limited fields?????? dealing with growing pains

[Flatroc]

First off, I want to see as many people attend an event as that event allows.
I notice that quite a few times gigs say that they are limiting the field but in fact go over their said limits.
This is good for the peeps who still may get in, but maybe not so good for the folks who signed up knowing/thinking the field would limited.
I'm totally aware that full gigs, waiting on tee pads, ghost groups, is more of the norm these days, but, I'm also trying to come up with ways that this doesn't happen as much.
I've found that by sticking to a commitment of limited fields, there is less waiting on tee pads.
I believe it is much more fair for the folks who "got in the limt'" to get to play without the longer waits, as it would be for the extra folks who are now in and forcing longer waits.
We stuck to our limits last year at WBDS and will again.
There were even teams who drove down from PDX thinking they might still get in if they showed up.
That was one of my worst times as a TD to tell them I'm sorry we are sticking to our format for the sake of the rest of the field.

[Sam]

If you put it out there and people don't pay attention enough to sign up before the field maxes out, you really have nothing to feel bad about, Yose. There are definitely people who want no part in 5somes or ghost groups or waiting on pads and those who sign up early with the belief that they will not have to deal with this would be getting screwed more by you being a nice guy than the people who couldn't bother to sign up on time.

Stick to your guns. People will eventually get it that you mean to limit field sizes.

My two cents, anyway.

[Bullseye]

If you put it out there and people don't pay attention enough to sign up before the field maxes out, you really have nothing to feel bad about, Yose. There are definitely people who want no part in 5somes or ghost groups or waiting on pads and those who sign up early with the belief that they will not have to deal with this would be getting screwed more by you being a nice guy than the people who couldn't bother to sign up on time.

Stick to your guns. People will eventually get it that you mean to limit field sizes.

My two cents, anyway.

I agree completely. I HATE five-somes and I can't stand ghost groups. The only time I can tolerate a ghost group is if there is really long hole that can accommodate both groups before the following group makes it to the tee pad. Otherwise it always feels like you're starting a tourney with a back-up.

As much as I hate to say it... we're reaching critical mass, and it looks like the only option, however distasteful as it may be, might be to start the Pro/Am weekends. This puts a huge strain on TDs and the clubs supporting them.

["Over the Hill" Bob]

I hear what Yose is saying and agree with Sam and Jeff. We know we are starting to see a problem, now what do we do about it? My first thought is that I am going to hate seperate weekends because I love seeing all the other action when I'm not playing my round. I'm old and change is something I fight all the time. But for disc golf's sake change is a necessary evil. I've actually thought about organizing a "retreat" of sorts and inviting a handful of disc golf old timers, like Yose, and the up and comers that are starting to run events. (Sorry for using you in the old timer reference Yose.) Sit around a fire and discuss the past, present, and future of disc golf.

What are they doing in other parts of the country? Is the growth causing the same issues, or has the growth caught up to them as it has here? WE might be a model for what the rest of the country will do in the future. A lot to think about for sure.

Bob

[LJ Jubner]

This is a great thread. The only way to have ghosts is to have them start on a short fast hole just after a longer slow hole. Division also need to be address Adv Ghost following and Am II won't work. Like SeaTac I would ghost on hole one, because 15-18 are long as well as the hardest holes.
13 is also a candidate because it's short between two long holes.


Here's a good question Say your field Max's at 72 with pretty even registration. If the course can handle it Could a TD have 5's for the Open players and 4's for the Am's. I don't think the Am's will be any slower than Open 5's + it bolsters the Open pot but not at the Am's expense.

[discrazy55]

I agree completely. I HATE five-somes and I can't stand ghost groups. The only time I can tolerate a ghost group is if there is really long hole that can accommodate both groups before the following group makes it to the tee pad. Otherwise it always feels like you're starting a tourney with a back-up.

As much as I hate to say it... we're reaching critical mass, and it looks like the only option, however distasteful as it may be, might be to start the Pro/Am weekends. This puts a huge strain on TDs and the clubs supporting them.

As a newbie, what is a ghost group?

[Flatroc]

Ghost groups refer to when an event's field is over the maximum and you add a group to a hole where there is already a group.(also called "shadowing")
Basically 2 and yes in some cases 3 groups on 1 tee pad. :rolleyes2:
Limiting the field to a number that works best for the gig will usually eliminate the chance of ghost groups. :biggrin2:

[papatart]

What are they doing in other parts of the country? Is the growth causing the same issues, or has the growth caught up to them as it has here? WE might be a model for what the rest of the country will do in the future. A lot to think about for sure.

Bob

What are they doing in other parts of the country? I know everyone hates me saying this over and over, but it is simple. what they do most other places is NOT have two-day B and C tier events. While the event will be played on both days of the weekend, the divisions only play one day (two rounds). This allows the TD to still do everything on one weekend, have more volunteers, allow twice the number of people to play and have even more people show up as many can play one day on the weekend but not both.

I just talked to a friend in Michigan and once again they had a HUGE turnout to their event in Lansing, MI. They had 75 on Saturday and 92 on Sunday. It was a B Tier and two rounds per day. If memory serves me right they use a 21 hole course so only one third of the course had fivesomes on Sunday. The point here is that 167 people showed up for a "one-day" event that was a B tier. The other fun thing they do is put Intermediate and Pro Masters on Saturday and Advanced and Open on Sunday. That way, for those who do want to play both days and can, it is a fun way to see if they can move up or see how they would fair in the upper division.

They do this all over the country to help with the growing number of players and the ability to keep it on one weekend. I know that many people out here in the Northwest feel that the events have to be two days or nobody will come to them and nobody will travel to them. While true that you may lose some travelers, you will gain many more local players that can only play one day on the weekend. Further, with the amount of events in each state (WA and OR) the travelling has dwindled down to a very few people. These folk remind me of myself when I first started and I had now problem being in Chicago on Saturday and St Louis on Sunday because I was younger, single and a disc golf junkie.

Five hour drive for a one day B-tier? No problem then. Give up an entire weekend and maybe skip a day of work for a two day B Tier at my local park? In this climate of the economy and now with a family, I'll skip it and wait for a local one day event....

Rather than be a model, it might be best to look at proven models in areas of the country where disc golf has been a much larger sport for a much longer time. They have been over the potholes already and know how to make it work for many more people than we have out here.

Later,
Scott Papa
Team Diacraft
Instructional Editor DiscGolfer Magazine

[Scott]

As a newbie, what is a ghost group?

Great question.

A ghost group is a 19th group on an 18 hole course. At the start of a tournamnet, each group usually starts on a different hole (known as a shotgun start).

Let's say there is a foursome starting on every hole, and two groups on hole 7. At the start of the tournament, the first group on hole 7 plays. When they have holed out, the ghost group plays. When they have holed out, the group that started on hole 6 plays.

[Sam]

I would think putting the Advanced and the Open fields on the same day would limit the number of people who want to step up and play both rather than expand it. I couldn't see playing Intermediate and then playing Open on consecutive days as being appealing for many. Advanced and then Open seems more feasible to me.

[NWDiscer]

I would think putting the Advanced and the Open fields on the same day would limit the number of people who want to step up and play both rather than expand it. I couldn't see playing Intermediate and then playing Open on consecutive days as being appealing for many. Advanced and then Open seems more feasible to me.



I think he is talking about the Pro Masters being able to play both days or an Int player moving up

[Sam]

I understand that. If Pro Masters had a field anywhere close to Advanced that would be a great idea. As there usually aren't more than a fistful of Pro Masters, though, this seems like a bad idea.

[SMOKIN JOE]

i don't believe in ghost groups,,especially at venues that have plenty of room to add a hole or two
waiting at every hole really sucks,getting done half hour after someone else who wasn't put in the middle of the jam is an unfair advantage
fivesomes don't work that well either for the higher scoring groups,limit fivesomes to adv. and open groups,
it's still awesome to have these kinds of problems instead of the ones in the past like, will we have enough baskets to set up course,will there be anyone else in my division, will we have more than forty:cool2:

[snap7times]

More holes or more courses... one day tournaments are boring... :)

[keys]

What about tee times? I thought tee times were one way to get larger fields through the course.

[Bullseye]

What about tee times? I thought tee times were one way to get larger fields through the course.

Regardless of division, fivesomes always suck. Period. I hate them. :)

Tee times work very well, but it is much more labor intensive to institute them properly.

Jeff

PS: Did I mention I hate fivesomes? :)

[Tim]

I agree, adding holes, or multiple courses is the best first step for larger fields. I've never played with a ghost group, but that just seems like its setting up for an inevitable cluster**** along the way. I much prefer playing in foursomes to fivesomes, but since the majority of the WA series tourneys have been 5-somes, I guess I've kinda gotten used to it, and don't find it to be horrible. That's not a bad concept of limiting 5 somes to the more advanced players.

As far as splitting an event into 2 tourneys, i think splitting into separate weekends should only be done for A-tiers. Having a tourney split across weekends would be a real PITA for any traveling golfers, especially if a regular group has multiple divisions in it. For instance, I play Adv., but regularly travel with Open and/or Int. players, depending on how the event is split up, we'd likely have to split our group up too. I've always liked the idea that Scott's talked about, I'd like to play in an event like that. Heck, if we can get Terrace up to tourney standards during the season, I'd consider doing such a thing myself. As to Sam's comments about which divisions play on what days, I think compelling arguments could be made in either direction.

[Scott]

One thing that hasn't been discussed yet - more tournaments.

We always bitch and moan about two tournaments being on the same date, but it does allow more to play.

[Chuck Kennedy]

They put Open and Intermediate on one day and Advanced and Pro Masters on the other day so Adv and MPM can play Open the other day and Int can play Adv the other day.

[Dave Pittman]

I just talked to a friend in Michigan and once again they had a HUGE turnout to their event in Lansing, MI. They had 75 on Saturday and 92 on Sunday. It was a B Tier and two rounds per day. If memory serves me right they use a 21 hole course so only one third of the course had fivesomes on Sunday. The point here is that 167 people showed up for a "one-day" event that was a B tier. The other fun thing they do is put Intermediate and Pro Masters on Saturday and Advanced and Open on Sunday. That way, for those who do want to play both days and can, it is a fun way to see if they can move up or see how they would fair in the upper division.

Some may see this as an improvement but I sure don't. I would much rather play three rounds over two days at two of the best courses in the state. It really isn't allowing more player's to play either.

Michigan 167 players (less if any play both days) play two rounds for the weekend. GNO at Whistler's 160 players will play three rounds for the weekend. Celebration 08 at Dexter 159 players played three rounds for the weekend.

David

[Sam]

They put Open and Intermediate on one day and Advanced and Pro Masters on the other day so Adv and MPM can play Open the other day and Int can play Adv the other day.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! :cheers:

[Chuck Kennedy]

Where courses aren't too far apart, they have simultaneous B-tiers on the same weekend so you can play one or both B-tiers. Divisions in Pool X play Course A on Sat while Pool Y plays Course B. Payouts for Pool X for Event A and payouts for Pool Y in Event B are handled Sat night with a party. Then on Sunday, Pool X plays Course B and Pool Y plays Course A with payouts Sunday night. This way, those used to traveling some distance for a two day B-tier can still get four rounds of golf if they wish. Yes, it's two entry fees but also two payouts. And when you consider your travel cost can easily be more than your entry fee, it's more cost-effective this way. Look at the Tower Ridge and Wakanda events in May 2007 on the PDGA site to see an example. They haven't done it the past two years because one of the TDs retired.

[all2common]

One thing that hasn't been discussed yet - more tournaments.

We always bitch and moan about two tournaments being on the same date, but it does allow more to play.

I feel like there is more than enough tournaments to get your fill this season. Between the King of the Mountain Series, the NW Series, Washington Series and the Oregon Series...whew! Tons o' golf! So much so that, you could play a tournament almost every weekend through the summer.

[Magilla]

What are they doing in other parts of the country? I know everyone hates me saying this over and over, but it is simple. what they do most other places is NOT have two-day B and C tier events. While the event will be played on both days of the weekend, the divisions only play one day (two rounds). This allows the TD to still do everything on one weekend, have more volunteers, allow twice the number of people to play and have even more people show up as many can play one day on the weekend but not both.

I just talked to a friend in Michigan and once again they had a HUGE turnout to their event in Lansing, MI. They had 75 on Saturday and 92 on Sunday. It was a B Tier and two rounds per day. If memory serves me right they use a 21 hole course so only one third of the course had fivesomes on Sunday. The point here is that 167 people showed up for a "one-day" event that was a B tier. The other fun thing they do is put Intermediate and Pro Masters on Saturday and Advanced and Open on Sunday. That way, for those who do want to play both days and can, it is a fun way to see if they can move up or see how they would fair in the upper division.

They do this all over the country to help with the growing number of players and the ability to keep it on one weekend. I know that many people out here in the Northwest feel that the events have to be two days or nobody will come to them and nobody will travel to them. While true that you may lose some travelers, you will gain many more local players that can only play one day on the weekend. Further, with the amount of events in each state (WA and OR) the travelling has dwindled down to a very few people. These folk remind me of myself when I first started and I had now problem being in Chicago on Saturday and St Louis on Sunday because I was younger, single and a disc golf junkie.

Five hour drive for a one day B-tier? No problem then. Give up an entire weekend and maybe skip a day of work for a two day B Tier at my local park? In this climate of the economy and now with a family, I'll skip it and wait for a local one day event....

Rather than be a model, it might be best to look at proven models in areas of the country where disc golf has been a much larger sport for a much longer time. They have been over the potholes already and know how to make it work for many more people than we have out here.

Later,
Scott Papa
Team Diacraft
Instructional Editor DiscGolfer Magazine


Thats just wonderful Scott. BUT we already get 160+ at the current events.
What difference would there be if they were 2 seperate 1 day events.
The field would still be limited to the same number of players since you are only playing 2 rounds. 90 per is OUT seeing how NO ONE here wants to play in 5 somes.

Our issue here is similar to what happened in NorCal MANY years ago.
Its called "GROWTH"

A 2 Day Am Only event WILL FILL with 160 players EVERY TIME.

The solution is seperate PRO and AM weekends in certain cases, especially where there is only 1 course to be played. IE, Whistlers & Dexter

:cheers:

[RonTheWhip]

Shhh...I'm running an Am only series in the summer.

I don't mind groups of five, but I know Oregon hates it. Mulitple course venues are the answer. Single course venues should have seperate weekends. Accomodate as many players as you can without adding ghost groups on too many holes. If Embree had stuck to his guns at the EC two years ago, I wouldn't have played and gotten my first pro win! Let the people play...within reason.

[snap7times]

I think Whistlers would be awesome with 22-24 holes... 4x22 = 88 / 4x24 = 96. 3 rounds of 24 holes would actually make it like 4 rounds of 18, but you are able to prevent ghost groups and 5somes. Tee times only work if you want everyone to do one round per day. With 3 rounds per day as GNO will do, have to do shotgun start. However, if holes are added, the 1st round of the day has to start earlier to make up for the added hole playing time. I personally would just add howevermany holes to Whistler's to rid of the 5somes and ghost groups. So if there are 160 players, 80ish to a flight. That means 20-21 holes. Not hard to add 2-3 holes.. Ideas ideas... ohh cool butterfly...

[Tim]

Thats just wonderful Scott. BUT we already get 160+ at the current events.
What difference would there be if they were 2 seperate 1 day events.
The field would still be limited to the same number of players since you are only playing 2 rounds. 90 per is OUT seeing how NO ONE here wants to play in 5 somes.




That's great if you have 2 courses to use. I think Scott's example works for smaller sized courses that don't have a convenient neighbor nearby. Case in point, my home course Terrace. The closest usable courses are ~45 min. away. For the tourney last year, I was able to squeeze in 2 extra holes last year, and was able accommodate 100 players, with 5 somes. Following Scott's way, I could use the same layout and accommodate 160 players w/4 somes.

[GettinBetter]

Tee times would be the best solution!

Keep the 2-day format
Keep 4 to a group.

More work yes, but possible more money (maybe charge a $5 dollar fee for this format to accomodate more players).

[snap7times]

Tee times would be the best solution!

Keep the 2-day format
Keep 4 to a group.

More work yes, but possible more money (maybe charge a $5 dollar fee for this format to accomodate more players).

Where is the logic to support that tee times would be the best format to get 160 players 3 rounds in? If you started at 8am, by the time the 1st flight final group tees off hole one, it would be 10:40 AM. By the time the 2nd flight final group teed off the 1st hole it would be 1:20PM, so the final group of the 3rd flight would tee off at 4PM?? imagine the rush on the TD and the staff to get the tee times ready for the 3rd flight. Say the guy in the last group of the first flight does the worse, that means he gotta play the first card of the 3rd flight, where is his break in between? Tee times do not work for getting 2 rounds in one day.

[papatart]

Chuck, thanks for fixing my error. I realized what I had written about the division of divisions too late and wasn't able to get back until today. Muchas gracias my Minnesota amigo.

Past that, there are so many other things that could use a response...

Tee times do not save time as you have to wait for the last group to come in to reshuffle if you are doing more than one round per day. The only real reason to do tee times is that you want more than 18 groups in an event. If that is the case then you are going to have a much longer round than fivesomes in a shotgun start.

People keep saying that two round events are bad. I really wonder if it is just that folks haven't played enough of them. I would venture to say that very little movement happens in placing in the third round (or the final nine round). Also, knowing that you have only two rounds makes your focus that much keener as you know that there are less holes to deal with so you better make every shot count.

Also, there is the other thought of added holes. In ball golf, I have read that courses were many different lengths in number of holes, but the number 18 was settled on due to the fact that after this amount most players lost focus and stopped playing their best golf. While we are not the exact same, I can relate to this thought on our 24 and 27 hole courses.

Two (or more) day events are awesome, but in moderation. I deal with many people out at our course (Dalaiwood) and know that most of the disc golf population are not the hard core disc golfers, but people who enjoy the sport for a fun time with family and friends. I also know that we would be able to have many more novices and juniors (especially juniors) join our events if they didn't have to dedicate their entire weekend to it. These people are definitely the future of the sport if we could just help them get involved. One day events would help immensely.

The other way that the split day helps, is that it gives the true tourney player an opportunity to give to the sport. The day that you are not playing, help out with the event. Maybe not all day, but maybe some get to show up and help start it and then go play at another course. Or do like we did in Joliet and help setup, get the beginners started, then go out on the course and help with spotting and showing them rules (not killing them for violations, but showing them the rules that need to be followed) so that as they progress they are complete players. Then after the event is over on Saturday, setup a best shot doubles that fills the course back up and gives all the people that have shown up a chance to practice for tomorrow. Hey, with that doubles round and the two tourney rounds you have just played three rounds of golf for money or prizes....just what you are asking for.


As for fivesomes, while not my favorite, I would much rather be waiting for one extra player in my group to throw than wait for hours between rounds (flights or tee time starts). On an 18 hole course it makes the difference between allowing 144 and 180 players when doing it the way I have suggested. If you have that need, then awesome, go for fivesomes as even the PDGA allows it in events.

Hey, in the end this was really just a suggestion to a problem. A suggestion that works in other parts of the country. I like the idea of getting more, and different, people out on the course. I like mulitple day events, but I want them to be special events, not just the monthly series event. The BSF is a great example of having the feel of a bigger event that warrants multiple days. Others, not so much. Great events, but nothing would be lost (except having fewer players) by having one less round and one less entire day used up for that one round of golf.

We'll see you out on the course (only if you're playing in a one-day-fivesome-only-event-heeheehee)!

Later,
Papa
Team Discraft
Instrucitonal Editor DiscGolfer Magazine

[Sam]

Almost all of my past movement in tournaments has been in my third round of a three round event. Well, positive movement, anyway. Don't know what it is but that last round is always my best.

[Chuck Kennedy]

If your last round is your best, then that means it would be in round 2 of a 2-round event wouldn't it? :wink2:

[JMan]

Having played only few tournaments over the last few years I've played both set ups, 2 rounds on day 1 another, and now at Sushi with 2 rounds of 29 over 2 days. Much prefer the later. 3 rounds is a pain, especially when you play a morning round then have 5 hours before the next, so much for momentum.

[TreeLove]

Please, no more 29-hole rounds. Or 30-hole rounds. It takes some of the fun out of it. Thanks.

[Sausage Fingers]

Please, no more 29-hole rounds. Or 30-hole rounds. It takes some of the fun out of it. Thanks.

Bagger! You LOVED 30 Holes BAM! and you know it!:pirate:

[TYVEK]

having played the sushi classic this year, it was cool to play 29 holes in a row, but i wouldnt want to do that all the time.

I think playing 2 rounds of 18 a day is WAAAYY better than 1 round of 27 or 29 holes. it is really nice to have a lunch break and some time to rest up and get you mind and body ready for another 18. when you are playing a big round like 27 or 29 holes, a person might start losing energy and really tank the last 9 holes or something like that. and then there is the issue of lunch! i want my lunch break!:biggrin2:


NO NO NO ghost groups!!! that is just bad news from the start!