

:laughing:
:cheers:

Whoa, thanks Magilla for removing our beer goggles and showing us what "Discraft" really spells... As for Papa, I wouldn't openly advertise that you are on their team. Dion is ok cuz he can defend himself with his three black belts and killer 360's. You, however, whom I have never met, but heard have pink hair, on a team.... *images popping up above my head* ohhhhhhh :evilgrin::laughing::angel:

Maybe that's why i like the JK avair, as in Just Kidding....

[Sam]

If you are looking for something more overstable than your Rocs, perhaps you should look into either a Whippet (crazy overstable) or a Gator. Both are like a short Monster/Firebird.

[Magilla]

Whoa, thanks Magilla for removing our beer goggles and showing us what "Discraft" really spells... As for Papa, I wouldn't openly advertise that you are on their team. Dion is ok cuz he can defend himself with his three black belts and killer 360's. You, however, whom I have never met, but heard have pink hair, on a team.... *images popping up above my head* ohhhhhhh :evilgrin::laughing::angel:

Maybe that's why i like the JK avair, as in Just Kidding....


:laughing:

Leave poor ol' Scott alone.... He likes his "Pink Hair", It lets people know where he is at all times. :whistler:


:shocked:

:cheers:

[Parks]

Or you could stop waiting to beat in that Roc to get it to fly like the "perfect Roc" and just get a Buzzz. If you are looking for that over stable Roc, then get a Wasp. You can get both of these in D, X, Z and ESP plastic (and the Buzzz in FLX) so your choices are huge and always available. How cool that you can buy one that will last and last and they don't cost 57.00 a piece. Neato!


There are a few problems with that setup that the Rocs don't have. Once the Wasp beats in, you put it on the wall because it now overlaps with your new Buzzzes. Then you have to buy a new Wasp anyway because the Buzzz can't fill that overstable mid role, even in the most stable premium plastics.

Not to mention that most midranges beat in slowly, so you want the baseline plastic that flies truer to the mold and you can grip it better in the rain/snow. DX feels better in the hand and beats in more consistently than Pro D. I've heard Discraft's most recent Pro D plastic feels like a better blend. I haven't thrown any of the newest Pro D yet, but it sounds promising at least.

Also, assuming Snap7times isn't a sponsored pro like yourself, he will benefit from minimizing his molds in order to throw more consistently and learn the discs over time. Most sponsored pros could throw a different mold for every shot on the course and still dominate us Ams, but its easier to get better using fewer molds.

DX Rocs last and last. I have one from 3 years ago that is still very useful as a turnover mid. A 3 year old Pro D or X Buzzz would be a roller or in the trash. I have never spent more than 10 dollars on a Roc in my bag, and I have never retired one because it became too squirrely. Neato!

[papatart]

:laughing:

Leave poor ol' Scott alone.... He likes his "Pink Hair", It lets people know where he is at all times. That way his caddie can sneak up on you and make sure you are not breaking the rules.
:whistler:

Its a good way to win events...when true skill cant get it done.
:shocked:

:cheers:

The following has no info on Rocs so if you want to skip it I understand...

Wow Mike, Don't know what I ever did to you to bring that on...I never understood why people love to try and bash people over the internet when they are really just speaking untruths. Maybe you are just bitter over the fact that for the last eight years your total winnings are only just over $2600 while I am nearing the $20,000 mark. I curse my unbelievably poor game and the lack of skill I can muster on any course.

Now the really funny thing is that I am running up my wins and winnings with what you consider to be inferior plastic. Maybe that is what angers you. Here I am with supposedly worse equipment and yet I have enough skill to play better than many people quite consistently.

The sad part is the fact that I was just having a little fun with this thread and trying to support one of my sponsors and giving people a little heads up about what Discraft offers. I will tell you that I own a pro shop on my course and give people tons of info on all makers of discs. And when someone asks me what the most popular disc is I will always say that if you go to a one disc tournament, more people will be throwing the Roc than probably all other discs combined. It is a great disc and always will be. No question about it.

I just know from being an old Roc thrower that I am way happier now knowing that I can pick any Buzzz out of the box and know that it will fly the same way every time. It doesn't matter about the mold changes or year produced. And even better, I don't have to season it to get it to throw like I want it to. It starts that way and stays that way and it's great because I and everyone else can get the premium plastic versions anywhere for normal prices.

Further, I found it a little sad that you, a moderator, would use a quote of mine in your reply and change the quote. It is something that shouldn't be allowed on the forum anyway but I find it in poor taste to represent what someone has posted inaccurately.

Lastly, yes, I do play by the rules and expect everyone else to at all times. It is how we know how to play the game. If you are not enforcing the rules while you play, then you are doing a disservice to those in an event who are following the rules. There is no rule in our ever-so-small book that should be overlooked and if you feel that "being discreet" makes it all good, I am sorry.

Sorry this happened on your Roc thread.....I will leave it alone from here on out.

Later,
Scott Papa
Team Discraft
Team Bite Shoes
Instructional Editor DiscGolfer Magazine

[papatart]

Yo Parks,

I agree that the D version beats in very fast, especially in the Northwest with all these tall thingies in the way. While both the D and X are available, I always advocate the Z and ESP versions of those discs. A Z or ESP disc gives you incredible life. I have never retired a Z or ESP disc based on performance. They always just get replaced due to the fact that I see a new color or dye job that I like.

However, not everyone likes the Z or ESP plastic so there is that also....

Bottom line, Roc's are great when you find that right one that suits your game. Just don't throw it where it might smack a tree at 50 MPH!

Later,
Papa

[TYVEK]

i have to agree with Papa here, i switched over from roc's to a Z wasp and a Z buzzz and have NEVER regreted the switch!! i originally switched because i was looking for a roc that was more overstable and wouldnt get bent out of shape after hitting a tree.

i throw my Z wasp tons of times every time i play and my wife and i are out at the course just about every day. i have hit hundreds of trees with my Z wasp and it STILL THROWS JUST LIKE A BRAND NEW ROC!!!

and like Papa said, i know that if i lose one of those discs i can just go buy a new one and the will fly the exact same way! no break in time needed. i have never had any inconsistancies with these discs when thrown. i would rather buy a Z wasp for 15 dollars once and have it last me years than spending 10 dollars per roc and buying 1 or 2 every year! dont even bother with X or D plastic, for longevity just get ESP or Z plastic.

[Sam]

If you like a Roc, of course you will like the Wasp. Same mold.

I wonder how that happened. :whistler:

[snap7times]

Yo Parks,

I agree that the D version beats in very fast, especially in the Northwest with all these tall thingies in the way. While both the D and X are available, I always advocate the Z and ESP versions of those discs. A Z or ESP disc gives you incredible life. I have never retired a Z or ESP disc based on performance. They always just get replaced due to the fact that I see a new color or dye job that I like.

However, not everyone likes the Z or ESP plastic so there is that also....

Bottom line, Roc's are great when you find that right one that suits your game. Just don't throw it where it might smack a tree at 50 MPH!

Later,
Papa

Nono, dont leave papa, this is a very educational and amusing thread at the same time. True we should not change other people's quotes except to make them bold and put an emphasis on what is being replied to... I am enjoying seeing what people have to say about the midrange game and all of that.
Now I throw these for my midrange game and hoping to find the disc between the Roc/overstable buzz and the gator...
180g KC pro roc
175g KC pro roc
173-178 Cryztal Buzzz
176g ESP FLX Buzzz
168g Z Buzzz
172g Star Gator
172g Star Gator
172g Pro Pig


and from what I gather, I should look into a 175-180g esp wasp and a flat top roc... right?

[snap7times]

Maybe have a midrange only tournament? Vendors that sell only innova and discraft midrange discs on site. Rules like, must have a minimum of 3 different molds, maximum 6 or 7; cannot throw the same disc until your 4th throw so that means you have to throw 2 other molds before going back to the 1st one... ideas ideas...

[TYVEK]

If you like a Roc, of course you will like the Wasp. Same mold.

I wonder how that happened. :whistler:

Actually they are not from the same mold. very similar but not the same.

and a quote that i love is this " innova made it first, but DISCRAFT makes it better!!!!:trophy: :laughing: :yay:


:nahnah:

[Sam]

:laughing:

I love humor. And the punch line about Discraft making it better... that is a good one. :laughing:

But you're right. They are not from the same mold. Rocs are from Innova's mold while the Wasp is from Discraft's mold that they stole from Innova. Similar down to every detail other than what the sign on the door outside the shop says.

[TYVEK]

i am glad that you can laugh! laughter is good for us all and keeps us healthy!!


i know from throwing both discraft and innova, that discraft makes a far superior plastic and they dont keep changing there formulas so the discs charachteristics always stay the same. that cannot be said about innova. they are constantly tweaking the mold and the plastic formula. and that makes for inconsitant discs.

as long as its better i dont care how discraft came up with the mold for the wasp. and any first grader can tell by just looking at a wasp and a roc that the mold is different.

so you keep throwing your inferior discs and i will throw the better stuff(discraft) and i will wave at you as i pass you by on the superhighway of tournament winnings and player ratings.:seeya:

[jevon]

Sam probably thinks the Aviar P&A and Warlock are the same mold too...

[jevon]

Roc(Rancho):
Detailed information
Diameter 21,7 cm
Maximum weight 180,1 gram
Height 2,0 cm
Rim depth 1,3 cm
Inside rim diameter 19,3 cm
Rim thickness 1,2 cm
Rim depth/ Diameter ratio 6,0 %
Rim configuration ratio 43,00
Flexibility rating 8,51

Roc(San Marino):
Detailed information
Diameter 21,2 cm
Maximum weight 176,0 gram
Height 2,0 cm
Rim depth 1,2 cm
Inside rim diameter 19,4 cm
Rim thickness 0,9 cm
Rim depth/ Diameter ratio 5,7 %
Rim configuration ratio 42,75
Flexibility rating 8,96

Wasp:
Detailed information
Diameter 21,6 cm
Maximum weight 179,3 gram
Height 1,8 cm
Rim depth 1,3 cm
Inside rim diameter 19,2 cm
Rim thickness 1,2 cm
Rim depth/ Diameter ratio 6,0 %
Rim configuration ratio 37,00
Flexibility rating < 8,39

One would think if it was the same mold the numbers would match up. Hmmm...

[Sam]

:rolleyes:

It is a foolish magician who thinks that the company who makes his magic wand has any import on the magic he produces with it.

If Discraft is responsible for your 886 player rating, I would say you should BLAME them, not credit them.

Just my $.02

:cheers:

[Sam]

Jevon, can you get the info for the rest of the types of Rocs - specifically DX and KC Pro?

[jevon]

Jevon, can you get the info for the rest of the types of Rocs - specifically DX and KC Pro?
Both of those were DX, but here is the list I was using as reference.

http://www.discgolfsweden.se/discar/discar_sokres_eng.aspx?Purpose=-1&Manufacturer=-1&DiscLine=-1&Type=Roc

KC Pro 10x/11x:
Detailed information
Diameter 21,7 cm
Maximum weight 180,1 gram
Height 2,0 cm
Rim depth 1,3 cm
Inside rim diameter 19,3 cm
Rim thickness 1,2 cm
Rim depth/ Diameter ratio 6,0 %
Rim configuration ratio 43,00
Flexibility rating 8,51

[Sam]

Cool. Can you also get the Super Roc and the Classic Roc? We are getting closer and closer to the Wasp numbers. SE Super Roc looks VERY close, actually.

Oh... and is it possible that Innova tweaked their mold after it became apparent that Discraft stole the mold of the Roc? :whistler:

[Magilla]

The following has no info on Rocs so if you want to skip it I understand...

Wow Mike, Don't know what I ever did to you to bring that on...I never understood why people love to try and bash people over the internet when they are really just speaking untruths. Maybe you are just bitter over the fact that for the last eight years your total winnings are only just over $2600 while I am nearing the $20,000 mark. I curse my unbelievably poor game and the lack of skill I can muster on any course.

Now the really funny thing is that I am running up my wins and winnings with what you consider to be inferior plastic. Maybe that is what angers you. Here I am with supposedly worse equipment and yet I have enough skill to play better than many people quite consistently.

The sad part is the fact that I was just having a little fun with this thread and trying to support one of my sponsors and giving people a little heads up about what Discraft offers. I will tell you that I own a pro shop on my course and give people tons of info on all makers of discs. And when someone asks me what the most popular disc is I will always say that if you go to a one disc tournament, more people will be throwing the Roc than probably all other discs combined. It is a great disc and always will be. No question about it.

I just know from being an old Roc thrower that I am way happier now knowing that I can pick any Buzzz out of the box and know that it will fly the same way every time. It doesn't matter about the mold changes or year produced. And even better, I don't have to season it to get it to throw like I want it to. It starts that way and stays that way and it's great because I and everyone else can get the premium plastic versions anywhere for normal prices.

Further, I found it a little sad that you, a moderator, would use a quote of mine in your reply and change the quote. It is something that shouldn't be allowed on the forum anyway but I find it in poor taste to represent what someone has posted inaccurately.

Lastly, yes, I do play by the rules and expect everyone else to at all times. It is how we know how to play the game. If you are not enforcing the rules while you play, then you are doing a disservice to those in an event who are following the rules. There is no rule in our ever-so-small book that should be overlooked and if you feel that "being discreet" makes it all good, I am sorry.

Sorry this happened on your Roc thread.....I will leave it alone from here on out.

Later,
Scott Papa
Team Discraft
Team Bite Shoes
Instructional Editor DiscGolfer Magazine

:slapface: :headbang:

Sheesh......
Didnt intend to push THAT button, Scott. I said we LIKE your pink hair. :o

I agree I made a poor choice posting what I did and for that Im sorry AND have edited them...sort of.
:wink2:

My "winnings" vs. yours have no bearing in this discussion.
Nor does my willingness to follow the "Rules" AND enforce them.
In my years of promoting Ive learned alot about "Ethics"
I have NO problem of making sure people follow the rules BUT as a player I surely will not go out "looking" for violators.
You break the rules in my presence, we will have an issue. There is NO question about that.
When a "Marshall" that my job, as a player, Im trying to play my best.


If I was able to play even a fraction of the time that you can, I would be a bit more "accomplished" in my game.
Its unfortunate that you are not reg'd for BSF. I would have enjoyed the challenge.
Why is it that you dont play any local large events? Masters Cup? BSF? :chinscratch:

Its great that you own your own course AND that you have a Pro Shop, etc. That a dream that MOST DiscGolfers have but will never achieve.
With all that time to practice, shouldnt you have earned so much more than $20,000...whats that about $1000 per year.
Its fine that you can attack my game...BUT Discrap still SUX...:nahnah:
Care to throw some distance sometime. :laughing:
I'll assure you YOU would be the looser on that test of skill.

:seeya:

[Sean Phillips]

My take on the subject: (if you care to know)

I tried switching to all discraft at one point due to the frustrating ever changing innova discs. At the time I was throwing Eagles, Orcs, Rocs, XD's. I bought Tracker, Avenger, Surge, Wasp, Buzzz, and Breeze. I probably didn't give my discraft bag a long enough chance (about a month) but I was having a lot of trouble finding a disc to fly the way I wanted. My distance suffered, my accuracy suffered. :pullhair::waaah:

If I found a need for a midrange more stable than a 180 KC roc then I'd throw an X or Z Wasp. If you like champion rocs, go pick up a Z Wasp, Seriously :cool: They're extremely similar and the Wasp is ~$85 less. :rockon:

[Parks]

i know from throwing both discraft and innova, that discraft makes a far superior plastic and they dont keep changing there formulas so the discs charachteristics always stay the same. that cannot be said about innova. they are constantly tweaking the mold and the plastic formula. and that makes for inconsitant discs.

so you keep throwing your inferior discs and i will throw the better stuff(discraft) and i will wave at you as i pass you by on the superhighway of tournament winnings and player ratings.:seeya:

I never understood why people believe "X manufacturer's discs are superior" and stick to one brand, unless of course they are sponsored.

Its sad when people believe the hype.

If you think that any one manufacturer makes perfectly consistent discs, then you are only kidding yourself.

For Discraft, you need to look no further than the Force or the Flash to see two discs that can be all over the stability spectrum out of the box. Innova and Gateway of course have their consistency problems as well.

You are only limiting yourself by blinding believing in one manufacturer's product instead of throwing the best molds for your power level.

[Discmonster25455]

Not to get off track here but just try playing with a champ classic roc. I think what ur looking for is there just ask Dion.

[Scott]

If I found a need for a midrange more stable than a 180 KC roc then I'd throw an X or Z Wasp. If you like champion rocs, go pick up a Z Wasp, Seriously :cool: They're extremely similar and the Wasp is ~$85 less. :rockon:

I love my z-wasp. Feels like a roc in my hand, flies more stable. It's been a go-to disc in my bag for over a year and a half, and still feels like new.
And it doesn't hurt that ChUcK put a sick OSU Beaver dye on it. :biggrin2:

[TYVEK]

If Discraft is responsible for your 886 player rating, I would say you should BLAME them, not credit them.

Just my $.02

:cheers:

i can explain that player rating. :( that was from last year, i have really been working on all parts of my game over the winter and have improved. my playing ability has only improved after switching to discraft, because i know what each disc is going to do every time i throw it. i could not say that about other discs that i threw before discraft.

it works best for me and to me thats the bottom line.

[Matt B.]

i can explain that player rating. :( that was from last year, i have really been working on all parts of my game over the winter and have improved. my playing ability has only improved after switching to discraft, because i know what each disc is going to do every time i throw it. i could not say that about other discs that i threw before discraft.

it works best for me and to me thats the bottom line.

Not to get embroiled in the manufacturer debate, BUT

"my playing ability has only improved after switching to discraft, because i know what each disc is going to do every time i throw it. i could not say that about other discs that i threw before discraft."

Are you saying that your non-Discraft discs changed flight characteristics from one throw to another? No matter what brand you throw, achieving consistent flight patterns is strictly a matter of knowing your discs and having consistent and hopefully good form. I've heard the argument that one manufacturer has more consistent discs from one production run to another, but I've never heard anyone say that their individual discs actually changed character from one throw to another. Obviously, if you slam into a tree you may see some change, but I think this is true for all manufacturers to varying degrees depending on type of plastic.

When I throw off line with a disc I know, I tend to blame my form or my decision, not the disc.

[TYVEK]

Not to get embroiled in the manufacturer debate, BUT

"my playing ability has only improved after switching to discraft, because i know what each disc is going to do every time i throw it. i could not say that about other discs that i threw before discraft."

Are you saying that your non-Discraft discs changed flight characteristics from one throw to another? No matter what brand you throw, achieving consistent flight patterns is strictly a matter of knowing your discs and having consistent and hopefully good form. I've heard the argument that one manufacturer has more consistent discs from one production run to another, but I've never heard anyone say that their individual discs actually changed character from one throw to another. Obviously, if you slam into a tree you may see some change, but I think this is true for all manufacturers to varying degrees depending on type of plastic.

When I throw off line with a disc I know, I tend to blame my form or my decision, not the disc.

i had a couple discs that were very "touchy" for me. i dont have perfect technique or form, i will say that first. these discs would not literally change from one throw to another, but even at the slightest change in throwing angle they would either go way off to the right or off to the left. and sometimes they would just go straight:yay: so since i dont have perfect form i cant rely on a disc that is going to go haywire on me at just a little flaw in my throw. i have never had that problem with any discraft disc. i still have flaws in my throws, but the flight of the discs are still rock steady and wont go any which way they have a mind to. they will go slightly off course but nothing compared to the other discs i used to throw.

[Ol' Bob]

...they would either go way off to the right or off to the left. and sometimes they would just go straight...

For much the same experience, why I like FLX Buzzzes. Throw 'em hard, they'll go straight.

[Sam]

User error. You don't like Innova because of user error. And you think that Discraft doesn't get affected by user error.

Well, I could not disagree more. I completely agree with Matt that when I throw a disc I know and it goes awry, I do not write nasty letters to Rancho Cucomonga and complain about their manufacturing process.

Then again... I am not a pro so I am not in the habit of blaming everyone and everything else for my poor play, completing ignoring the fact that this is all my responsibility. :whistler:

[TYVEK]

User error. You don't like Innova because of user error. And you think that Discraft doesn't get affected by user error.

Well, I could not disagree more. I completely agree with Matt that when I throw a disc I know and it goes awry, I do not write nasty letters to Rancho Cucomonga and complain about their manufacturing process.

Then again... I am not a pro so I am not in the habit of blaming everyone and everything else for my poor play, completing ignoring the fact that this is all my responsibility. :whistler:



uhhhh sam, before you go spouting of posts like this, you should really read the post your responding to. maybe you should read them 2 or 3 times just so you get it right. i admited i have errors, i also admited that my discraft discs are affected by MY errors, but not NEARLY like other discs i have thrown. discraft is just more reliable.

you see if you would have just read my post a couple times then you would not even had to write your post and waste your valuable time. :cheers:

[Sam]

I did read your post. I still disagree. I do not think that Discraft errors less than Innova and think that this is entirely in your mind. If it works for you, great. Religion works for some people, too, despite the obviousness of the falsities contained therein.

:cheers:

[Tim]

FWIW, I find higher speed/wider rim discs to be the squirreliest, most nose angle sensitive discs, regardless of manufacturer. I'd have a lot more faith in a Teebird or XL following my intended line than a Destroyer or Force. I do think Discraft is more consistent from run to run, but that being said, my FLX Surge was one of the most unpredictable discs I've ever had.

[Parks]

Tim is right that wider rim discs are generally more nose angle sensitive. Also, understable discs tend to get squirrely as they beat in.

Tyvek, what Innova discs were you throwing that you found unpredictable and what Discraft discs are you throwing now?

Just making sure we're talking apples to apples. Comparing a beat Pro Orc's predictability to a Z Predator's predictability isn't really the same thing. Same with comparing a beat Surge SS to a Champ Firebird.

[TYVEK]

Tim is right that wider rim discs are generally more nose angle sensitive. Also, understable discs tend to get squirrely as they beat in.

Tyvek, what Innova discs were you throwing that you found unpredictable and what Discraft discs are you throwing now?

Just making sure we're talking apples to apples. Comparing a beat Pro Orc's predictability to a Z Predator's predictability isn't really the same thing. Same with comparing a beat Surge SS to a Champ Firebird.


the discs i was having issues with was a kc pro Roc (after being thrown for around 9 months), a champion Wraith, and a champion starfire. my biggest issue was with the Roc. the rest of my discs at that time were ok. my T-bird was my most dependable disc! and it is still in my bag because i havent found a suitable replacement for it yet.

here is what i currently carry in my bag.
DGA rogue (discraft plastic)
Z Crush
2 ESP pulses
Z avenger
ESP avenger ss
Z Reaper
Z Xpress (possible replacment for the Tbird)
Champion Tbird
Z Wasp
Z Buzzz
ESP Buzzz
3 Quest AT crossfire putters.

[snap7times]

Try the Z Talon in place of the Teebird maybe?

[Parks]

If you are throwing a Champ Wraith and a Champ Starfire, you need about 370+ feet of power to make them fly correctly. A Wraith is supposed to be a turnover distance driver, and a Starfire is supposed to be a long, straight disc with a reliable fade

You may not have the power to correctly throw these discs. The Pulse would fall into this category too. Without the right power, they are meathooks unless you add a bunch of off-axis torque to compensate. This is an unpredictable way to throw a disc unless you know how to use it wisely like the Pros do.

The Teebird is one of the most dependable discs in the game, and it is a straight disc with reliable fade for almost all power levels. I wouldn't replace it with anything from Discraft. Discraft used to make a good Teebird competitor called the X2, but they discontinued it because it didn't sell despite being a great disc.

I bet your problem is less Innova vs. Discraft rather than choosing the right discs for your game.

[TYVEK]

If you are throwing a Champ Wraith and a Champ Starfire, you need about 370+ feet of power to make them fly correctly. A Wraith is supposed to be a turnover distance driver, and a Starfire is supposed to be a long, straight disc with a reliable fade

You may not have the power to correctly throw these discs. The Pulse would fall into this category too. Without the right power, they are meathooks unless you add a bunch of off-axis torque to compensate. This is an unpredictable way to throw a disc unless you know how to use it wisely like the Pros do.

The Teebird is one of the most dependable discs in the game, and it is a straight disc with reliable fade for almost all power levels. I wouldn't replace it with anything from Discraft. Discraft used to make a good Teebird competitor called the X2, but they discontinued it because it didn't sell despite being a great disc.



Hi Parks,

i want to thank you for the information you gave me. it seems that you are really trying to be helpful instead of just opinionated and i appreciate that.


I bet your problem is less Innova vs. Discraft rather than choosing the right discs for your game.

i want to clear this up just a little. I dont have any problems with the discs that Innova makes. there are some molds that are Fantastic discs and i really miss them. my problem with Innova is the plastic that they use in their discs. it is always changing from run to run. my frustration is "why cant they just stick to one formula per plastic???" i mean you take a KC 10X Roc and it is a different blend of plastic than the KC12X Roc. WHY! why cant they just have one blend of plastic for all KC Pro discs?
then there is the Boss. a First run boss is more understable than a felberg signature Boss. why? Innova once had what some say is the "perfect" plastic, the CE plastic. why cant they just make all "champion" discs out of CE plastic, and stop changing it? i tell you if innova would stop messing about with different plastic blends from run to run and just find the best blend and stick with it i would probably throw their discs again.


that is my BIG and only frustration with Innova. and after reading the "ask Dave" thread on the PDGA discusion board it doesnt give me any comfort at all. he even told people that one run of disc is not going to be like another run! if the president of the company doesnt seem to care about consistancy in his plastic, then i dont want to support them.
Discraft does not change blends of plastic. they have found great plastic and they stick with it. that means that a new buzzz made 3 years ago will fly the exact same way that a new buzzz made today will straight off the shelf. i wish Discraft had some different molds, but the consistancy in their plastic is why i support them.


sorry this is so long and sorry to have taken this thread so far off the original topic.

[Sam]

Out of curiosity... how do you know that Discraft never changes their plastic?

[Ol' Bob]

Tastes great.





















































Less filing.

[Magilla]

Out of curiosity... how do you know that Discraft never changes their plastic?

Of course they do....Just not nearly as often as Innova HAS too.

Reason being is that in "reality" Innova makes & sells SO MANY more discs than Discraft that it is difficult to find Supplies to meet the demand.

Most people would be SHOCKED to know the actual numbers.

Innova actually sells more than 2 to 1 of ALL OTHER manufacturers COMBINED.
:shocked:

CE went away because it just could be obtained anymore.......:drool:

:cheers:

[Parks]

Discraft does not change blends of plastic.

I agree with you that manufacturers need more consistency in their plastics and molding processes.

However, Discraft DOES change their blends.

Don't take my word for it. Check it out for yourself.

I'll use the Predator as an example since that is a disc I throw and am very familiar with.

Find a first run ESP Predator. They are all pretty stiff. Now find any other ESP Predator, and they are pretty flexy. It feels like they blended some FLX into the mix.

Find an opaque, pearly Z Predator, then a transparent one. They definitely feel very different. This could be a different blend, or just a different amount of the weighting agent. Either way, they are not a consistent plastic from disc to disc.

There are older Predators that definitely have a different Z blend. It is opaque and not glossy at all like most current Z. It looks like Star or ESP and feels like grippy CE plastic, though not quite as durable. This stuff is great, but its yet another definite blend of Z.

Some Z Predators have a dome so sunken and flat that it pulls the rim so tight that it flies very overstable, though that just may be a cooling difference rather than a different plastic blend.

These variations are very similar to the ones you see in KC Pro Roc runs.

I have heard that first run Predators are actually Tsunamis or another slightly less stable Predator, so even Discraft changes molds without renaming discs.

The bottom line: No manufacturer makes 100% consistent plastic blends, and all manufacturers will have some flight variation within the same molds. They test new blends and new techniques in order to improve their discs, and most advances in disc technologies have happened through experimentation.

The even more bottomer line: its all in your head if you think one manufacturer always makes consistent discs and others do not. Throw discs, not brands :D

[Magilla]

Hi Parks,

that is my BIG and only frustration with Innova. and after reading the "ask Dave" thread on the PDGA discusion board it doesnt give me any comfort at all. he even told people that one run of disc is not going to be like another run! if the president of the company doesnt seem to care about consistancy in his plastic, then i dont want to support them.

sorry this is so long and sorry to have taken this thread so far off the original topic.

:chinscratch:
Different "runs" of ANY disc will change depending on the exact conditions.
Temp., Humidity, etc all play a factor in how a specific "run" ends up.

How fast did it cool...How Hot was the plastic/mold upon injection of the plastic.

Until Discs are made in "Clean Rooms" under controlled conditions they will NEVER be consistant, regardless of the manufacturer.

:cheers:

[Brian]

I tried to force myself to use Discraft for quite a while. I couldn't get the distance out of it that I could out of Innova discs. Or Quest discs for that matter. I have more quest discs in my bag than I do Discraft. For some reason I just can't get discraft to do what I want. The Wasp I love. The Z Talon I want to love, but I can't get the distance out of it, it just turns too soon and I have a pretty good wrist flick .. or at least i did before I hurt my shoulder. I might put together a bag of only discraft and force myself to use them for a month and see how it works, but when it comes down to taking some discs out of my bag it always seems to be the Discraft discs that go for some reason. I have no reason to be partial except for experience, I have no ties to either company and I don't read DG magazines or industry hype or anything.

It seems there is always an Innova equivalent that I can throw farther and more consistent... dunno why.

[zippyboy]

Wow. Everybody getting so worked up over mid-range discs. I always thought it was the putters we should be getting all worked up over.

Anyway, since everyone else is slingin' mud in this one, I want to join in...

Scott Papa = loyal to Discraft. Makes sense. He's sponsored by them.

Sam = loyal to Innova. Makes less sense. He's not sponsored by them. (Seems kind of like pledging loyalty to a higher power to me - viewed as pointless by some. Curious.)

More on the current topic, though, I love me a Buzzz. I have seven. Tried the Rocs for awhile, but never found one that worked for me. I don't fault the Roc for that, it just doesn't work for my game. Ok. Instead of the Wasp, I tend to use the Drone. I can get a Buzzz to do most anything that a Wasp can (for me), but the Drone works when I need a hard fade.

Overall, I carry a mixed bag of manufacturers. Discraft, Innova, Gateway, and Lightning. Each disc that I carry serves its purpose for me, and I feel no loyalty to one company over another. All I am looking for is a disc that feels good in my hands, one that I can throw consistently, and one that hopefully won't be discontinued anytime soon (in case I lose said disc in the murky waters of Trojan, or under a fern at the Mud).

If I were ever able to get good enough at this sport (let's not kid ourselves, that will never happen) to get sponsored, I would hope to play for Gateway. Allowing players to use a mixed bag? Awesome.

Awaiting the arrival of mud - hopefully its lucky...

~Z

[JMan]

Everyone knows I'm partial to Discraft, but that's me, and my game. I promote using any disc that works for your game regardless of manufacturer. But, I will throw a curve this threads way; what weights are you throwing? Chances are most folks all buy into the "heavier is better," but Parks is right, some molds need lots of D to fly their intended line. However, if you want to lower that number, cut some weight. Personally I believe you are throwing too many molds. The cool and fun part of this whole discussion is trying to find the right combination of molds and weights means you'll be on the course with purpose, so have fun finding the combinations that work for you.
GO TEAM OLY!
J

[TYVEK]

If I were ever able to get good enough at this sport (let's not kid ourselves, that will never happen) to get sponsored, I would hope to play for Gateway. Allowing players to use a mixed bag? Awesome.

~Z


Hey Zippy,

there is some hope for you! a guy here in olympia just received a partial sponsorship from gateway, and he just moved up to the advanced division this year and has a player rating under 900. he was telling me that Dave from gateway really wants to start making an impact in the northwest and is looking for people interested in throwing their plastic. So you should give Dave Mccormack a call and see if you can get in on it.

[TYVEK]

I had thought that the information that i had gotten was right because it was confirmed from 3 locations- magazine article written by previous employee of innova, website info, and a conversation with two pros that have been around both innova and discrafts factorys.
But i do know that there are ALWAYS two sides to every story, and it looks like i am getting more info on the other side of this one here. I admit that i am learning more and that is good. A BIG THANKS TO PARKS!! it is great to read what you guys have seen and experienced first hand and are willing to share.

there is some really good info going out here now that the initial Discraft vs. Innova "heat" has died down. now with this new information it will definately change my conversations from "discraft is perfect", to "i like discraft...... until further notice" :biggrin2:


here are some questions that i have.
magilla wrote Until Discs are made in "Clean Rooms" under controlled conditions they will NEVER be consistant, regardless of the manufacturer.
Why cant Manufacureres (spelling?) just do this? it cant be that difficult to make a climate controlled room for making discs. if it makes a more consistant mold, why not!?

Magilla wrote CE went away because it just could be obtained anymore.......
Why cant it be obtained anymore??? any plastic that was once made can be remade, unless they were very unorganized and unresponsible and did not make record of the components of the plastic blend. any good lab will document every ingredient in any experiment or product they make. if this is the case, then why not just remake CE plastic?


Brian wrote I tried to force myself to use Discraft for quite a while.

i like discraft discs, but i dont understand why you force yourself to use them? why force yourself to use any single companys discs? it is one thing to throw them because you like them and they are right for you, but i dont think anybody should force themselves to throw anything.

[TYVEK]

Everyone knows I'm partial to Discraft, but that's me, and my game. I promote using any disc that works for your game regardless of manufacturer. But, I will throw a curve this threads way; what weights are you throwing? Chances are most folks all buy into the "heavier is better," but Parks is right, some molds need lots of D to fly their intended line. However, if you want to lower that number, cut some weight. Personally I believe you are throwing too many molds. The cool and fun part of this whole discussion is trying to find the right combination of molds and weights means you'll be on the course with purpose, so have fun finding the combinations that work for you.
GO TEAM OLY!
J


I am throwing anything between 167-175. it varys between discs. honestly i try and stay closer to 170, but i am not going to go and buy a bunch of 170g discs. i dont have that kind of money. i have aquired most of my bag from trades and stuff. it is easy to get Discraft from people! :shocked::D

i have been cutting down on my molds as time goes on and i find the best discs for me. i still have some to go, for instance i dont really need the pulse and the crush. only time will tell me which one i prefer.

[zippyboy]

Tyvek, thanks for the info! I have been bugging Dave to do another run of the Organic Wizards (I need two more at 175g). Maybe I'll see if he would be interested in sponsoring an event up here or something... Also, if there is anything you are looking for in trade, let me know. I have stockpiled a stupid amount of discs that I am not throwing.

JMan, good point about the weights. I throw low 170s (up to 175g), mostly, with a couple of discs in the high 160s. I have a 150g DX TeeRex that I use for hammer throws, too. I just found that I was flipping most of the discs below 170 more often than I would like. Is that more my style of throwing than anything else? Just curious...

~Z

[Tim]

I just happened to be reading a thread about weights and whatnot on DGR (http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11733&st=0&sk=t&sd=a) the other day, here's what Blake T. has to say:

heavier discs have greater angular momentum/inertia.

snap isn't caused by that. snap is caused by plyometric extension of the wrist going from a fully cocked to a slightly open position. how "strong" you can be when you snap it is limited to what your hand is strong enough to grip and exert control over.

it's the similar idea with baseball bats. if the bat is too heavy, it gets going and just sorta flails out as the bat head momentum exerts force on your muscles. if the bat is within your controllable weight, you can wave it around like a stick while your muscles exert force on the bat.

people throwing under 430' line drives should not be throwing max weight drivers (except for specialized situations) and generally people throwing over 430' line drives need max weight drivers for the added stability.

...

in general, a rule of thumb...
for people who throw fairway drivers:
200' or less:
putters up to 172g
midrange up to 170g
fairway drivers 145-165g
distance drivers shouldn't be in their bag

250':
putters up to 175g
midrange up to 172g
fairway drivers 160-169g
distance drivers up to 166g

300'
midrange up to 175g
fairway drivers up to 172g
distance drivers up to 169g

350'
distance drivers up to 172g

425'
midrange up to 180g
fairway drivers up to 175-176g
distance drivers up to 175-176g

[snap7times]

Sounds right, I use most drivers in the 168-172g range. Midrange 172-180. Putters 172/175.

[Sam]

Sam = loyal to Innova. Makes less sense. He's not sponsored by them. (Seems kind of like pledging loyalty to a higher power to me - viewed as pointless by some. Curious.)

Mitch... Pffffft. Please point out where I gave any indication that I was loyal to Innova. I said the Wasp mold was stolen by Discraft from the Roc mold. I am not the first to say this nor will I be the last. I also stated that Discraft being generally better plastic or more consistent in flight is a fantasy.

I thought you were a Philosophy buff? Rebuking one philosophy does not automatically equate with embracing the opposing philosophy.

[Ol' Bob]

I seem to have inadvertently settled into my proper weight range too.

[zippyboy]

Sam - Fair enough. Philosophy buff? Hardly. And would never proclaim such, either. Fairly well read? Maybe.

To your point, my perception of you bashing one company while continuously praising another was viewed as loyalty. Good to know that you could turn on them on a dime, were it your wish.

Presented with the numbers regarding the Roc and the Wasp, the urban legend of the Wasp being the "stolen mold" fails. Besides, were it true, would it matter? Ask the "creators" of the Snuggie. They weren't the first, but the money it has made them probably helps them not to give a second thought to not being the originator.

A blanket with arms? Jesus. What next?

(please don't answer that)

[Sam]

To your point, my perception of you bashing one company while continuously praising another was viewed as loyalty. Good to know that you could turn on them on a dime, were it your wish.

Oooh... you a Wizard of Oz fan or you just really like Straw Men? :) I never said I would turn on them on a dime nor do I feel that I have bashed Discraft.

Presented with the numbers regarding the Roc and the Wasp, the urban legend of the Wasp being the "stolen mold" fails.

I quite disagree. The numbers are similar enough to convince me that this did actually happen and then the two companies tweaked after the fact.

Besides, were it true, would it matter?

Not to me. I think the Roc is a better disc, regardless. :)

[snap7times]

Settle down boys and girls... Mid Range only tournament anyone??

[Sam]

Feh... Mitch and I are good, Nate. I promise that neither of us would take any comments about frisbees personally. :)

[zippyboy]

Apparently my affection for the Straw Man is similar to your taste for Red Herring. But, I digress.

As is common we disagree on this, too. I have no use for either the Roc or the Wasp. To me, the Buzzz is more superior than either. However, obviously, your mileage may vary.

To snap's question, I would love a mid-range tourney. I would prefer it be only a single disc tourney as well. Despite my love of the Buzzz, were this to ever happen locally, I might just break out my old DX Goblin for the event. Man I used to love that disc....

[zippyboy]

Sam is right. We don't see enough of each other in person to get out jabs in then, so we have to do it here. Besides, I don't know of a more formidable sparring partner....

[Sam]

:cheers: Back at ya, Mitch.

Roc vs. Buzz at dawn! :laughing:

A one-disc, mid-range only tournament would be fun. Should include putters, though. I might decide to throw an XD all day. :whistler:

[JMan]

Single disc tourney ... well it's a bit early but the 2nd Annual Hobbit Huk will be happening again this October. One Disc to rule them all ...

[snap7times]

Actually, I was thinking of more like can use like up to 5 different midrange discs but cannot use the same one twice in 3 throws, so 1st, 4th, 7th throw can be with same disc. Force you to play around with other midrange discs and can use one for putting but it cannot be a putter. Good way for you to use a variety of midrange discs, even borrow from the other players on the card etc... That way you can give more discs a try etc... If limit to less than 3, wont get a chance to try out discs and maybe develop a liking for another type of disc etc etc etc....
I would probably bring a
168 z buzzz
180 kc pro roc
176 esp flx buzzz
???? Flat top roc???
???? Z Wasp????

[Brian]

"Brian wrote
Quote:
I tried to force myself to use Discraft for quite a while
.

i like discraft discs, but i dont understand why you force yourself to use them? why force yourself to use any single companys discs? it is one thing to throw them because you like them and they are right for you, but i dont think anybody should force themselves to throw anything."



When I say force .. that means take discs I do not normally use and just put those in my bag instead of my old stand-bys. It's not like I am trying to force myself to eat onions without puking.

And on that weight chart .. that is funny how accurate that is. I throw about 300-350ish and I have found that max weight just doesn't do it right for me. I pretty much fit right into that chart. Except the putter/mids .. not sure it really makes much difference under 200 feet. I could use a 200 weight under 200 feet and be fine. I throw my max weight Rocs just fine and they are 180ish.

[TreeLove]

Single disc tourney ... well it's a bit early but the 2nd Annual Hobbit Huk will be happening again this October. One Disc to rule them all ...

WHEN? I NEED DATES, MAN!!!

Oh, excuse me, did I say that out loud?

[Ol' Bob]

Anyone using a MacroTheft operating system here? Mold stealing has got to be the rule anymore.

[topdawgy58]

So which Roc has a Skull on it? And where can I get one. I had a beat up one and lost it. It was my number one Disc. It was broken in nicely, and I used it for my approach shots.